What if we have ALL been 'duped'?

[ananda]

Nope, Just the OPPOSITE, in fact. Correct BELIEF is DEPENDENT upon TRUTH.

Blessings,

MEC

Belief is not dependent on truth ... as you pointed out, we have numerous belief system today, even within Christianity

 

[he-man]

I know, YOU know YOU haven't been. But what IF? Let's examine the EVIDENCE. If there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, then there is ONLY ONE TRUE understanding of that God as HE HAS REVEALED HIMSELF. He is certainly not the TRUTH if He reveals Himself ONE way to ONE person and a DIFFERENT way to another.

You miss the point!
Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and to whom the Son will reveal.

We are told at one point that it is IMPOSSIBLE to follow TWO masters. But in the reality of the situation, HE NEVER EVEN KNEW THEM. They were 'workers of inequity'. And if He never knew THEM, then that means that THEY NEVER KNEW HIM. They were 'just using His NAME'.

WOW! Now why would he say that?
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Now why would he say that?
Notice the difference in the use of the word, "LORD" when applied to God and when applied to Christ.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord [[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]&#948;&#949;&#963;&#960;&#959;&#964;&#949;&#962;[/FONT][/FONT] <G1203>] God, and our Lord [[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]&#954;&#965;&#961;&#953;&#959;&#962;[/FONT][/FONT]
<G2962>] Jesus Christ.

Do I BELIEVE that I LOVE God? Sure. Do I believe I KNOW God. Absolutely. But do I LIVE UP to ALL that the Bible offers that is REQUIRED to be able to answer EITHER of these questions in TRUTH? NOT EVEN CLOSE.

LISTEN carefully: Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the sign that the things not seen are true.

Rom 3:10 As it is said in the holy Writings, There is not one who does righteousness;

With Christ WE are only deemed as 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

So my point is: what IF? What IF in the two thousand years since Christ, we, the WORLD as a WHOLE, has been DUPED, (fooled by Satan), into BELIEVING that which is utterly FALSE? For Satan's most proficient weapon against us is DENIAL. Teaching us to DENY the truth and follow something "DIFFERENT" instead. Just like the manner in which he DUPED Eve in the garden.."Satan's most SUCCESSFUL TOOL that he uses against us is teaching us to DENY the TRUTH".

It is not a devil or "fallen angel" who has you duped, it is those many pastors who have destroyed God's vineyard and chose not to believe!

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard.

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Jer 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

They are following the BITS and PIECES that don't get 'in the way' of their TRUE LUSTS. Or is each merely being DUPED into BELIEVING that they are on the 'proper path'? I wonder.................... MEC

Yes by their own LUST and not by any satan/devil, etc. which is where many people are fooled by false teachers who wish to promote their tithes and gain much wealth and call it a "Love Offering".

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16Do not err, my beloved brethren

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

 

[Imagican]

he-man,

You and I have been through this in the PAST. And it only goes to PROVE the point that I made in the opening of this thread.

With ALL that is offered concerning the ENTITY called Satan, the Devil, Lucifer, Mammon, etc, etc, etc,,,,,,,,,,,, you have somehow been able to convince yourself that he doesn't exist. With ALL that the Bible explains so far as HIS POWER, HIS DOMINION, with ALL the detail offered concerning the Devil, YOU still insist that he does NOT exist.

The opening of the gospels DEALS with the temptation BY THE DEVIL of Christ in the dessert.

The man that was called LEGION was possessed of THOUSANDS of Satan's demons.

the LAST BATTLE will be a battle between Satan and Christ.

When Satan LOOSES this battle, he will be LOCKED UP for a thousand years, (separated from mankind).

With ALL this information offered in the Bible, YOU CONTINUE to insist that there is NO DEVIL.

And this is EXACTLY what I have offered on numerous occasion: Satan's most POWERFUL WEAPON is the ability to get people to DENY his very existence.

Now, for your sake, and anyone else reading this, (many don't even NEED to hear it but I'm going to offer it to ALL), let me state this clearly:

"I KNOW SATAN PERSONALLY". I LIVED FOR Satan for a large portion of my life. Or, let me rephrase that: I KNOW SATAN through his DEMONS. Either way, I am as SURE of the existence and power of Satan as I am of the existence of God and His Son.

And he-man, NO 'church' has taught me ANYTHING concerning his existence. I did NOT come to my understanding THROUGH ANY CHURCH. I didn't even come to my understanding through the Bible. I have come to my understanding through being HONEST with myself and OPENING MY EYES.

Some people have HEARD or READ about what it is like to suffer a Migraine Headache. But without having EXPERIENCED it, it is IMPOSSIBLE to actually UNDERSTAND. I suffered Migraine Headaches for many years and I KNOW EXACTLY what it FEELS like to suffer one. It is NO different with Satan so far as MY experience is concerned. I have not only READ or HEARD about Satan, I HAVE KNOWN HIM.

