What if we have ALL been 'duped'?

Imagican · Jul 30, 2014

Der Alter said:
That is your understanding of "The Word." Here is the Jewish understanding. Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia, part of the article on Memra. מאמר/memra which in Aramaic means word. The Targums were Aramaic translations of the O.T., began during the Babylonian captivity about 700 BC.

In the below, which is only representative not comprehensive, there are at least eighty examples where the name יהוה/YHWH was replaced, in the Targums, with מאמר/memra. When John, the Jew, said to his Jewish audience, In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God., he was not saying anything strange or new.

Remember this is not a Trinitarian source, it is the Jewish Encyclopedia prepared by Jewish scholars documenting the historical faith, beliefs, and practices of the ancient Jews. Some interesting quotes from the below article, all from the Targums, before the Christian era, note the parallels with the N.T..

[1] Deut 4:7 The Word brings Israel nigh unto God and [The Word] sits on [Gods] throne receiving the prayers of Israel. cf. Re 3:21 Re 22:3, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

[2] Isa 48:13 His Word has laid the foundation of the earth. cf. John 1:3, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

[3] Isa 64;13 So, in the future, shall The Word be the comforter. cf. John 14:26, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

[4] Zech 12:5 In The Word redemption will be found. cf. Luke 21:28, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

[5] Lev 22:12 My Word shall be unto you for a redeeming deity. cf. Col 1:14, Heb 9:12, Heb 9:15, N.T. ca. 70 AD.
More complete citations.

Jewish Encyclopedia Memra-In the Targum:

In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity.

Instead of the Scriptural "You have not believed in the Lord," Targ. Deut. i. 32 has "You have not believed in the word of the Lord"; instead of "I shall require it [vengeance] from him," Targ. Deut. xviii. 19 has "My word shall require it." "The Memra," [The Word] instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27). The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35). "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.). Not "God," but "the Memra [The Word]," is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there"). " I will cover thee with My Memra, [My Word] " instead of "My hand" (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22). Instead of "My soul," "My Memra [My Word] shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18). "The voice of the Memra, [The Word] " instead of "God," is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.). Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes "a sign between My Memra [My Word] and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12). Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4). His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. xxiii. 21; Deut. i. 30, xxxiii. 3; Targ. Isa. lxiii. 14; Jer. xxxi. 1; Hos. ix. 10 [comp. xi. 3, "the messenger-angel"]). The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. xlv. 12). The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. xxi. 23, xxii. 16, xxiv. 3; Ex. xxxii. 13; Num. xiv. 30; Isa. xlv. 23; Ezek. xx. 5; et al.). It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. vi. 6, viii. 21; I Sam. xv. 11, 35). Not His "hand," but His "Memra [His Word] has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. xlviii. 11; II Kings xix. 34). Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 90; II Kings xiii. 23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. xv. 1), and is with Moses (Ex. iii. 12; iv. 12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. x. 35, 36; Isa. lxiii. 14). It is the Memra, [The Word] not God Himself, against whom man offends (Ex. xvi. 8; Num. xiv. 5; I Kings viii. 50; II Kings xix. 28; Isa. i. 2, 16; xlv. 3, 20; Hos. v. 7, vi. 7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. v. 21, vi. 2; Deut. v. 11); through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. xlv. 25); with the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. xxii. 24, 27); in the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. xv. 6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xiv. 31; Jer. xxxix. 18, xlix. 11).

Like the Shekinah (comp. Targ. Num. xxiii. 21), the Memra is accordingly the manifestation of God. "The Memra [The Word] brings Israel nigh unto God and sits on His throne receiving the prayers of Israel" " (Targ. Yer. to Deut. iv. 7). . . So, in the future, shall the Memra [The Word] be the comforter (Targ. Isa. lxvi. 13): "My Shekinah I shall put among you, My Memra [My Word] shall be unto you for a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto My Name a holy people" (Targ. Yer. to Lev. xxii. 12).

The Memra is "the witness" (Targ. Yer. xxix. 23); it will be to Israel like a father (l.c. xxxi. 9) and "will rejoice over them to do them good" (l.c. xxxii. 41). "In the Memra [The Word] the redemption will be found " (Targ. Zech. xii. 5).

Jewish Encylopædia online

I don't SEE anything you offered refuting what I stated. You are simply TRYING to see it in a DIFFERENT manner that what you offered YOURSELF.

The Word of God IS God's Word. It was first delivered, according to the Bible, by God Himself. Then to Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, the prophets, etc, etc, etc, etc,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Then came God's own Son to not only DELIVER God's Word, but to offer THE very EXAMPLE of what God's Word was meant to TEACH. Or at least that is what the Bible offers if you READ enough of it to find understanding OUTSIDE of the miniscule minds of men that teach what THEY WANT to believe verses what is actually offered.

Jesus OPENLY stated that the Word was NOT HIS OWN. You can argue around the FACT as much as you please, but I can show you NUMEROUS examples in the Book of JOHN where He PLAINLY STATES this and DESTROYS any concept of HIM BEING the Word of God. If the words He delivered, The Word of God, were Christ, then it would be IMPOSSIBLE for Christ to STATE that the words were NOT HIS. If He WERE The Word, then the words He offered would most CERTAINLY be HIS OWN. That means that IF, as you propose, Jesus WERE God, then it would be IMPOSSIBLE for Him to SAY that the words He offered WERE NOT HIS OWN.

So this isn't really meant to be 'another' 'trinity' discussion, but a discussion about HOW there are SO MANY DIFFERENT beliefs in the SAME God. How no TWO people I have EVER met are in agreement in what they BELIEVE. You are trying to NIT PICK your way back into previous discussions that really have NOTHING to do with the topic.

Kind of like he-man. instead of discussing the topic, he wants to argue the existence of Satan. We've already BEEN THROUGH that argument or discussion. This isn't about that. But what it IS about is the DIFFERENCE between YOU believing in 'trinity' and others NOT. Or ME believing in Satan and others NOT. How can there be ONE truth if everyone believes something DIFFERENT? How can there BE a FUNCTIONING BODY if it's members don't even KNOW their PLACE? if the HEAD doesn't KNOW it's the head, how does the BODY function WITHOUT A HEAD?

Even your 'precious trinity', when discussed RIGHT HERE on the forums among OTHER BELIEVERS in it, the OTHER BELIEVERS are as quick to disagree with you as the NON believers. My point? Even among those that profess to be BELIEVERS, no TWO can come to AGREEMENT about WHAT they BELIEVE.

If there is but ONE TRUTH, how is it even conceivable that two people professing to BELIEVE in THAT truth have different understandings of it? THAT is the topic and THAT is THE question that I pose to YOU.

