• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

What exactly is the law?

bugkiller

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2015
17,773
2,629
✟95,400.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
You're missing the most important part, the "for righteousness" part. Christ Jesus earned perfect righteousness before God under [your desired article here] law. It is finished.

Now Christ is our righteousness. We have no righteousness apart from Christ. The law has valid three uses, none of which is to make us righteous before God.
I see no reason to need a cause. But since you make a point about the cause, will you kindly establish or show us a new cause for the law. In my think a new law has been established - the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus Rom 8. This new law frees me from the old law (the law). Yes both are the law of God. One is current and the other has been superceded, annulled, suspended, replaced and retired for the Christian.

While I do not see this new law providing righteousness the causing Agent does. The new law does not deal with righteousness. It does lead one in righteousness though.

Three valid uses for the law anre mentioned and not named. Please name those uses for us.

bugkiller
 
Upvote 0

bugkiller

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2015
17,773
2,629
✟95,400.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Temptation and lust arouse sin, not law. Thats how it worked with Adam and Eve.

James 1: 14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
It seems the Scripture is being thrown out here. Why? Is a discussion about human nature needed? How and why is a man tempted? Paul says the law leads to this temptation. Why is this not acepted? Is the law lust?

bugkiller
 
Upvote 0

bugkiller

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2015
17,773
2,629
✟95,400.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
That’s because the sinful nature was brought under conviction by the Law of God (or more rightly conviction due to our inability to keep the law perfectly). The conflict stood unresolved, until the sanctifying power of Jesus Christ freed us from the curse of the law. Thus establishing the law of righteousness in Christ.

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law (Romans 3:31).
I see the purpose of the law is acknoedged.

Please explain how one is freed from the effects of the law while bound to the law. What then is the purpose of the law? something to annoy us?

bugkiller
 
Upvote 0

bugkiller

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2015
17,773
2,629
✟95,400.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
The law is of our mother ... and unfolds as such until it crucified truth in the flesh, thereby slaying the image that was a lie, and this truth being lifted up draws everything back into one from where it first came out of.
Do not understand a word you wrote. How does it answer any question asked? How does it refute any statement I made? Does it agree with anything I said?:o:confused::o:confused::confused:

bugkiller
 
Upvote 0

bugkiller

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2015
17,773
2,629
✟95,400.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Uh, yeah, because it is factually within to arouse.

There is a statement from Jesus, reiterated many times, about matters of Law and of Lawlessness (which all people have regardless of their religious affiliations.)

The essence of this matter is right here. Though seldom factored into most understandings and discussions of Law:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Today in our 'modern(?) societies we consider such things as dark age, novel and matters for a mental health professional.

BUT the entire foundation of the Gospel and understanding scripture is founded on this exact information.

THIS MEANS ANOTHER ENTITY OR MORE IS FACTUALLY WITHIN THE HEARTS OF MANKIND.

Jesus showed the same 'principle' in play with Peter. Peter received truthful Heavenly Data in his heart and guess who else showed up shortly thereafter? Uh, yeah. Satan spewing from his mouth.

If any handler of scripture does NOT factor this fact into their discussions of law, lawlessness and what happens where The Word is sown they have inadequate information and understandings to have a coherent discussion about the matters.

Those who are not able or do not and can not take the information personally will never understand and have in effect already been eliminated from the ground of understandings. And from this phenomenon has sprung up every human evil and division that has existed on this planet and within Judeo/Christian evils in specific.

The factual information is largely unknown even though there in black and white to see.

Every believer initially rejects this data as being personally applicable.

It's a very predictable occurrence. In other words it happens all the time.

ALL accounts of LAW without this fact on the table are essentially worthless.

s
What data is being rejected?

bugkiller
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,860
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟65,348.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Sorry for a long post ...

(Matthew 5:17) "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Matthew 5:18) For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the scriptures known to the Jews.
(Matthew 7:12) So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Matthew 11:13) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John;
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Matthew 12:5) Or have you not read in the law how on the sabbath the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are guiltless?
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Matthew 22:36) "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Matthew 22:40) On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Matthew 23:23)

Seems to me the above covers most of the usage in the gospels so I will skip to the epistles.


(Luke 2:22) And when the time came for their purification according to the law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord

(Luke 2:23) (as it is written in the law of the Lord, "Every male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord")

(Luke 2:24) and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, "a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons."