So, the only other explanation that you could offer is that the BIBLE is UTTERLY corrupted BY the Church to the point that EVERYTHING offered in it concerning Satan is fabricated. And I am just MAKING UP or what I say or am merely DELUDED. You choose to see it whatever way you choose. But I KNOW what I KNOW and it isn't from ANY book or what ANY 'Church' has TOLD ME. I KNOW what I KNOW through DIRECT EXPERIENCE.

But if you CHOOSE to insist that there is NO Satan, then THAT, my friend, is YOU offering that God has been UNABLE to preserve HIS WORD. And THAT, my friend, would perfectly illustrate EXACTLY what I have offered: There are those that PROFESS to be followers that don't even BELIEVE that God has the POWER to preserve His OWN WORD. And if you do not BELIEVE that God has the power to preserve His own Word, you certainly can't REALLY and TRUTHFULLY claim to be a Believer in and or FOLLOWER of His Word.

You OBVIOUSLY do NOT believe in the words offered in the Bible. So, from a Biblical perspective, you and I could not possibly come to any SEMBLANCE of agreement concerning OUR theology. And this is the EXACT POINT of this thread. How is it possible that you and I have read the SAME book but you don't even believe what it says concerning God's adversary?

You and I, (from reading what you post), often AGREE on certain aspects of our theology. But in the respect of the existence of Satan, you and I couldn't have a more DIFFERENT understanding.

And let me ask you this: If you DENY his very existence, what POWER do YOU have to defend yourself AGAINST HIM? How does one defend themselves against an ENEMY that they refuse to even acknowledge exists?

That is exactly how the Muslims are invading America. The MAJORITY of Americans don't even recognize them as THEIR ENEMY. Because of the DENIAL of the TRUTH, most Americans believe that Islam is JUST ANOTHER RELIGION. Refusing to accept the TRUTH that it is NOT 'just' another religion, but a complete and utter 'way of life' that DICTATES that their effort MUST BE to: convert, subdue or DESTROY any and everyone that does not FOLLOW this 'way of life'.

And let me offer this: I have NEVER ONCE made a Muslim MY enemy. It is the very concept of their 'way of life' that makes THEM choose to be MY enemy. For I have not labeled MYSELF an infidel. Me merely refusing to accept and follow THEIR way of life dictates that I am an infidel from THEIR perspective.

So too would I offer that any and everyone that denies the very existence of Satan is obviously under HIS INFLUENCE. For to deny his very existence is to put oneself in the position to be UNABLE to defend themselves against him.

Fault me if you will, but I am ONLY able to KNOW what it is that I KNOW. Other than that, I can offer nothing else. I am a FIRM believer that the Bible is the Word of God. PERFECT? It doesn't need to be. For it is ONLY THROUGH the Spirit that we come to any TRUE understanding of the words contained within it's pages. Not through trying to RE-TRANSLATE it or by trying to CHANGE or ALTER the words, but by placing our FAITH in The Spirit to GUIDE us to understanding regardless of the individual words or their meanings. And THAT is HOW I have come to MY understanding. NOT through trying to make the Bible FIT what I CHOOSE to believe, but by BELIEVING what has been revealed through The Spirit.

Can I PROVE any of this? Don't NEED to. The obviousness is clear to those that UNDERSTAND. To the rest, I don't know what else to offer. Except the CONCEPT that we have ALL been duped into a FALSE understanding of the TRUTH. For if we all KNEW the truth, then at least SOME would be FOLLOWING in TRUTH. I haven't MET ONE YET. Only those that SAY they are followers. But when witnessing their WALK, I have YET to meet ONE who's WALK reflects the TRUTH. Only what they SAY, but what they DO? Not even ONE that is CLOSE.

James 2:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.


So, when compelled to JUDGE the works of those whom I have met throughout my ENTIRE LIFE, I have YET to meet ONE that I could judge according to RIGHTEOUSNESS by their 'works' ALONE. Many TALK 'a good game', but when you get to actually KNOW them, their WORKS certainly do not MATCH their TALK.


And BEFORE anyone starts trying to tell me about 'judgement':


1 Corinthians 2:15
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I have to ask then:

Have you found two people ANYWHERE that are in utter agreement in their theology? And if so, could you direct me TO them? For you could not IMAGINE what a refreshing experience it would be to MEET two people that are in utter agreement concerning the Bible or God or Jesus. I haven't even been able to find two people that are EVEN CLOSE.

Blessings,

MEC

I would think more than a couple could be found in One Body section of CF, as well as a few other similar denominational threads. Where you will not find two are in sections like UD where the individuals holding such beliefs are the only authority (guided by the Spirit of course ).

In submitting to a greater teaching Authority than myself (or my own sense of where the "Spirit" guides me), especially where the leadership has bothered to document in detail our beliefs, I do find there is comfort in the uniformity of that. Again, I will admit not all Catholics are aware of all that teaching authority provides them, and certainly some proclaiming to be Catholics are confused about what that means - there are still many more that perfectly whiling to admit they may not know the answer but can find it if there is one in the Catechism.