Blessings,

MEC

interpreter · Jul 30, 2014

Imagican said:
I know, YOU know YOU haven't been. But what IF? Let's examine the EVIDENCE.

I have been debating theology, (Bible based), on internet 'Christian Forums' for about 10 years or so. And in ALL these years, I have YET to find just TWO PEOPLE that are in agreement when it comes to what they BELIEVE according to the Bible.

Now that's TEN YEARS and coming in contact with literally HUNDREDS of different people, and EVERY ONE OF THEM with a DIFFERENT understanding when it comes to the Bible.

Yes, I have found that SOME have SOME common understanding, but NEVER have I found TWO people, out of TEN years and hundreds of people, not TWO individuals with the SAME theology.

How is that POSSIBLE? If ALL these are claiming to KNOW the SAME God through His Son, Jesus Christ, how is it even REMOTELY POSSIBLE that they are ALL following DIFFERENT understanding?

Unless, they, we, are ALL duped into a 'false sense' of KNOWLEDGE? Unless EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US is following something OTHER THAN what we BELIEVE we are following?

For it would ONLY STAND TO REASON that there would certainly be at least TWO persons following the SAME understanding if the whole concept is based on a SINGLE God with a SINGLE purpose.

If God is the same today as yesterday and tomorrow, HOW CAN there be SO MANY DIFFERENT understandings of this "ONE GOD"? In my opinion, it's an IMPOSSIBILITY. If there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, then there is ONLY ONE TRUE understanding of that God as HE HAS REVEALED HIMSELF. He is certainly not the TRUTH if He reveals Himself ONE way to ONE person and a DIFFERENT way to another.

So if we RULE OUT that which is IMPOSSIBLE and focus on what IS possible, the ONLY logical conclusion is that we are ALL WRONG. If there are not even TWO OF US able to come to 'the same' understanding, then obviously what we are ALL following is something 'other than the TRUTH'.

And here is HOW I believe it has taken place....................

Throughout the ENTIRE New Testament, Jesus and the apostles offered us a TON of instruction concerning MONEY. We are told at one point that it is IMPOSSIBLE to follow TWO masters.

We are also told that there would be MANY that would BRAG to Christ 'in that day' of all the wonderful 'things' they had done IN HIS NAME. But in the reality of the situation, HE NEVER EVEN KNEW THEM. They were 'workers of inequity'. And if He never knew THEM, then that means that THEY NEVER KNEW HIM. They were 'just using His NAME'.

We are told that the 'LOVE of money is THE ROOT of ALL EVIL'.

Let us examine what the word "MONEY" means.

It obviously isn't ONLY a reference to coins or pieces of paper. For pieces of paper weren't even USED as currency at the time of Christ.

We see that EVIL existed LONG before men began to create COINS. For there was a time that 'barter' was the ONLY form of trade.

So that means that the word 'money', as used in the Bible, means something much DEEPER than mere 'currency' so far as coins or paper.

What 'money' REALLY MEANS is WEALTH. Something of VALUE. ANYTHING of 'value'.

To the farmer it would be what he produced. To the laborer it would be his labor. To the King it would be His subjects and his dominion. To the Judge it would be HIS POSITION. To the artist, his art. To the doctor, his skill to heal. To the priest, his relationship to God.

The indication is that 'money' means nothing other than: that which we HOLD dear in our HEARTS. That which we LOVE. The 'thing' or 'things' that bring us pleasure or sustenance. Basically what we LIVE FOR.

So in this context, it could even mean GOD Himself. God could BE the ONE THING that someone holds MOST dear in their hearts to the point that even their very sustenance takes a BACK SEAT to their RELATIONSHIP with God.

And EVERY indication offered in the Bible is that we are SUPPOSE to place GOD FIRST in our heart, mind and soul. We are to LOVE God MORE than each other, more than the very air we breath. More than our families or children or even ourselves.

In 53 years, I can TRULY SAY that I have YET to meet a SINGLE PERSON that I BELIEVE loves God MORE than ANYTHING else. Not ONE PERSON who places GOD before EVERYTHING ELSE in their lives. And don't get me WRONG, I have included MYSELF in 'not a SINGLE PERSON'. For it is ONLY through my OWN understanding that I am able to offer what I am offering here.

Do I BELIEVE that I LOVE God? Sure. Do I believe I KNOW God. Absolutely. But do I LIVE UP to ALL that the Bible offers that is REQUIRED to be able to answer EITHER of these questions in TRUTH? NOT EVEN CLOSE.

In my 53 years I have met some people that I would call 'good people' and I have met MANY MORE that I would call 'bad people'. But in ALL the people I have EVER MET, when judging them according to RIGHTEOUSNESS as OUTLINED in the Bible, I have YET TO MEET A SINGLE ONE who's UNRIGHTEOUSNESS didn't outweigh their RIGHTEOUSNESS a thousand to ONE or MORE.

So my point is: what IF? What IF in the two thousand years since Christ, we, the WORLD as a WHOLE, has been DUPED, (fooled by Satan), into BELIEVING that which is utterly FALSE? We have been LURED into BELIEVING whatever we WANT to believe and have USED that as our means of justification? What if we have ALL 'fallen' that the EXACT same manner as Eve in the garden? We have allowed Satan to convince us that HE is God and that we can PICK and CHOOSE what we WANT to believe so far as the Bible is concerned. And our UNDERSTANDING of the Bible is based on what WE WANT to believe instead of what is actually offered?

It would certainly EXPLAIN why EVERYONE has a DIFFERENT belief system and no TWO are ALIKE. It would certainly explain WHY God is going to DESTROY the very EARTH itself and START OVER with a NEW Earth. It would certainly explain how in the END there are ONLY GOING TO BE TWO WITNESSES that the REST of the world is going to LOOK upon in disdain as they lay in the street. And it would certainly explain the current situation where EVERYONE believes that things should be THEIR WAY instead of THE way outlined in The Bible.

I can still remember my initial response to the movie 'The Matrix' when it first came out. Morpheus explaining to Neo in the beginning. And Neo's response when the ultimate truth was revealed. DENIAL. "LET ME OUT" he exclaimed when he actually realized what Morpheus was saying. "NO WAY. THIS JUST CAN'T BE". No different than the response will be HERE to the words I am offering. "NO WAY. This just CAN'T BE". And isn't that EXACTLY what Satan would LIKE our response to be if what I am saying is the TRUTH? For Satan's most proficient weapon against us is DENIAL. Teaching us to DENY the truth and follow something "DIFFERENT" instead.

Just like the manner in which he DUPED Eve in the garden, he convinced her to DENY the TRUTH of God and follow 'his' truth instead. By simply offering her her hearts desire, he was able to convince her that what God had offered didn't MATTER. Was able to convince her that what SHE WANTED was MORE important than what GOD wanted FOR her. Until her eyes were OPENED. It was ONLY THEN that she realized the mistake she had made.

