What if the Protestant reformation never happened?

[Mama Kidogo]

Would there still be Jesuits? Or maybe Loyola would have never started them.

Would we all still be praying to the dead?

Would we all be seeking to pay for indulgences to get loved ones out of mythical purgatory?

Would we even think we needed Bibles at all??

Yes I reckon there would still be the order of Jesuits in either event.
The Saints are not dead.

Some call it purgatory and some call it soul sleep. Errors have always been around.

Pretty sure the Church has found a need for the Bible since it was put into a single book and even before.

 

[BobRyan]

I thought Loyola created the Jesuits to halt the bleeding from the Catholic reformation movement of the protesting Catholics. Did they have some other charter?

 

[Rhamiel]

The selling of indulgences was approved by multiple popes and carried out by cardinals to the end of paying off debts (for simony!) and enriching the churches of Rome (which, admittedly, were in need of serious repair). Leo approved these sales right after Lateran V condemned them; there is simply no indication that the practice would have stopped.

well there have been other problems that the Church has had that have been addressed and corrected, mostly monastic communities have acted as centers for reform.
Franciscans, Jesuits, Dominicans, Carmelites, Benedictines
all have acted in this capacity in different ways at different times.

you say you have no reason to think that this problem would be dealt with
well it was already condemned by councils
and history shows that this problem was not equally bad in all places

 

[Mama Kidogo]

I thought Loyola created the Jesuits to halt the bleeding from the Catholic reformation movement of the protesting Catholics. Did they have some other charter?

I think education was and is their main charter. But then, I don't go for some conspiracies and eschatology theories.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

well there have been other problems that the Church has had that have been addressed and corrected, mostly monastic communities have acted as centers for reform.
Franciscans, Jesuits, Dominicans, Carmelites, Benedictines
all have acted in this capacity in different ways at different times.

you say you have no reason to think that this problem would be dealt with
well it was already condemned by councils
and history shows that this problem was not equally bad in all places

And that's exactly what Lutheran, an Augustinian monk, called for: a council. Obviously that didn't turn out so well.

In any case, the prior conciliar declarations had no discernible effect and there was seemingly no interest on the part of the church hierarchy in address the problem. After all, they were invested in it. And by they, I'm not only including generations of popes and cardinals, but the Dominicans as well (Dominicans like Johann Tetzl).

 

[MoreCoffee]

And that's exactly what Lutheran, an Augustinian monk, called for: a council. Obviously that didn't turn out so well.

In any case, the prior conciliar declarations had no discernible effect and there was seemingly no interest on the part of the church hierarchy in address the problem. After all, they were invested in it. And by they, I'm not only including generations of popes and cardinals, but the Dominicans as well (Dominicans like Johann Tetzl).

The Catholic Church did have a council related to Martin Luther but not quite the one he was wanting. Trent was a milestone in Catholic teaching because it had so many errors to refute and so many reforms to make to church practises and to abuses of proper church practise, such as incorrectly implying that financial donations given in fulfilment of an indulgence were payments for indulgences or that indulgences could effect the forgiveness of sins not yet committed (which seems to have been one of the things Luther thought was happening). But Trent came many years into the Protestant revolt and related reformation so it was, in effect, too late to heal the breach.

 

[Rhamiel]

I think education was and is their main charter. But then, I don't go for some conspiracies and eschatology theories.

that is not really a conspiracy theory
the Jesuits did play a big role in the counter reformation

education and evangelism were main focuses, both in Europe (counter reformation) and as evangelization in Asia, Africa and the Americas

who knows how that order would have advanced and changed if the Reformation never happened, it is possible that it might not have been formed

 

[BobRyan]

I think education was and is their main charter.

Not according to actual history. Loyal was trying to stop the Catholic reformation - and thought that one way to do it was to better indoctrinate -

Recall that Luther was not educated by Jesuits. He did not need a Jesuit school - they already had universities.

