What if I do something different than what God's foreknowledge says I will do?

[Akureyri]

Nothing 'happens to' it. Scripture says all things were predestined before the womb and according to his divine will and plan.

When you chose B, God knew that. And all that comes after.

How can there be a limit to 'all knowing unto infinity' ?

So one day before I freely chose either A or B, was it entirely undetermined what I would choose on the following day?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Let's say on day 1, God knows I will choose A out of a day 2 A/B choice. When day 2 comes around, I freely choose B instead of A. What happens to God's foreknowledge that I would choose A?

What you are asking is self refuting, and basically an example of "playing with concepts" rather than an assertion of logic.

 

[Akureyri]

What you are asking is self refuting, and basically an example of "playing with concepts" rather than an assertion of logic.

Whether it's playing with concepts, an assertion of logic or neither, God's day 1 knowledge of my day 2 A/B choice would be invalidated if I choose A if God knew on day 1 that I would choose B.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Whether it's playing with concepts, an assertion of logic or neither, God's day 1 knowledge of my day 2 A/B choice would be invalidated if I choose A if God knew on day 1 that I would choose B.

Why not just ask whether God is omniscient, or not?

 

[Soul2Soul]

Let's say on day 1, God knows I will choose A out of a day 2 A/B choice. When day 2 comes around, I freely choose B instead of A. What happens to God's foreknowledge that I would choose A?

How do you know that God expected you to choose A and not B or B and not A, since He knew what you were going to do anyway? You can't be certain of which one God knew you would choose can you? How do you know that God's foreknowledge wasn't that you would choose B?

 

[dhh712]

Let's assign the variable X to what God's foreknowledge of what my A/B choice will be.

And let's assign the variable Y to what my freely made A/B choice is.

First, correct me if I'm wrong about how you view this:
1) Variable X must equal variable Y
2) On day 1, variable X has a fixed value and can't change
3) On day 1, variable Y doesn't have a value
4) On day 2, variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B

Are items 1 to 4 correct about how you view this?

Now let's say on day 1, variable X is equal to A.
On day 2, variable Y is freely assigned the value B.
This defeats the assertion in item #1 in which it is said that variable X must equal variable Y.

Therefore, it is impossible for God (or anyone for that matter) to infallibly know what someone will freely choose at a later point in time.

Make sense?

(I haven't read all the posts, so I apologize if this has already been brought up. It actually seems like it has in one of the first few posts.)

I think it's already been explained that God operates outside of time. It isn't something easily understood and may be something which can never be completely understood. Your equation here and your other speculations (that I've read thus far) only make sense if the two subjects (God and the person) are both constrained by time.

God's foreknowledge is perfect. We can and do freely choose to do things. He has created us all. He knows exactly what we will do in all possibilities and in that way He has foreknowledge of what we will freely choose to do (and how each of our choices effects a multitude of other people's choices. For me, that sort of thinking about all the possibilities of billions of people and how their billions upon billions of choices can effect billions upon billions of other people's choices throughout thousands or millions of years is overwhelming).

That is the only way I can understand it and even that I'm sure is flawed by my limited ability to understand God.

 

[Akureyri]

How do you know that God expected you to choose A and not B or B and not A, since He knew what you were going to do anyway? You can't be certain of which one God knew you would choose can you? How do you know that God's foreknowledge wasn't that you would choose B?

Let's say God's day 1 knowledge of your day 2 a/b choice is variable X. And your day 2 a/b choice is variable Y. If the question, "does God know what your day 2 a/b choice will be?" is asked on day 1 and the answer is YES, then variable X must have a value on day 1 - either a or b. Variable Y doesn't get a value until day 2.

Now let's say variable X is A. On day 2, you then can choose either A or B to be the value of variable Y. If you choose B, then X and Y aren't equal to each other, thus nullifying God's foreknowledge.

 

[Akureyri]

(I haven't read all the posts, so I apologize if this has already been brought up. It actually seems like it has in one of the first few posts.)

I think it's already been explained that God operates outside of time. It isn't something easily understood and may be something which can never be completely understood. Your equation here and your other speculations (that I've read thus far) only make sense if the two subjects (God and the person) are both constrained by time.

God's foreknowledge is perfect. We can and do freely choose to do things. He has created us all. He knows exactly what we will do in all possibilities and in that way He has foreknowledge of what we will freely choose to do (and how each of our choices effects a multitude of other people's choices. For me, that sort of thinking about all the possibilities of billions of people and how their billions upon billions of choices can effect billions upon billions of other people's choices throughout thousands or millions of years is overwhelming).

That is the only way I can understand it and even that I'm sure is flawed by my limited ability to understand God.

