What if I do something different than what God's foreknowledge says I will do?

[Joshua260]

What you are saying is that your freedom to choose "B" would be removed. I guess that would make you a robot of some sort.

Nope. I'm saying that we would freely eventually choose what God knew we freely eventually would.

 

[dhh712]

How it would happen is:

1) Variable X must equal variable Y
2) On day 1, variable X has the value of Y on day 2
3) On day 1, variable Y doesn't have a value
4) On day 2, variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B

What happens in between, before, and after these events is that God simultaneously sees your action on Day 2, having been freely assigned, and thus X is equal to what Y will be, since God exists in day 1 and day 2 simultaneously.

That's a much better, clearer way of explaining it--thanks! I couldn't come up with anything better than "God fore-ordains what we freely choose" and I think the problem he had in understanding it (which is a problem in the theological world as well) is that he doesn't understand how we can really *freely* choose something if God has fore-ordained it for us. That is a problem-- it does make us seem like robots, yet God does not exist in time as we do and your example to me makes it more clear how it happens that way, that He exists simultaneously in day 1 and day 2.

 

[Akureyri]

Yes. And they freely choose what God has ordained for them (and the analogy is only how I can best understand it; it certainly does not depict God's fore-ordination in the exact way it happens. No human on earth can know how it is done; there are many theological speculations on it, but that is all it is: speculation. It really isn't the foundation of a Christian's belief, just a minor detail of it).

If Pete can freely choose A or B, then he can choose either A or B - regardless if anyone or anything has fore-ordained this choice for Pete.

Why would theology be the way to find an answer? Why not science?

He will ultimately choose A. Up until he chooses A, he can theoretically choose B, yet he will not. His ability to choose B is impeded by God's fore-ordination, in which He has fore-ordained that this person will freely choose A.

You've contradicted yourself. If he can theoretically choose B, then he can choose B. Don't say he can choose B and say he can't choose B.

I was pondering all this and it came to me that perhaps the misunderstanding is all centered on how it is free *will*, not free action. All these scenarios are centered around an action a person will take. And as everyone knows there is no one alive who can do whatever they want. Everyone is limited to certain choices by physical restraints. Perhaps this person wants to choose B actually, but he ends up acting out the choice of A because of certain limitations. That can be what is actually going on here--there are tons of things we may want to do, but we're not going to be able to do whatever we want because of our restrictions.

That's not the situation I'm talking about. I'm talking about a human who is faced with an upcoming decision between A or B - which can be freely made with absolutely nothing impeding the decision.

Try it yourself. Go to your kitchen/dining room and in it you may find two apples. You can freely choose to eat either apple A or apple B. If you choose apple A, there was nothing preventing you from choosing apple B. If you choose apple B, there was nothing preventing you from choosing apple A. Up until the time you choose apple A, you still could have chosen apple B.

I really won't because your words and what I have once said were almost exactly the same--that if someone could provide evidence for me for the existence of God, that perhaps I would believe in Him (the "it just didn't add up" was a paraphrasing of that statement. For me, the logical inconsistencies of God were an impediment for my belief in Him--what I was implying when I said, "it didn't add up". I'm pretty sure that is basically what you are saying as you keep referring to God's fore-ordination as a logical impossibility).

When you (or someone else) posits a god that possesses logically impossible characteristics, it is not a choice I make to not believe this god exists. I let logic do the dirty work and I merely respond to what logic says.

If God decided to audibly speak to someone according to the details of this situation, I would imagine the events would occur the way He has fore-ordained them to happen. I would imagine then that they would somehow be prevented from choosing B if he has already selected them to choose A.

Then what do you suppose Pete would feel/experience when he attempts to choose B if God has already told him he will choose A?

The basis for the Christian belief is the Bible. It is not the world. That is why it seems you are having trouble understanding Christian beliefs. It does not adhere to worldly wisdom, though that is something which probably should not be entirely dispensed with being that we still have to live in this world. It is just not something one should use if they're trying to find their way to God, because it won't happen utilizing worldly logic. We trust in what the Bible tells us of God, not what the world tells us of God (though it can give us clues as to his personality and attributes, we realize that our perception of the world has been skewed by sin so it will not be for us the way it was intended to be).

How can you trust something which presents something which is logically flawed?

 

[Akureyri]

In the situation the dude clearly still saw that it would be best to choose A instead of B. like how someone may try to jump a shark but decides that not doing it would be best. Though if better clarification. You will choose to respond to this thread. Following your logic, you are a robot.

I did have a free choice to either respond or not respond. You were merely making a prediction that I would respond. You didn't have infallible knowledge that I would respond.