(Luke 2:27) And inspired by the Spirit he came into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the law,

(Luke 2:39) And when they had performed everything according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city, Nazareth.

(Luke 4:38) And he arose and left the synagogue, and entered Simon's house. Now Simon's mother-in-law was ill with a high fever, and they besought him for her.

(Luke 5:17) On one of those days, as he was teaching, there were Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting by, who had come from every village of Galilee and Judea and from Jerusalem; and the power of the Lord was with him to heal.

(Luke 10:26) He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read?"

(Luke 16:16) "The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently.

(Luke 16:17) But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void.

(Luke 24:44) Then he said to them, "These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled."

(John 1:17) For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

(John 1:45) Philip found Nathan'a-el, and said to him, "We have found him of whom Moses in the law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

(John 7:19) Did not Moses give you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?"

(John 7:23) If on the sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the sabbath I made a man's whole body well?

(John 7:49) But this crowd, who do not know the law, are accursed."

(John 8:5) Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?"

(John 8:17) In your law it is written that the testimony of two men is true;

(John 12:34) The crowd answered him, "We have heard from the law that the Christ remains for ever. How can you say that the Son of man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of man?"

(John 15:25) It is to fulfil the word that is written in their law, 'They hated me without a cause.'

(John 18:13) First they led him to Annas; for he was the father-in-law of Ca'iaphas, who was high priest that year.

(John 18:31) Pilate said to them, "Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law." The Jews said to him, "It is not lawful for us to put any man to death."

(John 19:7) The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law he ought to die, because he has made himself the Son of God."

--- end of the gospels references ---

I'll skip Acts too ...


(Acts 5:34) But a Pharisee in the council named Gama'li-el, a teacher of the law, held in honor by all the people, stood up and ordered the men to be put outside for a while.

(Acts 6:13) and set up false witnesses who said, "This man never ceases to speak words against this holy place and the law;

(Acts 7:53) you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it."

(Acts 13:15) After the reading of the law and the prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, "Brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it."

(Acts 13:39) and by him every one that believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

(Acts 15:5) But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses."

(Acts 18:13) saying, "This man is persuading men to worship God contrary to the law."

(Acts 21:20) And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed; they are all zealous for the law,

(Acts 21:24) take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you but that you yourself live in observance of the law.

(Acts 21:28) crying out, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man who is teaching men everywhere against the people and the law and this place; moreover he also brought Greeks into the temple, and he has defiled this holy place."

(Acts 22:3) "I am a Jew, born at Tarsus in Cili'cia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gama'li-el, educated according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God as you all are this day.

(Acts 22:12) "And one Anani'as, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there,

(Acts 23:3) Then Paul said to him, "God shall strike you, you whitewashed wall! Are you sitting to judge me according to the law, and yet contrary to the law you order me to be struck?"

(Acts 24:14) But this I admit to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the law or written in the prophets,

(Acts 25:8) Paul said in his defense, "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended at all."

(Acts 28:23) When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in great numbers. And he expounded the matter to them from morning till evening, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the law of Moses and from the prophets.

--- and of Acts ---


(Romans 2:12) All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Romans 2:13) For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Romans 2:14) When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the natural law (some of which is reflected in the Torah).
(Romans 2:15) They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them

(Romans 2:17) But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the law and boast of your relation to God
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Romans 2:18) and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed in the law,

(Romans 2:20) a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth--
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the scriptures revealed to the Jews.
(Romans 2:23) You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?

(Romans 2:25) Circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Romans 2:26) So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

(Romans 2:27) Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law.

(Romans 3:19) Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Romans 3:20) For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

(Romans 3:21)
(Romans 3:31)
(Romans 4:13)
(Romans 4:14)
(Romans 4:15)
(Romans 4:16)
(Romans 5:13)
(Romans 5:20)
(Romans 7:1)
(Romans 7:2)
(Romans 7:4)
(Romans 7:5)
(Romans 7:6)
(Romans 7:7)
(Romans 7:8)
(Romans 7:9)
(Romans 7:12)
(Romans 7:14)
(Romans 7:16)
(Romans 7:22)
(Romans 7:23)
(Romans 7:25)
(Romans 8:2)
(Romans 8:3)
(Romans 8:4)
(Romans 8:7)
(Romans 9:4)
(Romans 9:31)
(Romans 10:4)
(Romans 10:5)
(Romans 13:8)
(Romans 13:10)