 

[Imagican]

2 Timothy 3


3 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.


Notice this: "ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL SUFFER PERSECUTION".


Which among us is being PERSECUTED for living godly in Christ Jesus? I don't personally know of ANYONE. I know there are 'places' in the world where other religions persecute anyone that CLAIMS to be a 'Christian'. But they are NOT being persecuted for LIVING their lives in a GODLY MANNER in Christ Jesus. They are being persecuted simply for SAYING they are 'Christians'.


But that is MOOT. For the word says ALL that live godly according to Christ Jesus, not SOME. Yet the MAJORITY of 'Christians' are ACCEPTED by this 'world' as just 'other people'. I don't SEE the persecution of the 'churches' as the words above would indicate.



Funny, but even with ALL this warning, (and this is ONLY a small BIT), many seem confident that the 'Churches' are FULL of faithful followers. And no wonder. For many of the 'Churches' TEACH that ALL one NEEDS to DO to BE a TRUE follower is SAY that they BELIEVE.


You know, there was a time not that long ago when the 'Churches' actually TRIED to teach the truth. But the congregation got TIRED of hearing their FAULTS and turned to 'churches' that only spoke 'NICE THINGS'. They turned to 'churches' that were PEOPLE PLEASERS more than GOD pleasers. So it's NO MORE the 'churches' fault than it is the people that LED the 'churches' to DELIVER what their itching ears desired to HEAR.


We have an example. There was a 'time' when God decided to destroy ALL the wicked and chose ONE man to 'start over'.


Do you REALLY think that it's going to be DIFFERENT when God destroys this Earth COMPLETELY? Do you REALLY 'think' that He's going to destroy the GOOD along with the EVIL? Let us determine the answer to this by reading and understanding THESE WORDS:


Genesis 18:


23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?



32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.


Hmmmm......................If God would not destroy the wicked THEN for the sake of ten righteous, do you think that it would be ANY different NOW? Has He 'changed'?


So, with this concept in mind, when it comes time to destroy this Earth, do you REALLY THINK that God is going to destroy the RIGHTEOUS along with those that are EVIL? And if the ENTIRE WORLD isn't CORRUPT, why would He choose to destroy it in the FIRST PLACE? Where are we NOW? In the picture we have illustrated about 'the end', where are we NOW? And IF we are as CLOSE as MOST believe, what does that indicate about the STATE of the hearts of those LIVING on this planet? If God isn't going to destroy the RIGHTEOUS along with the UNRIGHTEOUS, what does that indicate about the STATE of the hearts of those that will SUFFER the END of this World as we know it? Obviously it will not BE for the sake of the RIGHTEOUS that this Earth will be destroyed.


Blessings,


MEC

 

[Norah63]

Jesus said He is the truth. We as His earthly body are a reflection of Him.
If our reflection of the truth doesnt please you, then show us your need.
Perfection ism is in all of us to some degree, its a cross to bear.
Paul said now we see thru a glass darkly, something like that.
Jesus is working our salvation out of us a day at a time, be patient, the end product will be beautiful
I hear your heart Imagican, you always give us much to consider.
I also long for the day of His appearing when we will be of one heart and one mind.

 

[he-man]

How is it possible that you and I have read the SAME book but you don't even believe what it says concerning God's adversary? And let me ask you this: If you DENY his very existence, what POWER do YOU have to defend yourself AGAINST HIM? How does one defend themselves against an ENEMY that they refuse to even acknowledge exists?

Lam 3:37 Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?
38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Satan: Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," being applied (1) to an enemy in war (I Kings v. 18 [A. V. 4]; xi. 14, 23, 25), from which use is developed the concept of a traitor in battle (I Sam. xxix. 4); (2) to an accuser before the judgment-seat (Ps. cix. 6); and (3) to any opponent (II Sam. xix. 23 [A. V. 22]).

The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or "sons of God," Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress.

He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence no more than by the presence of other beings before the face of God. This view is also retained in Zech. iii. 1-2, where Satan is described as the adversary of the high priest Joshua, and of the people of God whose representative the hierarch is; and he there opposes the "angel of the Lord," who bids him be silent in the name of God.

In both of these passages Satan is a mere accuser who acts only according to the permission of the Deity; but in I Chron. xxi. 1 he appears as one who is able to provoke David to destroy Israel. The Chronicler (third century B.C.) regards Satan as an independent agent, a view which is the more striking since the source whence he drew his account (II Sam. xxiv. 1) speaks of God Himself as the one who moved David against the children of Israel.

Since the older conception refers all events, whether good or bad, to God alone (I Sam. xvi. 14; I Kings xxii. 22; Isa. xlv. 7; etc.)
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13219-satan

And revenge was to be handled by God alone, not by the hands of men. For it is ONLY THROUGH the Spirit that we come to any TRUE understanding of the words contained within it's pages. Cyclopedia of Bibical Theoligical, and Ecclesiastical Literature, Prepared by the Rev John McClintock, DD, and Dr.James Strong, STD author of Strong's Concordance.

