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What if the Protestant reformation never happened?

G

GratiaCorpusChristi

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I think that we should also be honest to know that the Protestant Revolt would not have been successful if not for the princes who view Luther and the others that rose up after him, as a means by which they could rebel from the emperor, and carve out for themselves their own little bases of power. But oddly enough the princes are never discussed as being instrumental in the revolt, for some reason.

I think the key here is that the pope had too many pots in the fire, and couldn't address all of them.

The other thing that I think needs to be pointed out is that for some reason, people perceive that the pope had absolute secular power during this period, and that was just not true. Did he have influence? Yes. But the secular leaders could pretty much do what they wish, and the only recourse the pope really had was excommunication.

Good point. Pots in the fire.

Quite honestly the pope was powerless to do anything against the princes who backed the Lutherans, except diplomacy. The emperor was the only one to do anything against them; but he was stuck with the problem of the Turks, and was able to effectively address the civil war that was rising up in his empire.

You'll be happy to know that, in the course of my masters' studies in the history of Christianity, every course that covered the reformation period addressed the secular motivations of the German princes.

That said, their secular motivations were not purely secular. From all accounts, John the Steadfast of Saxony and Philip of Hesse- the leading "Evangelical" princes within the Empire- underwent thoroughgoing personal conversions.

And, what's more, I think that just the nature of Christendom from the time of Constantine until the French Revolution all efforts at reform that have been successful- whether they have been successful within the church as in the cases of Gregorian reforms or Vatican II, or successful outside the church in form of enduring non-Catholic churches like the Anglican and Lutheran- have been successful because of some sort of political, secular support. Otherwise, calls for reform either remained private (the Brethren of the Common Life are a good example) or were squelched (the Cathars- not exactly a reform program any of us with agree with, but a call to change nonetheless). The only root for non-political survival lay outside the political landscape of Christendom- as Nestorians, Anabaptists, and others did.

In any case, I wouldn't sell the printing press short. Luther's books were runaway best sellers. In fact, they sold so well that many people read them outside of Saxony and apart from the larger context of Luther's writings, leading to fringe Luther-inspired movements like the Peasant's Revolt (hardly something Luther approved of). Certainly the printing press cannot be invoked as the cause of the success of the Reformation (such as it was), and you're right to point to the princes. But if the princes can be thanked (or blamed) for the success of the Lutheran reform program in Saxony, Hesse, and other German and Scandinavian realms, the printing press can absolutely be held responsible for its wide acceptance among the Saxon laity well prior to the conversion of the princes.
 
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Erose

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You'll be happy to know that, in the course of my masters' studies in the history of Christianity, every course that covered the reformation period addressed the secular motivations of the German princes.
Yeah I know in the colleges and seminaries they teach this; but obviously in the pews they do not; for these princes are hardly ever mentioned only Luther, Calvin, etc.

That said, their secular motivations were not purely secular. From all accounts, John the Steadfast of Saxony and Philip of Hesse- the leading "Evangelical" princes within the Empire- underwent thoroughgoing personal conversions.
Not in all cases no doubt. But we are also dealing with human beings as well, so I would be safe to assume that there are a good number of bad apples in the bucket; who saw this as the perfect opportunity for grabbing power and they did.

And, what's more, I think that just the nature of Christendom from the time of Constantine until the French Revolution all efforts at reform that have been successful- whether they have been successful within the church as in the cases of Gregorian reforms or Vatican II, or successful outside the church in form of enduring non-Catholic churches like the Anglican and Lutheran- have been successful because of some sort of political, secular support. Otherwise, calls for reform either remained private (the Brethren of the Common Life are a good example) or were squelched (the Cathars- not exactly a reform program any of us with agree with, but a call to change nonetheless). The only root for non-political survival lay outside the political landscape of Christendom- as Nestorians, Anabaptists, and others did.
Any time there are changes to the landscape that includes the secular society, you can always bet that there are going to be politicians involved.

In any case, I wouldn't sell the printing press short. Luther's books were runaway best sellers. In fact, they sold so well that many people read them outside of Saxony and apart from the larger context of Luther's writings, leading to fringe Luther-inspired movements like the Peasant's Revolt (hardly something Luther approved of). Certainly the printing press cannot be invoked as the cause of the success of the Reformation (such as it was), and you're right to point to the princes. But if the princes can be thanked (or blamed) for the success of the Lutheran reform program in Saxony, Hesse, and other German and Scandinavian realms, the printing press can absolutely be held responsible for its wide acceptance among the Saxon laity well prior to the conversion of the princes.
I agree. There is a reason, why companies invest millions of dollars into marketing every year. It works.