 

[Akureyri]

This is a hilarious thread. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone has actually answered his question yet. I think what he wants desperately is for someone to say this:

"Then God would not be omniscient because He wouldn't have correctly predicted what would happen."

Obviously that's what would happen. If you knew infallibly what A/B choice I will make tomorrow - say you know I will choose A - and I instead choose B, then your foreknowledge has been compromised.

And yet the very problem is that this wouldn't happen. God is omniscient. That means He is all-knowing. Which means that He knows everything.

Really? He knows absolutely everything? Just how did he get this knowledge?

Can you communicate back and forth with God?
Does God want me to believe he exists?

He doesn't exist in time as we do. He already exists in tomorrow, two days after tomorrow, and yesterday. He is not only everywhere, but also everywhen. (Omnichronological?) I realize that's not a word, but what it means is that at every single moment He exists at every single moment in our time. He knows exactly what you will do.

What if on day 1, God tells Pete what his freely made day 2 A/B choice will be. He tells him it will be A. Pete then attempts to freely choose B. What will happen?

1) Will God's omniscience be compromised
2) Will Pete somehow be prevented from choosing B (if so, what would Pete experience as he attempts to choose B?)

You choose, but He already knows what you've chosen, because He is without time.

How does he get this knowledge? Is it through observation? Or through prediction? Or some other way?

He already knows what will happen, and His divine plan has already accounted for your action. Your action was free will. But it was also predicted by God.

If he knows everything, then he wouldn't really be predicting things.

How it would happen is:

1) Variable X must equal variable Y
2) On day 1, variable X has the value of Y on day 2
3) On day 1, variable Y doesn't have a value
4) On day 2, variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B

Agree with #1
With respect to #2, does variable X have a fixed value on day 1? (e.g. if it were asked on day 1, "Does God know what Pete's day 2 A/B choice is?", would the answer be YES?)
If variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B on day 2 AND is equal to variable X, then variable X cannot have a value at any point in time prior to day 2.

What happens in between, before, and after these events is that God simultaneously sees your action on Day 2, having been freely assigned, and thus X is equal to what Y will be, since God exists in day 1 and day 2 simultaneously.

Then what happens if God tells Pete on day 1 what his freely made day 2 A/B choice will be?

 

[dhh712]

If Pete can freely choose A or B, then he can choose either A or B - regardless if anyone or anything has fore-ordained this choice for Pete.

Fore-ordination has to do with what happens, not what can happen. He can choose either A or B. Ultimately, what he will choose will be whatever God has fore-ordained for Him.

Why would theology be the way to find an answer? Why not science?

Because science does not provide us knowledge of the spiritual world, of God; it only provides us knowledge of this world which ultimately means nothing (it also gives us corrupted clues of the image of God, images which have been corrupted by sin).

You've contradicted yourself. If he can theoretically choose B, then he can choose B. Don't say he can choose B and say he can't choose B.

He can, but he won't.

That's not the situation I'm talking about. I'm talking about a human who is faced with an upcoming decision between A or B - which can be freely made with absolutely nothing impeding the decision.

It can be freely made. It will be freely made according to whatever God has fore-ordained to happen.

Then what do you suppose Pete would feel/experience when he attempts to choose B if God has already told him he will choose A?

He will feel whatever he feels. If he acts as though he wants to go after the one he thinks God has not fore-ordained for him, then he is acting out what God has fore-ordained for him. Ultimately, whatever he does will be whatever it is that God has fore-ordained for him.

How can you trust something which presents something which is logically flawed?

Because I do not worship logic. I worship God.

 

[dhh712]

Really? He knows absolutely everything? Just how did he get this knowledge?

Because He created everything. He has arranged all the events to happen in the way that they happen.

Can you communicate back and forth with God?
Does God want me to believe he exists?

No. We can attempt to communicate to God, but we can never apprehend Him. He can only condescend to us.

I don't know if He wants you to believe in Him. It seems that, at least at the moment, He does not wish it for whatever purpose.

How does he get this knowledge? Is it through observation? Or through prediction? Or some other way?


If he knows everything, then he wouldn't really be predicting things.

He gets this knowledge because He has determined the events in the way they will unfold. He doesn't predict anything.

Agree with #1
With respect to #2, does variable X have a fixed value on day 1? (e.g. if it were asked on day 1, "Does God know what Pete's day 2 A/B choice is?", would the answer be YES?)
If variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B on day 2 AND is equal to variable X, then variable X cannot have a value at any point in time prior to day 2.

You are still looking at the events and God's fore-knowledge of them as though both are bound by time.

Then what happens if God tells Pete on day 1 what his freely made day 2 A/B choice will be?

