What if we have ALL been 'duped'?

[Imagican]

I know, YOU know YOU haven't been. But what IF? Let's examine the EVIDENCE.

I have been debating theology, (Bible based), on internet 'Christian Forums' for about 10 years or so. And in ALL these years, I have YET to find just TWO PEOPLE that are in agreement when it comes to what they BELIEVE according to the Bible.

Now that's TEN YEARS and coming in contact with literally HUNDREDS of different people, and EVERY ONE OF THEM with a DIFFERENT understanding when it comes to the Bible.

Yes, I have found that SOME have SOME common understanding, but NEVER have I found TWO people, out of TEN years and hundreds of people, not TWO individuals with the SAME theology.

How is that POSSIBLE? If ALL these are claiming to KNOW the SAME God through His Son, Jesus Christ, how is it even REMOTELY POSSIBLE that they are ALL following DIFFERENT understanding?

Unless, they, we, are ALL duped into a 'false sense' of KNOWLEDGE? Unless EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US is following something OTHER THAN what we BELIEVE we are following?

For it would ONLY STAND TO REASON that there would certainly be at least TWO persons following the SAME understanding if the whole concept is based on a SINGLE God with a SINGLE purpose.

If God is the same today as yesterday and tomorrow, HOW CAN there be SO MANY DIFFERENT understandings of this "ONE GOD"? In my opinion, it's an IMPOSSIBILITY. If there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, then there is ONLY ONE TRUE understanding of that God as HE HAS REVEALED HIMSELF. He is certainly not the TRUTH if He reveals Himself ONE way to ONE person and a DIFFERENT way to another.

So if we RULE OUT that which is IMPOSSIBLE and focus on what IS possible, the ONLY logical conclusion is that we are ALL WRONG. If there are not even TWO OF US able to come to 'the same' understanding, then obviously what we are ALL following is something 'other than the TRUTH'.

And here is HOW I believe it has taken place....................

Throughout the ENTIRE New Testament, Jesus and the apostles offered us a TON of instruction concerning MONEY. We are told at one point that it is IMPOSSIBLE to follow TWO masters.

We are also told that there would be MANY that would BRAG to Christ 'in that day' of all the wonderful 'things' they had done IN HIS NAME. But in the reality of the situation, HE NEVER EVEN KNEW THEM. They were 'workers of inequity'. And if He never knew THEM, then that means that THEY NEVER KNEW HIM. They were 'just using His NAME'.

We are told that the 'LOVE of money is THE ROOT of ALL EVIL'.

Let us examine what the word "MONEY" means.

It obviously isn't ONLY a reference to coins or pieces of paper. For pieces of paper weren't even USED as currency at the time of Christ.

We see that EVIL existed LONG before men began to create COINS. For there was a time that 'barter' was the ONLY form of trade.

So that means that the word 'money', as used in the Bible, means something much DEEPER than mere 'currency' so far as coins or paper.

What 'money' REALLY MEANS is WEALTH. Something of VALUE. ANYTHING of 'value'.

To the farmer it would be what he produced. To the laborer it would be his labor. To the King it would be His subjects and his dominion. To the Judge it would be HIS POSITION. To the artist, his art. To the doctor, his skill to heal. To the priest, his relationship to God.

The indication is that 'money' means nothing other than: that which we HOLD dear in our HEARTS. That which we LOVE. The 'thing' or 'things' that bring us pleasure or sustenance. Basically what we LIVE FOR.

So in this context, it could even mean GOD Himself. God could BE the ONE THING that someone holds MOST dear in their hearts to the point that even their very sustenance takes a BACK SEAT to their RELATIONSHIP with God.

And EVERY indication offered in the Bible is that we are SUPPOSE to place GOD FIRST in our heart, mind and soul. We are to LOVE God MORE than each other, more than the very air we breath. More than our families or children or even ourselves.

