What have you understood about the charcater of The Ten Commandments??

[Sophrosyne]

I remember my initial observation that you reduced the Holiness of the Law with a carnal list of 'principles'. If that's your method of "going with Jesus", I think you're setting yourself up for a lonely journey to nowhere nice. Jesus didn't give you permission to change the old covenant, nor replace it after He took it away.

You had admitted that sin exists without the Law, and this latest reply of yours doesn't acknowledge this at all. In fact, it has nothing to do with my post.

It is part of their game... to distill things down to basic elements and take the one element they desire and when it is like another element of something unrelated they claim they are identical. Like taking a potato and a grape and making alcohol out of both and then saying that grapes must be potatoes.

 

[Elder 111]

I remember my initial observation that you reduced the Holiness of the Law with a carnal list of 'principles'. If that's your method of "going with Jesus", I think you're setting yourself up for a lonely journey to nowhere nice. Jesus didn't give you permission to change the old covenant, nor replace it after He took it away.

You had admitted that sin exists without the Law, and this latest reply of yours doesn't acknowledge this at all. In fact, it has nothing to do with my post.

I never admitted that sin was without the law. You pinned that on me. My attempt was to show you that there was sin before Sinai and that sin being a transgression of the law must mean that the law was in existence before it was written down.
Your argument is that it was not written so it was not. That would mean that Cain sinned but he did not commit murder? Just because you do not see it written down before? Tell me what was Cain guilty of?
God rejected Cain's offering because it was not a blood offering like Abel's. Why? Was God not unfair, there was nothing written down about offering a lamb.
Why did not Joseph sleep with the woman? There nothing written down about adultery.
Why did God destroy Sodom? There was nothing written down about men with men.
Why did God case out the Canaanites? There was nothing written down about idolatry.
I will not believe in nonsense! You want me to believe that Abraham was guilty of adultery with Hagar but that there was no law that said thou shall not commit adultery? Why did the king of Egypt give back Sarah when he realized that she was Abraham's wife?

 

[Elder 111]

No transgressing the law is breaking the law. Sin was before the law so It couldn't be breaking the law.

So explain exactly what John is saying.

 

[VictorC]

I never admitted that sin was without the law. You pinned that on me.

Fresh from the Memory Hole, with bold applied to make your admission easier to spot:

Next verse. 9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
What is sin? 1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.It is clear that both the Jews that had the law and the Gentles that had not the law are in the same boat. Same condemnation.

Notice that you correctly show that sin is present in both those who had the Law and those who didn't...

So is it really that the law did not apply to no one but the Jews?

...and then question the limited jurisdiction of the Law you just admitted it has!

You admitted that the Gentiles are sinners, and they don't have the Law. And, that is consistent with the Biblical record and Paul's many summaries regarding its limited jurisdiction. You've seen these plenty of times that denial becomes moot.

My attempt was to show you that there was sin before Sinai and that sin being a transgression of the law...

Sin existed before the covenant from Mount Sinai - another admission from you that is consistent with the Biblical record. You have seen Paul's comments regarding this record:

Romans 4
14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Paul differentiates between sin and transgressions, and maybe you jumped ahead and were thinking of Romans 5:13 where it says "For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law".

You have also seen 1 John 5:17 specify that "All unrighteousness is sin", so your attempt to limit sin as reliant on the Law's existence is contrary to John's own definition. Where he writes sin is lawlessness (rendered 'transgression' in your translation, already shown to be inaccurate in your 'Why not Jesus' thread), the operative verbs are all in the present tense. They are not perfect tense, meaning that they can't be applied to a time before the Law existed. I have no trouble accepting what John wrote, whereas your blinders allow you to see one verse and not what John wrote two chapters later. Not only so, but you're defiant of what Paul wrote summarizing the Law's jurisdiction as well as what Moses wrote.

...must mean that the law was in existence before it was written down.

