What if I do something different than what God's foreknowledge says I will do?

[dayhiker]

You will be vaporized that very second.

Let's say on day 1, God knows I will choose A out of a day 2 A/B choice. When day 2 comes around, I freely choose B instead of A. What happens to God's foreknowledge that I would choose A?

 

[Daniel Alievsky]

You've forgotten that the presupposition is that I can freely choose either A or B. If God knows on day 1 what my freely made day 2 A/B choice will be, then it raises the question of what will happen if God knows on day 1 that I will choose A on day 2 and I end up choosing B. If God knows on day 1 that I will make a day 2 A/B choice of A, and I cannot freely choose B - due to God's foreknowledge, then you are changing the parameters such that I cannot freely choose A or B.

Why do you think that if God knows at day 1 about your choice at day 2, then it means that you cannot freely choose A or B?
Someone here already asked: at day 1 you know youself about your choice at day 0 (in the past), but it does not mean that your choice was not free. Why? Because you cannot change your decision on the base of this knowledge. Here you also cannot change your decision for the day 2, because there are no ways for you to get God's knowledge.

False analogy. If the novel has already been completed, regardless of whether or not it has been read, the choices of the personages in the novel have already been established.

The same situation. Personages have no ability to get the author's knowledge. So, their choices are free. Of course, if he is a good author

Another way to look at it this (as I described to RDKirk)

Let's assign the variable X to what God's foreknowledge of what my A/B choice will be.

And let's assign the variable Y to what my freely made A/B choice is.

First, correct me if I'm wrong about how you view this:
1) Variable X must equal variable Y
2) On day 1, variable X has a fixed value and can't change
3) On day 1, variable Y doesn't have a value
4) On day 2, variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B

Are items 1 to 4 correct about how you view this?

Now let's say on day 1, variable X is equal to A.
On day 2, variable Y is freely assigned the value B.
This defeats the assertion in item #1 in which it is said that variable X must equal variable Y.

Therefore, it is impossible for God (or anyone for that matter) to infallibly know what someone will freely choose at a later point in time.

Make sense?

Error in the step 2. The term "on the day 1" has no sense for variable X. God exists out of the time.

Correct description is another. There is some function of the time y(t), which describes your behaviour. For example, y(t) is a probability that at the day 2 you'll choose B. Then y(t) can vary (according your mood) for t<2, but y(t)=1.0 for t>=2. In addition, x is a constant (not variable): it is God's foreknowledge of what will be your A/B choice at day 2. So, by definition x=y(2)

Now it is obvious: you cannot suppose that x=A, if y(2)=B.

 

[J98Cherokee]

This is getting very complex. God has not pre established any of your decisions before hand. We freely choose, He simply knows what we are going to choose. Your "change of mind" in choosing doesn't change the fact that He knows what you will ultimately do.

You don't mess up any of His plans by deviating from a script because He doesn't write your script. You write your own script, He just knows how you will write it and He is with you through it.

Does He lead us and guide us? Absolutely! But that's because we have made the decision to allow His Spirit to do so.

 

[bling]

That choice has already been made, so that analogy doesn't work.


Because if on day 1, God knows your day 2 a/b choice will be a, and you then freely choose b, God foreknowledge would be invalidated.



If it is asked on day 1, "Does God know what my day 2 freely made choice will be?" and the answer is YES, then my day 2 freely made choice has been stamped in time on day 1 and must have a value then. If that value on day 1 is A and I end up choosing B, then God was wrong and his foreknowledge is fallible.

Another way to look at it this (as I described to RDKirk)

Let's assign the variable X to what God's foreknowledge of what my A/B choice will be.

And let's assign the variable Y to what my freely made A/B choice is.

First, correct me if I'm wrong about how you view this:
1) Variable X must equal variable Y
2) On day 1, variable X has a fixed value and can't change
3) On day 1, variable Y doesn't have a value
4) On day 2, variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B

Are items 1 to 4 correct about how you view this?

