What if the Protestant reformation never happened?

[Gxg (G²)]

Actually, seventeenth-century England was seething with Non-Comformity of all types, not just the Baptists. There were Catholics, Quakers, Puritans, Pilgrims, Presbyterians, to name just a handful.

So true - and with all the ways those individual groups went into other parts of the world and contributed to humanity's development, the Protestant Reformation is to be thanked for that.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So true - and with all the ways those individual groups went into other parts of the world and contributed to humanity's development, the Protestant Reformation is to be thanked for that.

I am personally thankful because if one of my ancestors had not been hounded out of England at that time I would not be here.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

I am personally thankful because if one of my ancestors had not been hounded out of England at that time I would not be here.

And eating kidney pie.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The selling of indulgences was approved by multiple popes and carried out by cardinals to the end of paying off debts (for simony!) and enriching the churches of Rome (which, admittedly, were in need of serious repair). Leo approved these sales right after Lateran V condemned them; there is simply no indication that the practice would have stopped.

Not approved by popes. It was never an approved practice to sell indulgences. You cannot, could not, and never will be able to, buy your way out of hell. It was suggested to people that, if they donate to the cause of the rebuilding of St. Peter, they would be more saved (to put it in a nutshell, something that's difficult to do). But this wasn't done with "Rome's" approval. It is true that corporal works of mercy atone for one's sins, and giving alms is one of those. But to conflate the two is preposterous.

I understand what bishops and archbishops told people, but to suggest that it was done with Rome's knowledge and approval is incorrect.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I thought Loyola created the Jesuits to halt the bleeding from the Catholic reformation movement of the protesting Catholics. Did they have some other charter?

Is that a euphemism for "evangelization and spreading the faith wherever they were sent"?

 

[Root of Jesse]

And that's exactly what Lutheran, an Augustinian monk, called for: a council. Obviously that didn't turn out so well.

In any case, the prior conciliar declarations had no discernible effect and there was seemingly no interest on the part of the church hierarchy in address the problem. After all, they were invested in it. And by they, I'm not only including generations of popes and cardinals, but the Dominicans as well (Dominicans like Johann Tetzl).

Luther overstepped his authority. He had no authority to call for a council.

You say that earlier councils had no discernible effect...to who? We never know how the seeds which are planted will grow. Sometimes it takes years, decades, or centuries for something to flourish.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Until the Pope abolished the order forever in the late 18th century "by all the fullness of his apostolic power".

Funny that that error has been reversed, eh?

Combating the Protestant reformation had sort of backfired.

Really? How so? There are 1.3 billion Catholics in the world, and .8 billion Protestants. Besides, numbers don't mean much. Truth means everything.

Lateran IV -- calling for extermination of infidels - heretics ... (you name it) in 1213



Inquisition 1478




Jesuit Growth - 1545-1600


in Christ,

Bob

Considering that Loyola was a Spaniard, it's only understandable that the growth of the Jesuit order would have been stronger in Spain...

 

[Root of Jesse]

Well, Adolph Hitler was a good Catholic boy as was his pal Mussolini.

Really? How would you know a good Catholic boy from a bad Catholic boy? Lots of people are nominally Catholic. Doesn't make them "good Catholic".

Vladimir Lenin's father was a devout member of the Russian Orthodox Church. It is obvious that they were deeply influenced by their Protestant backgrounds which made them the men that they became.

To weave into twentieth-century history and its leading figures the dreaded influence of Protestantism is an amazing task which stretches the credibility of those of us who lived through at least half of the century. It is about as credible to me as working up a vast Jesuit conspiracy to dominate the world.

We know Catholics by their deeds and actions. I don't think it's right to look at someone's dad's religion and paste it to that someone's actions later. That said, Secular Humanism, and the idea that we can do anything without God is where Christianity fractured. When you don't put God in the forefront of every last detail of your life, you're not being humble enough.

 

[Root of Jesse]

It's more accurate to say that the passing of half a millennium saw additional changes all round in society, and these would have happened with or without the Reformation.

In addition, we tend to forget that the Reformation DID bring about a reform of the Roman Catholic Church as well as produce separate, reformed Christian denominations. We don't always notice this internal change, however, because it took the Vatican 500 years to admit that these reforms pioneered by the Lutheran, Reformed, and Anglican churches in the 16th Century were actually needed.