(1 Corinthians 6:1) When one of you has a grievance against a brother, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints?
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to pagan civil law.
(1 Corinthians 9:8) Do I say this on human authority? Does not the law say the same?
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(1 Corinthians 9:9) For it is written in the law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain." Is it for oxen that God is concerned?
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(1 Corinthians 9:20) To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law--though not being myself under the law--that I might win those under the law.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(1 Corinthians 9:21)
(1 Corinthians 14:21)
(1 Corinthians 14:34)
(1 Corinthians 15:56)

(Galatians 2:16) yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Galatians 2:19)
(Galatians 2:21)
(Galatians 3:2)
(Galatians 3:5)
(Galatians 3:10)
(Galatians 3:11)
(Galatians 3:12)
(Galatians 3:13)
(Galatians 3:17)
(Galatians 3:18) For if the inheritance is by the law, it is no longer by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the the law given on Mt Sinai in the books of Moses, as a contrast to the promise given to Abraham.
(Galatians 3:19) Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained by angels through an intermediary.

(Galatians 3:21) Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not; for if a law had been given which could make alive, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.

(Galatians 3:23)
(Galatians 3:24)
(Galatians 4:4)
(Galatians 4:5)
(Galatians 4:21)
(Galatians 5:3)
(Galatians 5:4)
(Galatians 5:14)
(Galatians 5:18)
(Galatians 6:2)
(Galatians 6:13)

(Ephesians 2:15) by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Philippians 3:5) circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law a Pharisee,
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Philippians 3:6) as to zeal a persecutor of the church, as to righteousness under the law blameless.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Philippians 3:9) and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith;
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to any system of rules/laws that were religious.
(1 Timothy 1:7)
(1 Timothy 1:8)
(1 Timothy 1:9)
(Titus 3:9)
(Hebrews 7:5)
(Hebrews 7:11)
(Hebrews 7:12)
(Hebrews 7:19)
(Hebrews 7:28)
(Hebrews 8:4)
(Hebrews 9:19)
(Hebrews 9:22)
(Hebrews 10:1)
(Hebrews 10:8)
(Hebrews 10:28)
(James 1:25)
(James 2:8)
(James 2:9)
(James 2:10)
(James 2:11)
(James 2:12)
(James 4:11)

There are a lot of references to 'the law'.
 
Upvote 0

bugkiller

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2015
17,773
2,629
✟95,400.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Sorry for a long post ...

(Matthew 5:17) "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Matthew 5:18) For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the scriptures known to the Jews.
(Matthew 7:12) So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Matthew 11:13) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John;
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Matthew 12:5) Or have you not read in the law how on the sabbath the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are guiltless?
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Matthew 22:36) "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Matthew 22:40) On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Matthew 23:23)

Seems to me the above covers most of the usage in the gospels so I will skip to the epistles.


(Luke 2:22) And when the time came for their purification according to the law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord

(Luke 2:23) (as it is written in the law of the Lord, "Every male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord")

(Luke 2:24) and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, "a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons."

(Luke 2:27) And inspired by the Spirit he came into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the law,

(Luke 2:39) And when they had performed everything according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city, Nazareth.

(Luke 4:38) And he arose and left the synagogue, and entered Simon's house. Now Simon's mother-in-law was ill with a high fever, and they besought him for her.

(Luke 5:17) On one of those days, as he was teaching, there were Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting by, who had come from every village of Galilee and Judea and from Jerusalem; and the power of the Lord was with him to heal.

(Luke 10:26) He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read?"

(Luke 16:16) "The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently.

(Luke 16:17) But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void.

(Luke 24:44) Then he said to them, "These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled."

(John 1:17) For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

(John 1:45) Philip found Nathan'a-el, and said to him, "We have found him of whom Moses in the law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

(John 7:19) Did not Moses give you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?"

(John 7:23) If on the sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the sabbath I made a man's whole body well?

(John 7:49) But this crowd, who do not know the law, are accursed."

(John 8:5) Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?"

(John 8:17) In your law it is written that the testimony of two men is true;

(John 12:34) The crowd answered him, "We have heard from the law that the Christ remains for ever. How can you say that the Son of man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of man?"

(John 15:25) It is to fulfil the word that is written in their law, 'They hated me without a cause.'

(John 18:13) First they led him to Annas; for he was the father-in-law of Ca'iaphas, who was high priest that year.

(John 18:31) Pilate said to them, "Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law." The Jews said to him, "It is not lawful for us to put any man to death."