Now let's say on day 1, variable X is equal to A.
On day 2, variable Y is freely assigned the value B.
This defeats the assertion in item #1 in which it is said that variable X must equal variable Y.

Therefore, it is impossible for God (or anyone for that matter) to infallibly know what someone will freely choose at a later point in time.

Make sense?

It makes perfect “sense” if God is limited by time (like humans are), but that is not the situation.

You assume tomorrow does not already exist for God, but that is assuming time is not relative for God. Yet we have experimentally shown, over the last 100 years, time is relative.

 

[Akureyri]

You get your question answered 10 times and you just ask it 11th time.

No one has explained what will happen if I do something in conflict with what God's foreknowledge says I will do. So my question hasn't been answered.

God is outside of time so it does not matter how many times you change your mind He knows them all.

It's already been established that at points in time prior to my A/B choice being made, God knows what A/B choice will be made. Therefore, the value of variable X (or God's knowledge of my day 2 A/B choice) has been established prior to the time I make my A/B choice and can't change.

Now let's say God knows I will choose A out of my A/B choice. Since it is presuppose that I can freely choose A or B, then let's say I freely choose B. What happens to God's foreknowledge that I would choose A?

In your mind you refuse to even allow the possibility of Somebody greater then you, able to know more then you and living in the concept greater then you can understand.
You experience Him and His timeless nature but in order for that you must first believe in Him and submit to Him first.

How is one supposed to believe in something for which all available evidence points to it not existing?

In your pride though you cannot do that and, instead, you are trying to figure Him out. You will fail. It is a fact because He is greater then your ability to understand.

It's not an issue of pride. It's an issue of me not being able to choose to believe in the existence of something for which there is no available evidence pointing to its existence.

 

[Akureyri]

Why do you think that if God knows at day 1 about your choice at day 2, then it means that you cannot freely choose A or B?

If on day 1, God knows what my day 2 A/B choice will be (or variable X), then variable X has a value on day 1 - a value of either A or B. This value can't change.

Let's say this value is A. I CAN freely choose A or B. If I choose B, then God's foreknowledge has been compromised.

Someone here already asked: at day 1 you know youself about your choice at day 0 (in the past), but it does not mean that your choice was not free. Why? Because you cannot change your decision on the base of this knowledge. Here you also cannot change your decision for the day 2, because there are no ways for you to get God's knowledge.

According to Christians, the variable X (or God's knowledge of my day 2 A/B choice) gets its value BEFORE variable Y gets its value (or my day 2 A/B choice). Thus it raises the question of what happens if God knows variable X to be A and then I freely make variable Y equal to B.

You and other Christians have created a situation in which
1) variable X gets a value before variable Y
2) variable X must equal variable Y
3) variable Y can be freely chosen to be either equal or not equal to variable X

The same situation. Personages have no ability to get the author's knowledge. So, their choices are free. Of course, if he is a good author

What if the book says the personage will kill another personage. Then the personage chooses to not kill the other personage?

Error in the step 2. The term "on the day 1" has no sense for variable X. God exists out of the time.

If it were asked on day 1, "Does God know what my day 2 A/B choice will be?" Unless the answer is no, then on day 1, then what my day 2 A/B choice will be has already been established and cannot change.

Correct description is another. There is some function of the time y(t), which describes your behaviour. For example, y(t) is a probability that at the day 2 you'll choose B. Then y(t) can vary (according your mood) for t<2, but y(t)=1.0 for t>=2. In addition, x is a constant (not variable): it is God's foreknowledge of what will be your A/B choice at day 2. So, by definition x=y(2)

Now it is obvious: you cannot suppose that x=A, if y(2)=B.

Please elaborate.

 

[Akureyri]

This is getting very complex. God has not pre established any of your decisions before hand.

So you are saying on day 1, God doesn't know what my day 2 A/B choice will be. Correct?

We freely choose, He simply knows what we are going to choose.

Then what happens if we freely choose something in conflict with what God knows we will choose?

Your "change of mind" in choosing doesn't change the fact that He knows what you will ultimately do.

