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Variable X = God's day 1 knowledge of Pete's day 2 A/B choice.sounds like Y = Pete's final decision for day 2 as well ...
Variable X = God's day 1 knowledge of Pete's day 2 A/B choice.
Variable Y = Pete's day 2 A/B choice
You're saying:
1) Variable X has a value on day 1 and this value will never change
2) Variable X must be equal to variable Y
3) Variable Y gets a human chosen value on day 2.
Not all three of those can be true, as variable Y could potentially be something different from variable X.
Which of 1 through 3 is contrary to what you believe?
As your manager can freely choose to either fire you or not fire you, it would be impossible for God (or anyone) to have infallible foreknowledge of what your manager will do.It seems that you're talking about the apparent contradiction of how we can have free will if God is sovereign and has fore-ordained everything. It is something which can not be understood completely and largely must be taken on faith (which I understand is not something which is accepted by worldly rational people).
The way I understand it is that God has created us in our entirety--all our personality, desires, internal conflicts, etc., all of that too as well as our physical selves. He has created it all and knows us inside and out in the perfect entirety of our beings.
One example I had thought of earlier is this: For example, imagine I work in a pharmacy and am 5'3". There are upper shelves in the pharmacy which are quite a lot higher than I am and I have to go to these regularly in order to retrieve prescription bottles. Being short and of course, since I work in a pharmacy, extremely busy, I can't really see what's on that top shelf except for what is right at the edge of it. One day I hurriedly am looking for a full bottle of tramadol extended-release and there is only a partial one up on that top shelf. I reach my hand up to try to find some behind it--apparently, there's nothing. This is not something we dispense regularly, so I figure we must be out and send it on to be ordered. Next day, my supervisor finds it has been ordered. He--being almost a foot taller than me--goes to the shelf and there is one off to the side a few spaces over to where it should have been. He comes to me and demands an answer. I explain I didn't see it there. I have made a few mistakes like this before, and he's decided to fire me for my incompetency.
This is something which God has fore-ordained for me. It is much easier to understand since it involves something easily demonstrated such as height. I can't be something I'm not. I couldn't have been a foot taller and have seen that hidden tramadol bottle which was practically invisible to me.
When you choose A out of an A/B choice, up until the time you actually made the choice, could you still have chosen B?He has designed our personalities in the same way. We can't be something we're not.
That's my best flawed understanding of it which still makes it seem like we really don't have free will. Nevertheless, it ultimately is something we must take on faith, trusting in God rather than what our worldly reasoning and logic can tell us about God.
Are you saying we can freely choose A or B? Or are you saying we can't freely choose A or B? If it has been fore-ordained that Pete will choose A out of an A/B choice and he attempts to choose B, what will happen?To answer your question though, of course the third option is contrary to what I believe. It is not about us, it is about God. We do freely choose what we want to do. I don't think there is any one of us who can say they chose a will other than their own. There is always a motive, and that motive lies in the self. I can not think of one example where someone would be forced to desire to do something outside of their own intentions. Even if the will is out of self-sacrifice, it would then be that they are fulfilling their own moral ideals. Even if someone "forces" them to do something at the threat of torture. Then the motive would be preservation of life or well-being. The action and the will must be separate because of course, someone can have a brain-tumor or some like disease which would make them do some thing which they do not wish to do. The focus is on what we want to do, not what we actually do (free will, not free action).
We can't get around the fact that we have responsibility for our own actions--we do what we ourselves will ourselves to do. What we also can't get around is that God has designed our bodies and everything within them. We choose whatever it is that has been fore-ordained for us.
How do you know people were designed by God?I have given a physical example with the height situation. It seems to me that you are probably intelligent enough to know that there is nothing within us that is not physical--all our emotions, desires, internal conflicts, whatnot--they all are rooted in our physical bodies based on our chemical makeup. Just as God has designed a person to be a specific height and have a specific metabolism to which a person's weight will conform, so He has also designed the specific chemical makeup which will express the so-called "non-physical" attributes of a person such as their emotions, desires, etc.
As your manager can freely choose to either fire you or not fire you, it would be impossible for God (or anyone) to have infallible foreknowledge of what your manager will do.
When you choose A out of an A/B choice, up until the time you actually made the choice, could you still have chosen B?
Are you saying we can freely choose A or B? Or are you saying we can't freely choose A or B? If it has been fore-ordained that Pete will choose A out of an A/B choice and he attempts to choose B, what will happen?
How do you know people were designed by God?