(John 19:7) The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law he ought to die, because he has made himself the Son of God."

--- end of the gospels references ---

I'll skip Acts too ...


(Acts 5:34) But a Pharisee in the council named Gama'li-el, a teacher of the law, held in honor by all the people, stood up and ordered the men to be put outside for a while.

(Acts 6:13) and set up false witnesses who said, "This man never ceases to speak words against this holy place and the law;

(Acts 7:53) you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it."

(Acts 13:15) After the reading of the law and the prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, "Brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it."

(Acts 13:39) and by him every one that believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

(Acts 15:5) But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses."

(Acts 18:13) saying, "This man is persuading men to worship God contrary to the law."

(Acts 21:20) And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed; they are all zealous for the law,

(Acts 21:24) take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you but that you yourself live in observance of the law.

(Acts 21:28) crying out, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man who is teaching men everywhere against the people and the law and this place; moreover he also brought Greeks into the temple, and he has defiled this holy place."

(Acts 22:3) "I am a Jew, born at Tarsus in Cili'cia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gama'li-el, educated according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God as you all are this day.

(Acts 22:12) "And one Anani'as, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there,

(Acts 23:3) Then Paul said to him, "God shall strike you, you whitewashed wall! Are you sitting to judge me according to the law, and yet contrary to the law you order me to be struck?"

(Acts 24:14) But this I admit to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the law or written in the prophets,

(Acts 25:8) Paul said in his defense, "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended at all."

(Acts 28:23) When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in great numbers. And he expounded the matter to them from morning till evening, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the law of Moses and from the prophets.

--- and of Acts ---


(Romans 2:12) All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Romans 2:13) For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Romans 2:14) When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the natural law (some of which is reflected in the Torah).
(Romans 2:15) They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them

(Romans 2:17) But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the law and boast of your relation to God
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Romans 2:18) and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed in the law,

(Romans 2:20) a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth--
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the scriptures revealed to the Jews.
(Romans 2:23) You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?

(Romans 2:25) Circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Romans 2:26) So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

(Romans 2:27) Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law.

(Romans 3:19) Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Romans 3:20) For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

(Romans 3:21)
(Romans 3:31)
(Romans 4:13)
(Romans 4:14)
(Romans 4:15)
(Romans 4:16)
(Romans 5:13)
(Romans 5:20)
(Romans 7:1)
(Romans 7:2)
(Romans 7:4)
(Romans 7:5)
(Romans 7:6)
(Romans 7:7)
(Romans 7:8)
(Romans 7:9)
(Romans 7:12)
(Romans 7:14)
(Romans 7:16)
(Romans 7:22)
(Romans 7:23)
(Romans 7:25)
(Romans 8:2)
(Romans 8:3)
(Romans 8:4)
(Romans 8:7)
(Romans 9:4)
(Romans 9:31)
(Romans 10:4)
(Romans 10:5)
(Romans 13:8)
(Romans 13:10)

(1 Corinthians 6:1) When one of you has a grievance against a brother, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints?
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to pagan civil law.
(1 Corinthians 9:8) Do I say this on human authority? Does not the law say the same?
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(1 Corinthians 9:9) For it is written in the law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain." Is it for oxen that God is concerned?
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(1 Corinthians 9:20) To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law--though not being myself under the law--that I might win those under the law.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(1 Corinthians 9:21)
(1 Corinthians 14:21)
(1 Corinthians 14:34)
(1 Corinthians 15:56)

(Galatians 2:16) yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Galatians 2:19)
(Galatians 2:21)
(Galatians 3:2)
(Galatians 3:5)
(Galatians 3:10)
(Galatians 3:11)
(Galatians 3:12)
(Galatians 3:13)
(Galatians 3:17)
(Galatians 3:18) For if the inheritance is by the law, it is no longer by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the the law given on Mt Sinai in the books of Moses, as a contrast to the promise given to Abraham.
(Galatians 3:19) Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained by angels through an intermediary.

(Galatians 3:21) Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not; for if a law had been given which could make alive, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.