Founded in 1534, the Society of Jesus or the Jesuits, formed the backbone of the Catholic or Counter Reformation. The Jesuits combined the ideas of traditional monastic discipline with a dedication to teaching and preaching. Why they did this is pretty clear -- they wanted to win back converts. As a brotherhood or society, the Jesuits sought to bypass local corruption and appealed to the papacy to leading international movement -- they would not attach themselves to local bishops or local authorities. The purpose of this international movement was to revive a Catholic or universal Christianity.​

As theologians, the Jesuits highlighted one central flaw in Protestant theology, that of predestination

Hint - every fact of history is not "a conspiracy" just because it reveals some truth about the origin of Jesuits.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

Not according to actual history. Loyal was trying to stop the Catholic reformation - and thought that one way to do it was to better indoctrinate -

Recall that Luther was not educated by Jesuits. He did not need a Jesuit school - they already had universities.

Hint - every fact of history is not "a conspiracy" just because it reveals some truth about the origin of Jesuits.


in Christ,

Bob

Ignatius Loyola wanted to evangelise the world and to defend and obey the pope. Let me show you:

Ignatius Loyola

Ignatius Loyola founded the Jesuits (the Society of Jesus). The Jesuits were one of the major spearheads of the Counter-Reformation. The work done by Ignatius Loyola was seen as an important counter to Martin Luther and John Calvin.

Ignatius Loyola was born in 1491 into a wealthy noble family. He was educated as a knight. Like many young men from his background, Loyola joined the army. In May 1521, he was wounded at the Battle of Pamplona while fighting against France. While Loyola recovered from his wounds he underwent a spiritual conversion. After reading about the lives of the Saints and of Christ, Loyola concluded that his life had been a sham and he decided to reform it. After claiming to have seen a vision of the Virgin Mary and the baby Jesus he went to the shrine of Our Lady at Montserrat in Aragon and became a hermit living in a cave near Mantua in 1522. He spent his time in rags confessing and scourging himself whilst helping the sick. "I will follow like a puppy dog if I can only find a way to salvation." Loyola threw himself at the mercy of God. He devoted hours each day to prayer and when he was not doing this he tended to the sick and poor.

In 1523, Loyola travelled to the Holy Land in an attempt to convert the Moors. However, he was sent back by the Franciscans to Italy. Loyola spent the next seven years learning Theology and Latin at Barcelona, Alcala and Salamanca universities and after this Loyola went to the college of Montaigu in Paris. He arrived in Paris at the same time as John Calvin was leaving!

His university education ended in 1535. During his time of studying Loyola collected eight followers who shared his beliefs. In August 1534, they swore obedience to the Pope and also took vows of poverty and chastity. Loyola and his followers determined to dedicate their lives as missionaries to the Holy Land.

On September 27th, 1540, the Society for Jesus received formal recognition from Pope Paul III. Loyola had been ordained as a priest in 1537 and he spent much time in Rome where he organised the work of the Jesuits as the order’s first General. Loyola had become convinced that he could not do his work within an existing order, hence his determination to start his own.

Loyola ensured that the Jesuit movement was highly disciplined and that all followers knew by heart his ‘Spiritual Exercises’ and ‘Constitution’. Education and self-examination were at the heart of the movement and after years of training, a Jesuit was considered fully prepared to carry out his work in the world.

By the time of Loyola’s death in 1556, there were an estimated 1,000 Jesuits organised into eleven units. Nine of these units were in Europe, one was in Brazil and the other was in the Far East.

Symptomatic of the training initiated by Loyola was the work done by the likes of John Gerrard, a Jesuit who worked in England. Gerrard was caught and imprisoned in the Tower of London where he was tortured. Despite this, Gerrard was one of the few men to escape from this fortress. Rather than leave for the relative safety of Europe, he remained in England to continue with his work.

Another who set the highest standards for the Jesuits was Francis Xavier. He was one of the original followers of Loyola and was one of the greatest missionaries of all time. In 1541, he was invited to go to the East Indies by John III of Portugal. Xavier was from an aristocratic family yet he found himself on a filthy ship devastated by fever. He washed, scrubbed and cooked for all the people on board. He went to Goa, Travancore, Malacca, Molucca Isles, Sri Lanka and Japan. Xavier eventually died near Hong Kong thus failing in his wish to get to China. Xavier very much lived up to the standards imposed on the Jesuits by Loyola. He travelled extensively in great hardship but it is estimated that Xavier converted more than 700,000 people to the Catholic faith.