This is the most abhorrent contradiction to what the Biblical authors wrote that it is a total fairy tale. Is this what your church actually teaching, to ignore all of Scripture to fabricate a lie based on one verse while ignoring the verbal tense staring you in the face?

How many times have I asked you to show me where the Gentiles in Barbados were ever given the Ten Commandments or the sabbath commandment contained in it? And by your silence you have admitted that Barbados is a Gentile nation that was estranged from God's grace during the tenure of the Law, as Ephesians 2:11-16 describes the Gentiles' condition before the Gospel.

You've contradicted Scripture, and you've contradicted yourself.

Your argument is that it was not written so it was not. That would mean that Cain sinned but he did not commit murder? Just because you do not see it written down before? Tell me what was Cain guilty of?
God rejected Cain's offering because it was not a blood offering like Abel's. Why? Was God not unfair, there was nothing written down about offering a lamb.
Why did not Joseph sleep with the woman? There nothing written down about adultery.
Why did God destroy Sodom? There was nothing written down about men with men.
Why did God case out the Canaanites? There was nothing written down about idolatry.
I will not believe in nonsense! You want me to believe that Abraham was guilty of adultery with Hagar but that there was no law that said thou shall not commit adultery? Why did the king of Egypt give back Sarah when he realized that she was Abraham's wife?

Because you refuse to differentiate sin apart from transgression, you're openly claiming that none of these acts were sin after seeing that there was no Divine law the perpetrators could have transgressed.
Your post is nonsense.
Sin existed before the Law; that is the Biblical record, and that is what you're contradicting.

 

[from scratch]

I never admitted that sin was without the law. You pinned that on me. My attempt was to show you that there was sin before Sinai and that sin being a transgression of the law must mean that the law was in existence before it was written down.

What???Don't you even believe Moses? Moses said the law was not given to anyone before Israel according to Deut 5. So where do you get the idea the law was given or existed in the garden or immediately thereafter?

Your argument is that it was not written so it was not. That would mean that Cain sinned but he did not commit murder? Just because you do not see it written down before? Tell me what was Cain guilty of?
God rejected Cain's offering because it was not a blood offering like Abel's. Why? Was God not unfair, there was nothing written down about offering a lamb.
Why did not Joseph sleep with the woman? There nothing written down about adultery.
Why did God destroy Sodom? There was nothing written down about men with men.
Why did God case out the Canaanites? There was nothing written down about idolatry.
I will not believe in nonsense! You want me to believe that Abraham was guilty of adultery with Hagar but that there was no law that said thou shall not commit adultery? Why did the king of Egypt give back Sarah when he realized that she was Abraham's wife?

Your questions are only for the purpose of argument and serve no purpose outside of that context except to show unbelief.

 

[Elder 111]

Fresh from the Memory Hole, with bold applied to make your admission easier to spot:

You admitted that the Gentiles are sinners, and they don't have the Law. And, that is consistent with the Biblical record and Paul's many summaries regarding its limited jurisdiction. You've seen these plenty of times that denial becomes moot.


Sin existed before the covenant from Mount Sinai - another admission from you that is consistent with the Biblical record. You have seen Paul's comments regarding this record:

You have also seen 1 John 5:17 specify that "All unrighteousness is sin", so your attempt to limit sin as reliant on the Law's existence is contrary to John's own definition. Where he writes sin is lawlessness (rendered 'transgression' in your translation, already shown to be inaccurate in your 'Why not Jesus' thread), the operative verbs are all in the present tense. They are not perfect tense, meaning that they can't be applied to a time before the Law existed. I have no trouble accepting what John wrote, whereas your blinders allow you to see one verse and not what John wrote two chapters later. Not only so, but you're defiant of what Paul wrote summarizing the Law's jurisdiction as well as what Moses wrote.


This is the most abhorrent contradiction to what the Biblical authors wrote that it is a total fairy tale. Is this what your church actually teaching, to ignore all of Scripture to fabricate a lie based on one verse while ignoring the verbal tense staring you in the face?