In 53 years, I can TRULY SAY that I have YET to meet a SINGLE PERSON that I BELIEVE loves God MORE than ANYTHING else. Not ONE PERSON who places GOD before EVERYTHING ELSE in their lives. And don't get me WRONG, I have included MYSELF in 'not a SINGLE PERSON'. For it is ONLY through my OWN understanding that I am able to offer what I am offering here.

Do I BELIEVE that I LOVE God? Sure. Do I believe I KNOW God. Absolutely. But do I LIVE UP to ALL that the Bible offers that is REQUIRED to be able to answer EITHER of these questions in TRUTH? NOT EVEN CLOSE.

In my 53 years I have met some people that I would call 'good people' and I have met MANY MORE that I would call 'bad people'. But in ALL the people I have EVER MET, when judging them according to RIGHTEOUSNESS as OUTLINED in the Bible, I have YET TO MEET A SINGLE ONE who's UNRIGHTEOUSNESS didn't outweigh their RIGHTEOUSNESS a thousand to ONE or MORE.

So my point is: what IF? What IF in the two thousand years since Christ, we, the WORLD as a WHOLE, has been DUPED, (fooled by Satan), into BELIEVING that which is utterly FALSE? We have been LURED into BELIEVING whatever we WANT to believe and have USED that as our means of justification? What if we have ALL 'fallen' that the EXACT same manner as Eve in the garden? We have allowed Satan to convince us that HE is God and that we can PICK and CHOOSE what we WANT to believe so far as the Bible is concerned. And our UNDERSTANDING of the Bible is based on what WE WANT to believe instead of what is actually offered?

It would certainly EXPLAIN why EVERYONE has a DIFFERENT belief system and no TWO are ALIKE. It would certainly explain WHY God is going to DESTROY the very EARTH itself and START OVER with a NEW Earth. It would certainly explain how in the END there are ONLY GOING TO BE TWO WITNESSES that the REST of the world is going to LOOK upon in disdain as they lay in the street. And it would certainly explain the current situation where EVERYONE believes that things should be THEIR WAY instead of THE way outlined in The Bible.

I can still remember my initial response to the movie 'The Matrix' when it first came out. Morpheus explaining to Neo in the beginning. And Neo's response when the ultimate truth was revealed. DENIAL. "LET ME OUT" he exclaimed when he actually realized what Morpheus was saying. "NO WAY. THIS JUST CAN'T BE". No different than the response will be HERE to the words I am offering. "NO WAY. This just CAN'T BE". And isn't that EXACTLY what Satan would LIKE our response to be if what I am saying is the TRUTH? For Satan's most proficient weapon against us is DENIAL. Teaching us to DENY the truth and follow something "DIFFERENT" instead.

Just like the manner in which he DUPED Eve in the garden, he convinced her to DENY the TRUTH of God and follow 'his' truth instead. By simply offering her her hearts desire, he was able to convince her that what God had offered didn't MATTER. Was able to convince her that what SHE WANTED was MORE important than what GOD wanted FOR her. Until her eyes were OPENED. It was ONLY THEN that she realized the mistake she had made.

But what if OUR eyes NEVER become OPENED enough to SEE the TRUTH?

And that is EXACTLY how I see EVERYONE I have EVER MET. Willing to alter whatever truth that's offered in the Bible in order to HAVE what they WANT. Doing whatever it takes to make the Bible FIT their DESIRES.

And that is WHY I believe every single person I have ever MET has a DIFFERENT understanding'. For everyone's DESIRES differ even if ever so slightly. And when they read the Bible, they IGNORE or alter those parts they don't LIKE and form their understanding based on their DESIRES instead of what is actually WRITTEN on it's pages. Once again, DENIAL of those parts they DON'T LIKE. So they simply ignore or alter them to suit themselves.

Now, BEFORE you attack my words through DENIAL, just remember what I have already stated, "Satan's most SUCCESSFUL TOOL that he uses against us is teaching us to DENY the TRUTH". For that is EXACTLY what he convinced Eve to DO in the garden. DENY the TRUTH of God and accept his truth instead. And the REASON was that HIS truth appeased HER desires more than the TRUTH as offered by God. Her flesh convinced HER that SHE deserved MORE. And Satan's encouragement was all it took to persuade her to DO exactly what she had been told NOT TO DO for the sake of her OWN flesh's desires.