But what if OUR eyes NEVER become OPENED enough to SEE the TRUTH?

And that is EXACTLY how I see EVERYONE I have EVER MET. Willing to alter whatever truth that's offered in the Bible in order to HAVE what they WANT. Doing whatever it takes to make the Bible FIT their DESIRES.

And that is WHY I believe every single person I have ever MET has a DIFFERENT understanding'. For everyone's DESIRES differ even if ever so slightly. And when they read the Bible, they IGNORE or alter those parts they don't LIKE and form their understanding based on their DESIRES instead of what is actually WRITTEN on it's pages. Once again, DENIAL of those parts they DON'T LIKE. So they simply ignore or alter them to suit themselves.

Now, BEFORE you attack my words through DENIAL, just remember what I have already stated, "Satan's most SUCCESSFUL TOOL that he uses against us is teaching us to DENY the TRUTH". For that is EXACTLY what he convinced Eve to DO in the garden. DENY the TRUTH of God and accept his truth instead. And the REASON was that HIS truth appeased HER desires more than the TRUTH as offered by God. Her flesh convinced HER that SHE deserved MORE. And Satan's encouragement was all it took to persuade her to DO exactly what she had been told NOT TO DO for the sake of her OWN flesh's desires.

And isn't that what EVERY ONE of us is DOING today? Trying to convince ourselves that we are righteous when almost EVERYTHING we DO is unrighteous? When we GIVE it is to make ourselves FEEL better about ourselves, (and that is according to those that DO give. How many will leave their 'churches' today and see someone begging for money and IGNORE THEM? Heck, how many have FAMILY members in NEED that they will REFUSE to help? How many have close friends that are struggling but won't lift a FINGER to help. Scared of GIVING UP any PORTION of their WEALTH in order to HELP those in NEED? But convincing themselves of their OWN righteousness).

So, TELL ME how WRONG I am. Tell me that YOU KNOW God and you are placing Him FIRST in your life. As you spend MORE time today watching TV than devotion to God or ANYONE in your life. Tell me that it is ME that is confused as you try DESPERATELY to convince me and others of your RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Nope. I believe that I have finally found the ANSWER I have been seeking for YEARS. The REASON that no TWO people I have EVER KNOWN are in agreement concerning God's Word is that that I have YET to meet TWO PEOPLE that are ACTUALLY following it. They are following the BITS and PIECES that don't get 'in the way' of their TRUE LUSTS.

I am a 'carpenter' by trade. And one of my skills is painting. And having done this for over thirty years, there is ONE thing that I have come to realize, EVERY shade of WHITE is DIFFERENT. Ten different manufacturers make ten DIFFERENT shades of WHITE. Even among their own brands, there may be five or six DIFFERENT shades of WHITE. But they ALL call their own blend: WHITE.

And if I were to show you any one of the different cans, you would look at it and say it's WHITE. But if I were to take two different cans and paint them next to each other on the same wall, you would then ask me, "Why did you use a DIFFERENT color on one side than the other. Yet EACH was LABELED 'WHITE'.

Matthew 7:

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Note that in this scripture it does NOT offer that there are MANY DIFFERENT paths. It states 'strait is THE gate and narrow is THE way which leadeth unto life................... THE gate and THE way. The use of the word THE is SINGULAR, not PLURAL.

My point? I have witnesses THOUSANDS of people who CLAIM to be 'followers' of Christ. Yet I have YET to meet TWO that followed in the SAME MANNER. They all CALL themselves 'Christians', but EACH follows a DIFFERENT path. Is that REALLY possible? Or is each merely being DUPED into BELIEVING that they are on the 'proper path'? I wonder....................

Blessings,

MEC

Millions have been duped into believing that the second coming is in the future. The second coming was in 312AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St.. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow.

Imagican · Jul 30, 2014

Norah63 said:
With every post I understand you better Imagican. Thanks for being so open, it is very refreshing in these forums.
Many do not want to approach the task of us being sons and daughters of God.
We know Jesus did a finished work and when He went to be with His Father and our Father, He promised the Holy Ghost to those who would yield or agree with the mission.
Would it be too prying to ask if you attend any type of congregation, if so what brand? Does any stand out as helpful in our Christian walk, as your tag line implies.

Norah,

Here is the TRUTH.

I have studied and visited MANY different denominations. I have found them ALL to be in error. For EACH has vowed to BELIEVE in what 'some man' proposed instead of simply following as LED by The Spirit.

Some have 'statements of faith' that would INDICATE that THEY believe they are somehow BOUND to follow SOME THINGS yet ignore others.

This doesn't even take into account that every time I read the News some PREACHER from some HUGE 'church' is being charged with lewd behavior or STEALING from the congregation.

I cannot JOIN a GROUP that I do NOT agree with. That would be the ULTIMATE form of hypocrisy. To be forced to PRETEND to agree with a group I DO NOT agree with would be 'playing a game' in MHO. Many CHOOSE this path, I do not. I would rather NOT GATHER AT ALL than to gather with those that I KNOW are not following the TRUTH. At least that way I'll have NO ONE to blame BUT MYSELF. The LAST thing I would desire is for someone to DRAG ME DOWN WITH THEM.

So I am a member of NO 'man made denomination'.

But how about this: either you, or someone else TELL me and CONVINCE me that there IS ONE DENOMINATION that IS following in TRUTH and maybe I'll RECONSIDER. For I would LOVE to be able to find 'a place' to join and share with God's Children. I just don't know WHERE to find them. I have LOOKED but so far haven't been able to FIND THEM.

The funny part is that some would rather GATHER than FOLLOW in TRUTH. Some are willing to find a place to 'enjoy' rather than FOLLOW. Some seem to SEEK someone to make them FEEL GOOD rather than TEACH THEM THE TRUTH. I have NO desire to 'play that game'.

And Norah, I have a testimony that doesn't FIT what I have heard from so many others. So either EVERYONE ELSE that can't come to any SORT of agreement is WRONG, or I am. I have NO problem accepting other's belief that it is ME that is WRONG. And let's replace the word WRONG with 'confused'. I don't BELIEVE that it's a matter of RIGHT or WRONG so much as the reality that most are merely CONFUSED. They READ one thing but choose to BELIEVE another. That's CONFUSION.

And God is NOT the 'author of confusion'. That means that there is ANOTHER god that IS. And THAT god is preparing the world for HIS arrival in the flesh. He is TEACHING the 'churches' to be EXPECTING Christ. That is WHO he is going to PRETEND to BE: Christ/God. At least that is what we have been warned of in the Bible. He is PREPARING the WORLD for HIS arrival. He is going to 'set himself up' AS Christ/God. So it MUST be THROUGH the 'churches' that this is TAKING place. For the REST of the world doesn't really CARE one way or another.