I'm trying to be combative here, just making some points that don't get discussed a great deal. The Protestant revolt was just as much a civil rebellion as it was a religious one; and I don't think neither would have been successful without the other.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Even with the advent of the printing press, it still took a month to copy a Bible. They were cheaper to get yes, but still out of the grasp of common folks.
I still wonder at times why people place so much focus on the printing press as if it alone was what made the difference - and even if it had impact, it seems odd whenever we note that the advent of it began around the Protestant Reformation.

For its advent was made originally OUTSIDE of the European experience..specifically in China. China was always the hub of inventions and innovation due to, not only bright minds, but a good economic environment...and they have often been ahead in a lot of things...and no surprise that they were in the position they were in when it came to the West.

In example, when I had the opportunity to go to a Bible musuem known as "Passages" years ago, I was amazed to see that Printed books existed nearly 600 years before Gutenberg's Bible....as expressed in Chinese Culture. .and yet despite where they already did so long before Europe caught up, the idea was deemed as worthless until circumstances caused it to be celebrated in the West - and credit was taken for it by Europeans (in light of what the Reformation meant to them )and no one considered the ways others already did as they did - but chose not to use it for the same reasons. '




As another noted best (for brief excerpt):


Francis Bacon (1561-1626), an early advocate of file empirical method, upon which the scientific revolution was based, attributed Western Europe's early modern take-off to three things in particular: printing, the compass, and gunpowder. Bacon had no idea where these things had come from, but historians now know that all three were invented in China. Since, unlike Europe, China did not take off onto a path leading from the scientific to the Industrial Revolution, some historians are now asking why these inventions were so revolutionary in Western Europe and, apparently, so unrevolutionary in China....Printing not only eliminated much of the opportunity for human copying errors, it also encouraged the production of more copies of old books and an increasing number of new books. As written material became both cheaper and more easily available, intellectual activity increased. Printing would eventually be held responsible, at least in part, for spread of classical humanism and other ideas from the Renaissance. It is also said to have stimulated the Protestant Reformation, which urged a return to the Bible as the primary religious authority.

Additionally, as noted in http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/shaffer.html:



the impact of printing on China was in some ways very similar to its later impact on Europe. For example, printing contributed to a rebirth of classical (that is, preceeding the third century AD) Confucian learning, helping to revive a fundamentally humanistic outlook that had been pushed aside for several centuries....

The resurgence of Confucianism within the scholarly community was due to many factors, but printing was certainly one of the most important. Although it was invented by Buddhist monks in China, and at first benefited Buddhism, by the middle of the tenth century, printers were turning out innumerable copies of the classical Confucian corpus. This return of scholars to classical learning was part of a more general movement that shared not only its humanistic features with the later Western European Renaissance, but certain artistic trends as well.

Furthermore, the Protestant Reformation in Western Europe was in some ways reminiscent of the emergence and eventual triumph of Neo-Confucian philosophy. ....In the same way that Protestantism emerged out of a confrontation with the Roman Catholic establishment and asserted the individual Christians autonomy, Neo-Confucianism emerged as a critique of Buddhist ideas that had taken hold in China, and it asserted an individual moral capacity totally unrelated to the ascetic practices and prayers of the Buddhist priesthood.

You didn't see China really concerned with the Reformation nor did it impact it greatly when the printing press in the West helped it spread - there were cultural dynamics in understanding the Gospel and other aspects of the West which made a world of difference for what information was deemed important in spreading.

Christians were ALREADY present in China - .Eastern Christianity/ Church of the East greatly influenced the Mongol Empire (more discussed here /here/here/here/here/here /here/ here/ here/ here/ here/here & here in #84 ) - with it being the case that the Nestorians won many members of the Keralts tribe to their faith (and in the 13th century this tribe would produce Genghis Khan, the military leader who would unify the Mongol tribes ) and there were many Nestorian Christians in the court of Genghis Khan, including the wife of the khan himself. It was very amazing seeing how there were certainly Christian sects operating within the Mongolian sphere at the time in question, as the Nestorians had been converting Mongols since the 7th century and the Keraits, Merkits, etc., had large Christian beliefs. .and these Christians then intermarried with other Mongolian tribes - with at least two sons of Genghis Khan married Nestorian women...and the influences being so great that Genghis Khan also exempted Christian priests and scholars from paying any taxes.




For one excellent presentation on the issue, I would suggest looking into a study entitled especially in the time of the MongolsObject No. 14: The 'Nestorian Stone' or Church of the East Stele - presented by Martin Palmer



ku-medium.jpg

That said, with the printing press, it seemed to have different emphasis in European culture than it did in Chinese or Asian culture even when Christianity was present in BOTH places - and that very much has to do with the things valued respectively in each world.