And isn't that what EVERY ONE of us is DOING today? Trying to convince ourselves that we are righteous when almost EVERYTHING we DO is unrighteous? When we GIVE it is to make ourselves FEEL better about ourselves, (and that is according to those that DO give. How many will leave their 'churches' today and see someone begging for money and IGNORE THEM? Heck, how many have FAMILY members in NEED that they will REFUSE to help? How many have close friends that are struggling but won't lift a FINGER to help. Scared of GIVING UP any PORTION of their WEALTH in order to HELP those in NEED? But convincing themselves of their OWN righteousness).

So, TELL ME how WRONG I am. Tell me that YOU KNOW God and you are placing Him FIRST in your life. As you spend MORE time today watching TV than devotion to God or ANYONE in your life. Tell me that it is ME that is confused as you try DESPERATELY to convince me and others of your RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Nope. I believe that I have finally found the ANSWER I have been seeking for YEARS. The REASON that no TWO people I have EVER KNOWN are in agreement concerning God's Word is that that I have YET to meet TWO PEOPLE that are ACTUALLY following it. They are following the BITS and PIECES that don't get 'in the way' of their TRUE LUSTS.

I am a 'carpenter' by trade. And one of my skills is painting. And having done this for over thirty years, there is ONE thing that I have come to realize, EVERY shade of WHITE is DIFFERENT. Ten different manufacturers make ten DIFFERENT shades of WHITE. Even among their own brands, there may be five or six DIFFERENT shades of WHITE. But they ALL call their own blend: WHITE.

And if I were to show you any one of the different cans, you would look at it and say it's WHITE. But if I were to take two different cans and paint them next to each other on the same wall, you would then ask me, "Why did you use a DIFFERENT color on one side than the other. Yet EACH was LABELED 'WHITE'.

Matthew 7:

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Note that in this scripture it does NOT offer that there are MANY DIFFERENT paths. It states 'strait is THE gate and narrow is THE way which leadeth unto life................... THE gate and THE way. The use of the word THE is SINGULAR, not PLURAL.


My point? I have witnesses THOUSANDS of people who CLAIM to be 'followers' of Christ. Yet I have YET to meet TWO that followed in the SAME MANNER. They all CALL themselves 'Christians', but EACH follows a DIFFERENT path. Is that REALLY possible? Or is each merely being DUPED into BELIEVING that they are on the 'proper path'? I wonder....................

Blessings,

MEC

 

[South Bound]

I know, YOU know YOU haven't been. But what IF? Let's examine the EVIDENCE.

I have been debating theology, (Bible based), on internet 'Christian Forums' for about 10 years or so. And in ALL these years, I have YET to find just TWO PEOPLE that are in agreement when it comes to what they BELIEVE according to the Bible.

Now that's TEN YEARS and coming in contact with literally HUNDREDS of different people, and EVERY ONE OF THEM with a DIFFERENT understanding when it comes to the Bible.

Yes, I have found that SOME have SOME common understanding, but NEVER have I found TWO people, out of TEN years and hundreds of people, not TWO individuals with the SAME theology.

You must not have looked very hard. I've found many.

If God is the same today as yesterday and tomorrow, HOW CAN there be SO MANY DIFFERENT understandings of this "ONE GOD"? In my opinion, it's an IMPOSSIBILITY. If there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, then there is ONLY ONE TRUE understanding of that God as HE HAS REVEALED HIMSELF. He is certainly not the TRUTH if He reveals Himself ONE way to ONE person and a DIFFERENT way to another.

And yet, if we did all have exactly the same understanding, you'd say we had a Borg-like mentality and are incapable of thinking for ourselves.