What real thing is it you are calling "God"?
Variable X = God's day 1 knowledge of Pete's day 2 A/B choice.
Variable Y = Pete's freely made day 2 A/B choice.
Pete's freely made choice is the same as Pete's final decision.
Is anything about that not clear?
What exactly do you mean by fore-ordained?We freely choose whatever God has fore-ordained us to.
I'm not sure. It's getting a little too complicated and not worth discussing such minute details. I don't think what you're asking really has much importance. After thinking on it a little, I would have to say no since I can't do something that I don't have any ability to do. It would always be that one choice for me. Before it occurs, of course, the possibilities are quite varied to our perspectives because we, who operate within time, see our actions as a variety of possibilities. Yet what we will actually choose has been fore-ordained by God based on how He has created us. That will never alter.
We freely choose whatever it is God has fore-ordained for us. I've explained it to the best of my ability. It will not be a satisfying explanation for those who demand answers that utilize worldly logic. Our ways are not His ways. Many times, there will be no satisfying logical answer. That is when we are called to put our trust in Him and not in our own understanding.
Because God created everything on earth.
The Lord of the universe who is revealed to us in His letter he wrote to us.
It seems to me that all your answers revolve around how you seem to not realize that God does not operate according to any time. He sees everything as they have already happened. All the time which has ever occurred on the earth and what will ever happen on the earth are laid out before Him in one instant. It is not a difficult feat for Him to know what we are going to do as it has already occurred to Him. That is my own flawed understanding of how His fore-ordination works to Him. His fore-knowledge means that He has already determined what has and will come to pass. I certainly can not understand it in any other way than what I have described above. I'm sure that's not a perfect understanding of it (that's why I said it was flawed).
What exactly do you mean by fore-ordained?
1) If it were asked on day 1, "Does God know what Pete's day 2 A/B choice will be?", would the answer be YES?
2) If the answer is yes and variable X represents God's day 1 knowledge of Pete's day 2 A/B choice, would you agree that variable X has a fixed value as of day 1?
3) Would you agree if Pete freely chooses A or B on day 2, and variable Y represents Pete's day 2 A/B choice, that variable Y does not get a value until day 2?
So you're saying when Pete freely makes an A/B choice and chooses A, that up until the time he made the choice, he still could not have potentially chosen B. Correct?' If so, then you have not stuck to the presupposition that Pete can freely choose either A or B - and you are essentially presenting a strawman argument.God had determined the events which take place upon the earth from before time began.
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) No. It has already been determined what he will freely choose.
So you're saying when Pete freely makes an A/B choice and chooses A, that up until the time he made the choice, he still could not have potentially chosen B. Correct?'
If so, then you have not stuck to the presupposition that Pete can freely choose either A or B - and you are essentially presenting a strawman argument.
Please explain how it is logically possible for someone else to have infallible foreknowledge of a freely made decision you or I have yet to make. Try as hard as you want and you'll find you can't, as it is logically impossible.Well, he could have, yet he ultimately will not.
I suppose that is worldly logic may call it, and that is why it is not acceptable to those of the world. I've already told you that my explanation will not make logical sense. I'm not quite sure how any one can believe that we do not freely choose what we do (for the most part). Is there any one forcing you to write on this forum? Is there any one forcing me to respond? It is quite obvious to all the world that we make free choices. What is not obvious to our physical senses is that God has fore-ordained all that has and will come to pass. Since that does not fit within the realm of worldly logic, it is not accepted as the truth that it is.
I wonder sometimes why those of the world do not believe things they can not understand, as though the world is only limited to what they can perceive with their logical minds. It does not make logical sense that we can make free choices and that our choices have been fore-ordained for us; I've already explained it the best way I could in my example a few posts previous to this. It will always in this world remain a great mystery as to how that can be possible and is something which must largely be taken on faith (by the way, the topic is one of great theological debate too, going into ideas of supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism-- quite interesting topics I'm reading about).
Nevertheless, I definitely can not understand something as complex as quantum physics. In my opinion, I think it is quite foolish to limit what we believe to be true to just that which we can understand, as though the workings of God can be explainable to our excessively limited in knowledge minds, which can only understand things by way of the logic we've developed. God is so much greater than all of our knowledge put together; the most intelligent person on earth compared to Him is no better than a babbling idiot.
I understand that you adhere to logic; that is why I've told you that my explanation as to how God has fore-ordained what we freely choose to do would not make any sense to you. It seems to me that we've run ourselves into a brick wall with this particular discussion. Would you not agree? Yet, I suppose if there is something along this topic still available for discussion, I'll answer whatever further questions you may have.