How many times have I asked you to show me where the Gentiles in Barbados were ever given the Ten Commandments or the sabbath commandment contained in it? And by your silence you have admitted that Barbados is a Gentile nation that was estranged from God's grace during the tenure of the Law, as Ephesians 2:11-16 describes the Gentiles' condition before the Gospel.

You've contradicted Scripture, and you've contradicted yourself.



Because you refuse to differentiate sin apart from transgression, you're openly claiming that none of these acts were sin after seeing that there was no Divine law the perpetrators could have transgressed.
Your post is nonsense.
Sin existed before the Law; that is the Biblical record, and that is what you're contradicting.

Accountability demands that you identify what cult you belong to, so that others on a public forum can see what your comments represent.

I am of a cult because I maintain that God's holy law always exited, written on stone or not. That the sin committed by those before Sinai were guilty of breaking the Ten Commandment law.
Your quotation above highlights the fact that where there is "no law there is no transgression" So how can there be sin with law before Sinai? What was there to violate? Why was Joseph not sleeping with Potiphars's wife?
Your argument mean that there was no reason for him not to.
Gen 39: 9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

If Joseph did not know that God required him not to commit adultery why did he make this statement?
Would you have us to believe that there was no knowledge of God' holy requirements?
That God did not reveal to Adam and none of His prophets His holy law before Sinai?
That God got rid of the Canaanites for idol worship without ever letting them know that they should not worship Idols?
If you know that god I don't know him.
​

 

[Elder 111]

What???Don't you even believe Moses? Moses said the law was not given to anyone before Israel according to Deut 5. So where do you get the idea the law was given or existed in the garden or immediately thereafter?Your questions are only for the purpose of argument and serve no purpose outside of that context except to show unbelief.

That is why there is no logical answer to them.

 

[JohnRabbit]

I am of a cult because I maintain that God's holy law always exited, written on stone or not. That the sin committed by those before Sinai were guilty of breaking the Ten Commandment law.
Your quotation above highlights the fact that where there is "no law there is no transgression" So how can there be sin with law before Sinai? What was there to violate? Why was Joseph not sleeping with Potiphars's wife?
Your argument mean that there was no reason for him not to.
Gen 39: 9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

If Joseph did not know that God required him not to commit adultery why did he make this statement?
Would you have us to believe that there was no knowledge of God' holy requirements?
That God did not reveal to Adam and none of His prophets His holy law before Sinai?
That God got rid of the Canaanites for idol worship without ever letting them know that they should not worship Idols?
If you know that god I don't know him.
​

i'd add:

Romans 7:7(NKJV)
7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

 

[Elder 111]

Another poll question. It is a pity that 52.17% of persons voting got this wrong.
A Christians can be saved without living up to the principles of the Ten Commandments.
Commandment 1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Now tell me which Christian truly believes that he can have another god and be saved by the God he rejects?
Why do we fall for this folly?
Who of you believe that you can live with the pastor's wife and God would accept that type of behaviour?
Come on Grow up!

 

[from scratch]

I am of a cult because I maintain that God's holy law always exited, written on stone or not. That the sin committed by those before Sinai were guilty of breaking the Ten Commandment law.
Your quotation above highlights the fact that where there is "no law there is no transgression" So how can there be sin with law before Sinai? What was there to violate? Why was Joseph not sleeping with Potiphars's wife?
Your argument mean that there was no reason for him not to.
Gen 39: 9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

If Joseph did not know that God required him not to commit adultery why did he make this statement?
Would you have us to believe that there was no knowledge of God' holy requirements?
That God did not reveal to Adam and none of His prophets His holy law before Sinai?
That God got rid of the Canaanites for idol worship without ever letting them know that they should not worship Idols?
If you know that god I don't know him.
​

You remind me of the pot smoking hippies of the 60's and 70's.