What does Job say in regard to who inflicted all his woes?
Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Job 27:22 For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand.

Regarding the serpent it is to go beyond what the Bible says to say the seprent was anything other than an adversary used to test Eve anymore than the Angel of God as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known .

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The idea that any thing operated without God's hand is POLYTHEISTIC and beyond the concept of Monotheism.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these.

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Many TALK 'a good game', but when you get to actually KNOW them, their WORKS certainly do not MATCH their TALK. MEC

Works are good but if they lack FAITH they are to no avail. Works without faith is DEAD.
That means if you have no FAITH you are among the ungodly DEAD.

For me, however I press on:
Phil 3:12 Not as though I had already taken [the prize], or were already complete; but I run [in the race], if so I may take that, for which Jesus the Messiah took me.

13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize of victory of the call of God from on high, by Jesus the Messiah.

 

[BukiRob]

The Bible specifically states that Jesus is the Word, so how can we all "believe" in Him (Word) and view the Word so differently? The fact is there are over 30 or 40 ( I forget exactly) THOUSAND "Christian" Denominations or groups of belief. The fact is that only ONE can be correct. Straight is the gate...

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God.

Now Im going to really bake your noodle .... What word is John speaking of?

Consider that the earliest dates of NT scripture is between 50-51 CE I Thessalonians (c. 51) (or possibly Galations which may be c. 50-there is some controversy over the dating of Galatians. (Home :: Orthodox Christian Information Center Daniel Lieuwen) The NT we have today was not cannonized and regarded as scripture until well towards the 3rd century CE.

There is ample evidence that the writers of the NT were aware that they were writing scripture. HOWEVER, when one examines Johns opening to his gospel it is clear that he is not speaking about the NT!

This of course will (or should!) cause the believer to see the Hebrew Scriptures (AKA Old testament) in a RADICALLY different light....

 

[sarxweh]

Two thoughts:

1. It's IRONIC that you are posting about how no one agrees with YOUR idea of "dupedness" when the conspiracy is that no two people agree... Think about it.

2. One of my favorite ideas in reading C.S. Lewis is his thought that Christians branch out as they grow in Christ, becoming more and more distinct from one another as they move and live (especially after death throughout eternity). Like a tree growing with no two branches alike (organically) while taking their life from the trunk - who is Christ.


Subjection:
"enter through the narrow gate - Christ"

Subjectivism:
"enter through the gate - my opinion"

But I DONT disagree with YOU. I find it hard to get along with my own wife... Why? Probably because I'm UGLY and I'm hard to PLEASE. And I keep trying to get her to enter LIFE through the narrow gate of my opinion of all her shortcomings... wait a minute--

 

[Hillsage]

Two thoughts:

1. It's IRONIC that you are posting about how no one agrees with YOUR idea of "dupedness" when the conspiracy is that no two people agree... Think about it.

I might say 'welcome to CF with your post' It's really not just 'IRONIC' it's really kind of oxymoronic too...I think.

2. One of my favorite ideas in reading C.S. Lewis is his thought that Christians branch out as they grow in Christ, becoming more and more distinct from one another as they move and live (especially after death throughout eternity). Like a tree growing with no two branches alike (organically) while taking their life from the trunk - who is Christ.

IOW, having the same "mind" which is the "mind of Christ", and yet, all the while, not seeing clearly because of the immaturity of "Christ still being formed in you/us".

Subjection:
"enter through the narrow gate - Christ"

Subjectivism:
"enter through the gate - my opinion"

Objectivism...just get through it bro!

But I DONT disagree with YOU. I find it hard to get along with my own wife... Why? Probably because I'm UGLY and I'm hard to PLEASE.

Nah, that can't be it, because I'm good looking and still find it hard to get along with mine.

And I keep trying to get her to enter LIFE through the narrow gate of my opinion of all her shortcomings... wait a minute--

After 40+ I just give her permission to have her wrong opinion, and she gives me permission to have my wrong opinion. Now we're both happier...most of the time anyway.

 

[sarxweh]

WAIT! I got it. I'll just tell her she's been "duped". That'll snap her out of it

 

[SharonL]

What if we had been duped - we've lost nothing. Where as those who don't believe if they have been duped - they have lost everything for eternity.

 

[Hillsage]

What if we had been duped - we've lost nothing.

Amen...same thing I said in my first post here.

Where as those who don't believe if they have been duped - they have lost everything for eternity.

Thinking you 'know your right', is probably the biggest dupe of all IMO. If anyone even thinks they 'lost eternity' they were putting too much emphasis on 'there ability' and too little on 'His capability' IMO.

 

[Imagican]

I would think more than a couple could be found in One Body section of CF, as well as a few other similar denominational threads. Where you will not find two are in sections like UD where the individuals holding such beliefs are the only authority (guided by the Spirit of course ).