I've already answered the question. It will happen in the way that God has fore-ordained it to happen.

 

[AFM]

Obviously that's what would happen. If you knew infallibly what A/B choice I will make tomorrow - say you know I will choose A - and I instead choose B, then your foreknowledge has been compromised.


Really? He knows absolutely everything? Just how did he get this knowledge?

Can you communicate back and forth with God?
Does God want me to believe he exists?


What if on day 1, God tells Pete what his freely made day 2 A/B choice will be. He tells him it will be A. Pete then attempts to freely choose B. What will happen?

1) Will God's omniscience be compromised
2) Will Pete somehow be prevented from choosing B (if so, what would Pete experience as he attempts to choose B?)

Pete will not choose B, because God has already seen the result of that action. God told Pete, and He knew that His prediction would be correct because His prediction was the answer Pete chose even after being told what His answer would be. There are no 'alternate universes' or 'alternate timelines'. There is one timeline, and it has already been set in stone. It's like writing on paper and filling the whole page up. There's no room for anything different. Why? Not because nobody can act out of free will, but because they already expressed their free will, drew what they would, and now they've completed the page.

How does he get this knowledge? Is it through observation? Or through prediction? Or some other way?

He is the creator of the Universe and therefore knows everything that happens in it. He is not only in every single place at once but also in every single period of time at once.

If he knows everything, then he wouldn't really be predicting things.


Agree with #1
With respect to #2, does variable X have a fixed value on day 1? (e.g. if it were asked on day 1, "Does God know what Pete's day 2 A/B choice is?", would the answer be YES?)
If variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B on day 2 AND is equal to variable X, then variable X cannot have a value at any point in time prior to day 2.

Think of it this way. God doesn't exist in our timeline. To put it simpler, it's like He's watching a movie on a giant TV screen. Perhaps a hundred feet tall. It has every single part of the movie playing at once. He thus knows what is going to happen at 7 minutes even though He's also watching at 3 minutes. It's a bad analogy, but the point is that He has access to every single moment of time at once. He doesn't exist in time. There is no 'day 1' or 'day 2' for him. He exists in Day X, where X = all the numbers between negative infinity and positive infinity simultaneously. Thus X is anything you want it to be + all the other numbers. What this means is that the variable X is fixed to the value of the variable Y because you've already made your choice. He knows what choice you've made tomorrow, and regardless of anything you do, you cannot change your choice. Not because you're a robot, but because He already knows exactly what you're going to do. You haven't been programmed, but your actions have been correctly predicted.


Then what happens if God tells Pete on day 1 what his freely made day 2 A/B choice will be?

Pete would choose that choice, because Pete's answer occurred after he had already been told by God that he would choose that choice. It's a circle. The Chicken lays an egg and the egg turns into a chicken. You can't trace the beginning of the cycle, because it's continuous and neither ends nor begins.

Ayup.

 

[bling]

If Pete can freely choose A or B, then he can choose either A or B - regardless if anyone or anything has fore-ordained this choice for Pete.

Why would theology be the way to find an answer? Why not science?


You've contradicted yourself. If he can theoretically choose B, then he can choose B. Don't say he can choose B and say he can't choose B.


That's not the situation I'm talking about. I'm talking about a human who is faced with an upcoming decision between A or B - which can be freely made with absolutely nothing impeding the decision.

Try it yourself. Go to your kitchen/dining room and in it you may find two apples. You can freely choose to eat either apple A or apple B. If you choose apple A, there was nothing preventing you from choosing apple B. If you choose apple B, there was nothing preventing you from choosing apple A. Up until the time you choose apple A, you still could have chosen apple B.


When you (or someone else) posits a god that possesses logically impossible characteristics, it is not a choice I make to not believe this god exists. I let logic do the dirty work and I merely respond to what logic says.


Then what do you suppose Pete would feel/experience when he attempts to choose B if God has already told him he will choose A?


How can you trust something which presents something which is logically flawed?

It has been a hundred years now since Einstein wrote his “theory of Relativity” and all the scientific experiment so far have only supported this theory, so time seems to be relative.

How relative is time for God?

You keep talking about “I will make tomorrow”, “then attempts”, “upcoming decision between A or B” and “with absolutely nothing impeding the decision”. Humans are limited to a linear sequencing of events so can we limit God to that same sequencing of events?

Today you know some other people’s free will moral choices they made yesterday, so since they cannot change their choices did they not have free will in making those choices?

The God of the future knows historically every free will choice you made and can send that information back to Himself (maybe through a wormhole type mechanism) to Himself in your past, so now God of the past knows all your free will choices you will make (in your future, but you have already made in the past for the God of the future),so it is really not future for God.