In 53 years, I can TRULY SAY that I have YET to meet a SINGLE PERSON that I BELIEVE loves God MORE than ANYTHING else. Not ONE PERSON who places GOD before EVERYTHING ELSE in their lives. And don't get me WRONG, I have included MYSELF in 'not a SINGLE PERSON'. For it is ONLY through my OWN understanding that I am able to offer what I am offering here.

So, you haven't found a sinner who doesn't act sinfully and that's news to you?

 

[lesliedellow]

And yet, if we did all have exactly the same understanding, you'd say we had a Borg-like mentality and are incapable of thinking for ourselves.

Yes, I come across that continually. Atheists and/or skeptics really do want to have it both ways, don't they?

 

[Hillsage]

Your opening post interested me, the book you wrote after did not. So I didn't read much after seeing how long it was. That being said my POV is this; every one believing the exact same thing was never required. It is more about WHO we believe in and how we walk after coming into that relationship. And if we were ALL deceived... So what? For many years I've said if there were no heaven OR hell I'd still be a believer, because the life I've lived since 'believing' is still better than the life I had before I believed. AMEN

 

[ananda]

OP's post hinges on the idea that correct "belief" is the basis for truth.

What is that isn't true at all?

 

[Norah63]

The body of Christ is made up of many members. Each has a purpose that no other can fulfill.
Like snowflakes, no two parts exactly alike. I find that thrilling.
Our Father is so creative, it just never ends.
Who would want a cookie cutter form?
Every thought and revelation strikes us on some level that beings out our salvation
Our body is a miracle, just like the body of Christ.

 

[donfish06]

Your opening post interested me, the book you wrote after did not. So I didn't read much after seeing how long it was. That being said my POV is this; every one believing the exact same thing was never required. It is more about WHO we believe in and how we walk after coming into that relationship. And if we were ALL deceived... So what? For many years I've said if there were no heaven OR hell I'd still be a believer, because the life I've lived since 'believing' is still better than the life I had before I believed. AMEN

The Bible specifically states that Jesus is the Word, so how can we all "believe" in Him (Word) and view the Word so differently? The fact is there are over 30 or 40 ( I forget exactly) THOUSAND "Christian" Denominations or groups of belief. The fact is that only ONE can be correct. Straight is the gate...

 

[DrBubbaLove]

One thing that appealed to me about becoming Catholic was that they have recorded in a lot of detail and put online what Catholics are suppose to hold to be true. And if all Catholics held all those things to be true or maybe more correctly even knew what all those things are, then we would be that uniform group of believers the OP was looking for. But as someone already pointed out we are all sinners. But I do think having comprehensive documentation of what a religion holds to be true is an excellant start.

Saint Charles Borromeo Catholic Church of Picayune, MS - Faith - Catechism of the Catholic Church - Index A

 

[Hillsage]

The Bible specifically states that Jesus is the Word, so how can we all "believe" in Him (Word) and view the Word so differently? .

Jesus said; "The words that I SPEAK are spirit." I think you/I disagree if you believe 'the bible' is "the Word". Jesus never 'wrote' anything according to history. The bible was the only the most 'pure graphe', at the hand of those whose autograph was 'original' IMO.

'Graphe' being the Greek word for "scriptures" in the NT. I supposed we'd all agree, 'that's' the bible today...right?

1124 graphe: a document, i.e. holy Writ (or its contents or a statement in it)

I personally came to ""believe" in Him"....without anybody quoting the bible to me. I got born again because a guy gave his testimony as to how Jesus saved him from his old life. I accepted that same Jesus and my life also changed that very night. Then I got interested in studying 'the bible'. Being pretty dumb spiritually, and cheap monetarily, I shopped around and found a paperback NT, in a milk toast translation. The first thing I did was look at it and say to myself; "Man that's a pretty fat book, I think I'll just read the last CHAPTER and see how it ends." So, the first 'chapter' of the bible, that I ever read...was the BOOK of the Revelation.

The fact is there are over 30 or 40 ( I forget exactly) THOUSAND "Christian" Denominations or groups of belief. The fact is that only ONE can be correct. Straight is the gate..