(Galatians 3:23)
(Galatians 3:24)
(Galatians 4:4)
(Galatians 4:5)
(Galatians 4:21)
(Galatians 5:3)
(Galatians 5:4)
(Galatians 5:14)
(Galatians 5:18)
(Galatians 6:2)
(Galatians 6:13)

(Ephesians 2:15) by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Philippians 3:5) circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law a Pharisee,
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Philippians 3:6) as to zeal a persecutor of the church, as to righteousness under the law blameless.
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to the Torah, the books of Moses.
(Philippians 3:9) and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith;
in the above 'the law' looks like a reference to any system of rules/laws that were religious.
(1 Timothy 1:7)
(1 Timothy 1:8)
(1 Timothy 1:9)
(Titus 3:9)
(Hebrews 7:5)
(Hebrews 7:11)
(Hebrews 7:12)
(Hebrews 7:19)
(Hebrews 7:28)
(Hebrews 8:4)
(Hebrews 9:19)
(Hebrews 9:22)
(Hebrews 10:1)
(Hebrews 10:8)
(Hebrews 10:28)
(James 1:25)
(James 2:8)
(James 2:9)
(James 2:10)
(James 2:11)
(James 2:12)
(James 4:11)

There are a lot of references to 'the law'.
Yeppers there are.

bugkiller
 
Upvote 0

bugkiller

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2015
17,773
2,629
✟95,400.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Well why spoil the fun when it's in black and white to see?

The fact that it is there and not seen or perceived only confirms the fact of it.

s
Something one can not see or perceive is not a fact. Facts are perceived, but maybe not understood. Understanding has nothing to do with acceptance and obedience.

bugkiller
 
Upvote 0

squint

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2007
16,182
903
Mountain Regions
✟20,405.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Something one can not see or perceive is not a fact. Facts are perceived, but maybe not understood. Understanding has nothing to do with acceptance and obedience.

bugkiller

You'll have to excuse my having fun with you.

:p
 
Upvote 0

Tangible

Decision Theology = Ex Opere Operato
May 29, 2009
9,837
1,416
cruce tectum
Visit site
✟67,243.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
I see no reason to need a cause. But since you make a point about the cause, will you kindly establish or show us a new cause for the law. In my think a new law has been established - the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus Rom 8. This new law frees me from the old law (the law). Yes both are the law of God. One is current and the other has been superceded, annulled, suspended, replaced and retired for the Christian.
The Law is how Christ earned righteousness for us. The righteousness of Christ rests upon the law, therefore the law has not been annulled or destroyed but fulfilled by Christ for those whom God has gifted with saving faith. The Law still stands to condemn those who are without faith in Christ.

While I do not see this new law providing righteousness the causing Agent does. The new law does not deal with righteousness. It does lead one in righteousness though.
The law of faith, or the law of Christ, is a rhetorical device employed by St. Paul in order to contrast the two kinds of righteousness - the righteousness we cannot earn under the Law versus the alien righteousness of Christ granted us freely by grace through faith. If you want to call the Gospel the law of Christ, so be it, but it is not a law for us to observe and obey but a law outlining the New Covenant God has made with us in Christ. We can no more earn righteousness through obedience to a new law than we can through the old law.

Three valid uses for the law anre mentioned and not named. Please name those uses for us.

bugkiller
The first use of the law is to curb and restrain man's sinfulness. If God had not taught us the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, and established worldly authorities to uphold the right and punish the wrong, life itself would soon falter and we humans, carried away by our sinful nature, would perish altogether.

The second use of the law is to stand as a perfectly reflective mirror to make us see and acknowledge the depth of our sinfulness and our absolutely imperfect state. This Word of God judges, convicts, condemns and puts to death our old man, our fleshly sinful nature, Sin itself in us.

The third use of the law teaches us and leads us to love God and love and serve our neighbor. The new man in Christ desires to live freely in accordance with God's perfect law even though we will constantly fail. The Law shows us what to do and what not to do in order to live in thankful, reverent obedience and how to live in repentance for the times that we do fail and sin against God and our neighbor.
 
Upvote 0

Frogster

Galatians is the best!
Sep 7, 2009
44,343
3,067
✟81,817.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Republican
The Law is how Christ earned righteousness for us. The righteousness of Christ rests upon the law, therefore the law has not been annulled or destroyed but fulfilled by Christ for those whom God has gifted with saving faith. The Law still stands to condemn those who are without faith in Christ.

The law of faith, or the law of Christ, is a rhetorical device employed by St. Paul in order to contrast the two kinds of righteousness - the righteousness we cannot earn under the Law versus the alien righteousness of Christ granted us freely by grace through faith. If you want to call the Gospel the law of Christ, so be it, but it is not a law for us to observe and obey but a law outlining the New Covenant God has made with us in Christ. We can no more earn righteousness through obedience to a new law than we can through the old law.