If it is asked on day 1, "does God know what my day 2 A/B choice will be?" will the answer be YES? So let's say God knows on day 1 that I will choose A out of my day 2 A/B choice. I then freely choose B. What happens to God's foreknowledge?

 

[dhh712]

If it is asked on day 1, "does God know what my day 2 A/B choice will be?" will the answer be YES? So let's say God knows on day 1 that I will choose A out of my day 2 A/B choice. I then freely choose B. What happens to God's foreknowledge?

Whatever God has fore-ordained will happen. You will freely choose whatever it is God has fore-ordained for you.

 

[Soul2Soul]

Let's say God's day 1 knowledge of your day 2 a/b choice is variable X. And your day 2 a/b choice is variable Y. If the question, "does God know what your day 2 a/b choice will be?" is asked on day 1 and the answer is YES, then variable X must have a value on day 1 - either a or b. Variable Y doesn't get a value until day 2.

Now let's say variable X is A. On day 2, you then can choose either A or B to be the value of variable Y. If you choose B, then X and Y aren't equal to each other, thus nullifying God's foreknowledge.

Thanks for breaking it down a bit more - I appreciate it. I think I'm getting what you suggest above although I wonder ... if foreknowledge is "Knowledge or awareness of something before its existence or occurrence." (The Free Dictionary) then the variable for your day 2 a/b choice should be X ... the same as God's day 1 (fore)knowledge variable X. The value of your variable for day 2 a/b choice has already been assigned by (God's) foreknowledge hasn't it? So if (God's foreknowledge) day 1 variable is X which is A ... your a/b choice on day 2 will also be A because that is what foreknowledge "determines" you will do even though you had an a/b choice. If your day 2 choice from variable Y is B then foreknowledge would have had God's day 1 knowledge as the variable of Y with a value of B.

I think it's about X or Y and not whether X = Y .... am I making any sense?

 

[Akureyri]

Whatever God has fore-ordained will happen. You will freely choose whatever it is God has fore-ordained for you.

Variable X = God's day 1 knowledge of Pete's day 2 A/B choice.
Variable Y = Pete's day 2 A/B choice

You're saying:
1) Variable X has a value on day 1 and this value will never change
2) Variable X must be equal to variable Y
3) Variable Y gets a human chosen value on day 2.

Not all three of those can be true, as variable Y could potentially be something different from variable X.

Which of 1 through 3 is contrary to what you believe?

 

[Akureyri]

Thanks for breaking it down a bit more - I appreciate it. I think I'm getting what you suggest above although I wonder ... if foreknowledge is "Knowledge or awareness of something before its existence or occurrence." (The Free Dictionary) then the variable for your day 2 a/b choice should be X ... the same as God's day 1 (fore)knowledge variable X. The value of your variable for day 2 a/b choice has already been assigned by (God's) foreknowledge hasn't it? So if (God's foreknowledge) day 1 variable is X which is A ... your a/b choice on day 2 will also be A because that is what foreknowledge "determines" you will do even though you had an a/b choice. If your day 2 choice from variable Y is B then foreknowledge would have had God's day 1 knowledge as the variable of Y with a value of B.

I think it's about X or Y and not whether X = Y .... am I making any sense?

1) Variable X has a value on day 1 and this value will never change
2) Variable X must be equal to variable Y
3) Variable Y gets a human chosen value on day 2.

It sounds like what you're saying is that variable X doesn't really get a value until variable Y is given its human selected value on day 2. Correct?

 

[Soul2Soul]

1) Variable X has a value on day 1 and this value will never change
2) Variable X must be equal to variable Y
3) Variable Y gets a human chosen value on day 2.

It sounds like what you're saying is that variable X doesn't really get a value until variable Y is given its human selected value on day 2. Correct?

1) agree
2) disagree
3) disagree

Variable X's (God's foreknowledge) value on day 1 is forseeing your (human choice) variable and it's value for day 2 ...so it will be the same variable and value on day 2 for the both of you. So if your chosen variable for day 2 is going to be Y with a value of B even though you had a choice A/B, God's foreknowledge (of what you would end up choosing) on day 1 would have been variable Y with a value of B.

What I am saying is that whatever variable and value you ended up selecting on day 2 it will be the same as God's variable and value on day 1 .... it's going to be XA, XB, YA or YB ... whichever variable and value you end up choosing on day 2 will have been foreseen by God and His day 1 variable and value would equal your day 2 variable and value.

 

[Dusky Mouse]

Let's say on day 1, God knows I will choose A out of a day 2 A/B choice. When day 2 comes around, I freely choose B instead of A. What happens to God's foreknowledge that I would choose A?