 

[Akureyri]

Fore-ordination has to do with what happens, not what can happen. He can choose either A or B. Ultimately, what he will choose will be whatever God has fore-ordained for Him.

If that's true, then variable Y (Pete's day 2 A/B choice) doesn't get a value until the moment Pete makes his choice.

Because science does not provide us knowledge of the spiritual world, of God; it only provides us knowledge of this world which ultimately means nothing (it also gives us corrupted clues of the image of God, images which have been corrupted by sin).

Do you realize that many things which were once explained with a theological answer are now explained with a scientific answer. However, the quantity of things which were once explained with a scientific answer and are now explained with a theological answer is zero.

You've contradicted yourself. If he can theoretically choose B, then he can choose B. Don't say he can choose B and say he can't choose B.

He can, but he won't.

This isn't about what he does choose. It's about what he is capable of choosing. If God's day 1 knowledge (variable X) of Pete's day 2 A/B choice (variable Y) is that Pete will choose A and Pete attempts to choose B, what will happen? If he can't freely choose B, then you've presented a strawman argument, as I already said Pete's day 2 A/B choice is freely made. To say he can choose B, but he won't choose B, is a non-answer, as the question is what will happen if he does choose B.

It can be freely made. It will be freely made according to whatever God has fore-ordained to happen.

If Pete makes a day 2 A/B choice of B, at what point in time does God get this knowledge?

He will feel whatever he feels. If he acts as though he wants to go after the one he thinks God has not fore-ordained for him, then he is acting out what God has fore-ordained for him. Ultimately, whatever he does will be whatever it is that God has fore-ordained for him.

If what God has fore-ordained for Pete is a result of Pete's day 2 A/B choice, then up until Pete makes his day 2 A/B choice, God hasn't yet fore-ordained anything with respect to Pete's day 2 A/B choice.

Your timeline appears to be this:

First: Pete makes his day 2 A/B choice
Second: God fore-ordaines Pete's day 2 A/B choice based on what Pete's day 2 A/B choice is.

Because I do not worship logic. I worship God.

Why do you worship God?
Do you believe God is capable of doing anything?
Do you believe God loves everyone?

 

[Akureyri]

Really? He knows absolutely everything? Just how did he get this knowledge?

Because He created everything. He has arranged all the events to happen in the way that they happen.

Did God have choices with respect to how everything would be arranged?

Can you communicate back and forth with God?
Does God want me to believe he exists?

No. We can attempt to communicate to God, but we can never apprehend Him. He can only condescend to us.

I don't know if He wants you to believe in Him. It seems that, at least at the moment, He does not wish it for whatever purpose.

Do you believe your God loves everyone? If so, why would he not wish for me to believe he exists? If not, why is he worthy of worship?

How does he get this knowledge? Is it through observation? Or through prediction? Or some other way?

If he knows everything, then he wouldn't really be predicting things.

He gets this knowledge because He has determined the events in the way they will unfold. He doesn't predict anything.

Really? So when Pete freely chooses B on day 2, that's not really a freely made choice. By your logic, he's just a robot who is programmed to feel as if he's making a freely made choice. Just how do you come to this belief system? Do you think scientists would agree this is how things happen?

Agree with #1
With respect to #2, does variable X have a fixed value on day 1? (e.g. if it were asked on day 1, "Does God know what Pete's day 2 A/B choice is?", would the answer be YES?)
If variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B on day 2 AND is equal to variable X, then variable X cannot have a value at any point in time prior to day 2.

You are still looking at the events and God's fore-knowledge of them as though both are bound by time.

Let's backpedal a little bit. If it were asked, "on day 1, does God know infallibly what Pete's day 2 A/B choice is?", would the answer be yes? If so, then variable X (God's day 1 knowledge of Pete's day 2 a/b choice) MUST have a value on day 1. Since Pete can freely choose A or B on day 2, there are four possible scenarios with respect to every A/B choice:

1) Variable X = A; Variable Y = A (God's foreknowledge is not compromised)
2) Variable X = B; Variable Y = B (God's foreknowledge is not compromised)
3) Variable X = A; Variable Y = B (God's foreknowledge IS compromised)
4) Variable X = B; Variable Y = A (God's foreknowledge IS compromised)

Since we are talking about a free will agent who can freely make choices, then #3 and #4 MUST be possible. Therefore it remains to be answered, what will happen if God knows on day 1 that Pete will make a freely made day 2 A/B choice of A, but Pete instead chooses B?

Then what happens if God tells Pete on day 1 what his freely made day 2 A/B choice will be?