Is God's day 1 knowledge of my day 2 A/B choice a function of what I choose on day 2?

Let's call my day 2 choice variable Y. Does variable Y have a fixed and unchangeable value as of day 1?\

 

[Daniel Alievsky]

If on day 1, God knows what my day 2 A/B choice will be (or variable X), then variable X has a value on day 1 - a value of either A or B. This value can't change.

Let's say this value is A. I CAN freely choose A or B. If I choose B, then God's foreknowledge has been compromised.

Your choice is not free, when YOU KNOW about the result, for example A, you want to choose B - and cannot. Here, really, there is no freedom of choice. But you cannot know, whether X=A or X=B. You cannot say "X=A", because you cannot know it. So, you freely choose A or B, though God knows your choice.

After all, why namely God? I sometimes can predict choice of my son well enough. He don't know yet, what will he choose, A or B, but I know, because I know him better than he himself. Today I already know, that X=A for him. Does it mean that his choice A/B is not free? No. Of course, if I shall not tell him anything.

According to Christians, the variable X (or God's knowledge of my day 2 A/B choice) gets its value BEFORE variable Y gets its value (or my day 2 A/B choice). Thus it raises the question of what happens if God knows variable X to be A and then I freely make variable Y equal to B.

You and other Christians have created a situation in which
1) variable X gets a value before variable Y
2) variable X must equal variable Y
3) variable Y can be freely chosen to be either equal or not equal to variable X

What if the book says the personage will kill another personage. Then the personage chooses to not kill the other personage?

If it were asked on day 1, "Does God know what my day 2 A/B choice will be?" Unless the answer is no, then on day 1, then what my day 2 A/B choice will be has already been established and cannot change.

Please elaborate.

Y is a function of the time. I can give more simple example: let's suppose the our person every day chooses between A and B, and Y(t) is the choice for day t. This allows you to say: Y(2) is not defined yet when t=1, Y(2) will be chosen when t=2.

X is not a function, it is a constant. By definition, we suppose that X=Y(2): it is knowledge of God (or of the father of a little child) about the decision, which the person will make at day t=2. So, you cannot say "X is already set" or "X does not have a value yet", because X does not depend on t at all: the words "already" and "yet" have no sense.

The difference between a usual father and God is only that a man cannot be absolutely sure about X value, he can make mistake - maybe, a child will choos another variant. God does not make mistakes. But if He does not say you about your future choice, I don't see any problems.

Your personage did not read this book. So, his choise is free. He can choose not to kill, but then it would be another book.

BTW, I'm not a Christian.

 

[Akureyri]

Your choice is not free, when YOU KNOW about the result, for example A, you want to choose B - and cannot. Here, really, there is no freedom of choice. But you cannot know, whether X=A or X=B. You cannot say "X=A", because you cannot know it. So, you freely choose A or B, though God knows your choice.

When I say freely made choice, I mean you could choose either A or B up until the time you make the choice. Does that differ from what you think freely made choice means?

After all, why namely God? I sometimes can predict choice of my son well enough. He don't know yet, what will he choose, A or B, but I know, because I know him better than he himself. Today I already know, that X=A for him. Does it mean that his choice A/B is not free? No. Of course, if I shall not tell him anything.

And what if your son then chooses B? What does that do to your knowledge that he would choose A?

Y is a function of the time. I can give more simple example: let's suppose the our person every day chooses between A and B, and Y(t) is the choice for day t. This allows you to say: Y(2) is not defined yet when t=1, Y(2) will be chosen when t=2.

Please stick to my illustration in which God's foreknowledge of my day 2 choice is variable X and my actual day 2 choice is variable Y.

X is not a function, it is a constant. By definition, we suppose that X=Y(2): it is knowledge of God (or of the father of a little child) about the decision, which the person will make at day t=2. So, you cannot say "X is already set" or "X does not have a value yet", because X does not depend on t at all: the words "already" and "yet" have no sense.

If it were asked on day 1, "Does God know what my day 2 A/B choice will be?", and the answer is YES, then variable X must have a value on day 1.