In submitting to a greater teaching Authority than myself (or my own sense of where the "Spirit" guides me), especially where the leadership has bothered to document in detail our beliefs, I do find there is comfort in the uniformity of that. Again, I will admit not all Catholics are aware of all that teaching authority provides them, and certainly some proclaiming to be Catholics are confused about what that means - there are still many more that perfectly whiling to admit they may not know the answer but can find it if there is one in the Catechism.

Doc,

the TRUTH is, I have found that among the Catholic Church, there are as MANY that do NOT agree with or even UNDERSTAND what it IS that they profess to BELIEVE as ANY other denominations, or even ALL the denominations COMBINED.

For I have met MANY Catholics that have NEVER EVEN READ THE BIBLE, just as I have met many of just about every denomination that have NEVER EVEN READ THE BIBLE. Yet the Catholic Church of history, STANDS OUT in a manner that is DIFFERENT than the REST of the denominations: it is the ONE denomination that would use the threat of DEATH to all who opposed her.

Just read the responses of the Catholics on this ONE forum to the issue of TRINITY. Every SINGLE person that has made statements concerning their attempt to JUSTIFY 'trinity' differ. The only persons that seem to be able to come to ANY SORT of agreement concerning 'trinity' are those that REFUSE to accept it.

And just LOOK at the differences between the Catholic Church and the Protestants.

And then compare what the Catholics believe to what is offered in the Bible.

Then there are the Mormons that believe their 'church father' was led by an ANGEL to some GOLDEN tablets that he needed MAGIC SPECTACLES in order to TRANSLATE HIEROGLYPHICS into THEIR BIBLE. Yet NO ONE has EVER SEEN the 'golden tablets' that were used in the translation. This was also a 'guy' that believed that he had TWO MAGIC rocks that he actually gave NAMES to. I know, sounds more like a FAIRY TALE than anything resembling TRUTH, huh?

Then there are those that don't even UNDERSTAND what the word TONGUE means. And those who focus on BAPTISM as being some 'MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE'. And then those that believe that they are SPECIAL: being chosen from the beginning to be saved while the rest of the world is LOST.

I could go ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND.................

And the TRUTH IS: ALL of these IDEAS or CONCEPTS CANNOT BE THE TRUTH. For each contradicts ALL OTHERS. For EACH has a 'statement of faith' that SEPARATES themselves from ALL OTHERS. And EACH teaches that THEY are the ONLY ones that FOLLOW IN TRUTH. Yet they are ALL DIFFERENT.

So, the question that begs an answer is WHICH ONE? Which ONE is following IN TRUTH? My conclusion is THIS: I have YET to find THE ONE that follows in TRUTH when we compare what they SAY they believe and compare THAT to the Bible.

You would offer that it's the Catholic Church. But I couldn't disagree with you MORE. For the Catholic Church doesn't even profess the Bible to be the Word of God. They INSIST that it has been THE POPES that have had apostolic authority that can be traced all the way back to Christ.

But anyone that does even a cursory study of the HISTORY of the POPES can plainly SEE that there have been SOME POPES that have been UTTERLY CORRUPT. How does one propose to convince themselves that a REPRESENTATIVE OF CHRIST can BE CORRUPT?

Peter was NOT the apostle that 'went to the Gentiles in ROME', Paul was. Peter may have DIED in Rome, but he certainly wasn't the 'CHURCH LEADER' when he was there. So this ONE FACT destroys the ILLUSION that the POPES are descended from apostolic succession.

But YOU would tell me that YOU have found THE ONE 'church' that follows in TRUTH. Yet the ONLY evidence that you can OFFER is: "It is simply what you have CHOSEN to believe", even though it is in opposition to the Bible.

Do you HONESTLY BELIEVE that the Catholic Church was EVER given authority to MURDER those that opposed it? Do you HONESTLY BELIEVE that the Spirit of God LED the Catholics into the Crusades or INSPIRED the Inquisition?

I do NOT. I DO NOT believe that The Spirit of God, revealed through Christ in LOVE, could possibly have inspired behavior CONTRARY to the very CONCEPT of LOVE. And you would be hard-pressed trying to convince me that there is ANY offering of LOVE in trying to FORCE others to FOLLOW as YOU DO. That is certainly NOT the method that Christ introduced. A Bishop MUST be BLAMELESS. How much BLOOD is actually on the hands of the Popes of the PAST?

When Bush introduced the 'Homeland Security Act', it was voted in overwhelmingly. Then, months later, when interviewed, EVERY Senator I have read a response from said that IF they had actually READ the document they would have NEVER voted FOR it.

That is EXACTLY how I feel about the Catholic Church. If it's MEMBERS actually KNEW what it was that they profess to believe, most would LEAVE. And that is EXACTLY THE MANNER that the Catholic Church USED against it's followers: KEPT THEM IGNORANT of the TRUTH and ONLY introduced to the congregation what they WANTED them to believe. Refusing to even allow the Bible to be translated into languages that 'the people' could read. Actually putting those to DEATH that even tried to go against their will. "In the NAME of Christ".