When we take this FACT into consideration, and then compare what we have been offered so far as the 'things that must come first', we can SEE that the time is NEARING when Satan is going to be manifest upon this Earth in the FLESH. And we have already been told that when he appears, the world is going to ACCEPT him AS God/Christ.

But what the 'churches' have been DUPED into believing is that they are WAITING for CHRIST to appear. Yet the BIBLE says that when Christ appears it is going to be like LIGHTENING as it crosses the SKY. That means His appearance is NOT going to be PHYSICAL as many are being led to BELIEVE they are WAITING on. That is SATAN leading the 'churches' to BELIEVE that when HE appears he is going to BE GOD/Christ.

Once again, let me offer this: I did not decide to offer this thread LIGHTLY. Much thought went into it BEFORE I made the decision to start it. And I already KNEW the opposition it would receive.

But let me offer this as well. EVER TIME God sent a SINGLE prophet to WARN His Children, NO ONE was willing to listen to a WORD they had to say except to use their words to CONDEMN them.

How man times did people pick up stones when Paul spoke? How often was Jesus forced to flee from one place to another? And how MANY had their heads separated from their bodies?

Do you HONESTLY believe that it is ANY DIFFERENT TODAY? Then I offer THIS:

Galatians 4:

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

and

2 Timothy 3 (KJV)

3 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Hmmmm................ First Paul admonishes us to KNOW THIS: then goes on to explain what it IS that he wishes for us to KNOW:

ALL that will LIVE GODLY 'in Christ Jesus' SHALL SUFFER PERSECUTION.

Maybe it is JUST ME. But I don't SEE the persecution. I don't SEE 'Christians' FOR LIVING GODLY IN CHRIST JESUS, being PERSECUTED. Churches are GROWING faster than EVER. Religion is BIGGER than EVER. But NO persecution?

That can ONLY lead to ONE conclusion: NONE of those PROFESSING to be followers are REALLY following in TRUTH. For IF THEY were, and they are NOT being PERSECUTED, then Paul's words are NOT TRUE. I believe that Paul's words are SIMPLE to understand and that they ARE the TRUTH. Some SAY they understand them but DENY the very POWER of them. Will insist, in fact, that they MEAN something DIFFERENT than what they actually SAY.

I don't have a SINGLE problem ACCEPTING them AS OFFERED. The understanding is PERFECTLY CLEAR. The REASON that the 'churches' are NOT being persecuted is that they are NOT teaching THE TRUTH. If you KNOW of one that IS, please let me KNOW where to FIND it.

Better yet, just direct me to TWO PEOPLE, not even FOLLOWERS, but BELIEVERS in the SAME TRUTH, out of the BILLIONS on this planet, and I'll be satisfied that there are AT LEAST TWO. But so far, I have YET to FIND JUST TWO. So how do you suppose that I find a BUILDING FULL?

And let me ask this in closing:

Which among us has NOT been TRAINED to be 'in love with money'?

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican · Jul 30, 2014

interpreter,

Can't say that I agree with your offering other than the DUPED part, but I CAN say that what you offered is no more inane than what MOST have been TAUGHT to believe.

Not to stray from the conversation, but I BELIEVE if you studied the TRUE history of Constantine you probably wouldn't place him in such HIGH esteem. For this man was a pagan Emperor who had members of his own family murdered. I don't know about YOU, but to ME, I don't SEE this as being a FOLLOWER of Christ.

Blessings,

MEC

BukiRob · Jul 30, 2014

Imagican said:
Of course 'the word' is not a reference to the NT. It is merely a reference to GOD's WORD period. You know, as God SPOKE Light into existence. God's Word is like OUR word. our WORD is representative of what WE ARE OR WHAT WE CHOOSE to OFFER others in communication. Jesus was THE representative of God's Word. He SAYS that the words He offered were NOT HIS OWN but GIVEN HIM by His Father: GOD. So Jesus was NOT 'The Word'. He was THE Representative OF God's Word. That is NOT what scripture says. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God.

And Jesus did NOT come offering a DIFFERENT Word. What He offered was FULFILLMENT of The Word. For God's Word was offered to teach us ONE THING: LOVE. And Jesus came to FULFILL The Word by offering THE example of what it was MEANT to teach. No Yeshua is the Word transformed into flesh Jn 1:4 And the Word became flesh, and [k]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [l]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So The Word was offered as a TEACHER. But upon the example offered, The Word was no longer NEEDED to be a 'teacher'. For the EXAMPLE was GREATER than The Word. Wrong they are one in the same. G-d's word is eternal It is NOT inferior in any way, shape or form.

The example did NOT negate the Word, it FULFILLED it. What the word was meant to teach by those that HEARD IT and UNDERSTOOD it, the example FULFILLED in actually SHOWING us what the Word MEANT. The greek word is Pleroo and the way most of you do your own thing" crowd try to define the word as ended. The word Pleroo also means: to perform, execute, to carry into effect, bring to realization, realize

It's no different than someone trying to explain instructions verbally verses SHOWING them HOW to do it. The showing may well work for SOME, but the majority NEED someone to SHOW them how.

So there were SOME that understood what the Word was meant to teach from it's offering. But MOST missed the point. That is WHY God sent His Son to SHOW us what the Word was meant to TEACH.

The Word is as valid today as it ever was. It is STILL God's Word. But we NOW have something BETTER: God sending His OWN SON to SHOW us what the Word MEANS.

Blessings,

MEC

The entire point of my post was to get people to see that Messiah is the living breathing Torah. That this absurd notion that believers don't have to pay any attention to Torah is a LIE out of the pit of Hell.

Yeshua came to be the eternal sacrifice acceptable to G-d for our sin. He also came to show us HOW to walk upright, HOW to be obedient to the decree's and commandments of G-d and in NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM did he do away with even so much as a jot or tittle of Torah

he-man · Jul 30, 2014

Imagican said:
Jesus OPENLY stated that the Word was NOT HIS OWN. You can argue around the FACT as much as you please, but I can show you NUMEROUS examples in the Book of JOHN where He PLAINLY STATES this and DESTROYS any concept of HIM BEING the Word of God.

I agree! Finally you got something right!

Imagican said:
Kind of like he-man. instead of discussing the topic, he wants to argue the existence of Satan. We've already BEEN THROUGH that argument or discussion. This isn't about that. But what it IS about is the DIFFERENCE between YOU believing in 'trinity' and others NOT. Or ME believing in Satan and others NOT. How can there be ONE truth if everyone believes something DIFFERENT? How can there BE a FUNCTIONING BODY if it's members don't even KNOW their PLACE? if the HEAD doesn't KNOW it's the head, how does the BODY function WITHOUT A HEAD?