Please explain how it is logically possible for someone else to have infallible foreknowledge of a freely made decision you or I have yet to make. Try as hard as you want and you'll find you can't, as it is logically impossible.
Please explain how it is logically possible for someone else to have infallible foreknowledge of a freely made decision you or I have yet to make. Try as hard as you want and you'll find you can't, as it is logically impossible.
False analogy, as in the numerous examples I cited, the human can freely choose between A or B.I've already explained it as best as I could. To try to briefly summarize as best I can, though a thorough explanation is given in post#64 : Just as we are impeded by doing things based on our height or other such physical attributes, the millions of variables which make up our personalities which are based on physical attributes as well--our chemical makeup--also impedes us from doing certain things. It is in this way, the best way I can understand it, that God's fore-ordains what we will freely choose.
You may want to reword that, as you are putting words in my mouth. I have heard the arguments for a god and find them highly insufficient for me to believe that their god exists. Perhaps if you (or anyone) could provide a real live demonstration of God's omniscience and/or omnipotence, then I would find that to be at least on the road to being sufficient evidence. See http://www.christianforums.com/t7778732/Yet that is only how I understand it and I am no logistician, though I feel I do have a fair grasp of the basic principles of worldly logic. For a long while, I had the same arguments which you have against belief in God, that it just didn't add up. I almost feel as though I am talking to myself as I was some years ago.
What would happen if God told you on day 1 what your day 2 a/b choice will be. Let's say he knows it will be 'A'. You then attempt to choose B. What happens? This is the question that has yet to be adequately answered in this thread.And I entirely concede that there is no logical way to make God's fore-ordination understandable to us (in other words, it is logically impossible). There is no contention by me with that statement. The theological world acknowledges this as well.
I enjoy spending time trying to understand how & why people could believe the things most Christians believe. There is little or no basis for much of what Christians believe.Is there any new material/topics/thoughts/questions you have? Because I feel that you are saying the same thing over and over again, and that I am saying the same thing over and over again. Not that I don't enjoy writing to you, it just seems like we've already exhausted the discussion. Yet if this is how you enjoy spending your time, please do not let me deter you from it.
We're not talking about another human (subject to space-time), but about God (NOT subject to space-time), who sees all of time all at the same time. Not matter how many times you try to quickly switch your choice before God can figure it out, he already knows what you will (freely) ultimately choose. It seems to me that you're making an assumption that he CANNOT know what you will eventually freely choose, but I don't see where you've provided sufficient evidence to support that assumption.
Suppose you have 24 hours to come to a decision. You can change you mind a billion times between now and then. Not only will God know about each and every time you switch your choice, he knows what you will eventually choose at the very last second when you try to quickly make a sleight of hand switch.
So, focusing back on your question: What if I do something different than what God's foreknowledge says I will do?
Answer: That would be impossible.
What would happen if God told you on day 1 what your day 2 a/b choice will be. Let's say he knows it will be 'A'. You then attempt to choose B. What happens? This is the question that has yet to be adequately answered in this thread.
False analogy, as in the numerous examples I cited, the human can freely choose between A or B.
If Pete is presented with an opportunity to freely choose either A or B, and he ends up choosing A, how is his ability to choose B (which it's already been established he could freely choose) impeded?
You may want to reword that, as you are putting words in my mouth. I have heard the arguments for a god and find them highly insufficient for me to believe that their god exists. Perhaps if you (or anyone) could provide a real live demonstration of God's omniscience and/or omnipotence, then I would find that to be at least on the road to being sufficient evidence.
What would happen if God told you on day 1 what your day 2 a/b choice will be. Let's say he knows it will be 'A'. You then attempt to choose B. What happens? This is the question that has yet to be adequately answered in this thread.
I enjoy spending time trying to understand how & why people could believe the things most Christians believe. There is little or no basis for much of what Christians believe.
What you are saying is that your freedom to choose "B" would be removed. I guess that would make you a robot of some sort.I think you are continuing to miss the point that God exists beyond space-time, and he therefore knows what we will eventually choose.
So, what would happen if God told me that I would eventually choose "A", but then I attempted to choose "B"? Simple, I would eventually freely choose to change my mind back to choosing "A" just like God said that I would eventually do.
What you are saying is that your freedom to choose "B" would be removed. I guess that would make you a robot of some sort.