I've already answered the question. It will happen in the way that God has fore-ordained it to happen.

If you consider a non-answer an answer, then yes, you've answered the question.

Since it's already presupposed that Pete can freely choose A or B, then the only possible answer is that God's foreknowledge would be compromised.

As you seem to be having difficulty with the question, I'll rephrase it: What would happen if God's foreknowledge were compromised through the freely made choice of a human?

 

[dhh712]

If that's true, then variable Y (Pete's day 2 A/B choice) doesn't get a value until the moment Pete makes his choice.

According to his perspective. According to God's perspective, which doesn't exist in time, the variables are already assigned.

Do you realize that many things which were once explained with a theological answer are now explained with a scientific answer. However, the quantity of things which were once explained with a scientific answer and are now explained with a theological answer is zero.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic, and looking back I really don't know what this has to do with my statement except to reiterate what I just said [which is this: Because science does not provide us knowledge of the spiritual world, of God; it only provides us knowledge of this world which ultimately means nothing (it also gives us corrupted clues of the image of God, images which have been corrupted by sin). Your reply to that pretty much just states what I already stated: that science gives us many explanations of the things of this world; I'm not sure why the "do you realize" prefaces your reply, since by my statement I already attested to the fact that I realized it].

This isn't about what he does choose. It's about what he is capable of choosing. If God's day 1 knowledge (variable X) of Pete's day 2 A/B choice (variable Y) is that Pete will choose A and Pete attempts to choose B, what will happen? If he can't freely choose B, then you've presented a strawman argument, as I already said Pete's day 2 A/B choice is freely made. To say he can choose B, but he won't choose B, is a non-answer, as the question is what will happen if he does choose B.

It may be, that but is the only answer which can be had about God's fore-ordination and our free choices because it is logically an impossibility.
We'll never understand it because it doesn't make sense. Another, probably greater debate, is the origin of sin. Do you realize that saying what we freely choose what God has fore-ordained makes it seem as though He is the author of sin according to our logic? A statement can be made based on worldly logic that He is the source of all sin in the world.

If Pete makes a day 2 A/B choice of B, at what point in time does God get this knowledge?

At all points in time. Every point in time is the same to God in that there are no points in time.

Your timeline appears to be this:
First: Pete makes his day 2 A/B choice
Second: God fore-ordaines Pete's day 2 A/B choice based on what Pete's day 2 A/B choice is.

My time-line based on God's perspective is that there is none. He has fore-ordained every minute detail of all our lives from before time began. Therefore He has determined what all of us do and therefore knows what will happen, though not in any predictive sort of way, in every moment of our lives.

This seems to be the point you are missing and I suspect you are not considering it because from our worldly perspectives it is not possible, though I could be mistaken as to why you seem to be ignoring it.

Why do you worship God?

Because it is what I choose to do based on my experience of Him. I answered this more fully in another thread which specifically asked a similar question; I don't have the time to go and find it now though.

Do you believe God is capable of doing anything?

Yes

Do you believe God loves everyone?

This is open to much debate and I am leaning toward that He does not. He specifically states in the Bible that He does not when He says that He hated Esau. I may be incorrect, but it seems to me that this would not be the only person He hated. One of the harsh doctrines of my faith is that God has fore-ordained some to ever-lasting death. I don't care to think about this because it goes against what I understand of God and my experience of Him, yet often the truth is harsh. Because of the harshness of this doctrine, it has been softened or disregarded over the years by my faith (and in other sects of my faith it has been totally discarded for the idea of universal reconciliation which is a much easier idea to accept for someone who believes God is all-merciful, loving, and compassionate) just because it is something which, in our minds, is incompatible with God's abounding love, mercy, and compassion.

As humans, we can not understand how God can not love everyone (if we do believe in God); we look at people who are typically considered "evil" in this society and we can understand why we can hate them, but surely God, in all His mercy and compassion can still love them. I feel we think this way because we are rooted in our human natures and it is impossible for us to get outside of them and have a clear understanding of God's love and justice.

 

[Akureyri]

The God of the future knows historically every free will choice you made and can send that information back to Himself (maybe through a wormhole type mechanism) to Himself in your past, so now God of the past knows all your free will choices you will make (in your future, but you have already made in the past for the God of the future),so it is really not future for God.

So you are saying the first thing that happens is Pete freely makes his day 2 A/B choice. Then God gets this knowledge as a result of Pete's choice. Am I correct?

Since you say God exists at all points in time and possesses the same knowledge at all points in time - then what happens if God injects himself into the human timeline on our day 1 and tells Pete what his day 2 A/B choice will be. Pete then chooses the opposite choice of what God told him his choice would be. What happens to God's foreknowledge?