You think so, anyway. It probably did have some effect, but the Catholic Reformation was going on before Luther, or anyone else, decided to revolt. I wonder what reforms pioneered by the Anglican Church was needed...that divorce should have been available to anyone who wants it? Wow! What a reform that would be! Imagine "What God has put together, let no man tear asunder" would be deleted! Now that's a reform!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

And eating kidney pie.

Never could get into that kind of food....

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The analogy was about listening to Scripture and Tradition, as opposed to Sola Scriptura. When you listen to just one or the other, you don't get the fullness of the faith.

Exactly - and the fact that it was missed is something that does not seem reasonable, IMHO

 

[ebia]

Way to dismiss what he was saying to you...Is it true that the Anglican Church says it's ok to be a Freemason?

Like most questions of that sort of nature, there isn't a formal position on the question.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Really? How would you know a good Catholic boy from a bad Catholic boy? Lots of people are nominally Catholic. Doesn't make them "good Catholic".

We know Catholics by their deeds and actions. I don't think it's right to look at someone's dad's religion and paste it to that someone's actions later. That said, Secular Humanism, and the idea that we can do anything without God is where Christianity fractured. When you don't put God in the forefront of every last detail of your life, you're not being humble enough.

As you say, we know Catholics by their deeds and actions. Adolph Hitler was a Catholic man who maintained close relations with the Holy See. Although some might question this, we can easily see in the photograph below his meeting with the Papal Nuncio.

Now, a Protestant would never have done such a thing, would you not agree?

Mussolini is seen here signing the Lateran Concordats.

 

[Root of Jesse]

As you say, we know Catholics by their deeds and actions. Adolph Hitler was a Catholic man who maintained close relations with the Holy See. Although some might question this, we can easily see in the photograph below his meeting with the Papal Nuncio.

Define close relations. Adolf Hitler may have been Catholic by birth, but we would know he's a practicing Catholic if we know he attended Mass every week and participated in the sacraments.

It's very telling, where you got the picture from...You know, President Obama has visited the current pope, would you say they have "close relations"? I wouldn't. So, that's a quite subjective opinion you have. It is also known that the Pope kept close ties with the Catholic bishops in Germany, and disseminated information through them-letters speaking out against Hitler. Any agreements between the German chancellor and the Pope were to allow bishops to minster to their faithful. [/quote]
Now, a Protestant would never have done such a thing, would you not agree?
[/quote] I don't know that any Protestant central bodies had the well-being of their faithful in their minds. So no, maybe they wouldn't have protected their faithful...not really sure.

Mussolini is seen here signing the Lateran Concordats.

Yes, a treaty that allows the church to operate in a country. Horror of horrors...

 

[Root of Jesse]

Like most questions of that sort of nature, there isn't a formal position on the question.

There is for Catholics and Orthodox...

 

[bbbbbbb]

Define close relations. Adolf Hitler may have been Catholic by birth, but we would know he's a practicing Catholic if we know he attended Mass every week and participated in the sacraments.It's very telling, where you got the picture from...You know, President Obama has visited the current pope, would you say they have "close relations"? I wouldn't. So, that's a quite subjective opinion you have. It is also known that the Pope kept close ties with the Catholic bishops in Germany, and disseminated information through them-letters speaking out against Hitler. Any agreements between the German chancellor and the Pope were to allow bishops to minster to their faithful.

Now, a Protestant would never have done such a thing, would you not agree?
[/quote] I don't know that any Protestant central bodies had the well-being of their faithful in their minds. So no, maybe they wouldn't have protected their faithful...not really sure.
Yes, a treaty that allows the church to operate in a country. Horror of horrors...[/quote]

Well, Hitler certainly practiced his faith more than most Catholics in Europe do today. That is a very sad commentary on the Catholic Church today, I think.

One of the strange outworkings of Hitler's faith was his ardent anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism had a long history within Christendom (including the RCC, EOC, and Lutheran Churches) long before Hitler came on the scene. He fell into its snare, aided and abetted by secular sources, as well.

As for both Hitler and Mussolini, their willingness to cooperate with the Catholic Church seems to have been sincere in that they honored their pacts with the Catholic Church unlike other pacts with nations such as Great Britain.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Now, a Protestant would never have done such a thing, would you not agree?