Ignatius Loyola’s Jesuits transformed the Roman Catholic Church in terms of quality and they became a vital part of the Counter-Reformation.

Ignatius Loyola was canonised in 1622.​

-- Ignatius Loyola​

 

[BobRyan]

Until the Pope abolished the order forever in the late 18th century "by all the fullness of his apostolic power".

Combating the Protestant reformation had sort of backfired.

The Catholic Church was facing the crisis of the Protestant Reformation when the Jesuits were founded. By seeking to break away from Rome, the Protestants encouraged efforts at reform within Catholicism. The Council of Trent clarified Catholic doctrine, the popes largely turned from political power games and art patronage to religious revival, new religious orders sprung up—Capuchins, Ursulines, and Oratorians, besides the Jesuits. ...
The first Jesuits made their mark as preachers, convent reformers, and missionaries, but in 1548 the Jesuits opened their first college intended for lay students at Messina in Sicily.

Lateran IV -- calling for extermination of infidels - heretics ... (you name it) in 1213

The Fourth Council of the Lateran was convoked by Pope Innocent III with the papal bull of April 19, 1213,

Inquisition 1478

Spanish Inquisition (Inquisición española), was established in 1478 by Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile. It was intended to maintain Catholic orthodoxy in their kingdoms and to replace the Medieval Inquisition, which was under Papal control. It became the most substantive of the three different manifestations of the wider Christian Inquisition along with the Roman Inquisition and Portuguese Inquisition.

Jesuit Growth - 1545-1600

Initial Jesuit growth was slow in northern Europe but rapid in Spain and most rapid in Portugal and Sicily,

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Targaryen]

Ignatius Loyola wanted to evangelise the world and to defend and obey the pope. Let me show you:

Ignatius Loyola

Ignatius Loyola founded the Jesuits (the Society of Jesus). The Jesuits were one of the major spearheads of the Counter-Reformation. The work done by Ignatius Loyola was seen as an important counter to Martin Luther and John Calvin.

Ignatius Loyola was born in 1491 into a wealthy noble family. He was educated as a knight. Like many young men from his background, Loyola joined the army. In May 1521, he was wounded at the Battle of Pamplona while fighting against France. While Loyola recovered from his wounds he underwent a spiritual conversion. After reading about the lives of the Saints and of Christ, Loyola concluded that his life had been a sham and he decided to reform it. After claiming to have seen a vision of the Virgin Mary and the baby Jesus he went to the shrine of Our Lady at Montserrat in Aragon and became a hermit living in a cave near Mantua in 1522. He spent his time in rags confessing and scourging himself whilst helping the sick. "I will follow like a puppy dog if I can only find a way to salvation." Loyola threw himself at the mercy of God. He devoted hours each day to prayer and when he was not doing this he tended to the sick and poor.

In 1523, Loyola travelled to the Holy Land in an attempt to convert the Moors. However, he was sent back by the Franciscans to Italy. Loyola spent the next seven years learning Theology and Latin at Barcelona, Alcala and Salamanca universities and after this Loyola went to the college of Montaigu in Paris. He arrived in Paris at the same time as John Calvin was leaving!

His university education ended in 1535. During his time of studying Loyola collected eight followers who shared his beliefs. In August 1534, they swore obedience to the Pope and also took vows of poverty and chastity. Loyola and his followers determined to dedicate their lives as missionaries to the Holy Land.

On September 27th, 1540, the Society for Jesus received formal recognition from Pope Paul III. Loyola had been ordained as a priest in 1537 and he spent much time in Rome where he organised the work of the Jesuits as the order’s first General. Loyola had become convinced that he could not do his work within an existing order, hence his determination to start his own.

Loyola ensured that the Jesuit movement was highly disciplined and that all followers knew by heart his ‘Spiritual Exercises’ and ‘Constitution’. Education and self-examination were at the heart of the movement and after years of training, a Jesuit was considered fully prepared to carry out his work in the world.

By the time of Loyola’s death in 1556, there were an estimated 1,000 Jesuits organised into eleven units. Nine of these units were in Europe, one was in Brazil and the other was in the Far East.