Sometimes an invention is just “in the air”..as advances in technology have brought things to a point where all the pieces exist to make a major leap forward, and all it takes is for a bright and innovative thinker to have the insight to put those pieces together. Often, several people will “invent” the same or similar things around the same time…but only one of them gets focus/press on it at a given moment while others who preceded them in the innovation often aren’t concerned because what they are noted for elsewhere has no bearing on how they are already recognized in their own culture/focused on the homefront they’re at.

In the Far East, movable type and printing presses were known but did not replace printing from individually carved wooden blocks, from movable clay type, processes much more efficient than hand copying. The use of movable type in printing was invented in 1041 AD by Bi Sheng in China. Since there are thousands of Chinese characters, the benefit of the technique is not as obvious as in European languages.”

Modifying a tool is not the same as inventing it, as that'd be like saying Steve Jobs invented the telephone...when all he did was change it in regards to the Smart Phone design he made...and the same thing in regards to saying Toyota invented the automobile rather than Ford when the truth is that they simply were innovative with something that pre-existed both of them....and in the same way, Gutenberg didn't invent the printing press, movable type or not. The Chinese had a a printing press differing than Gutenberg because they don't use the alphabet and they use characters that don't break up the way individual letters do, so they invented a press that fit their needs. That isn't to say it's inferior to the movable type printing press though. And it certainly wasn't "unfinished."


To have invented something, you would have had to have made it first. Whether the Chinese printing press made it to Europe or not, the Chinese printing press was still invented FIRST. And ignoring that historically while repeating something such as Europe revolutionized the world for everyone in making printing possible is the same eurocentric view that says Columbus discovered the Americas or that the Lord was only working in the Reformation when it was already the case that other cultures around the world had mighty moves of God. History makes a difference in how we see people - and so glad I was able to go to the Bible Museum with my Bro and talk to him on how often history has a slant toward folks rocking things where they're at...but their impact still being felt even when you may not hear their names.

Different machines can often achieve the same goal. To think we went from hand engraved dies, to wooden type, to laser etched aluminum plates, to polyester plates, to paper or vinyl plates and now we have laser and inkjet technology. All were built about existing technology but are so very different in their process. One could argue the first printing press could have easily been someone etching a piece of wood and dipping it in ink....but the point is that the way things are seen often go through cycles...:)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Protestant Revolt would not have been successful if not for the princes who view Luther and the others that rose up after him, as a means by which they could rebel from the emperor, and carve out for themselves their own little bases of power. But oddly enough the princes are never discussed as being instrumental in the revolt, for some reason.
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One can say there'd be no Protestant Revolt without MILITARY might - that it was effectively a matter of "Might Makes Right" that ensured the Revolt would suceed rather than a change in how one saw scripture alone as the basis behind change.

The power of the gun never changes....
 
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G

GratiaCorpusChristi

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Yeah I know in the colleges and seminaries they teach this; but obviously in the pews they do not; for these princes are hardly ever mentioned only Luther, Calvin, etc.

Not in all cases no doubt. But we are also dealing with human beings as well, so I would be safe to assume that there are a good number of bad apples in the bucket; who saw this as the perfect opportunity for grabbing power and they did.

Any time there are changes to the landscape that includes the secular society, you can always bet that there are going to be politicians involved.

I agree. There is a reason, why companies invest millions of dollars into marketing every year. It works.

I'm trying to be combative here, just making some points that don't get discussed a great deal. The Protestant revolt was just as much a civil rebellion as it was a religious one; and I don't think neither would have been successful without the other.

Haha, I'll assume you mean "I'm trying not to be combative here."

In any case, you're certainly not being combative and I hope I'm not either.

My only real quibble would be: When Catholics discuss the (counter-)reformation in small groups and at the pulpit, how often to Charles V and Philip II get mentioned? And yet Charles was critical in making sure Lutheranism remained a movement of individual German lands and not pan-German nationalism (helped that he wasn't German himself), and Philip was critical toward the successful application of positive Catholic Reform and the enforcement of Tridentine orthodox.

Honestly, the more I read about the reformation, the more I'm just saddened by missed opportunities.
 
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G

GratiaCorpusChristi

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The Protestant revolt may have started as a reform movement. It didn't end that way.

Can't it be both? The princes of Germany, Bohemia, Poland, and the Dutch lands, the kings of Britain and Scandanavia, and the cantons of the Swiss lands all certainly engaged in open rebellion against the emperor and the pope, but they also carried out the reform programs of their respective leading churchmen.

