What have you understood about the charcater of The Ten Commandments??

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

A teacher would become invalid if they tried to say that one portion of history no longer mattered while the events surrounding that same portion still did.

"France was a monarchy, and duly consisted as a monarchy, from the reign of the reign of the Capetians until the French Revolution."

That is no longer the case. It was certainly the case then, but it is no longer the case.

"Hong Kong was part of the British Empire and subject to the crown."

That is also no longer the case, because the lease expired.

So what's the problem?

 

[Elder 111]

It was a bandaid on the bleeding wound festering on mankind called sin until the doctor (Jesus) could make a way for us to be healed of it. In other words it was better than nothing as mankind had very few (Abraham) men that would faithfully follow him so the Law was created to force men to not do evil. People who had faith in God didn't need the Law in reality but because it was given to Israel as a nation they too had it forced upon them.

Hold it!
You have a bleeding wound and place something on it to make it worse and call it a band aid? According to popular opinion, it's like a vampire not a band aid, the Law that is.
You seriously believe that the law was forced on people so as not to do evil? You are making me afraid. Am i taking to an alien?
So God forced the law on people? Please!

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Only if you want to be so. For instance, The ten commandments can not be of Moses and God too. It either belongs to Moses or to God.

What? That's, like, the most reasonable one. Of course they can be of both. Is the book of Romans both "of God" and "of Paul?" Of course it is.

 

[Rescued One]

John 14

21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Is obedience to God the same as trying to keep and be judged by the law?

Do Christians love Christ?

How did Charles Spurgeon explain the relationship between being saved by Christ's sacrifice and keeping the commandments?

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Do you think God made us to be...wrong?

I think that the "God made" expression isn't entirely complete as we are both a product of God making us and our parents choices along with sins in the midst causing all sorts of chaos. I typically have a hard time blaming God for the birth of children who have severe problems.

 

[Elder 111]

I wouldn't call being judged by the Law and found guilty and denied access to heaven salvation. The bible says that those whose standard of righteousness is the Law will be judged by that standard and those whose standard is Jesus and what he did including his sinless life and the cross will be judged AS if they were Jesus themselves and found righteous. I have a feeling that only a very few will be allowed in heaven via the Law as God may be merciful and let some by even though in reality they did fail to keep it. To take that chance against tremendous odds when you have a guaranteed way through Christ is foolish IMO.

By the way, you are still suggesting two means of salvation here.
Try this. Salvation is the gift of God through faith. By faith and dependence upon God we all will keep His ten commandments not to be saved but because we love Him. With Jesus in you, you have no compulsion to steal etc.
Romans 7:
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Originally Posted by Sophrosyne

This actually goes against your argument here. When someone is talking about Christians both Jews (lawkeeping still) and Gentiles and relating to one group keeping the Law and the other not and both considered righteous then you have this formula:
Jews..........saved + law = righteous
Gentiles.....saved + nothing = righteous
we can see by logic that the law is NOTHING to righteousness when someone can be considered such without. Pauls arguments are for the Jew here who is still struggling hanging on to the Law to accept Gentiles who do not bother with it.
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Originally Posted by Elder 111

So God has two means of salvation?
​

What is it then?

I only see one in my post... saved = righteous in both instances.

 

[Sophrosyne]

By the way, you are still suggesting two means of salvation here.
Try this. Salvation is the gift of God through faith. By faith and dependence upon God we all will keep His ten commandments not to be saved but because we love Him. With Jesus in you, you have no compulsion to steal etc.
Romans 7:
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

A simple way to say it is those who are in the spirit are NOT under the Law.

 

[Elder 111]

Yes Paul calls it a teacher, but if you look farther into the lack of success of the Law to rein in sin, and encourage people to follow God instead of choosing to do evil the Law was a failure overall. It did manage to help hold Israel together long enough for Jesus to be born through and minister to it but they corporately rejected yet another teacher. First they rejected God as their teacher, then the Law, then Jesus.

Notice you blame Israel for the rejection but still states that the law failed. Which is it?
It was not the law but the people. Heb 8:
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

 

[Elder 111]

Does anyone here critically THINK about the issue, or do they just spout what they've been taught in Sunday School?

I seriously believe they do not.

 

[Elder 111]

I don't consider the Law as a step to draw his creation into perfection but rather as an example to mankind about perfection itself. Jesus is about perfection and had to deliver mankind from the Law so they could attain perfection which only exists in God by his spirit indwelling us.

That is, removing the law that say "Thou should have no other god but Me" makes me perfect. How?
Are you also saying that Jesus did it for me so that I don't have to?
Hey bring the idol in!

