What if the Protestant reformation never happened?

[bbbbbbb]

I never said that Spain or Italy or France were Protestant nations

I said that Protestantism effected all of Europe....

like you could say "well in the 1950's only 3% of the people in the USA were of Russian ethnicity and only 6% were members of the Communist Party, the creation of the USSR has no effect on the USA in the 1950's"
no, that is just not the case
the USSR effected the global political climate and it also acted as a foil that we used to hold our self in contrast to.

I think your point is well taken. To continue your example, although the percentage of Americans in China today is minimal, China has deeply imbibed American culture.

Does that mean that China is a Protestant nation? I think not. Does it mean that without America it would not be a secular nation? I think not. Does it mean that Protestantism is the means by which China has its present culture? I think not because all missionaries were evicted forcefully in 1949 with the success of Mao Tse Tung and the Long March.

So, to what might we attribute present-day culture in China? Is it the Culture Revolution of Chairman Mao? Not at all. If anything, current Chinese culture is the antithesis of the Cultural Revolution.

If you ask most educated people in China where the present culture springs from, they will readily acknowledge that it was through the massive economic reforms of Deng Xiaoping who was hardly a Protestant nor an American.

 

[Rhamiel]

I think your point is well taken. To continue your example, although the percentage of Americans in China today is minimal, China has deeply imbibed American culture.

Does that mean that China is a Protestant nation? I think not. Does it mean that without America it would not be a secular nation? I think not. Does it mean that Protestantism is the means by which China has its present culture? I think not because all missionaries were evicted forcefully in 1949 with the success of Mao Tse Tung and the Long March.

So, to what might we attribute present-day culture in China? Is it the Culture Revolution of Chairman Mao? Not at all. If anything, current Chinese culture is the antithesis of the Cultural Revolution.

If you ask most educated people in China where the present culture springs from, they will readily acknowledge that it was through the massive economic reforms of Deng Xiaoping who was hardly a Protestant nor an American.

China was influenced by domination from England, the opium wars,
China was influenced by Marxism, with Marx being from Protestant Germany and the father of Karl Marx was a Lutheran
many argue that Communism came about as a reaction against modern Capitalism, there are arguments that Capitalism, as we now have it and 19th century Capitalism in particular, was deeply influenced/supported by Protestantism.

like, we can not say what China, Catholicism or really anything would have looked like if Protestant Reformation never happened
it is like saying "what would the world look like if Islam never happened?"

it is just too big

looking at Catholic countries now, is looking at what Catholic countries look like after 500 years of the Protestant Reformation, something that had drastic effects on politics and thought in Europe and across the world for the past 500 years
500 years is a long time

 

[bbbbbbb]

China was influenced by domination from England, the opium wars,
China was influenced by Marxism, with Marx being from Protestant Germany and the father of Karl Marx was a Lutheran
many argue that Communism came about as a reaction against modern Capitalism, there are arguments that Capitalism, as we now have it and 19th century Capitalism in particular, was deeply influenced/supported by Protestantism.

like, we can not say what China, Catholicism or really anything would have looked like if Protestant Reformation never happened
it is like saying "what would the world look like if Islam never happened?"

it is just too big

looking at Catholic countries now, is looking at what Catholic countries look like after 500 years of the Protestant Reformation, something that had drastic effects on politics and thought in Europe and across the world for the past 500 years
500 years is a long time

Well, Adolph Hitler was a good Catholic boy as was his pal Mussolini. Vladimir Lenin's father was a devout member of the Russian Orthodox Church. It is obvious that they were deeply influenced by their Protestant backgrounds which made them the men that they became.

To weave into twentieth-century history and its leading figures the dreaded influence of Protestantism is an amazing task which stretches the credibility of those of us who lived through at least half of the century. It is about as credible to me as working up a vast Jesuit conspiracy to dominate the world.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm quite aware that they worked against the reformation. That is not the conspiracy i was speaking of. But you already knew that. It's that whole harlot of Babylon thing I was speaking of. you know the National Sunday Law and all that rot.