Symptomatic of the training initiated by Loyola was the work done by the likes of John Gerrard, a Jesuit who worked in England. Gerrard was caught and imprisoned in the Tower of London where he was tortured. Despite this, Gerrard was one of the few men to escape from this fortress. Rather than leave for the relative safety of Europe, he remained in England to continue with his work.

Another who set the highest standards for the Jesuits was Francis Xavier. He was one of the original followers of Loyola and was one of the greatest missionaries of all time. In 1541, he was invited to go to the East Indies by John III of Portugal. Xavier was from an aristocratic family yet he found himself on a filthy ship devastated by fever. He washed, scrubbed and cooked for all the people on board. He went to Goa, Travancore, Malacca, Molucca Isles, Sri Lanka and Japan. Xavier eventually died near Hong Kong thus failing in his wish to get to China. Xavier very much lived up to the standards imposed on the Jesuits by Loyola. He travelled extensively in great hardship but it is estimated that Xavier converted more than 700,000 people to the Catholic faith.

Ignatius Loyola’s Jesuits transformed the Roman Catholic Church in terms of quality and they became a vital part of the Counter-Reformation.

Ignatius Loyola was canonised in 1622.​

-- Ignatius Loyola​

MC, you forget though facts like that dont support EGW's tinhat "prophethood" and Bob is very pro-EGW

 

[MoreCoffee]

MC, you forget though facts like that dont support EGW's tinhat "prophethood" and Bob is very pro-EGW

I kind of guessed that BobRyan would see things differently; history is a pseudonym for Ellen White's spin on religion

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think that the Balkanization of Protestantism has led to the Secularist mindset that the West has now
this has led to the removal of religion from the public sphere
falling in church attendance
falling number of people who self identify as Christian
the idea that non-Christian religions are of equal dignity as Christianity

now this has also led to good things
such as an acceptance of religious freedom
but Secularism has also led to a lot of bad things

I will hardly defend Secularism, but I hasten to point out that Secularism has its roots in the Humanism of the Renaissance which preceded the Protestant Reformation.

We find enormous levels of secularization in societies which have had little or no influence of Protestantism. For example, the Catholic countries of Spain and France have some of the lowest statistics of church attendance in Christendom - much lower than the Protestant United States of America.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Not according to actual history. Loyal was trying to stop the Catholic reformation - and thought that one way to do it was to better indoctrinate -

Recall that Luther was not educated by Jesuits. He did not need a Jesuit school - they already had universities.

Hint - every fact of history is not "a conspiracy" just because it reveals some truth about the origin of Jesuits.


in Christ,

Bob

I'm quite aware that they worked against the reformation. That is not the conspiracy i was speaking of. But you already knew that. It's that whole harlot of Babylon thing I was speaking of. you know the National Sunday Law and all that rot.

 

[Rhamiel]

I will hardly defend Secularism, but I hasten to point out that Secularism has its roots in the Humanism of the Renaissance which preceded the Protestant Reformation.

We find enormous levels of secularization in societies which have had little or no influence of Protestantism. For example, the Catholic countries of Spain and France have some of the lowest statistics of church attendance in Christendom - much lower than the Protestant United States of America.

"societies that have little or no influence of Protestantism"

I doubt you can say that about ANY society on earth
and you definitely can not say that about any Western society

for example, the Bourbon monarchies were pressuring the Pope to get rid of the Jesuits.... some say that there were even threats to leave the Church if this was not agreed upon
would this threat have been taken as seriously if the Protestant Reformation never happened?

The Catholic Church had the Council of Trent in reaction to the Protestant Reformation
Europe had near a century of the "wars of religion"
Protestantism helped unify the Dutch resistance to Spanish occupation

we can look at differences in New World colonies under Protestant and Catholic European powers...

this is an old thread, but I am pretty sure I have pointed out that the Protestant Reformation is such a HUGE event that we can not even speculate what the world would look like now without it.

like the idea that it would look like the middle ages but with jet planes is kinda silly

Late Antiquity did not look like the Middle Ages, the Middle Ages did not look like the Renaissance

so I am not saying that secularism would not have happened
but I am saying that many secular scholars see the Reformation as a thing that helped bring about secularism
the idea that religion is purely a private thing IS a Protestant idea, the emphasis on the individual

 

[bbbbbbb]

"societies that have little or no influence of Protestantism"

I doubt you can say that about ANY society on earth
and you definitely can not say that about any Western society

for example, the Bourbon monarchies were pressuring the Pope to get rid of the Jesuits.... some say that there were even threats to leave the Church if this was not agreed upon
would this threat have been taken as seriously if the Protestant Reformation never happened?