 

[Akureyri]

This is open to much debate and I am leaning toward that He does not. He specifically states in the Bible that He does not when He says that He hated Esau. I may be incorrect, but it seems to me that this would not be the only person He hated. One of the harsh doctrines of my faith is that God has fore-ordained some to ever-lasting death. I don't care to think about this because it goes against what I understand of God and my experience of Him, yet often the truth is harsh. Because of the harshness of this doctrine, it has been softened or disregarded over the years by my faith (and in other sects of my faith it has been totally discarded for the idea of universal reconciliation which is a much easier idea to accept for someone who believes God is all-merciful, loving, and compassionate) just because it is something which, in our minds, is incompatible with God's abounding love, mercy, and compassion.

As humans, we can not understand how God can not love everyone (if we do believe in God); we look at people who are typically considered "evil" in this society and we can understand why we can hate them, but surely God, in all His mercy and compassion can still love them. I feel we think this way because we are rooted in our human natures and it is impossible for us to get outside of them and have a clear understanding of God's love and justice.

Are you aware it is logically impossible for God to love everyone and be capable of doing anything if there is mass suffering and/or mass calamity.

 

[dhh712]

Did God have choices with respect to how everything would be arranged?

I imagine He did since He created everything.

Do you believe your God loves everyone? If not, why is he worthy of worship?

See my previous answer for the question as to whether God loves everyone. I can't answer the question as to why He is worthy of worship, that is something you must come to on your own. I believe He is based on my experience of Him. For me, He does not have to fit into what I can logically understand for me to worship Him. I suppose, and it does seem like, there are others who do not feel this way.

So when Pete freely chooses B on day 2, that's not really a freely made choice. By your logic, he's just a robot who is programmed to feel as if he's making a freely made choice. Just how do you come to this belief system? Do you think scientists would agree this is how things happen?

It does seem like we are just programmed to do something and it is a great mystery as to how it can not be that way. This belief system is based on the Bible which states that God has fore-ordained everything and that we make free choices. It doesn't say how this is possible. I do not think scientists would agree that this is so since it is my understanding that they utilize their understanding of things from the world and not the Bible.

Let's backpedal a little bit. If it were asked, "on day 1, does God know infallibly what Pete's day 2 A/B choice is?", would the answer be yes? If so, then variable X (God's day 1 knowledge of Pete's day 2 a/b choice) MUST have a value on day 1. Since Pete can freely choose A or B on day 2, there are four possible scenarios with respect to every A/B choice:

1) Variable X = A; Variable Y = A (God's foreknowledge is not compromised)
2) Variable X = B; Variable Y = B (God's foreknowledge is not compromised)
3) Variable X = A; Variable Y = B (God's foreknowledge IS compromised)
4) Variable X = B; Variable Y = A (God's foreknowledge IS compromised)

Since we are talking about a free will agent who can freely make choices, then #3 and #4 MUST be possible. Therefore it remains to be answered, what will happen if God knows on day 1 that Pete will make a freely made day 2 A/B choice of A, but Pete instead chooses B?


If you consider a non-answer an answer, then yes, you've answered the question.

I think we've covered this in my previous answer that God' fore-ordination of our free choices can only be a non-answer according to worldly logic. The two concepts are not logically compatible with each other.

As you seem to be having difficulty with the question, I'll rephrase it: What would happen if God's foreknowledge were compromised through the freely made choice of a human?

I have no difficulty with the question, it is just not answerable according to any worldly logic. God's foreknowledge can not be compromised since He has pre-determined everything and we all make free choices. That's the only answer I have at the moment and have stated it that way over and over again, and I'm sure I'll keep stating it over and over again from the looks of things.

 

[Akureyri]

Did God have choices with respect to how everything would be arranged?

I imagine He did since He created everything.

Are you aware that would not be possible if God knows everything? If God knows everything, then he would know what his yet to be made choices will be. For example, if God knows he will choose A out of an A/B choice and has a choice to choose either A or B, then to choose B, he would have to jeopardize his knowledge of everything. Or he could be precluded from choosing B, in which he wouldn't be able to choose B and thus wouldn't be all-powerful.

Do you believe your God loves everyone? If not, why is he worthy of worship?

See my previous answer for the question as to whether God loves everyone. I can't answer the question as to why He is worthy of worship, that is something you must come to on your own. I believe He is based on my experience of Him. For me, He does not have to fit into what I can logically understand for me to worship Him. I suppose, and it does seem like, there are others who do not feel this way.