So, you can SAY that there is mutual BELIEF in the Catholic Church, but from MY studies and discussions with those OF the Catholic faith, MOST don't even KNOW what it is that they PROFESS to believe. They are MERELY followers of what they are TOLD to believe.

I didn't open this thread through IGNORANCE. I tried my best to lay the ground work to SHOW that it is through MUCH TIME and MUCH STUDY and MUCH interaction with those of numerous denominations, ESPECIALLY those that profess to be Catholic, that I offered my CONCLUSION.

Then couple what I have experienced PERSONALLY with what the Bible offers concerning the 'last days', I believe that I have MORE than enough EVIDENCE for my conclusion to have VALIDITY.

Then consider that God would NEVER destroy the RIGHTEOUS along with the WICKED, it all adds up to 'a world that has become DUPED into FALSE belief systems'. AN ENTIRE WORLD, to the point that there may be ONLY TWO in the END that are STILL of the ELECT. Only TWO that are following in TRUTH before God decides it's TIME to destroy this world and ALL the wicked that reside here. WHAT ELSE could BE the deciding factor of WHEN it's TIME for this Earth to BE DESTROYED?

You can accuse me of being a skeptic or cynical. I couldn't care less what I am accused of. I KNOW THIS: I believe in the Bible and I BELIEVE that I have come to KNOW God through His Son. Does that mean I believe that I am SAVED? NOPE. For understanding does NOT equate BEHAVIOR. But I believe that UNDERSTANDING comes BEFORE behavior. In other words, one's WORKS cannot be manifest as RIGHTEOUS BEFORE there is UNDERSTANDING. And we have been COMMANDED to:

Matthew 5:

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Now it is merely a matter of determining whether you will choose to BELIEVE and FOLLOW these words, or if one is even CAPABLE.


We KNOW it's possible or the words would never have been offered. But WHICH among us is willing to ACCEPT and FOLLOW THEM? Haven't met ANYONE yet. Only SEEN it in the MOVIES or read about it in BOOKS.


Blessings,


MEC

 

[Imagican]

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God.

Now Im going to really bake your noodle .... What word is John speaking of?

Consider that the earliest dates of NT scripture is between 50-51 CE I Thessalonians (c. 51) (or possibly Galations which may be c. 50-there is some controversy over the dating of Galatians. (Home :: Orthodox Christian Information Center Daniel Lieuwen) The NT we have today was not cannonized and regarded as scripture until well towards the 3rd century CE.

There is ample evidence that the writers of the NT were aware that they were writing scripture. HOWEVER, when one examines Johns opening to his gospel it is clear that he is not speaking about the NT!

This of course will (or should!) cause the believer to see the Hebrew Scriptures (AKA Old testament) in a RADICALLY different light....

Of course 'the word' is not a reference to the NT. It is merely a reference to GOD's WORD period. You know, as God SPOKE Light into existence. God's Word is like OUR word. our WORD is representative of what WE ARE OR WHAT WE CHOOSE to OFFER others in communication. Jesus was THE representative of God's Word. He SAYS that the words He offered were NOT HIS OWN but GIVEN HIM by His Father: GOD. So Jesus was NOT 'The Word'. He was THE Representative OF God's Word.

And Jesus did NOT come offering a DIFFERENT Word. What He offered was FULFILLMENT of The Word. For God's Word was offered to teach us ONE THING: LOVE. And Jesus came to FULFILL The Word by offering THE example of what it was MEANT to teach.

So The Word was offered as a TEACHER. But upon the example offered, The Word was no longer NEEDED to be a 'teacher'. For the EXAMPLE was GREATER than The Word.

The example did NOT negate the Word, it FULFILLED it. What the word was meant to teach by those that HEARD IT and UNDERSTOOD it, the example FULFILLED in actually SHOWING us what the Word MEANT.

It's no different than someone trying to explain instructions verbally verses SHOWING them HOW to do it. The showing may well work for SOME, but the majority NEED someone to SHOW them how.

So there were SOME that understood what the Word was meant to teach from it's offering. But MOST missed the point. That is WHY God sent His Son to SHOW us what the Word was meant to TEACH.

The Word is as valid today as it ever was. It is STILL God's Word. But we NOW have something BETTER: God sending His OWN SON to SHOW us what the Word MEANS.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Norah63]

With every post I understand you better Imagican. Thanks for being so open, it is very refreshing in these forums.
Many do not want to approach the task of us being sons and daughters of God.
We know Jesus did a finished work and when He went to be with His Father and our Father, He promised the Holy Ghost to those who would yield or agree with the mission.
Would it be too prying to ask if you attend any type of congregation, if so what brand? Does any stand out as helpful in our Christian walk, as your tag line implies.

 

[Imagican]

Two thoughts:

1. It's IRONIC that you are posting about how no one agrees with YOUR idea of "dupedness" when the conspiracy is that no two people agree... Think about it.

2. One of my favorite ideas in reading C.S. Lewis is his thought that Christians branch out as they grow in Christ, becoming more and more distinct from one another as they move and live (especially after death throughout eternity). Like a tree growing with no two branches alike (organically) while taking their life from the trunk - who is Christ.