I don't know that any Protestant central bodies had the well-being of their faithful in their minds. So no, maybe they wouldn't have protected their faithful...not really sure.
Yes, a treaty that allows the church to operate in a country. Horror of horrors...[/quote]

Well, Hitler certainly practiced his faith more than most Catholics in Europe do today. That is a very sad commentary on the Catholic Church today, I think.
[/quote] Proof of Hitler practicing his faith? When was his First Communion? His Confirmation? Date of his Sacramental Marriage? Any evidence that he attended Mass every Sunday? Confession?

One of the strange outworkings of Hitler's faith was his ardent anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism had a long history within Christendom (including the RCC, EOC, and Lutheran Churches) long before Hitler came on the scene. He fell into its snare, aided and abetted by secular sources, as well.

That's funny, since the Catholic Church is seen as the only voice in Europe that helped the Jews, both inside and outside concentration camps.

As for both Hitler and Mussolini, their willingness to cooperate with the Catholic Church seems to have been sincere in that they honored their pacts with the Catholic Church unlike other pacts with nations such as Great Britain.

Except when Hitler chose to ignore his. And the instances of that happening were legion.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Now, a Protestant would never have done such a thing, would you not agree?

I don't know that any Protestant central bodies had the well-being of their faithful in their minds. So no, maybe they wouldn't have protected their faithful...not really sure.
Yes, a treaty that allows the church to operate in a country. Horror of horrors...[/quote]

Well, Hitler certainly practiced his faith more than most Catholics in Europe do today. That is a very sad commentary on the Catholic Church today, I think.

One of the strange outworkings of Hitler's faith was his ardent anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism had a long history within Christendom (including the RCC, EOC, and Lutheran Churches) long before Hitler came on the scene. He fell into its snare, aided and abetted by secular sources, as well.

As for both Hitler and Mussolini, their willingness to cooperate with the Catholic Church seems to have been sincere in that they honored their pacts with the Catholic Church unlike other pacts with nations such as Great Britain.[/QUOTE]

Adolf Hitler was raised by an anti-clerical, skeptic father and a devout Catholic mother. Baptized as an infant, confirmed at the age of fifteen, he ceased attending Mass and participating in the sacraments in later life.[1] In adulthood, he became disdainful of Christianity but in power was prepared to delay clashes with the churches out of political considerations.[2] Hitler's architect Albert Speer believed he had "no real attachment" to Catholicism, but that he had never formally left the Church. Unlike his comrade Joseph Goebbels, Hitler was not excommunicated[3] prior to his suicide. The biographer John Toland noted Hitler's anticlericalism, but considered him still in "good standing" with the Church by 1941, while historians such as Ian Kershaw, Joachim Fest and Alan Bullock agree that Hitler was anti-Christian - a view evidenced by sources such as the Goebbels Diaries, the memoirs of Speer, and the transcripts edited by Martin Bormann contained within Hitler's Table Talk.[4] Goebbels wrote in 1941 that Hitler "hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity."[5] Many historians have come to the conclusion that Hitler's long term aim was the eradication of Christianity in Germany,[6] while others maintain that there is insufficient evidence for such a plan.[7]
From Wikipedia

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Gxg (G²)

Not certain what the "love feast" comment was about - but whatever. If you are that crazy for someone to pay attention to you, just ask without the sarcasm.

But as said before, till you get other things dealt with, there's really nothing to discuss.


​

Originally Posted by LiberalAnglicanCatholic

I'm unsure and kind of baffled by the connection you are trying to make on Anglicanism and freemasonry in regards to the ongoing spirit of the reformation, in which the reconciliation efforts with other bodies of the Church is part of the reform.
​

Originally Posted by Albion

Kind of a personal burr under his saddle, apparently. However, there is a place for discussions of Freemasonry, and this forum is not it.
​

Way to dismiss what he was saying to you...Is it true that the Anglican Church says it's ok to be a Freemason?

If so, both Catholic and Orthodox believe that Freemasonry is anathema. And we are united in more ways than not, and have always been more unified than either one with Protestantism.

The analogy was about listening to Scripture and Tradition, as opposed to Sola Scriptura. When you listen to just one or the other, you don't get the fullness of the faith.

Meanwhile, back to the meds...

What meds are you taking?


.

 

[Root of Jesse]

What meds are you taking?


.

Simvastatin, Lisinopril and vitamins. You?