Hey! Let ys examine a few who beleive as I do!

The chief heresy of the orthodox church was the doctrine of the Trinity (for Newton, it was the orthodox who were heretical, while he saw his own views as orthodox in the sense of original Christianity).
Why did Newton believe the Trinity was unbiblical? There are several reasons. First, he did not find the doctrine in the Bible. Not only was the term “Trinity” invented years after the closing of the New Testament canon, but Newton could find nothing approaching a formal doctrinal declaration of the Trinity in the Bible — something many modern scholars will affirm.

Instead, he believed passages such as 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 and 1 Timothy 2:5 taught that only the Father is God in the absolute sense, while Christ is the Son of God, but not “very God of very God”, to use the language of the Nicene Creed. 1 Corinthians 8:6 reads: “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him”.
Like other non-Trinitarians of his age and today, Newton took this verse to teach that the One God worshipped by the ancient Israelites is the Father alone, not Father, Son and Holy Spirit as in the Athanasian formulation.

Why did Newton believe the Trinity was a corruption? Concluding that the Trinity could not be found in the Bible (a conclusion he came to in the early 1670s, around the time he turned thirty), Newton also looked in the annals of ecclesiastical history to find out when it was introduced. His research confirmed that Hellenising churchmen introduced Platonic language and “substance talk” to Christianity in the third and fourth centuries.

This “substance talk” led to the conception that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are united according to “essence” or “substance”. Newton had astutely observed that the Bible speaks about the Father’s unity with the Son as a unity of will, not substance (see John 10:30 and 17:11, 21-22).
It was Newton’s firm belief that Christians should avoid speculative extrapolations from biblical doctrine and the introduction of foreign ideas to it, both of which can lead to error, and stick with the descriptive accounts of God and Christ found in the Bible.

For Newton, the term [God] denotes dominion and power, not essence and might.
Newton also rejected the immortality of the soul — another litmus test of orthodoxy — which he similarly found to be unbiblical. Instead of natural immortality, eternal life for Newton was obtained through bodily resurrection. Newton turned to passages such as Psalm 6:5, Psalm 115:17 and Ecclesiastes 9:5,10, all of which speak about death as unconscious oblivion.

Newton came to believe that the Bible does not teach a literal personal devil or literal personal demons (he had no trouble accepting literal angels). His view on Satan is very similar to the teaching of Judaism that Satan is not a personal being, but rather a personification of the evil inclination (yetzer ha-ra) within the human heart.

For Newton, the demon-possessed people whom Jesus healed were simply mentally or physically ill. It would be a mistake to see Newton’s rejection of a personal devil and personal demons as an example of incipient rationalism, however.

Instead, these conclusions were the result of his biblicism and, likely, his strong monotheism that rendered belief in supernatural evil beings a threat to the unchallenged sovereignty of the One God Whom he worshipped. Newton’s powerful monotheism, sharpened by his anti-trinitarian view that centralized the powers of Deity in the Father alone and combined with his profound, over-arching sense of God’s absolute dominion and unchallenged sovereignty, probably also played an important role in Newton’s banishment of demons and that chief opponent of the Deity, Satan himself.

As in the original Hebraic theistic monism, God kills and makes alive, He wounds and heals, He forms light and creates darkness, He makes peace and creates evil: Newton’s God does all these things. Is 45:7

In Newton’s system, the One true God stood unchallenged by either pagan gods or fallen angels. In sum, while undoubtedly related to his renunciation of unscriptural superstition, Newton’s rejection of evil spirits is consistent with both the general thrust of his biblical hermeneutics and the contours of his theological system.

He also believed that Christ would establish a worldwide Kingdom of God on earth and that this Kingdom would bring about peace and prosperity of the world’s inhabitants. Based on his reading of Old Testament and New Testament prophecies, he believed peace would prevail between nations, within the animal kingdom and between wild animals and humans.

The Jews would be restored to their land Israel after centuries of captivity. Jerusalem, now a city of contention for the world and the three monotheistic world religions, would become the capital city, as it were, of this worldwide Kingdom. For Newton, Christ is to be King of this Kingdom and the saints (whom Newton would have identified as the righteous) are to reign over this Kingdom with Christ (Revelation 20:4-6). http://isaacnewtonstheology.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/newton-on-the-devil.pdf

The Galilean Library

Imagican said:
If there is but ONE TRUTH, how is it even conceivable that two people professing to BELIEVE in THAT truth have different understandings of it? MEC

You are now beginning to learn what it means to have the knowledge of God when he said,

Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

ForJesusChrist · Jul 31, 2014

1 Peter 3:8

"Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind."

God Bless

Imagican · Jul 31, 2014

BukiRob said:
The entire point of my post was to get people to see that Messiah is the living breathing Torah. That this absurd notion that believers don't have to pay any attention to Torah is a LIE out of the pit of Hell.

Yeshua came to be the eternal sacrifice acceptable to G-d for our sin. He also came to show us HOW to walk upright, HOW to be obedient to the decree's and commandments of G-d and in NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM did he do away with even so much as a jot or tittle of Torah

Amen.

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican · Jul 31, 2014

he-man,

In many ways, you and I have been able to come to agreement on MORE than we have come to disagree upon.

But for me to even contemplate what you believe concerning Satan would be to accept that EVERY offering in the Bible concerning Satan or demons was fabricated by those that translated the Bible.

While I do NOT believe that the EVERY word in the Bible is a PERFECT translation, I have FAITH in God that He has been able to preserve His Word to the point that it is as ACCURATE as it NEEDS to be.

In all four Gospels we see Jesus 'casting out demons'. If there ARE no demons, then that would necessitate that EVERY MENTION was fabricated. Each demon that was 'cast out', each mention of Christ empowering the apostles to 'cast out demons', the mention of Mary having had seven demons cast out of her, the entire story of Legion, ALL of this would have to be FABRICATED for what YOU offer to be TRUTH.

Now, let us couple what I have already offered with what I PERSONALLY KNOW. I KNOW Satan. I have dealt with his DEMONS on so many occasions I could write a BOOK about my experiences. But you would tell me that I DON'T KNOW what I am talking about. That somehow I have DELUDED myself. I only WISH that were true.

And I offer this again: I PERSONALLY believe that ANYONE that could find the means to DENY what I ALREADY KNOW has placed themselves in a position to be UNABLE to even DEFEND themselves against Satan's minions. For if you DON'T even BELIEVE in an enemy, you certainly can't defend yourself against one.