Would it not have been easier to simply type "yes" or "no" rather than "See my previous answer for the question as to whether God loves everyone."?
Again: Do you believe your God loves everyone? (this question should require either two or three keystrokes)

I'm not asking why he is worthy of my worship. I'm asking why he is worthy of anyone's worship.

Why are you willing to worship something which is capable of preventing mass suffering but does absolutely nothing about it?

So when Pete freely chooses B on day 2, that's not really a freely made choice. By your logic, he's just a robot who is programmed to feel as if he's making a freely made choice. Just how do you come to this belief system? Do you think scientists would agree this is how things happen?

It does seem like we are just programmed to do something and it is a great mystery as to how it can not be that way. This belief system is based on the Bible which states that God has fore-ordained everything and that we make free choices. It doesn't say how this is possible. I do not think scientists would agree that this is so since it is my understanding that they utilize their understanding of things from the world and not the Bible.

What do you suppose is a more reliable guide to how the world works?
A) a book which was written some 2,000 years ago by authors whose credibility cannot be verified
B) the studies of advanced modern science of the 21st century?

Let's backpedal a little bit. If it were asked, "on day 1, does God know infallibly what Pete's day 2 A/B choice is?", would the answer be yes? If so, then variable X (God's day 1 knowledge of Pete's day 2 a/b choice) MUST have a value on day 1. Since Pete can freely choose A or B on day 2, there are four possible scenarios with respect to every A/B choice:

1) Variable X = A; Variable Y = A (God's foreknowledge is not compromised)
2) Variable X = B; Variable Y = B (God's foreknowledge is not compromised)
3) Variable X = A; Variable Y = B (God's foreknowledge IS compromised)
4) Variable X = B; Variable Y = A (God's foreknowledge IS compromised)

Since we are talking about a free will agent who can freely make choices, then #3 and #4 MUST be possible. Therefore it remains to be answered, what will happen if God knows on day 1 that Pete will make a freely made day 2 A/B choice of A, but Pete instead chooses B?

If you consider a non-answer an answer, then yes, you've answered the question.

I think we've covered this in my previous answer that God' fore-ordination of our free choices can only be a non-answer according to worldly logic. The two concepts are not logically compatible with each other.

Once again, what will happen if God knows on day 1 that Pete will make a freely made day 2 A/B choice of A, but Pete instead chooses B? If you don't know, then just say so. If you do know, please share with me what would happen. Thanks!

As you seem to be having difficulty with the question, I'll rephrase it: What would happen if God's foreknowledge were compromised through the freely made choice of a human?

I have no difficulty with the question, it is just not answerable according to any worldly logic. God's foreknowledge can not be compromised since He has pre-determined everything and we all make free choices. That's the only answer I have at the moment and have stated it that way over and over again, and I'm sure I'll keep stating it over and over again from the looks of things.

If God's foreknowledge can't be compromised, then either:
A) God doesn't have infallible foreknowledge
B) Humans and God can't make freely made choices

Since you already asserted that God can make choices, then you must agree that God doesn't have infallible foreknowledge. Is that correct? Or do you wish to retract your assertion that God can make choices?

 

[Scott1979]

When people choose to believe in God they accept the notion that God knows everything. He knows what's going to happen in future. We don't He already knows if we're going to pick A, B, C, D or whatever. We're not going to fool God. The decision we make at the time we make is already known by God. I don't know if your over analyzing this or what but it sounds to me you are comparing God to a human who can and will change there mind. He knows all plain and simple.

I would like to ask what you hope to accomplish by this continued thread? You have shot down pretty much every answer in here. What are you looking for? Any religion out in the world is based partly on faith. Faith is a belief in something that we do not know whether it exists or not. Those who choose to believe in God, believe He is an all knowing, all powerful God. That's what a person chooses to believe, and there is nothing wrong with that. If YOU choose to believe in God then you will learn that what you are asking isn't possible. We do have free will to choose what we do in our life. For those that believe in God they come to the understanding that God wants us to make the right choices. He offers the promises of the Bible and Heaven for those who live there life for Him. Once again, that's what people choose to believe. The argument you have going here doesn't have a logical outcome because you are getting into what people believe and not concrete fact.

 

[dhh712]

Are you aware that would not be possible if God knows everything? If God knows everything, then he would know what his yet to be made choices will be. For example, if God knows he will choose A out of an A/B choice and has a choice to choose either A or B, then to choose B, he would have to jeopardize his knowledge of everything. Or he could be precluded from choosing B, in which he wouldn't be able to choose B and thus wouldn't be all-powerful.