Were you thinking that my question about the Jesuits being started to stop the Catholics that were protesting and reforming the church ,.... was a reference to Rev 17?? or the mark of the beast or ....???

How so???

 

[Rhamiel]

Well, Adolph Hitler was a good Catholic boy as was his pal Mussolini. Vladimir Lenin's father was a devout member of the Russian Orthodox Church. It is obvious that they were deeply influenced by their Protestant backgrounds which made them the men that they became.

To weave into twentieth-century history and its leading figures the dreaded influence of Protestantism is an amazing task which stretches the credibility of those of us who lived through at least half of the century. It is about as credible to me as working up a vast Jesuit conspiracy to dominate the world.

I am not saying that it was all "dreaded"
like we would have some utopia if it was not for the Protestant Reformation
lol it sure wasn't a utopia before or after the Reformation

I am saying we can not know

like the "butterfly effect" where the beating of the wings of a butterfly can lead the a hurricane on the other side of the globe
well the Reformation was not a butterfly, it was an atomic bomb

maybe China would have been even worse? Maybe instead of the wars of Religion decimating the Holy Roman Empire the Germanic States would have dominated Europe culturally and politically to the determent of all of Western Culture?
maybe maybe maybe maybe

this is not a conspiracy
this is just, the Reformation is a huge thing
conspiracy denotes that it was organized

for example, many people have pointed out that Manifest Destiny in the USA was driven by certain lines of Lutheran and Calvinist thought
would English colonization had been the same if England was still a Catholic Country? were the pros and cons of French and Spanish colonization merely cultural or how much did religion play in the differences?
what would the world look like if Germany, England, and the USA were drastically different places and had been drastically different for 500 years....
lol how can we even begin to answer that.... and a different England and Germany mean a different Europe, they do not exist in a vacuum
a different USA means a different world

also all through the middle ages we had a power play between Popes and Kings, with the upper hand going back and forth, really this kind of ended once countries saw that if they did not like the Pope, could just become Protestant, so that game of politics would have gone on at least a little while longer?

England had the Glorious Revolution, this was motivated in part by fears of the Stuart being pro-Catholic (James II married a Catholic princess)

 

[bbbbbbb]

I am not saying that it was all "dreaded"
like we would have some utopia if it was not for the Protestant Reformation
lol it sure wasn't a utopia before or after the Reformation

I am saying we can not know

like the "butterfly effect" where the beating of the wings of a butterfly can lead the a hurricane on the other side of the globe
well the Reformation was not a butterfly, it was an atomic bomb

maybe China would have been even worse? Maybe instead of the wars of Religion decimating the Holy Roman Empire the Germanic States would have dominated Europe culturally and politically to the determent of all of Western Culture?
maybe maybe maybe maybe

this is not a conspiracy
this is just, the Reformation is a huge thing
conspiracy denotes that it was organized

for example, many people have pointed out that Manifest Destiny in the USA was driven by certain lines of Lutheran and Calvinist thought
would English colonization had been the same if England was still a Catholic Country? were the pros and cons of French and Spanish colonization merely cultural or how much did religion play in the differences?
what would the world look like if Germany, England, and the USA were drastically different places and had been drastically different for 500 years....
lol how can we even begin to answer that.... and a different England and Germany mean a different Europe, they do not exist in a vacuum
a different USA means a different world

also all through the middle ages we had a power play between Popes and Kings, with the upper hand going back and forth, really this kind of ended once countries saw that if they did not like the Pope, could just become Protestant, so that game of politics would have gone on at least a little while longer?

England had the Glorious Revolution, this was motivated in part by fears of the Stuart being pro-Catholic (James II married a Catholic princess)

Yes, I do agree with you. The problem is so vast as to defy all of our attempts at logic to determine the probable outcome.

 

[Rhamiel]

OK, that is all I was saying

I was not trying to blame Chinese Communism on Protestantism
I am just saying that there was some interaction between the two and who knows what would have happened if things were different

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It hasn't ended....reform is a continual process.

There are times, of course, where something started as a reform to another event - yet in time, the actual thing which reform was based on ends up transforming into something else entirely....and thus, that thing can no longer be called what it once was.