And then we have this:

Ephesians 6:

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

1 Peter 5:

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

If it were ONLY the 'words', you may have the possibility to influence what I believed about them. But the 'words' ONLY CONFIRM what I ALREADY KNOW from EXPERIENCE.

And not JUST ME, he-man, there are MANY that have come to realize the TRUTH concerning Satan and his minions. And THAT makes me WONDER how ALL have not come to the SAME UNDERSTANDING. What is it that KEEPS you from seeing what I SEE and have SEEN. For they are not ISOLATED instances that have led ME to what I HAVE come to KNOW. They are COMMON to MANY. I have SEEN the results of DEMONS in ACTION. I have WATCHED people's FACES 'change' to reveal what lurked INSIDE THEM. I have READ the accounts. Over and over. And I have SEEN the EXACT things that so many have written about themselves.

So unless you can offer some explanation OTHER THAN what the BIBLE offers, unless you can explain these things away in some manner that makes sense, you are going to have an awful HARD TIME convincing ME otherwise.

And KNOW THIS: I have NO REASON to 'pull anyone's leg'. I am NOT HERE to promote ANYTHING other than the TRUTH as I understand it. I am here to offer witness and testimony to the things that have happened to ME and the things that have been revealed to me. I ask NOTHING in return.

And I KNOW THIS: my words are HERE for a PURPOSE. I KNOW that there are SOME that are going to READ them and they are GOING to touch their hearts. I KNOW that some of my words are going to bring about CONVICTION in SOME that read them. And I KNOW this, so far as Satan and his demons, there are more than ONE that will read what I have offered and be able to WITNESS and TESTIFY that what I have offered is not ONLY the TRUTH, but 'the TRUTH in DETAIL'.

For you see, God didn't offer a WHOLE LOT of information about the Devil. For if He had, the devil himself could USE it to recruit followers. Just like Mammon, we have little information about these 'devils'. For God was WELL aware that Satan himself would be able to offer ENOUGH influence so that those that would CHOOSE to follow Satan would be able to FIND him EASY ENOUGH with help. Just mentioning them and offering warning was ENOUGH.

Satan is not ONLY 'The Adversary', he was ONCE an angel of the highest degree. Of SUCH a high degree that it led to such pride that he actually rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven down to this Earth. Him AND a third of the angels that followed him. This explanation is 'good enough for me'. For he certainly CAME from SOMEWHERE. Since God is the 'creator', obviously he created Satan as well.

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican · Jul 31, 2014

ForJesusChrist said:
1 Peter 3:8

"Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind."

God Bless

Unfortunately, these words were spoken to SPECIFIC PEOPLE close to TWO thousand years ago.

Now, SHOW me those that Paul would offer these SAME words to TODAY.

UNITY of MIND, sympathy, brotherly love,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I have met some that ACT in such manner for MOMENTS at a time. And I have met many more that TALK like they are capable of expressing such attributes, but when it comes down to the TRUTH, I have YET to meet ANYONE that FITS these attributes in any manner that would matter in TRUTH.

Blessings,

MEC

Norah63 · Jul 31, 2014

The same yesterday, today and forever.
Rest in them.........1 Peter3:8
Words to live by for all the body of Christ here on this earth today.
Dont fret over what is not yet revealed to us.

he-man · Jul 31, 2014

Imagican said:
But for me to even contemplate what you believe concerning Satan would be to accept that EVERY offering in the Bible concerning Satan or demons was fabricated by those that translated the Bible.

Much "Satanic" lore does not originate from actual Satanists, but from Christians. Best-known would be the medieval folklore and theology surrounding demons and witches.

Mt 13:28 He said to them, a man1, an enemy has done this thing. And the servants said to him, Do you wish then that we go and gather them up?
1* Greek ανθρωπος man

Also totally absent from the scriptures is any hint that demons are tormenting sinners. This again comes from Dante's Inferno and other pagan concepts, not from the Bible. Heaven and Hell in the Afterlife

Imagican said:
While I do NOT believe that the EVERY word in the Bible is a PERFECT translation, I have FAITH in God that He has been able to preserve His Word to the point that it is as ACCURATE as it NEEDS to be. For if you DON'T even BELIEVE in an enemy, you certainly can't defend yourself against one.

Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge).

Imagican said:
Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

That of course, is written to warn you against the dictators who have bilked widows out of their houses and charged high interest on mortages.

Eze 22:25There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; They kill the people, take all the money and property they can get, and by their murders leave many widows.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the trickery of the false accuser.

12 It is not that we struggle1 against flesh and blood, but against magistracy2, against powers, against the rulers of this obscurity3, against spiritual [FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT, serif]guile4 in high places.

[FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT, serif]1 * Greek πάλη struggle, battle, grapple, bout, fight, combat, tussle, conflict, wrestle, wrestling, [/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT, serif]match, strife,[/FONT]
[FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT, serif]2 * Greek αρχή magistracy, principles, doctrine, tenet, precepts, beginning, start, origination[/FONT]

[FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT, serif]3 * Greek σκότος obscurity, gloom, darkness[/FONT]
[FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT, serif]4 * Greek πονηριας guile, craft; deceitful cunning; artifice; duplicity; wile; trickery; deceit; treachery slyness [/FONT][/FONT]

Imagican said:
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: MEC

Who does Jesus say are the roaring lions?

Psa 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Zep 3:3 Her rulers within her are roaring lions; her judges are evening wolves; they do not gnaw bones for the morning.
Pro 28:15As a roaring lion, and a ranging bear; so is a wicked ruler over the poor people.
Luk 11:39 And the Lord said to him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

interpreter · Jul 31, 2014

Imagican said:
interpreter,

Can't say that I agree with your offering other than the DUPED part, but I CAN say that what you offered is no more inane than what MOST have been TAUGHT to believe.

Not to stray from the conversation, but I BELIEVE if you studied the TRUE history of Constantine you probably wouldn't place him in such HIGH esteem. For this man was a pagan Emperor who had members of his own family murdered. I don't know about YOU, but to ME, I don't SEE this as being a FOLLOWER of Christ.

Blessings,

MEC

The Church holds St. Constantine in the highest esteem, making him a saint equal to the apostles.

he-man · Jul 31, 2014

interpreter said:
The Church holds St. Constantine in the highest esteem, making him a saint equal to the apostles.

God holds the only standard I know about.
Jer 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.

First, Constantine moved to eliminate the external challenges posed by paganism, destroying their temples and books. After that, he ordered that those Christian groups which had been deemed "unorthodox" also be eliminated, thus removing internal challenges.

Very quickly, theological disagreements which had been a part of the Christian experience became "unchristian." For Constantine, religious differences were impediments to the power that had replaced Maxentius and Licinius. In this way, choice ("heresy") to be religiously different became defined as treason, a political crime. http://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/western/bldef_constantine.htm

The medallion showing him with the Sol Invictus deity a year later raises questions.