 

[from scratch]

That is why there is no logical answer to them.

Great so you present only an argument of frustration and destruction.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Another poll question. It is a pity that 52.17% of persons voting got this wrong.
A Christians can be saved without living up to the principles of the Ten Commandments.
Commandment 1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Now tell me which Christian truly believes that he can have another god and be saved by the God he rejects?
Why do we fall for this folly?
Who of you believe that you can live with the pastor's wife and God would accept that type of behaviour?
Come on Grow up!

Don't forget "idols"......

Exodus 20:4
Not thou shall make unto thyself an idol/eidwlon #1497, any representation which in heavens from above, and which in land from beneath, and which in waters from beneath to land.

1 John 5:21
Little children, guard/keep yeselves from the idols/eidwlwn <1497>! Amen.

Reve 9:20
and the rest of the men who not were killed in these blows/stripes did not repent out of the works of the hands of them,
that no they should be worshipping the demons and the idols/eidwla <1497> of the gold and the silver and the brass/copper and the stone and the wood,
which neither to be seeing are able, nor to be hearing nor to be walking
[Exodus 20:4/1 John 5:21]

.



.

 

[from scratch]

i'd add:

Romans 7:7(NKJV)
7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

So you admit the Ten Commandments are the law. Wonderful admission. I love it!!!!

 

[Sophrosyne]

Don't forget "idols"......

Exodus 20:4
Not thou shall make unto thyself an idol/eidwlon #1497, any representation which in heavens from above, and which in land from beneath, and which in waters from beneath to land.

1 John 5:21
Little children, guard/keep yeselves from the idols/eidwlwn <1497>! Amen.

Reve 9:20
and the rest of the men who not were killed in these blows/stripes did not repent out of the works of the hands of them,
that no they should be worshipping the demons and the idols/eidwla <1497> of the gold and the silver and the brass/copper and the stone and the wood,
which neither to be seeing are able, nor to be hearing nor to be walking
[Exodus 20:4/1 John 5:21]

.

I would say that those who seemingly worship the Law instead of the Savior have made into it an idol. Jesus saw this in the Pharisees they exalted the Law above God.

 

[from scratch]

Another poll question. It is a pity that 52.17% of persons voting got this wrong.
A Christians can be saved without living up to the principles of the Ten Commandments.
Commandment 1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Now tell me which Christian truly believes that he can have another god and be saved by the God he rejects?
Why do we fall for this folly?
Who of you believe that you can live with the pastor's wife and God would accept that type of behaviour?
Come on Grow up!

You promote incidental actions are obedience which has been proven wrong.

 

[Sophrosyne]

So you admit the Ten Commandments are the law. Wonderful admission. I love it!!!!

Better bookmark that in case he equates otherwise later.

 

[from scratch]

So Sin should not be defined as it is in 1 John 3: 4? If that is your position?

No that can't be the definition of sin. Lack of faith is also a sin and not required by the law.

 

[from scratch]

Why should I ignore a plain statement of the bible?
Sin is breaking the law. There is therefore no sin before Sinai that is not also the breaking of the law.
First. Eating of the tree. Adam and Eve placed themselves/serpent above God. Idol worship. God said one thing they listened to someone other than God. He was not first/only God. There is no sin that is not a violation of the Ten Commandments.

We wonder why you do.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Don't forget "idols"......
​

​

I would say that those who seemingly worship the Law instead of the Savior have made into it an idol.

Jesus saw this in the Pharisees they exalted the Law above God.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
JESUS AND PAUL VS THE PHARISEES



.

 

[from scratch]

I am sticking with the 47.83% in responding to the following poll question.
The principles of the Ten Commandments is what Jesus meant will not change. Mat 5:17-19.
Jesus clearly stated nothing shall change in connection with the Ten Commandments.
Sorry, I going with Jesus.

Your changing merchandise won't cause the cash register to go cha ching.