The Protestant Reformation really isn't the same as what exists today as a RESULT of the Protestant Reformation - and thus, it can be said that the Protestant Reformation ended since it has evolved into something else that is being reformed today.

 

[bbbbbbb]

There are times, of course, where something started as a reform to another event - yet in time, the actual thing which reform was based on ends up transforming into something else entirely....and thus, that thing can no longer be called what it once was.

The Protestant Reformation really isn't the same as what exists today as a RESULT of the Protestant Reformation - and thus, it can be said that the Protestant Reformation ended since it has evolved into something else that is being reformed today.

This can be equally said of all denominations including your own.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

This can be equally said of all denominations including your own.

To be clear..

Unless it was the case that all denominations had in their past something called "The Protestant Reformation", it really cannot be equally said. Of course, it can be said that changes occur in bodies - and no one ever said (if trying to speak in regards to my camp) that Orthodoxy has not had changes or developments take place.

But the context of this thread is the Protestant Reformation - and thus, that is the focus. The comment made that was responded to was noting where the Protestant Reformation has not ended - and thus, that is where things are addressed. To say "The Protestant Reformation is still going" is something that should be considered when realizing the context/background and make-up of what the Protestant Reformation was even about is something that really ended a long time ago - more shared on that in Major theological differences of Reformation & Evangelicalism? (as shared here or here in Protestant Reformation vs Primitive Restoration..alongside Orthodoxy and Anglicanism Ecumenical Dialogue and in Church/Seminaries & Exclusion of Minority: Why are Blacks/3rd World insights ignored?)

Orthodox did not have a Protestant Reformation that is said to have never ended (as much of the Reformation was explicitly anti-Papist and many of the doctrines, e.g. purgatory and indulgences, were not adopted in the East - even as there was some correspondence between German Reformers and the Patriarch that exists, as with much of that dialogue being lost to history and not remembered with how the East wasn't truly having the same battles as other Protestants were) - although it can be easily be said that there were reforms that did take place and changes that have occurred in differing ways when it comes to liturgy or other developments - and of course, in the 700s and 800s there was a Protestant-like movement in Byzantium called Iconoclasm that was eventually squelched (despite all the damage that occurred - and unfortunately, the Protestant Reformation later adopted Iconoclasm again ).

 

[Albion]

There are times, of course, where something started as a reform to another event - yet in time, the actual thing which reform was based on ends up transforming into something else entirely....and thus, that thing can no longer be called what it once was.

The Protestant Reformation really isn't the same as what exists today as a RESULT of the Protestant Reformation .

It's more accurate to say that the passing of half a millennium saw additional changes all round in society, and these would have happened with or without the Reformation.

In addition, we tend to forget that the Reformation DID bring about a reform of the Roman Catholic Church as well as produce separate, reformed Christian denominations. We don't always notice this internal change, however, because it took the Vatican 500 years to admit that these reforms pioneered by the Lutheran, Reformed, and Anglican churches in the 16th Century were actually needed.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Have you ever listened to a surround sound system with only one of the five (or seven) speakers plugged in? It doesn't sound too clear. We listen to the entire system, including sub-woofer.

Great analogy as it concerns the sound system There was another I heard that blessed me when it came to seeing things in the same way one had with a sound board - one dial that gets turned in order to get the tune right (so that the true jam can occur) cannot be done in isolation - one must turn all the dials and have them in unision to have a true sound that's worth hearing..

 

[Albion]

Great analogy

Excuse me for interrupting this love fest but you listen to only one speaker while he listens to only one of the others. And that's supposed to be surround sound?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

We been reforming for 2000 years. The human portion of the Church is never perfect enough.

Thank God for grace

 

[Albion]

Not certain what the "love feast" comment was about - but whatever.

That's right. It's not important enough to cause you to search around for a cute reply.