This banner was of a square form, and the upright staff, whose lower section was of great length, bore a golden half-length portrait of the pious emperor and his children on its upper part, beneath the trophy of the cross, and immediately above the embroidered banner.
Eusebius of Caesarea The Life of the Blessed Emperor Constantine

"Constantine under pretence of comforting her, applied a remedy worse than the disease. For causing a bath to be heated to an extraordinary degree, he shut up Fausta [Constantine's wife] in it, and a short time after took her out dead. THE HISTORY OF COUNT ZOSIMUS. London: Green and Chaplin (1814)

Most people consider Constantine a Christian from the Milvian Bridge in 312, but he wasn't baptized until a quarter century later. He knew that a ruler had to do things that were against Christian teachings, so he waited until he no longer had to do such things.
See: "Religion and Politics at the Council at Nicaea," by Robert M. Grant. The Journal of Religion, Vol. 55, No. 1 (Jan., 1975), pp. 1-12

DrBubbaLove · Jul 31, 2014

Imagican said:
Doc,

the TRUTH is, I have found that among the Catholic Church, there are as MANY that do NOT agree with or even UNDERSTAND what it IS that they profess to BELIEVE as ANY other denominations, or even ALL the denominations COMBINED.

As this is what I already admitted im my first post am not sure why anyone felt the need to repeat it.
What some Catholics may or may not know does not matter. The claim was no two believers hold the same core beliefs as true. Since the Church has made it easy for Catholics by detailing all our core beliefs in one place, it would not be possible to claim that no two Catholics are in agreement
with the Church on all those things. In fact I would think quite a few, and if one visits One Bread section the unity of those core beliefs is evident in the discussions there.

You would offer that it's the Catholic Church. But I couldn't disagree with you MORE. For the Catholic Church doesn't even profess the Bible to be the Word of God. They INSIST that it has been THE POPES that have had apostolic authority that can be traced all the way back to Christ.

I guess we should not be surprised that someone alledgedly unable to find two believers holding similar beliefs would be able to correctly express what others believe. Wrong on both counts. Catholics hold the Word of God as Sacred and Apostolic Authority has nothing to do with Pope's or the teaching the authority of the Church.

But anyone that does even a cursory study of the HISTORY of the POPES can plainly SEE that there have been SOME POPES that have been UTTERLY CORRUPT. How does one propose to convince themselves that a REPRESENTATIVE OF CHRIST can BE CORRUPT?

Most of us believe men are sinners, which means we are subject to err. The Popes are men and therefore sinners. Why else would the Pope need to confess?

And for all the posturing, one would be hard pressed to find a clear case for cthe level of corruption imagined except for one, perhaps two people. And even if corrupt, one will not find a single teaching that they influenced, changed or proposed - not that a person clearly incapable of explaining what Papal Infalibility means or Magisterium means would appreciate that. Just saying.

But YOU would tell me that YOU have found THE ONE 'church' that follows in TRUTH. Yet the ONLY evidence that you can OFFER is: "It is simply what you have CHOSEN to believe", even though it is in opposition to the Bible.

LOL, how could the Church both give us our Bible and be opposed to it?
The Church was not lost before I chose to align myself fully with Her. Not that I would expect some so clearly mistaken about the Church would appreciate that any professing Christian is part of One Body.

Do you HONESTLY BELIEVE that the Catholic Church was EVER given authority to MURDER those that opposed it?

Since the Church does not claim now or ever to have such authority, am unclear why anyone would ask - honestly that is -as I doubt honesty had anything to do with this question.

Do you HONESTLY BELIEVE that the Spirit of God LED the Catholics into the Crusades or INSPIRED the Inquisition?

Another dishonest question. Am sure some people probably made all sorts of claims motivated by all sorts of reasons to inspire people engage in war/violence. Being a Catholic does not make one super human, it is a Body of sinners.

I do NOT. I DO NOT believe that The Spirit of God, revealed through Christ in LOVE, could possibly have inspired behavior CONTRARY to the very CONCEPT of LOVE. And you would be hard-pressed trying to convince me that there is ANY offering of LOVE in trying to FORCE others to FOLLOW as YOU DO. That is certainly NOT the method that Christ introduced. A Bishop MUST be BLAMELESS. How much BLOOD is actually on the hands of the Popes of the PAST?

I would leave the judgement to God for blood shed. I will say history often has different flavors depending on who is telling it.

That is EXACTLY how I feel about the Catholic Church. If it's MEMBERS actually KNEW what it was that they profess to believe, most would LEAVE.

AM sure Jack Chic feels the same way and seems to have read the same "history" as well.
Since what the Church professes to believe is COMPLETELY online for all to read, am unclear why someone would think that knowledge hidden. And given it in VERY PRECISE detail that is easy to access (even with cross references to the Bible one claims those beliefs contradict), the idea people would leave if they read it is obviously way off the mark.

And that is EXACTLY THE MANNER that the Catholic Church USED against it's followers: KEPT THEM IGNORANT of the TRUTH and ONLY introduced to the congregation what they WANTED them to believe. Refusing to even allow the Bible to be translated into languages that 'the people' could read. Actually putting those to DEATH that even tried to go against their will. "In the NAME of Christ".

Again history has a
funny way of favoring those telling it. Scriptures were translated into English and approved translations existed before Tyndale did it.

Turris Fortis - Tyndale's Heresy

So, you can SAY that there is mutual BELIEF in the Catholic Church, but from MY studies and discussions with those OF the Catholic faith, MOST don't even KNOW what it is that they PROFESS to believe. They are MERELY followers of what they are TOLD to believe.

A faithful Catholic would know they are told to read the Cathecism. A person claiming they MERELY believed what they were told to believe is hardly an authority on which to build one's opinion of what a professing Catholic is suppose to be professing they believe.

I didn't open this thread through IGNORANCE.

Yet clearly ignorance is on display regarding what the Church professes Catholic are to hold as truths.

I tried my best to lay the ground work to SHOW that it is through MUCH TIME and MUCH STUDY and MUCH interaction with those of numerous denominations, ESPECIALLY those that profess to be Catholic, that I offered my CONCLUSION.

Click to expand...

Seems one had really bad luck with Catholics, sorry they wasted your time and ruined your effort.

Now it is merely a matter of determining whether you will choose to BELIEVE and FOLLOW these words, or if one is even CAPABLE.

Click to expand...

Ahhh, I see. Everyone is duped, we just need to follow these words and believe - but even the person proposing this has no hope to include himself in that group of "true" believers. Good luck with that. I will stick with One Body that offers Hope to all as well as a very detailed online profession of what Catholics hold to be true.