Hmmm, or possibly ALL are correct, OR...ALL are incorrect. and given the fact that there are over a thousand different translations of the NT alone....do you also believe that "only ONE can be correct" there also? They kind of go 'hand in hand'

Personally, I don't trust ANY of 'the written' translations of man...I trust in Him and His Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:2 You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on your hearts, to be known and read by all men;3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Don't get me wrong...I love my bibles, and I made a concerted effort to study them. But the only "Word" I get out of any of them, is 'the Word' that is enlightened to 'the eyes of my heart' by the Spirit of truth.

EPH 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,

donfish, I hope this gives you a little better understanding of where I come from. Not saying you have to agree, mind you, but hopefully just letting you know that I really have thought about my POV.

 

[Willie T]

And, if you have been "duped"........... have you hated your life, or something? And what would have made any difference, anyway?

 

[Timothew]

I have been debating theology, (Bible based), on internet 'Christian Forums' for about 10 years or so. And in ALL these years, I have YET to find just TWO PEOPLE that are in agreement when it comes to what they BELIEVE according to the Bible.

MEC

That's based on people who go to internet discussion forums. There are no two people on internet discussion forums that agree about anything.

 

[Imagican]

You must not have looked very hard. I've found many.

That's an awful BOLD assumption if you actually READ what I offered. So, do ME a favor, name ONE person on this forum who AGREES with YOUR theology.

And yet, if we did all have exactly the same understanding, you'd say we had a Borg-like mentality and are incapable of thinking for ourselves.

If you equate following as instructed, taking on the MIND and HEART of God as as offered by Christ and the apostles as having a Borg-like mentality, that in and of itself does nothing but further illustrate what I have offered. For that indicates that YOU don't REALLY believe in the TRUTH. For we are TOLD that we were created in the IMAGE of God. That means that we have the CAPACITY to THINK like God and to ACT like God. At the very LEAST: to follow the WILL of God.

So, you haven't found a sinner who doesn't act sinfully and that's news to you?

No, what I have found is that ALL are sinners that follow their OWN will instead of the will of God.

What i have been LOOKING for are those that WERE sinners but have come to the place where they are capable of OVERCOMING. What I have been looking for is SOMEONE who places God FIRST in their lives. Someone capable of sacrificing SELF for the sake of OTHERS. Not as a ONCE time offering, but a CONTINUAL offering from the time of their 'rebirth' till the time of the death of their flesh.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Your opening post interested me, the book you wrote after did not. So I didn't read much after seeing how long it was.

I have found that even among those that SAY they 'believe', most feel the SAME WAY about the BIBLE.

That being said my POV is this; every one believing the exact same thing was never required.

See, maybe it would be a GOOD IDEA to READ the Bible. For if you did, then you would no longer be able to BELIEVE what you have offered in this statement.

We MUST serve in TRUTH and SPIRIT. Truth IS an 'exact THING'. And once we COME to the TRUTH, it will certainly DICTATE HOW we THINK.

From your perspective, the Bible is IRRELEVANT. But from my perspective it is the FOUNDATION of what we are SUPPOSE to believe.

It is more about WHO we believe in and how we walk after coming into that relationship.

Is you NORMAL manner of communication a matter of contradiction? "how we WALK is UTTERLY determined by OUR UNDERSTANDING. But you previously stated that our understanding DOESN'T matter.

For if God INSPIRED the books of the Bible, it was designed to teach us the SAME THING. And through an UNDERSTANDING of what it is meant to TEACH, that is what determines HOW WE WALK.

I propose that if what you learn from the Bible is something DIFFERENT than what it was meant to teach, there IS NO TRUE RELATIONSHIP.

And if we were ALL deceived... So what? For many years I've said if there were no heaven OR hell I'd still be a believer, because the life I've lived since 'believing' is still better than the life I had before I believed. AMEN

Now THAT is PROFOUND: "If Satan has WON THE DAY, SO WHAT?" Obviously you and I would have a difficult time discussing THEOLOGY. For I have never really been into that 'oh well' theology.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

The body of Christ is made up of many members. Each has a purpose that no other can fulfill.
Like snowflakes, no two parts exactly alike. I find that thrilling.
Our Father is so creative, it just never ends.
Who would want a cookie cutter form?
Every thought and revelation strikes us on some level that beings out our salvation
Our body is a miracle, just like the body of Christ.