It's clearly something beyond my capability to understand and thus I can't furnish you an answer (which is also why I said I imagine He makes choices, yet to me a choice is something intrinsic to a human's nature; since God is immutable and infallible, I suppose a choice would be something which isn't compatible to His nature. However, it can only be understood as a choice to us that He created us. Could that be understood in a different way, one which is biblically accurate? It seems the question is best suited for someone who has way more theological and biblical knowledge than I do that the moment).

It seems you want me to explain God to you in terms which can make logical sense to you and as I emphasized before, that I can not do.

Would it not have been easier to simply type "yes" or "no" rather than "See my previous answer for the question as to whether God loves everyone."?
Again: Do you believe your God loves everyone? (this question should require either two or three keystrokes)

Well, it may be easier, but that is the way I write. I usually do not have simple yes or no answers and I will not give one now. If you do not care for the manner in which I write, you simply do not have to write to me; yet I do not care to change my writing style when I do not recognize a purpose for it. I already directed to where the answer can be found, the bottom of post #93, and I do not care to reiterate it.

1) I'm not asking why he is worthy of my worship. I'm asking why he is worthy of anyone's worship.

2) Why are you willing to worship something which is capable of preventing mass suffering but does absolutely nothing about it?

1) The question can only be answered once someone has a relationship with God. Clearly there are many who do not feel He is worthy of worship. For me, He is worthy of my worship because of the relationship I have with Him. And by worship, I mean the center of my life.

2) The center of my life is God and not humans, though they are second. If the choice comes to God or humans, I will choose God.

What do you suppose is a more reliable guide to how the world works?
A) a book which was written some 2,000 years ago by authors whose credibility cannot be verified
B) the studies of advanced modern science of the 21st century?

The book to which you refer in A does not explain how the world works according to the way I perceive you are meaning it, as in scientific objectives and purposes; therefore, of course choice B would be a better source for this.

Once again, what will happen if God knows on day 1 that Pete will make a freely made day 2 A/B choice of A, but Pete instead chooses B? If you don't know, then just say so. If you do know, please share with me what would happen. Thanks!

Since it can't happen, I of course would not know what will happen in the situation as you state it.

If God's foreknowledge can't be compromised, then either:
A) God doesn't have infallible foreknowledge
B) Humans and God can't make freely made choices

This is the way we would understand it. Yet, as opposed to what our worldly logic tells us: God has infallible foreknowledge and humans have free will. And He probably can make choices, yet I don't know this from Scripture, so that is just a speculation.

Since you already asserted that God can make choices, then you must agree that God doesn't have infallible foreknowledge. Is that correct? Or do you wish to retract your assertion that God can make choices?

I wouldn't say I asserted it since I was more or less speculating. It seems the matter of God having choices is something I'm not sure of though it seems perhaps He has them in a way which doesn't compromise His infallible foreknowledge and our own free will. This of course, will not make any logical sense to us, but then so much of God can not be explained by our logical minds. You may get more informed answers to this question in the Christian Apologetics forum; I would imagine the people on there are more versed in logic and biblical understanding than I am at the moment.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

What happens if a circle becomes a square, or you start to see musical tones rather than hear them? Can the sky decide tomorrow to turn orange? Can fish decide to talk to humans? Can you wake up and decide gravity no longer applies to you?

 

[com7fy8]

Let's say on day 1, God knows I will choose A out of a day 2 A/B choice. When day 2 comes around, I freely choose B instead of A. What happens to God's foreknowledge that I would choose A?

God is in control of what you can do. So, you can't do other than what God knows you will do. Because He knows because He controls!

But in your heart you can choose B that He does not foreknow, but you can't actually do it. In your heart you can be wishing and trying to do B, but if He knows you will do A, you will

So . . . no, God is not under the control of you "freely" choosing something. You do not have a "free will" that can have you succeeding in whatsoever you jolly well please.

But God is mainly about conforming His children to the image of Jesus. He is not mainly about knowing and controlling, which are issues for people of worldly ego. God is about loving, most of all; and His love does a lot more and better than only to know and control.

But Satan is the one who has the problem with being mainly concerned with who knows and who controls.

So, it is not wise to be attentive to only what you can do and know, because with God we can do so better "and with God we have real love." (So, if you could go against God's foreknowledge, this would mean you have a big problem of being so out of reach of God.) And Satan is the one who can think he knows something will happen but it doesn't. So, if you really mean Satan, and not God . . . Satan does not really have foreknowledge > he boasts what he claims will happen, but God controls

It is wise not to boast about what we will do in the future. "If the Lord wills," we will do this or that. "The Lord willing," we will. It is good to desire to do what is good and have this attitude that we will if God pleases. We are offering to God, not dictating and controlling. We need His grace to make us successful, to make us submissive to Him and His leading, in order to see what He really desires that we do