Subjection:
"enter through the narrow gate - Christ"

Subjectivism:
"enter through the gate - my opinion"

But I DONT disagree with YOU. I find it hard to get along with my own wife... Why? Probably because I'm UGLY and I'm hard to PLEASE. And I keep trying to get her to enter LIFE through the narrow gate of my opinion of all her shortcomings... wait a minute--

And what you offer SOUNDS GOOD, from a secular perspective, as I believe most of what C S Lewis TRULY penned. While the wisdom of this world, at times, SEEMS appropriate, when we COMPARE it to the Word of God, we find that it is something 'entirely DIFFERENT'.

I DO understand what you are offering. It is all too easy for us to view things from a myopic perspective, I don't believe that God's WORD is AS subjective as you present. It only BECOMES subjective to the READER. It was not OFFERED from a subjective perspective.

So it is all too obvious that MEN, choosing to BE subjective in their understanding and acceptance, have CHOSEN to SEE what it is that they SEE from a DESIRE to SEE it that way. Something in their HEARTS is what KEEPS them from actually SEEING what they read or understand AS OFFERED.

And that leads to the answer of HOW there have come to BE so MANY DIFFERENT understandings.

But, if God IS the TRUTH, there can ONLY BE ONE 'true' understanding of that TRUTH. For there cannot BE 'two' or MORE 'opposing TRUTHS'. Either something IS the truth, or it isn't. There is NOTHING subjectable about an ULTIMATE truth. If it is TRULY understood, it is understood in the EXACT same manner by ALL that TRULY understand.

When water gets COLD enough, it's components SLOW down to the point that it freezes. Some UNDERSTAND this TRUTH, some do NOT. But it is NOT something that is subjectable in UNDERSTANDING except to those that DO NOT UNDERSTAND. It is a PRINCIPLE that amounts to TRUTH. A PROVABLE principle that cannot be SUBJECTIVE or it wouldn't be the TRUTH.

It is NO DIFFERENT with God's Word. it is THE truth. And being the truth, if there is ANY subjectability found within it, it is due to the minds and hearts of MEN. God did NOT make ANY mistakes in The Word He offered. It is ALL the truth. So if someone finds it subjective or even CLAIMS that it is so, all that means is that they do NOT BELIEVE that it is THE TRUTH and that it is up to THEM to determine what they WANT the words to reveal.

But the Bible tells us that it is ONLY through THE SPIRIT that we are ABLE to come to an understanding of the TRUTH in God's Word. That the 'world in general' will find God's Word to be but FOOLISHNESS. That the world will NOT understand NOR accept His Word ON THEIR OWN.

So THERE is your subjectability: it is found in those that are trying to understand OUTSIDE of the guidance of God's Spirit. Those that believe THEIR wisdom is able to supersede that of God Himself. That they can simply READ His Word and understand it from their OWN perspective.

In essence, The Word is certainly subjectable to those that simply READ IT. But to those whom The Spirit reveals the TRUE MEANING of The Word, it is NOT subjectable. It is the TRUTH when understood AS God offered it. Otherwise it COULD have more than one or MANY 'different meanings' and therefore WOULDN'T be TRUTH.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Der Alte]

Of course 'the word' is not a reference to the NT. It is merely a reference to GOD's WORD period. You know, as God SPOKE Light into existence. God's Word is like OUR word. our WORD is representative of what WE ARE OR WHAT WE CHOOSE to OFFER others in communication. Jesus was THE representative of God's Word. He SAYS that the words He offered were NOT HIS OWN but GIVEN HIM by His Father: GOD. So Jesus was NOT 'The Word'. He was THE Representative OF God's Word.

And Jesus did NOT come offering a DIFFERENT Word. What He offered was FULFILLMENT of The Word. For God's Word was offered to teach us ONE THING: LOVE. And Jesus came to FULFILL The Word by offering THE example of what it was MEANT to teach.

So The Word was offered as a TEACHER. But upon the example offered, The Word was no longer NEEDED to be a 'teacher'. For the EXAMPLE was GREATER than The Word.

The example did NOT negate the Word, it FULFILLED it. What the word was meant to teach by those that HEARD IT and UNDERSTOOD it, the example FULFILLED in actually SHOWING us what the Word MEANT.

It's no different than someone trying to explain instructions verbally verses SHOWING them HOW to do it. The showing may well work for SOME, but the majority NEED someone to SHOW them how.

So there were SOME that understood what the Word was meant to teach from it's offering. But MOST missed the point. That is WHY God sent His Son to SHOW us what the Word was meant to TEACH.

The Word is as valid today as it ever was. It is STILL God's Word. But we NOW have something BETTER: God sending His OWN SON to SHOW us what the Word MEANS.

Blessings,

MEC

That is your understanding of "The Word." Here is the Jewish understanding. Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia, part of the article on “Memra.” &#1502;&#1488;&#1502;&#1512;/memra which in Aramaic means “word.” The Targums were Aramaic translations of the O.T., began during the Babylonian captivity about 700 BC.