Norah, if you actually READ what I offered, I propose NO 'cookie cutter FORM'.

But what I DO propose is TRUTH.

ONE is ONE. that is TRUTH. To believe one is THREE is NOT truth. Water is WET. That is TRUTH. There is NO DRY WATER.

With these concepts in mind AND in our HEARTS, there is ONLY ONE TRUTH as revealed by God through Christ. ONE TRUTH. Not MILLIONS of DIFFERENT truths. ONE TRUTH. And anything and EVERYTHING that does not agree with that ONE TRUTH is a LIE. There is NO GREY AREA when it comes to the TRUTH. It is as cut and dry as our judgment WILL be. There will be no 'partial salvation'. One will either be SAVED or they will NOT be saved. There is NO IN BETWEEN.

Each of us IS as different as snowflakes. But that doesn't mean that it is NOT REQUIRED that those that WOULD be saved come to the SAME TRUTH.

Each of us is gifted according to the measure God offers. That in and of itself makes EACH of us DIFFERENT. Even in HIS family, even with a following of ONE TRUTH, each would STILL be DIFFERENT. Different SOUND of their voice, different color of their eyes, different color of their skin. But with a COMMON understanding of the WILL OF GOD. A common ABILITY to UNDERSTAND and PRACTICE the sharing of their LOVE with God and their neighbors.

I propose that any and EVERYONE that has a DIFFERENT understanding of God's Word that is opposed to the ACTUAL MEANING is NOT being LED by The Spirit in understanding. They are either relying upon their own understanding or being false led through the influence of some 'other spirit'. For if God's Word is THE truth, then it can ONLY have ONE MEANING. And that meaning MUST be THE SAME for ALL of His Children. It is not GOD that has offered DIFFERENT MEANINGS from the SAME WORDS. It is MAN or maybe even SATAN that has introduced such a concept. For if God's Word is the TRUTH, it can only have ONE MEANING. Opposing concepts cannot ALL be the TRUTH. At most, only ONE of the concepts can be truth. All the rest are LIES.

No, what happened when most read what I offered was OFFENSE. Instead of simply accepting what I offered and moving on, many will insist upon attacking my words for the simple FACT that they caused OFFENSE. But SHOULD they? Should what I offered BE ABLE to cause OFFENSE? Only if the one offended is offered CONVICTION they are unwilling to FACE. For otherwise what I have offered is merely WORDS. Only if those words HURT can they offer OFFENSE. And in order for them to HURT, one MUST suffer CONVICTION. Now, how one DEALS with that conviction is able to PLAINLY show what is TRULY in their hearts.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[South Bound]

That's an awful BOLD assumption if you actually READ what I offered. So, do ME a favor, name ONE person on this forum who AGREES with YOUR theology.

Rick Otto, JM, Albion, SapphireOwl, Jeffwhosoever, autummnleaf, nephilimiyr, EdwinWillers, NightHawkeye, desmalia, LittleLambofJesus, av1611vet, IfNotForGrace, Sunlover1, Kristos, Tony Kara, Jake225, sistren...

If you equate following as instructed, taking on the MIND and HEART of God as as offered by Christ and the apostles as having a Borg-like mentality, that in and of itself does nothing but further illustrate what I have offered.

Actually, I didn't say I equated it with a Borg-like mentality. I said that's the response I generally get from people like you.

What i have been LOOKING for are those that WERE sinners

Good luck with that. My Bible says we're all sinners.

 

[Imagican]

Before I read any more responses, I am compelled to travel HERE:

Matthew 19:

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.


Does this "RING A BELL?" Does it SOUND FAMILIAR? Does it sound JUST LIKE what YOUR response would BE?