I don't think you quite understand what Omniscience means.
All knowing unto infinity.
Scripture says all things are predestined. That includes your life. Scripture says your life was predestined before the womb, before you came into being in the womb.

There is nothing that something that knows all can not know. And when your life is predestined according to God's will, for his pleasure and glory, and as part of his omnipotent (infinitely powerful, "power-filled") plan for that life, there is then no thing you can do that God isn't aware of nor planned or allowed.
Free will therefore is a myth. It's a human delusion.

 

[Akureyri]

1) agree
2) disagree
3) disagree

Variable X's (God's foreknowledge) value on day 1 is forseeing your (human choice) variable and it's value for day 2 ...so it will be the same variable and value on day 2 for the both of you. So if your chosen variable for day 2 is going to be Y with a value of B even though you had a choice A/B, God's foreknowledge (of what you would end up choosing) on day 1 would have been variable Y with a value of B.

What I am saying is that whatever variable and value you ended up selecting on day 2 it will be the same as God's variable and value on day 1 .... it's going to be XA, XB, YA or YB ... whichever variable and value you end up choosing on day 2 will have been foreseen by God and His day 1 variable and value would equal your day 2 variable and value.

Which is a function of which?
Is God's foreknowledge (variable X) a function or Pete's day 2 choice (variable Y)?

OR

Is Pete's day 2 A/B choice (variable Y) a function of God's foreknowledge (variable X)?

You have said you disagree with #3 that variable Y is a human made choice of A or B on day 2. Yet I defined it as a human made choice. Explain why you disagree.

 

[Akureyri]

I don't think you quite understand what Omniscience means.
All knowing unto infinity.
Scripture says all things are predestined. That includes your life. Scripture says your life was predestined before the womb, before you came into being in the womb.

There is nothing that something that knows all can not know. And when your life is predestined according to God's will, for his pleasure and glory, and as part of his omnipotent (infinitely powerful, "power-filled") plan for that life, there is then no thing you can do that God isn't aware of nor planned or allowed.
Free will therefore is a myth. It's a human delusion.

If it were asked on day 1, "does God know what Pete's day 2 A/B choice will be?", would the answer be YES? If so, then variable X (God's day 1 knowledge of Pete's day 2 A/B choice) must be populated with a value of A or B on day 1.

If Pete can freely choose A or B on day 2, then what would happen if his day 2 choice (variable Y) is B after variable X already has a value of A?

Does that make sense?

 

[Soul2Soul]

Which is a function of which?
Is God's foreknowledge (variable X) a function or Pete's day 2 choice (variable Y)?

OR

Is Pete's day 2 A/B choice (variable Y) a function of God's foreknowledge (variable X)?

You have said you disagree with #3 that variable Y is a human made choice of A or B on day 2. Yet I defined it as a human made choice. Explain why you disagree.

In response to your first question I believe it's neither of the two options you suggested.

I disagreed with #3 because it it involves variable Y (with a choice of 2 values) ... introducing a contradictory variable to God's (foreknowledge) variable X and consequently giving foreknowledge questionable value/legitimacy.

If your day 2 variable and choice of value is to be Y and A/B respectively and you choose YB .... foreknowledge would know (your eventual day 2 choice of YB) on day 1 and have YB on day 1 ... the only variable that applies for day 1 and day 2 is Y.

Maybe we have a different understanding of foreknowledge? How would you define/describe foreknowledge?

 

[Akureyri]

In response to your first question I believe it's neither of the two options you suggested.

I disagreed with #3 because it it involves variable Y (with a choice of 2 values) ... introducing a contradictory variable to God's (foreknowledge) variable X and consequently giving foreknowledge questionable value/legitimacy.

If your day 2 variable and choice of value is to be Y and A/B respectively and you choose YB .... foreknowledge would know (your eventual day 2 choice of YB) on day 1 and have YB on day 1 ... the only variable that applies for day 1 and day 2 is Y.

Maybe we have a different understanding of foreknowledge? How would you define/describe foreknowledge?

Let's backpedal a bit. If it were asked on day 1, "Does God know what Pete's day 2 A/B choice will be?" and the answer were YES, then God would have foreknowledge of Pete's day 2 A/B choice. In other words, variable X would have an A or B value as of day 1.

 

[Soul2Soul]

can you clarify something for me please?

Is the variable X representing Pete's final decision for day 2?

 

[Akureyri]

can you clarify something for me please?

Is the variable X representing Pete's final decision for day 2?

Variable X = God's day 1 knowledge of Pete's day 2 A/B choice.
Variable Y = Pete's freely made day 2 A/B choice