 

[Elder 111]

What? That's, like, the most reasonable one. Of course they can be of both. Is the book of Romans both "of God" and "of Paul?" Of course it is.

Paul wrote the book but Moses did not write the 10. Read the account again.

 

[Elder 111]

A simple way to say it is those who are in the spirit are NOT under the Law.

So the other parts of the text should be ignored?

 

[Sophrosyne]

This sounds like what you are saying.
As long as I believe in Jesus I will be saved? If I try the keep the Ten Commandments I will fail but if I trust in Jesus I don't have to worry about it. If I take up a couple thousand dollars that is not mine or have an idol, Jesus has taken care of that already.

We aren't saved by keeping commandments because we cannot keep them on our own we will always fail. Our salvation is trusting in what Jesus did and one of his accomplishments for those who are stuck on the Law is he kept the Law so they wouldn't have to keep it.
One could focus on Jesus and try to keep the Law and fail and be saved but one focusing on keeping the Law instead of Jesus and fails to keep the Law would not be saved. If your faith is grounded on the Law and NOT Jesus you aren't saved.
The problem I see is with people who are fixated on the Law instead of the Savior.

 

[Redheadedstepchild]

Mod hat

Thread has been cleaned

 

[Sophrosyne]

Hold it!
You have a bleeding wound and place something on it to make it worse and call it a band aid? According to popular opinion, it's like a vampire not a band aid, the Law that is.
You seriously believe that the law was forced on people so as not to do evil? You are making me afraid. Am i taking to an alien?
So God forced the law on people? Please!

Here is the facts:
1)The 10 commandments were not voted upon by the people there
2)The punishments that came with the 10 commandments were not optional
3) People watched God destroy people and feared him and many accepted the commandments out of fear of what they would consider could happen if they refused.
4)People were executed by stoning for breaking them and lived in a society were they the fear of death stopped evil.... it wasn't necessarily choice.
If you were in their situation not knowing if God was going to zap you if you sinned would you do what he said out of love or fear?
I say when you do something because of fear, fear is the FORCE behind it and the author of the FEAR is the one forcing.

Now we live under Grace.... we do not fear death for breaking commandments we choose to not be evil instead of fearing not being good.

 

[Elder 111]

We aren't saved by keeping commandments because we cannot keep them on our own we will always fail.

We are not saved by keeping the commandments period. But by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we can live as God would have us.

Our salvation is trusting in what Jesus did and one of his accomplishments for those who are stuck on the Law is he kept the Law so they wouldn't have to keep it.

No where does the bible say that Jesus kept the law so that we would not have to keep it. He died for our sins. Note the implication hear, that is, that we can live as we like. We know that is not true.

One could focus on Jesus and try to keep the Law and fail and be saved but one focusing on keeping the Law instead of Jesus and fails to keep the Law would not be saved. If your faith is grounded on the Law and NOT Jesus you aren't saved.

Having no idol or not taking God' name in vain can not be an act of putting faith in the law for salvation.

The problem I see is with people who are fixated on the Law instead of the Savior.

Where does the bible say there must be the law or the Savior? Why can't we see the fixation on Jesus and obey His Ten Commandments also. Does faith in Jesus and His saving grace means that I must not look at the Commandment that says, thou should have no other god? Does that make sense?

 

[Elder 111]

Here is the facts:
1)The 10 commandments were not voted upon by the people there
2)The punishments that came with the 10 commandments were not optional
3) People watched God destroy people and feared him and many accepted the commandments out of fear of what they would consider could happen if they refused.
4)People were executed by stoning for breaking them and lived in a society were they the fear of death stopped evil.... it wasn't necessarily choice.
If you were in their situation not knowing if God was going to zap you if you sinned would you do what he said out of love or fear?
I say when you do something because of fear, fear is the FORCE behind it and the author of the FEAR is the one forcing.

Now we live under Grace.... we do not fear death for breaking commandments we choose to not be evil instead of fearing not being good.

This is not the truth. How many sinned and were not zapped? David and adultery. There are hundreds more but no need to mention. You believe that God is letting us off the hook now?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Paul wrote the book but Moses did not write the 10. Read the account again.

No, but he wrote them down later in the Torah.

 

[from scratch]

That is, removing the law that say "Thou should have no other god but Me" makes me perfect. How?
Are you also saying that Jesus did it for me so that I don't have to?
Hey bring the idol in!

What is your reasoning to continue this line and type of questioning? What idols are you suggesting we're worshipping?