Are not ALL that profess to be followers DESIROUS of 'eternal life'? Is that not the PURPOSE of Salvation and is not SALVATION what ANY follower would be desirous to OBTAIN? If not, why would ANYONE profess to be a 'follower'? If forgiveness leading to Salvation is 'not the point', then what IS YOUR POINT?


When asked HOW to obtain ETERNAL LIFE:

what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?


Jesus answered the question of 'obtainment of eternal life' LIKE THIS:

Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Now, the question is: DO YOU BELIEVE IT. Do you BELIEVE these WORDS OF CHRIST?



If not, then I guess this conversation is MOOT. But if you DO, then I ask, which among us is NOT GUILTY of any ONE of these things?


But the 'young rich man' answered that he was INNOCENT of ALL these things. That he had NEVER murdered, committed adultery, never STOLEN, NEVER offered 'false witness', ALWAYS honored his father and mother and had loved his neighbor AS HIMSELF.


Kind of reminds me of what I so often HERE here on the forums. Those that INDICATE that they are NOT guilty of what everyone else KNOWS they ARE. For anyone that would even INDICATE they are WITHOUT SIN is a LIAR.


Yet we are TOLD that in ORDER to receive ETERNAL LIFE, Jesus answered by saying, "KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS". Which among us KEEPS the COMMANDMENTS? If you DON'T but say you can obtain ETERNAL LIFE otherwise, you would end up turning Christ's words into something FALSE.


So, which among us BELIEVES these words of Christ? And better YET, which among us UPHOLDS these words of Christ? Which among us, according to the words of HIM WHO WE SAY WE BELIEVE actually FOLLOWS the WORDS He offered?


So, don't 'get mad' at ME for pointing out the TRUTH. Don't 'get mad' at ME for being ABLE to understand and ACCEPT what I read AS IT IS OFFERED. "Get mad" at GOD or YOURSELVES for being UNWILLING to FOLLOW as INSTRUCTED or NOT LIKING the INSTRUCTION. I have simply POINTED IT OUT.


I propose that WE have ALL been DUPED to the point that MOST would oppose the VALIDITY of these very words of Christ. Most will INSIST that these words have NO MEANING. Most will INSIST that things are somehow "DIFFERENT NOW" than then. That somehow, through some MYSTICAL and MAGICAL manner, these words offered by Christ no longer MEAN what they meant THEN. And that is EXACTLY what led to the THEME of this thread. SO many with SO MANY DIFFERENT beliefs. But all, supposedly, according to ONE BOOK.


Funny, but I can discuss a Stephen King book with ten different people and ALL ten UNDERSTOOD the STORY. But when it comes to the BIBLE, I can discuss IT with ten different people and find that there are TEN DIFFERENT understandings. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?


I propose that it is ONLY possible by the TEN different people WANTING to read it in TEN DIFFERENT WAYS. And not a ONE OF THEM as instructed. For if the Holy Spirit is able to lead one to UNDERSTANDING, that understanding CANNOT be DIFFERENT for each it is revealed to.



It's possible that ten different people understand ten DIFFERENT PARTS of the Bible. But it is IMPOSSIBLE for ten different people to understand the SAME PARTS differently IN TRUTH.


A body that is in disorder cannot function AS A BODY. A body made up of nothing but HEADS is NOT EVEN A BODY. It is nothing other than a GROUP of HEADS. And if all TOES, then nothing other than a PILE OF TOES.


It takes EACH of the MEMBERS FITTING JOINTLY TOGETHER to FORM a BODY. And that means that each member MUST know it's PLACE. And it also means that each member have a COMMON understanding of THE BODY itself.


Or, do you BELIEVE that what Christ instructed is IMPOSSIBLE? When He instructs us to be RIGHTEOUS like God is righteous or when He instructs us to OVERCOME as HE OVERCAME, are His words IMPOSSIBLE to follow?



It would seem that to MANY, the answer would be: "It doesn't really MATTER". As if they THINK they can be FOLLOWERS without actually FOLLOWING ANYTHING except their OWN DESIRES.