The Catholic Church had the Council of Trent in reaction to the Protestant Reformation
Europe had near a century of the "wars of religion"
Protestantism helped unify the Dutch resistance to Spanish occupation

we can look at differences in New World colonies under Protestant and Catholic European powers...

this is an old thread, but I am pretty sure I have pointed out that the Protestant Reformation is such a HUGE event that we can not even speculate what the world would look like now without it.

like the idea that it would look like the middle ages but with jet planes is kinda silly

Late Antiquity did not look like the Middle Ages, the Middle Ages did not look like the Renaissance

so I am not saying that secularism would not have happened
but I am saying that many secular scholars see the Reformation as a thing that helped bring about secularism
the idea that religion is purely a private thing IS a Protestant idea, the emphasis on the individual

It is difficult for me to perceive Spain or Italy or France as being Protestant nations when the Protestant churches in those countries are extreme minorities to this day, having been hounded out during the Counter-Reformation. If Catholicism is what it claims to be, then the establishment and perpetuation of Catholic culture in these countries should have been a very simple matter. As it is, Catholicism as a primary cultural force in these countries was served a deathblow during the twentieth century with events such as the Spanish Civil War, WWI, and WWII. Blame for these disasters cannot be laid at the feet of Protestantism.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I will hardly defend Secularism, but I hasten to point out that Secularism has its roots in the Humanism of the Renaissance which preceded the Protestant Reformation.

We find enormous levels of secularization in societies which have had little or no influence of Protestantism. For example, the Catholic countries of Spain and France have some of the lowest statistics of church attendance in Christendom - much lower than the Protestant United States of America.

The USA has something like 39% who attend church some time in the year, Spain has 21%, Poland has 54%, Italy 31%, Ireland 46%, Denmark has 3%.

If you want to make comparisons between Protestant and Catholic nations then why not use Denmark as the Protestant example?

 

[Rhamiel]

It is difficult for me to perceive Spain or Italy or France as being Protestant nations when the Protestant churches in those countries are extreme minorities to this day, having been hounded out during the Counter-Reformation. If Catholicism is what it claims to be, then the establishment and perpetuation of Catholic culture in these countries should have been a very simple matter. As it is, Catholicism as a primary cultural force in these countries was served a deathblow during the twentieth century with events such as the Spanish Civil War, WWI, and WWII. Blame for these disasters cannot be laid at the feet of Protestantism.

I never said that Spain or Italy or France were Protestant nations

I said that Protestantism effected all of Europe....

like you could say "well in the 1950's only 3% of the people in the USA were of Russian ethnicity and only 6% were members of the Communist Party, the creation of the USSR has no effect on the USA in the 1950's"
no, that is just not the case
the USSR effected the global political climate and it also acted as a foil that we used to hold our self in contrast to.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The USA has something like 39% who attend church some time in the year, Spain has 21%, Poland has 54%, Italy 31%, Ireland 46%, Denmark has 3%.

If you want to make comparisons between Protestant and Catholic nations then why not use Denmark as the Protestant example?

I think the operative phrase here is "sometime in the year".

However, let us consider Poland versus Denmark. I think you would agree that of the nations you cited Poland is decidedly the most Catholic of them all. Can we honestly say that it has a thorough-going Catholic culture? If so, what hallmarks of that culture make it superior to "Protestant" or, rather, "Secular" Denmark?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think the operative phrase here is "sometime in the year".

However, let us consider Poland versus Denmark. I think you would agree that of the nations you cited Poland is decidedly the most Catholic of them all. Can we honestly say that it has a thorough-going Catholic culture? If so, what hallmarks of that culture make it superior to "Protestant" or, rather, "Secular" Denmark?

I do not contend that a Catholic culture (or a Protestant one) makes a nation superior to any other. I don't see why it should. One's culture, no matter how christian it may be, does not make one sinless, does it?