What if the Protestant reformation never happened?

[rockytopva]

Define 'controlling spirit'.

Control and domination... The Spirit of Jezebel. This is when a religion is made state religion and people are persecuted for not worshiping in the state religion.

 

[Targaryen]

Anglicanism is the "state" expression of Christianity in England and yet, no one in this day and age is persecuted for being a non-conformist.
Catholicism is the "state" religion in only one place in the world, Vatican city...which has a 100% Catholic population yet tourists are not barred from visiting or persecuted when they step on Vatican soil for being non-Catholic.

Your seven church idea loses steam in the light of actual fact

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Control and domination... The Spirit of Jezebel. This is when a religion is made state religion and people are persecuted for not worshiping in the state religion.

Thanks. I was wondering if I should agree or take a switch to you.

I posted my post as it would be nice if we could learn to work things out rather than to give up on each other. But I'm aware that's not always possible.

I've never considered Luther a reformer. I think he was a protester of things he saw as wrong.. Now Calvin, he was a reformer. That is not a compliment toward Calvin.

 

[rockytopva]

Anglicanism is the "state" expression of Christianity in England and yet, no one in this day and age is persecuted for being a non-conformist.
Catholicism is the "state" religion in only one place in the world, Vatican city...which has a 100% Catholic population yet tourists are not barred from visiting or persecuted when they step on Vatican soil for being non-Catholic.

Your seven church idea loses steam in the light of actual fact

Never mind John Bunyan spent over half his life in prison for not conforming to the Anglican way.

 

[Tangible]

I've never considered Luther a reformer. I think he was a protester of things he saw as wrong.

Indeed. Had the Roman church not responded in an authoritarian and reactionary manner, the Western Church might have remained largely intact.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Indeed. Had the Roman church not responded in an authoritarian and reactionary manner, the Western Church might have remained largely intact.

I don't think they get that to this day.

 

[Targaryen]

I don't think they get that to this day.

No, which is still why some facets of protestant society I guess takes a similar reactionary stance towards the Roman church.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by rockytopva

Control and domination... The Spirit of Jezebel. This is when a religion is made state religion and people are persecuted for not worshiping in the state religion.
​

Thanks. I was wondering if I should agree or take a switch to you.

I posted my post as it would be nice if we could learn to work things out rather than to give up on each other. But I'm aware that's not always possible.

I've never considered Luther a reformer. I think he was a protester of things he saw as wrong..

Now Calvin, he was a reformer. That is not a compliment toward Calvin.

Always liked his beard



..............

Tiny Tim - Tiptoe Through The Tulips - YouTube


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[Root of Jesse]

Quite so. The Catholic Counter-Reformation is an excellent example of that. The Catholic Church still continues to reform itself, although not according to scripture only whereas most Reformed bodies are being reformed with holy scripture as their lodestone.

Why do you think this is a requirement for reform??? I mean, look at all the "Scripture Only" churches, which one can we point to as THE ONE???

 

[Root of Jesse]

Glad to hear y'all are trying to catch up with the Protestant Reformation





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No need to catch up. We been reforming for 2000 years. The human portion of the Church is never perfect enough.

 

[Root of Jesse]

What if the Protestant Reformation never happened... Well I believe the churches as seven...

1. Ephesus - Apostolic - Left their first love
2. Smyrna - Martyr - Foxes has the Roman persecutions as ten
3. Pergamos - Orthodox - A pyrgros is a tower, needed in the dark ages
4. Thyatira - Catholic - Jezebel controlled and dominated
5. Sardis - Protestant - A sardius is a gem - beautiful yet hard and rigid
6. Philadelphia - Wesleyan / Pentecostal - To get sanctified was to acquire it with love
7. Laodica - Charismatic / Word of Faith

Not only did we have to escape the control and domination of the Thyatirean age, but of the Sardisean as well. Martin Luther and John Calvin could be just as mean and ruthless as the Cathoilics before. Just check into the history of the ana-Baptists. And as the old German proverb goes, that in the name of God begins all mischief.

These are the effects of fallen angels in our midst. Even in my small Pentecostal Holiness denomination we started out great when we were small, but once we got Bible cemeteries, oops I meant seminaries it was all downhill from there.

Bottom line, power corrupts men. In the song Sympathy for the Devil - The Rolling Stones... Satan revals himseof as a game player. He delights in getting in the Christian church and spreading his mischief.

Sympathy for the Devil - The Rolling Stones...