The first use of the law is to curb and restrain man's sinfulness. If God had not taught us the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, and established worldly authorities to uphold the right and punish the wrong, life itself would soon falter and we humans, carried away by our sinful nature, would perish altogether.

The second use of the law is to stand as a perfectly reflective mirror to make us see and acknowledge the depth of our sinfulness and our absolutely imperfect state. This Word of God judges, convicts, condemns and puts to death our old man, our fleshly sinful nature, Sin itself in us.

The third use of the law teaches us and leads us to love God and love and serve our neighbor. The new man in Christ desires to live freely in accordance with God's perfect law even though we will constantly fail. The Law shows us what to do and what not to do in order to live in thankful, reverent obedience and how to live in repentance for the times that we do fail and sin against God and our neighbor.

well..eph 2;15 says law abolished, and paul also stressed being imputed RIGHTEOUS in rom 4, like how abe was, and it was written for our sakes, and it was pre law imputation.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,971
3,996
✟394,630.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
well..eph 2;15 says law abolished, and paul also stressed being imputed RIGHTEOUS in rom 4, like how abe was, and it was written for our sakes, and it was pre law imputation.
Abe's faith was credited to him as righteousness, because it led to obedience- of God's command! That's what James is referring to:

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. James 2:20-24

Abe's righteousness was actual, not merely imputed.
 
Upvote 0

Frogster

Galatians is the best!
Sep 7, 2009
44,343
3,067
✟81,817.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Republican
Abe's faith was credited to him as righteousness, because it led to obedience- of God's command! That's what James is referring to:

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. James 2:20-24

Abe's righteousness was actual, not merely imputed.

does the gen 22 account say it was credited, like 15;6 does? Moses said 15;6, but not in 22. Besides, you would have to chuck out rom 4, to believe your way, and that means the abrahamic gospel that were are in, gal 3;8 is by works, totally going against everything.
 
Upvote 0

Tangible

Decision Theology = Ex Opere Operato
May 29, 2009
9,837
1,416
cruce tectum
Visit site
✟67,243.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
well..eph 2;15 says law abolished, and paul also stressed being imputed RIGHTEOUS in rom 4, like how abe was, and it was written for our sakes, and it was pre law imputation.
Abolished for righteousness. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. Are you saying that the law no longer condemns sin?
Abe's faith was credited to him as righteousness, because it led to obedience- of God's command! That's what James is referring to:

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. James 2:20-24

Abe's righteousness was actual, not merely imputed.
'Credited to him' means that even though he was not truly righteous, he was considered righteous because God had granted him faith to believe His promises, and he believed.

Abe's righeousness was not actual, it was imputed.
 
Upvote 0
N

Nanopants

Guest
Abe's faith was credited to him as righteousness, because it led to obedience- of God's command! That's what James is referring to:

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. James 2:20-24

Abe's righteousness was actual, not merely imputed.

Granted, but was he made to be perfect as God is perfect by his works? If not then whatever righteousness he possessed at that point was still as filthy rags before the righteousness of God. It must be that he was credited with the full measure of God's righteousness, before he had received it.

After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward." -Gen 15:1
 
Upvote 0

Frogster

Galatians is the best!
Sep 7, 2009
44,343
3,067
✟81,817.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Republican
Abolished for righteousness. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. Are you saying that the law no longer condemns sin?
'Credited to him' means that even though he was not truly righteous, he was considered righteous because God had granted him faith to believe His promises, and he believed.

Abe's righeousness was not actual, it was imputed.

the point was, this was all pre law, the faith was pre law. Abe was imputed pre law, there was righteousness pre law.

it says abolished in his flesh..christians went to the cross with christ, we know the law will stand for the unsaved, rom 1-3, fine, paul said the law is not for the church, 1 tim 1, but for the unsaved, same critters listed in 1 tim 1, as rom 1, fine, but it says abolished in his flesh, for us.

we are not under law condemnation, law sin arousal, or law righteousness.
 
Upvote 0

Frogster

Galatians is the best!
Sep 7, 2009
44,343
3,067
✟81,817.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Republican
Granted, but was he made to be perfect as God is perfect by his works? If not then whatever righteousness he possessed at that point was still as filthy rags before the righteousness of God. It must be that he was credited with the full measure of God's righteousness, before he had received it.

After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward." -Gen 15:1

exaclty, it says justifies the ungodly in rom 4, not the godly.
 
Upvote 0