We KNOW it's possible or the words would never have been offered. But WHICH among us is willing to ACCEPT and FOLLOW THEM? Haven't met ANYONE yet. Only SEEN it in the MOVIES or read about it in BOOKS.

Blessings,

MEC

Click to expand...

How very sad. Hopefully everyone here will pray say a prayer for you.

Click to expand...

Norah63 · Aug 1, 2014

If we need to take apart every religion before we feel safe from being duped, this threads gonna be a long one.
Everyone has a level of self to deal with. What they will accept of truth.
To overcome the fear of deception, is real freedom.
Its not a sin to be duped, but to be fearful, that really paints one into a corner.
The devil goes about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
He's the master bluffer, creating the illusion that he wants us to fall for.
Greater is He that is in us!

Der Alte · Aug 1, 2014

he-man said:
Much "Satanic" lore does not originate from actual Satanists, but from Christians. Best-known would be the medieval folklore and theology surrounding demons and witches.

Mt 13:28 He said to them, a man1, an enemy has done this thing. And the servants said to him, Do you wish then that we go and gather them up?
1* Greek ανθρωπος man

Also totally absent from the scriptures is any hint that demons are tormenting sinners. This again comes from Dante's Inferno and other pagan concepts, not from the Bible. Heaven and Hell in the Afterlife Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge). That of course, is written to warn you against the dictators who have bilked widows out of their houses and charged high interest on mortages.

Eze 22:25There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; They kill the people, take all the money and property they can get, and by their murders leave many widows.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the trickery of the false accuser.

12 It is not that we struggle1 against flesh and blood, but against magistracy2, against powers, against the rulers of this obscurity3, against spiritual guile4 in high places.

1 * Greek πάλη struggle, battle, grapple, bout, fight, combat, tussle, conflict, wrestle, wrestling, match, strife,
2 * Greek αρχή magistracy, principles, doctrine, tenet, precepts, beginning, start, origination
3 * Greek σκότος obscurity, gloom, darkness
4 * Greek πονηριας guile, craft; deceitful cunning; artifice; duplicity; wile; trickery; deceit; treachery slyness Who does Jesus say are the roaring lions?

Psa 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Zep 3:3 Her rulers within her are roaring lions; her judges are evening wolves; they do not gnaw bones for the morning.
Pro 28:15As a roaring lion, and a ranging bear; so is a wicked ruler over the poor people.
Luk 11:39 And the Lord said to him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

This is cherry picking a bunch of random scriptures, from different testaments, different speakers, different contexts, throwing them all together and concocting a false teaching. Translating Greek or Hebrew does not mean picking random definitions from a lexicon.

he-man · Aug 1, 2014

Der Alter said:
a false teaching.

Yes, a conspiracy like Eze 22:25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; They kill the people, take all the money and property they can get, and by their murders leave many widows.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the trickery of the false accuser.

Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge).

Many people wish to follow the rituals of what man has taught and do not follow what God teaches as doctrine . However, Ps 37:13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

This is what happens to people who mistakenly follow men's beliefs.

Ezekiel 20:26 and I pronounced them unclean because of their ritual gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire, that I might make them desolate and that they might know that I am the LORD

timewerx · Aug 1, 2014

Imagican said:
So in this context, it could even mean GOD Himself. God could BE the ONE THING that someone holds MOST dear in their hearts to the point that even their very sustenance takes a BACK SEAT to their RELATIONSHIP with God.

And EVERY indication offered in the Bible is that we are SUPPOSE to place GOD FIRST in our heart, mind and soul. We are to LOVE God MORE than each other, more than the very air we breath. More than our families or children or even ourselves.

In 53 years, I can TRULY SAY that I have YET to meet a SINGLE PERSON that I BELIEVE loves God MORE than ANYTHING else. Not ONE PERSON who places GOD before EVERYTHING ELSE in their lives. And don't get me WRONG, I have included MYSELF in 'not a SINGLE PERSON'. For it is ONLY through my OWN understanding that I am able to offer what I am offering here.

When I put God first in my life, this is what happened to me:

- I ended up working in Saudi Arabia as an expat!

It's not a good place to hold a job and spend the rest of your life, probably one of the worst places due to the oppressive Sharia Law and the racial supremacist views of the Saudis (excluding other Arabs).

I have spent so much time seeking God that I simply went for the job that I could most easily get... ...And the job offer from Saudi was the easiest one, easiest interview ever! Expats probably hate working there so it becomes very easy to get a job there.

Fortunately, working in Saudi still gave me a lot of time to seek God. There's not much activity to do around here. It's always too hot outside and it's a desert place.

I still have no family of my own, no place of my own. All my stuff would weigh just 200 lbs.

I put God first to such a degree that nearly every aspect of my life suffered. But at least I have a job and I can still help the needy.

Nearly everyone of my schoolmates, colleagues who focused on their careers, now have their own families, house and cars of their own, a cozy life in western countries. Many of them are Christians.

This verse is starting to make sense (Luke 6:20;24):

Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
"But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.

Excellent thread MEC!

interpreter · Aug 1, 2014

he-man said:
God holds the only standard I know about.
Jer 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.

First, Constantine moved to eliminate the external challenges posed by paganism, destroying their temples and books. After that, he ordered that those Christian groups which had been deemed "unorthodox" also be eliminated, thus removing internal challenges. [/SIZE]

Very quickly, theological disagreements which had been a part of the Christian experience became "unchristian." For Constantine, religious differences were impediments to the power that had replaced Maxentius and Licinius. In this way, choice ("heresy") to be religiously different became defined as treason, a political crime. http://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/western/bldef_constantine.htm

The medallion showing him with the Sol Invictus deity a year later raises questions.

This banner was of a square form, and the upright staff, whose lower section was of great length, bore a golden half-length portrait of the pious emperor and his children on its upper part, beneath the trophy of the cross, and immediately above the embroidered banner.
Eusebius of Caesarea The Life of the Blessed Emperor Constantine

"Constantine under pretence of comforting her, applied a remedy worse than the disease. For causing a bath to be heated to an extraordinary degree, he shut up Fausta [Constantine's wife] in it, and a short time after took her out dead. THE HISTORY OF COUNT ZOSIMUS. London: Green and Chaplin (1814)

Most people consider Constantine a Christian from the Milvian Bridge in 312, but he wasn't baptized until a quarter century later. He knew that a ruler had to do things that were against Christian teachings, so he waited until he no longer had to do such things.
See: "Religion and Politics at the Council at Nicaea," by Robert M. Grant. The Journal of Religion, Vol. 55, No. 1 (Jan., 1975), pp. 1-12

And St. Constantine sent his messengers with a trumpet and gathered the elect of all the Church together, to Nicea.

What if we have ALL been 'duped'?

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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