The difference between a usual father and God is only that a man cannot be absolutely sure about X value, he can make mistake - maybe, a child will choos another variant. God does not make mistakes. But if He does not say you about your future choice, I don't see any problems.

If God doesn't make mistakes, then let's say God knows on our day 1 that I will choose A out of a day 2 A/B choice - and I then proceed to freely choose B? WHY CAN'T YOU OR ANYONE ELSE HERE ANSWER THAT QUESTION?

Your personage did not read this book. So, his choise is free. He can choose not to kill, but then it would be another book.

The choice of the personage isn't really made, as the personage doesn't really make choices. Its choices are made by the author. So your analogy is flawed.

 

[Sedoy]

Your question has been answered in a few replies on the first page.

God does not pre-determine your answer, he pre-knows it. Your answer comes out of your free will but God knows what it is going to be long before you were even born not matter how many times you change your mind because He is outside of time itself.

Just because you disagree with an answer it does not mean that answer is not valid. It only means that your bias and pre-determined mind is not willing to accept it.

 

[Akureyri]

Your question has been answered in a few replies on the first page.

God does not pre-determine your answer, he pre-knows it. Your answer comes out of your free will but God knows what it is going to be long before you were even born not matter how many times you change your mind because He is outside of time itself.

Just because you disagree with an answer it does not mean that answer is not valid. It only means that your bias and pre-determined mind is not willing to accept it.

Why do you avoid answering my question.

If God (or anyone) knows on day 1 what my day 2 A/B choice will be, then my day 2 A/B choice MUST have a value (perhaps unknown to me) on day 1. To make this simple, we'll call God's day 1 knowledge of what my day 2 A/B choice variable X. That means on day 1, variable X MUST be equal to either A or B. The value can be hidden, but it is fixed and can't change.

Now let's say I can freely choose A or B on day 2. One of four scenarios can occur:
1) If variable X is equal to A and I choose B, then God was wrong
2) If variable X is equal to A and I choose A, then God was right
3) If variable X is equal to B and I choose B, then God was right
4) If variable X is equal to B and I choose A, then God was wrong

I know you'll probably say scenarios 1 & 4 are impossible. But since variable X has a value on day 1, and I can freely choose either A or B, then the potential for me to choose something other than what God knows I will choose is fairly good. Thus the question, what happens if I choose something contrary to what God's foreknowledge says I will choose?

If you don't know, then be honest and say so. But don't tell me scenarios 1 & 4 aren't possible when you are in support of presuppositions which indicate that scenarios 1 & 4 are possible.

 

[Daniel Alievsky]

When I say freely made choice, I mean you could choose either A or B up until the time you make the choice. Does that differ from what you think freely made choice means?

No. If nobody prevents you from making the choice, your choice is free.

And what if your son then chooses B? What does that do to your knowledge that he would choose A?

What does mean "what if"? He really choose A.
My knowledge is not absolute, and sometimes (for example, in 1% of cases) I make a mistake. In other words, my son chooses B, and it just means that I've made a mistake. In a case of God, the probability of a mistake is 0%. In both cases, the son has freedom of choice.

Please stick to my illustration in which God's foreknowledge of my day 2 choice is variable X and my actual day 2 choice is variable Y.

God's foreknowledge X is not a variable, it is a constant, not depending on the time t.
Your actual choice is a variable, more precisely, a function of time, Y(t).

If it were asked on day 1, "Does God know what my day 2 A/B choice will be?", and the answer is YES, then variable X must have a value on day 1.

This does not make sense. The constant cannot have a value "on day 1". The constant PI is always 3.1415926353..., it cannot be "on day 1" or "on day 2". According YOUR definition, X is a constant, namely it is God's knowledge about Y(2), which is always equal to actual Y(2).

If God doesn't make mistakes, then let's say God knows on our day 1 that I will choose A out of a day 2 A/B choice - and I then proceed to freely choose B? WHY CAN'T YOU OR ANYONE ELSE HERE ANSWER THAT QUESTION?