Matthew 7:


12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


I would say that the MANY are unwilling to recognize what the word FEW means. Either that, or Christ didn't REALLY MEAN what He said. Which are YOU? One that doesn't understand the meaning of FEW or one that believes Christ didn't really MEAN what He said?


Blessings,


MEC

 

[Imagican]

OP's post hinges on the idea that correct "belief" is the basis for truth.

What is that isn't true at all?

Nope, Just the OPPOSITE, in fact. Correct BELIEF is DEPENDENT upon TRUTH.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

The Bible specifically states that Jesus is the Word, so how can we all "believe" in Him (Word) and view the Word so differently? The fact is there are over 30 or 40 ( I forget exactly) THOUSAND "Christian" Denominations or groups of belief. The fact is that only ONE can be correct. Straight is the gate...

Oh my. Someone that indicates that they read at least enough to understand the PRINCIPLE I have attempted to SHARE.

I AGREE completely but am compelled to add this: Only one COULD be correct. I don't KNOW if a single one IS. But at MOST, ONLY one COULD be correct.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

And, if you have been "duped"........... have you hated your life, or something? And what would have made any difference, anyway?

I have been CONDITIONED from the time I could UNDERSTAND words being spoken AROUND ME.

It started with my parents and sibling and then began to become RAMPANT the moment I was placed into public school. The moment I first sat in front of a TELEVISION set. The moment I started READING books written for instruction or entertainment.

Have I HATED my life. That question requires TWO separate answers.

Yes, I hate EVERYTHING about my life that is CONTRARY to the TRUTH. I hate everything about THIS WORLD that is contrary to the TRUTH.

But I thank God every day that He saw FIT to grant me LIFE. It's what I have DONE WITH it that I regret. Especially those 'things' that were done DIRECTLY in opposition to God Himself.

Then comes ALL those things I have done in opposition to MY NEIGHBORS.

Let me offer THIS in the hopes that it may find some MEANING in YOUR heart:

2 Corinthians 7:

10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Once again, I see AGAIN, this 'oh well' mentality that so many seem to hold so dear. EVERYTHING could have made A difference.

If my parents had been God fearing followers of Christ. or If someone other than my parents had come along and introduced me to Christ as a child. If I had NOT been SO IN TO ME I may well have picked the Bible up and read it SOONER.

But, HEY, I am a FIRM believer that I would NEVER have come to the place I am NOW if not for what it TOOK to 'get here'.

Am I DUPED? MayBE. I am certainly NOT 'the follower' I SEE I am INSTRUCTED to BE according to the words of CHRIST Himself. I STILL don't LOVE my neighbor AS myself. I STILL don't treat EVERYONE as I WISH to be treated. I still catch myself LUSTING after "THINGS" in this world. I still catch myself being TEMPTED in all sorts of manner. Many times FALLING to temptation.

And that is what has LED to this thread.

But the BIGGEST difference that I perceive between myself and other is THIS: I don't THINK that I have been deceived to the point that I HAVE ALLOWED MYSELF TO BECOME BLINDED TO THE TRUTH. Even though the TRUTH causes me to suffer, I STILL ACCEPT IT regardless.

I am STILL working out MY Salvation through FEAR and TREMBLING. Whereas MOST that I communicate with that claim to be followers seem to have come to the belief they have ALREADY WORKED OUT THEIR SALVATION.

I wonder is someone could TEACH me to 'get over' the FEAR and TREMBLING and simply learn to BELIEVE that I have ALREADY received that which hasn't been EARNED yet?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

That's based on people who go to internet discussion forums. There are no two people on internet discussion forums that agree about anything.

I have to ask then:

Have you found two people ANYWHERE that are in utter agreement in their theology? And if so, could you direct me TO them? For you could not IMAGINE what a refreshing experience it would be to MEET two people that are in utter agreement concerning the Bible or God or Jesus. I haven't even been able to find two people that are EVEN CLOSE.

Blessings,

MEC