In the below, which is only representative not comprehensive, there are at least eighty examples where the name &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;/YHWH was replaced, in the Targums, with” &#1502;&#1488;&#1502;&#1512;/memra.” When John, the Jew, said to his Jewish audience, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God.,” he was not saying anything strange or new.

Remember this is not a Trinitarian source, it is the Jewish Encyclopedia prepared by Jewish scholars documenting the historical faith, beliefs, and practices of the ancient Jews. Some interesting quotes from the below article, all from the Targums, before the Christian era, note the parallels with the N.T..

[1] “Deut 4:7 The Word brings Israel nigh unto God and [The Word] sits on [God’s] throne receiving the prayers of Israel.” cf. Re 3:21 Re 22:3, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

[2] “Isa 48:13 His Word has laid the foundation of the earth.” cf. John 1:3, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

[3] “Isa 64;13 So, in the future, shall The Word be the comforter.” cf. John 14:26, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

[4] “Zech 12:5 In The Word redemption will be found.” cf. Luke 21:28, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

[5] “Lev 22:12 My Word shall be unto you for a redeeming deity.” cf. Col 1:14, Heb 9:12, Heb 9:15, N.T. ca. 70 AD.​

More complete citations.

Jewish Encyclopedia Memra-In the Targum:

In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity.

Instead of the Scriptural "You have not believed in the Lord," Targ. Deut. i. 32 has "You have not believed in the word of the Lord"; instead of "I shall require it [vengeance] from him," Targ. Deut. xviii. 19 has "My word shall require it." "The Memra," [The Word] instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27). The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35). "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.). Not "God," but "the Memra [The Word]," is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there"). " I will cover thee with My Memra, [My Word] " instead of "My hand " (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22). Instead of "My soul," "My Memra [My Word] shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18). "The voice of the Memra, [The Word] " instead of "God," is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.). Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes "a sign between My Memra [My Word] and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12). Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4). His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. xxiii. 21; Deut. i. 30, xxxiii. 3; Targ. Isa. lxiii. 14; Jer. xxxi. 1; Hos. ix. 10 [comp. xi. 3, "the messenger-angel"]). The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. xlv. 12). The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. xxi. 23, xxii. 16, xxiv. 3; Ex. xxxii. 13; Num. xiv. 30; Isa. xlv. 23; Ezek. xx. 5; et al.). It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. vi. 6, viii. 21; I Sam. xv. 11, 35). Not His "hand," but His "Memra [His Word] has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. xlviii. 11; II Kings xix. 34). Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 90; II Kings xiii. 23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. xv. 1), and is with Moses (Ex. iii. 12; iv. 12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. x. 35, 36; Isa. lxiii. 14). It is the Memra, [The Word] not God Himself, against whom man offends (Ex. xvi. 8; Num. xiv. 5; I Kings viii. 50; II Kings xix. 28; Isa. i. 2, 16; xlv. 3, 20; Hos. v. 7, vi. 7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. v. 21, vi. 2; Deut. v. 11); through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. xlv. 25); with the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. xxii. 24, 27); in the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. xv. 6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xiv. 31; Jer. xxxix. 18, xlix. 11).

Like the Shekinah (comp. Targ. Num. xxiii. 21), the Memra is accordingly the manifestation of God. "The Memra [The Word] brings Israel nigh unto God and sits on His throne receiving the prayers of Israel" " (Targ. Yer. to Deut. iv. 7). . . So, in the future, shall the Memra [The Word] be the comforter (Targ. Isa. lxvi. 13): "My Shekinah I shall put among you, My Memra [My Word] shall be unto you for a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto My Name a holy people" (Targ. Yer. to Lev. xxii. 12).

The Memra is "the witness" (Targ. Yer. xxix. 23); it will be to Israel like a father (l.c. xxxi. 9) and "will rejoice over them to do them good" (l.c. xxxii. 41). "In the Memra [The Word] the redemption will be found " (Targ. Zech. xii. 5).

Jewish Encylopædia online​

 

[Imagican]

WAIT! I got it. I'll just tell her she's been "duped". That'll snap her out of it

Nope, TELLING her and CONVINCING her are TWO different things.

think about it.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

What if we had been duped - we've lost nothing. Where as those who don't believe if they have been duped - they have lost everything for eternity.

If you have been duped into a FALSE understanding that means that you can ONLY FOLLOW in a false manner.

Yet we have been instructed that we MUST serve in TRUTH and Spirit.

I guess is you have NOTHING TO LOOSE then LOOSING NOTHING doesn't really MEAN anything.

But if you had the CHANCE to gain EVERYTHING and didn't obtain it simply because you were DUPED into believing you could obtain it in an IMPOSSIBLE manner, you would certainly NEVER HAVE THE CHANCE to obtain that which COULD have been obtained.

But as the saying goes, what you don't MISS you don't really NEED, right?

Blessings,

MEC