You don't know X! You don't know what does God know at any day (X does not depend on time, X=Y(2) by definition). So, if you will freely choose B, it means that X=B.
Let's say that PI=89 and that 2*2=Moon. You cannot let say false things.

The choice of the personage isn't really made, as the personage doesn't really make choices. Its choices are made by the author. So your analogy is flawed.

You may think so, but then my analogy, really, will not help. But we can also think that personages live in some other world, the world of imagination. Such position can help to understand relations between us and God.

 

[Akureyri]

No. If nobody prevents you from making the choice, your choice is free.

The original presuppositions allow for a freely made choice of either A or B.

What does mean "what if"? He really choose A.
My knowledge is not absolute, and sometimes (for example, in 1% of cases) I make a mistake. In other words, my son chooses B, and it just means that I've made a mistake. In a case of God, the probability of a mistake is 0%. In both cases, the son has freedom of choice.

So you're saying variable Y (my freely made day 2 A/B choice) is predicted by God. Correct?

God's foreknowledge X is not a variable, it is a constant, not depending on the time t.
Your actual choice is a variable, more precisely, a function of time, Y(t).

Then what if the constant X has a value of A on day 1. Then I freely choose B. (per the presupposition that I can freely choose A or B) What then happens to God's foreknowledge that I would choose A?

If it were asked on day 1, "Does God know what my day 2 A/B choice will be?", and the answer is YES, then variable X must have a value on day 1.

This does not make sense. The constant cannot have a value "on day 1". The constant PI is always 3.1415926353..., it cannot be "on day 1" or "on day 2". According YOUR definition, X is a constant, namely it is God's knowledge about Y(2), which is always equal to actual Y(2).

If it were asked on day 1, "Does God know what my day 2 A/B choice will be?" and the answer is YES, then how could variable X (or God's day 1 knowledge of my day 2 A/B choice) not have a value of A or B?

If God doesn't make mistakes, then let's say God knows on our day 1 that I will choose A out of a day 2 A/B choice - and I then proceed to freely choose B? WHY CAN'T YOU OR ANYONE ELSE HERE ANSWER THAT QUESTION?

You don't know X! You don't know what does God know at any day (X does not depend on time, X=Y(2) by definition). So, if you will freely choose B, it means that X=B.
Let's say that PI=89 and that 2*2=Moon. You cannot let say false things.

You're not following along. When it is our day 1, God knows what my day 2 A/B choice will be. This means my day 2 A/B choice (or variable X) MUST have a value as of day 1. If it doesn't have a value on day 1, then if it is asked on day 1 - in present tense - "does God know what my day 2 A/B choice will be?", then the answer MUST be no.

The choice of the personage isn't really made, as the personage doesn't really make choices. Its choices are made by the author. So your analogy is flawed.

You may think so, but then my analogy, really, will not help. But we can also think that personages live in some other world, the world of imagination. Such position can help to understand relations between us and God.

There is something basic about this which you don't quite understand. And this lack of understanding is what is preventing you from answering the question of what will happen if I freely choose something that is in conflict with what God's foreknowledge says I will choose.

 

[Sedoy]

Why do you avoid answering my question.

Why do you avoid reading my replies? You cannot grasp concept of absence of time no amount of mathematical gibberish is going to help you.
Absence of time can be experienced but you do not want to try that. It cannot be described though. One from four-dimensional world cannot describe what it is like to somebody who only lived in three-dimensional world. Does not make me special in any way but if you ask God and you need to know that He will show it to you.

God is outside of time. There is no "before" and "after" to God. No amount of tricks done by you can change that.

 

[Sedoy]

Your question has been answered several times by several people. Just because you refuse to understand that answer it does not make it not valid.

I heard that somewhere in Amazon there are tribes that have no concept of &#8220;number&#8221;. They have &#8220;one&#8221;, &#8220;few&#8221; and &#8220;many&#8221;. Now try to explain concept of math to them!