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long years
Stole many a man's soul and faith

And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made d*** sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game

I stuck around St. Petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain

I rode a tank
Held a general's rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah
(woo woo, woo woo)

I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
(woo woo, woo woo)

I shouted out,
"Who killed the Kennedys?"
When after all
It was you and me
(who who, who who)

Let me please introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached Bombay
(woo woo, who who)

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
(who who)
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby
(who who, who who)

Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint
(who who, who who)

So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
(woo woo)
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste, um yeah
(woo woo, woo woo)

Ah, someone who gets his theology at the Church of the Rolling Stones...make that 35,001... It is true about Satan wiggling his way in, just read the Screwtape Letters.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Never mind John Bunyan spent over half his life in prison for not conforming to the Anglican way.

Thomas More died for not conforming. But that's a long time ago, and we know we're dealing with worse now.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I don't think they get that to this day.

The problem with this is that it confuses the humanity in the Church with the authority of the Church. But there were errors on both sides. Certainly, the Church herself could have been more pastoral, but Luther could have done things differently, as well.

The Church is always that way to those in her authority, though, meaning priests, monks, and friars, and such. This is an attempt to be true to the faith. Luther, in fact, was a monk who went astray. Putting that into today, I can tell you about a priest who, it seems, went astray. Several, really, but I can focus on one. He was accused of having an affair with a woman in his employ, embezzlement, and drug addiction. To settle the issue, the order wanted to investigate, but were unwilling to give the priest any benefit of the doubt. They wanted to take away his ministry and his right to perform priestly functions. They demanded he submit, and he did not. To this day, he's basically disappeared. To many of us Catholics, this makes it appear as though he's guilty. In another case of similar accusations (the priest was accused of self-aggrandizement, carrying on affairs, and such), while investigations were taking place, he was restricted from performing priestly duties. In this case he submitted, and eventually was exonerated. But in his humility, he was proven innocent. The first priest, had he been so humble as to submit to the will of his superiors, may have been vindicated, but even if he was not, that he had committed nothing illegal, he could have confessed, and gone forward.
There is some reason to test people's actions...that's why they're still testing Medugorje.

 

[rockytopva]

Ah, someone who gets his theology at the Church of the Rolling Stones...make that 35,001... It is true about Satan wiggling his way in, just read the Screwtape Letters.

I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. - 1 John 2:13

I think the challenge of overcoming Satan is something that has to dealt with in every young Christians life.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Why do you think this is a requirement for reform??? I mean, look at all the "Scripture Only" churches, which one can we point to as THE ONE???

This is something you will probably never understand. We Protestants do not care a fig about having one religious organization which we would treat as God, nor one human who we would revere as Christ's representative on the earth.

 

[Root of Jesse]

This is something you will probably never understand. We Protestants do not care a fig about having one religious organization which we would treat as God, nor one human who we would revere as Christ's representative on the earth.

And likewise, you will probably never understand that Jesus instituted it just this way, though I don't know about treating a human organization about God-that's just your idea...
But ok, so we believe that Scripture and Tradition and Magisterium is "Faith". And you believe Scripture alone is "Faith". So, you limit, for yourselves, how God may speak to humanity.

Have you ever listened to a surround sound system with only one of the five (or seven) speakers plugged in? It doesn't sound too clear. We listen to the entire system, including sub-woofer.

 

[BobRyan]

What would society be like today?

Would there still be Jesuits? Or maybe Loyola would have never started them.

Would we all still be praying to the dead?

Would we all be seeking to pay for indulgences to get loved ones out of mythical purgatory?

Would we even think we needed Bibles at all??

 

[Rhamiel]

This is something you will probably never understand. We Protestants do not care a fig about having one religious organization which we would treat as God, nor one human who we would revere as Christ's representative on the earth.

I think that the Balkanization of Protestantism has led to the Secularist mindset that the West has now
this has led to the removal of religion from the public sphere
falling in church attendance
falling number of people who self identify as Christian
the idea that non-Christian religions are of equal dignity as Christianity

now this has also led to good things
such as an acceptance of religious freedom
but Secularism has also led to a lot of bad things

Would there still be Jesuits? Or maybe Loyola would have never started them.

Would we all still be praying to the dead?

Would we all be seeking to pay for indulgences to get loved ones out of mythical purgatory?

Would we even think we needed Bibles at all??

the abuse of indulgences was not as wide spread as people would like to think
there is no reason to think that this problem would not have been dealt with in time even without the Protestant Reformation

 

[rockytopva]

Ah, someone who gets his theology at the Church of the Rolling Stones...make that 35,001... It is true about Satan wiggling his way in, just read the Screwtape Letters.

I think any kind of doctrine or denomination is a challenge to satans mind. He loves getting in there and messing with the programs.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

the abuse of indulgences was not as wide spread as people would like to think
there is no reason to think that this problem would not have been dealt with in time even without the Protestant Reformation

The selling of indulgences was approved by multiple popes and carried out by cardinals to the end of paying off debts (for simony!) and enriching the churches of Rome (which, admittedly, were in need of serious repair). Leo approved these sales right after Lateran V condemned them; there is simply no indication that the practice would have stopped.