The history of Catholicism in the sixteenth century cannot be reduced to the counter-Reformation, but must include the positive reforms of the Catholic Reformation (and Protestants would add, negative reforms). The history of Protestantism in the sixteenth century cannot be reduced to the revolt against Rome, but must include the positive reforms in the new churches (and Catholics would add, negative reforms).
 
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Gxg (G²)

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The Protestant revolt may have started as a reform movement. It didn't end that way.
Things can come full circle if given enough time...
 
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B

bbbbbbb

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It hasn't ended....reform is a continual process.

Quite so. The Catholic Counter-Reformation is an excellent example of that. The Catholic Church still continues to reform itself, although not according to scripture only whereas most Reformed bodies are being reformed with holy scripture as their lodestone.
 
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Albion

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If what we know as the Protestant Reformation hadn't happened when it did, it would have happened in another couple of generations or the next century.

As we all know, the demands for the reform of corrupt practices and unbiblical doctrines were constantly erupting within the church and were growing stronger over the several centuries that led up to the Reformation.
 
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Root of Jesse

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If what we know as the Protestant Reformation hadn't happened when it did, it would have happened in another couple of generations or the next century.

As we all know, the demands for the reform of corrupt practices and unbiblical doctrines were constantly erupting within the church and were growing stronger over the several centuries that led up to the Reformation.

As did the Catholic Reformation, which happened, and does happen, every single day.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Quite so. The Catholic Counter-Reformation is an excellent example of that. The Catholic Church still continues to reform itself, although not according to scripture only whereas most Reformed bodies are being reformed with holy scripture as their lodestone.
Originally Posted by Albion
If what we know as the Protestant Reformation hadn't happened when it did, it would have happened in another couple of generations or the next century.

As we all know, the demands for the reform of corrupt practices and unbiblical doctrines were constantly erupting within the church and were growing stronger over the several centuries that led up to the Reformation.
As did the Catholic Reformation, which happened, and does happen, every single day.
Glad to hear y'all are trying to catch up with the Protestant Reformation :thumbsup:





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rockytopva

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What if the Protestant Reformation never happened... Well I believe the churches as seven...

1. Ephesus - Apostolic - Left their first love
2. Smyrna - Martyr - Foxes has the Roman persecutions as ten
3. Pergamos - Orthodox - A pyrgros is a tower, needed in the dark ages
4. Thyatira - Catholic - Jezebel controlled and dominated
5. Sardis - Protestant - A sardius is a gem - beautiful yet hard and rigid
6. Philadelphia - Wesleyan / Pentecostal - To get sanctified was to acquire it with love
7. Laodica - Charismatic / Word of Faith

Not only did we have to escape the control and domination of the Thyatirean age, but of the Sardisean as well. Martin Luther and John Calvin could be just as mean and ruthless as the Cathoilics before. Just check into the history of the ana-Baptists. And as the old German proverb goes, that in the name of God begins all mischief.

These are the effects of fallen angels in our midst. Even in my small Pentecostal Holiness denomination we started out great when we were small, but once we got Bible cemeteries, oops I meant seminaries it was all downhill from there.

Bottom line, power corrupts men. In the song Sympathy for the Devil - The Rolling Stones... Satan revals himseof as a game player. He delights in getting in the Christian church and spreading his mischief.

Sympathy for the Devil - The Rolling Stones...

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long years
Stole many a man's soul and faith

And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made d*** sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game

I stuck around St. Petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain

I rode a tank
Held a general's rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah
(woo woo, woo woo)

I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
(woo woo, woo woo)

I shouted out,
"Who killed the Kennedys?"
When after all
It was you and me
(who who, who who)

Let me please introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached Bombay
(woo woo, who who)

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
(who who)
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby
(who who, who who)

Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint
(who who, who who)

So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
(woo woo)
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste, um yeah
(woo woo, woo woo)
 
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B

bbbbbbb

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Actually, as most Christians know, there was reformation which had been developing over the centuries within the Catholic Church. In most cases, these reform efforts were incorporated within the Catholic Church, such as the various monastic movements or they were eradicated as heresies as with the Albigensians. The Waldensians were an exception to this rule and they continue to this day as a pre-Reformation church that developed away from Catholicism.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by LiberalAnglicanCatholic
It hasn't ended....reform is a continual process.
Quite so. The Catholic Counter-Reformation is an excellent example of that.
The Catholic Church still continues to reform itself, although not according to scripture, only whereas most Reformed bodies are being reformed with holy scripture as their lodestone.
:thumbsup: :amen:

Heb 9:10
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances,
imposed on them until the time of reformation. G1357

1357. diorthosis dee-or'-tho-sis from a compound of 1223 and a derivative of 3717, meaning to straighten thoroughly; rectification, i.e. (specially) the Messianic restauration:--reformation.




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