Seeing that this has nothing to do with the actual analogy (seeing that it was never shown where someone listens to one speaker), it is what it is. As it is, it's bad enough having one trying to even talk on what sound systems one listen (or attempt to assume they listen to the whole sound system) and yet they don't even use the radio or hear properly - as it concerns trying to critique Catholic (or Orthodox)

Let me make it easier for you. The notion that your two churches, separated for a thousand years longer than the Protestants and Roman Catholics have been, are somehow peas in a pod or a great example of church unity, is laughable it's so ludicrous.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

That's right. It's not important enough to cause you to search around for a cute reply.

Like I said, if you want someone to pay attention to you, all one needs to do is ask. Being sarcastic on the matter really isn't necessary - nor is it really going to get you any real responses since it can come off passive aggressive.

Let me make it easier for you. They notion that your two churches, separated for a thousand years longer than the Protestants and Roman Catholics are somehow peas in a pod, united until the end, is laughable it's so ludicrous.

And as said before, till you actually deal with the fact that you don't come close to supporting the early Church as it was, you have little room to speak - and that is said in regards to you trying to critique Catholic (or Orthodox) but still supporting something as demonic as Freemasonry (as was already noted before ). There's ZERO basis in advocating that Freemasonry is able to be meshed with Biblical Christianity, seeing that it is anything but scriptural (i.e. the Unitarian Universalism present in it, the worship of Baphomet /demonic you realize the higher you go, the corruption in the Masonic temples, etc.) - and others already called you out on it before (as noted here, here, here, here and here and here/here among other places you've defended that which was not of Christ).

And again, even the Anglican Church (in regards to the Sydney Anglican Synod ) has spoken on the matter in condemning the issue (although that's different than the various smaller Continuing Anglican and independent Anglican church bodies that claim to be Anglican in faith, history, and practice while remaining outside the Anglican Communion ) - with this being noted repeatedly whenever I've spoken to Anglicans or worked with them and other Anglicans took time to mention it - that will always be an elephant in the room that needs to be dealt with if you're actually insistent in trying to speak to others, Bruh.

They notion that your two churches, separated for a thousand years longer than the Protestants and Roman Catholics are somehow peas in a pod, united until the end, is laughable it's so ludicrous.

Seriously, it'd behoove you to listen before you speak since it is humorous when one wishes to jump in trying to blast others and yet they don't even get the facts right before speaking.

For it's a very baseless trying to talk on Catholicism and Orthodoxy seeing that they are closest in connection with one another when it comes to continuity with the early Church and having longer history than the Protestant world. No one said they were united to the end - and thus, it was pointless for you to even attempt arguing as such.

What was said...

Have you ever listened to a surround sound system with only one of the five (or seven) speakers plugged in? It doesn't sound too clear. We listen to the entire system, including sub-woofer.

Great analogy as it concerns the sound system There was another I heard that blessed me when it came to seeing things in the same way one had with a sound board - one dial that gets turned in order to get the tune right (so that the true jam can occur) cannot be done in isolation - one must turn all the dials and have them in unision to have a true sound that's worth hearing..

Context, Alb.....context. Someone was speaking in regards to listening to Tradition as well as Scripture rather than standard "Sola Scriptura" mindset - and the analogy they gave was something that has been used in Orthodoxy as well as Catholicism..and Anglicans have done the same as well (as I already mentioned to you before in no uncertain terms). It's that simple..


What was noted was that the individual gave a good analogy when it comes to Apostolic/Ancient Christianity - and seeing where there already talks with unification, of course having that analogy goes in place with the way things are seen. Some of this has already been discussed elsewhere - as seen in places such as Should Oriental Orthodox and Catholic churches unite? - and other places, as seen in the following:

Let us give you some interesting videos of Eastern orthodox Patriarchs praying with the Bishop of Rome:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0lWL-V0N1U


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1wkQ37KvWM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZgHYZD6XV0

Many thanks for the videos being shared, as it is hard to ignore (for anyone not closing their eyes) where Orthodox and Catholics have worked together. It seems people treat the matter in the same way others did with the Post-Cold War era when others still were acting as if the Berlin Wall existed after it got torn down and others were beginning to discuss with one another.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLPR95g6ZGI​

Indeed. There's Pope Tawdros II, Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarch of St. Mark visiting Vatican and Pope Francis for several days.