I am not saying that you are stupid. I am just saying that before you try to understand a concept you must, first, allow possibility of concept to exist.

Time does not have to be ever present just because you have never experienced absence of it.

 

[Daniel Alievsky]

The original presuppositions allow for a freely made choice of either A or B.

Of course.

So you're saying variable Y (my freely made day 2 A/B choice) is predicted by God. Correct?

Of course. All values Y(t) for every t are predicted by God.

Then what if the constant X has a value of A on day 1. Then I freely choose B. (per the presupposition that I can freely choose A or B) What then happens to God's foreknowledge that I would choose A?

Constant X is a constant, so it cannot have a value "on day". Really, it can be equal to A: X=A. It means (by definition) that your freely choose A. If you freely choose B, it means that X=Y(2)=B.

If it were asked on day 1, "Does God know what my day 2 A/B choice will be?" and the answer is YES, then how could variable X (or God's day 1 knowledge of my day 2 A/B choice) not have a value of A or B?

X is not a variable, it is a constant. And, really, X=A or X=B: X=Y(t), the result of your free choice on day 2.

You're not following along. When it is our day 1, God knows what my day 2 A/B choice will be. This means my day 2 A/B choice (or variable X) MUST have a value as of day 1. If it doesn't have a value on day 1, then if it is asked on day 1 - in present tense - "does God know what my day 2 A/B choice will be?", then the answer MUST be no.

X is not a variable, it is a constant. It cannot "have no value on day", it does not depend on time! Yes, God knows the value of X, and it is Y(2). But you don't know. It makes your choice free.

There is something basic about this which you don't quite understand. And this lack of understanding is what is preventing you from answering the question of what will happen if I freely choose something that is in conflict with what God's foreknowledge says I will choose.

Really, I don't understand the sense of your question. It seems like a question "what if 2*2=5? Then Moon is made of chocolate".
You defined X as Y(2), so your question "what if X=A, but Y(2)=B" has no sense.

 

[Akureyri]

Why do you avoid reading my replies?

I've read your replies. While I can understand why you think you have answered my question, you actually haven't answered my question. Please re-read the title of the thread.

You cannot grasp concept of absence of time no amount of mathematical gibberish is going to help you.
Absence of time can be experienced but you do not want to try that. It cannot be described though. One from four-dimensional world cannot describe what it is like to somebody who only lived in three-dimensional world. Does not make me special in any way but if you ask God and you need to know that He will show it to you.

God is outside of time. There is no "before" and "after" to God. No amount of tricks done by you can change that.

If on day 1, the question, "Does God know what my day 2 A/B choice will be?" and the answer is YES, then this value becomes a stamp in time and the day 1 value of this CANNOT chance. So let's say the day 1 value of the foreknowledge of my day 2 A/B choice is A (remember, it MUST have a value as of day 1). Since it is presupposed that I can freely choose A or B on day 2, what then happens if I choose B? YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED THAT!!!

 

[Sedoy]

I've read your replies. While I can understand why you think you have answered my question, you actually haven't answered my question. Please re-read the title of the thread.

Your question is based on false idea that there is "before" and "after" to God so you can ask your question all you want, it is just a question that has no meaning. You can ask why water runs uphill and get no answer because it just does't.

 

[Dusky Mouse]

Let's say today, God knows I will choose A out of an A/B choice that I will make tomorrow. I then choose B. What happens to God's foreknowledge?

Nothing 'happens to' it. Scripture says all things were predestined before the womb and according to his divine will and plan.

When you chose B, God knew that. And all that comes after.

How can there be a limit to 'all knowing unto infinity' ?

 

[Akureyri]

Your question is based on false idea that there is "before" and "after" to God so you can ask your question all you want, it is just a question that has no meaning. You can ask why water runs uphill and get no answer because it just does't.

Sedoy - we need to backpeddle a bit. If it were asked on day 1, "does God know what my day 2 A/B choice will be?", you would answer YES. Correct?

If you answered YES to that question, would you agree that as of day 1, my day 2 A/B choice must already be defined?