And of course, his meeting with the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church ....

Pope Francis meets with leader of Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church - YouTube​

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/what_does_rome_need_to_do_part_1

Excellent podcast on the matter. Fr. Thomas Hopko was spot on..

The second one was good as well:

• What Does Rome Need To Do? - Part 2

And for others:

• Ancient Christian Witness: Leaving Rome

• Ancient Christian Witness: "Rome, Constantinople and Canterbury. Mother Churches?"

• Ancient Christian Witness: Rome, Constantinople and Canterbury part 2

• Ancient Christian Witness: Rome, Constantinople and Canterbury part 3

Additionally, I Found this from one of the ministries I follow and thought it had some good points:

• Can East & West Coexist With Married Priests? « Orthocath
• Metropolitan Kallistos on Orthodox-Catholic Dialogue « Orthocath
• What Can Orthodox and Catholics Teach Each Other? « Orthocath
• Flashback: Melkite–Orthodox Ecumenical Dialogue 25 Years Ago « Orthocath

Much of the discussion happening here seems similar to other discussions that have occurred before on the boards - such as places like Orthodoxy is Roman Catholic or Returning to the Orthodox faith? and The primacy of the Bishop of Rome as succesor of Saint Peter. ..or Mehmed the Conqueror and Gennadius II and several other places like the following:

• Byzantine Catholic

• Pope Francis I: A Friend to the Orthodox?

• Western Rite Orthodoxy - a Stepping Stone

• http://www.christianforums.com/t7617850-2/#post59353592
• Catholics Receiving Holy Communion In Eastern Orthodox Churches

Some of it gets interesting when considering the many within Oriental Catholicism who have practices that are neither Eastern or Roman - and thus, in a world of their own on many levels (as is the case with the Chaldean Catholics and others who often get forgotten whenever the discussions on Eastern Catholics come up and it seems there is a lot of generalization occurring which ignores nuance).
.

​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Anglicanism is the "state" expression of Christianity in England and yet, no one in this day and age is persecuted for being a non-conformist.

Never mind John Bunyan spent over half his life in prison for not conforming to the Anglican way.

It is unfortunate to witness what occurred to John Bunyan in regards to his experiences with the Anglican Church - historically, we know that in the 1650s most English Christians were Anglican paedobaptists and that under Cromwell’s new policy of tolerance, the Baptists were beginning to flourish while other Englishmen grew nervous on it - with Bunyan belonging to a small Baptist church of about 60 people called independents because the Anglican Church — the only church sanctioned by the English government — did not control them. Moreover, it is sad to witness (after he broke the Anglican rule forbidding preaching outside the church and preached on the streets of Bedford to crowds of people from different social classes) where he was accused of illegally establishing private meeting sites and illegal preaching...leading to being persecuted by the Anglican Church.

Of course, from what I recall, as if all aspects of Anglican life were what he was against (or what he was persecuted for). Some of his books such as "Pilgrim's Progress" and "The Holy War" (both excellent reads) do seem to be influenced by some of his experiences with the Anglican Church - For reference:

• John Bunyan | Digital Puritan Press

• JOHN BUNYAN & HIS ENGLAND, 1628-1688 - Google Books

• John Bunyan and English Nonconformity - Richard Greaves - Google Books

 

[bbbbbbb]

Actually, seventeenth-century England was seething with Non-Comformity of all types, not just the Baptists. There were Catholics, Quakers, Puritans, Pilgrims, Presbyterians, to name just a handful.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Excuse me for interrupting this love fest but you listen to only one speaker while he listens to only one of the others. And that's supposed to be surround sound?

Feeling neglected?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

And here I thought I was the only one baffled by that.




.

Noted the context of that earlier (if it was missed) as seen in #301. As said before, it's hard to really hear someone in their critique of Orthodoxy or Catholicism (if aggressive on it) in the name of what is Biblical/true when they are knee-deep in things far more problematic - and hence, there was a pause done in order to take time to note the issue before moving back to the subject of the OP (i.e. the Protestant Reformation).