What exactly is a liberal Christian?

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Better still - straight from the horse's mouth.

http://www.lgcm.org.uk/bible/bible.htm

 

[BarbB]

There's no woman in the Good Samaritan. The point of that story is that the people you hate the most, well, if one of them is a good person, then he is more your neighbor than members of the groups you "accept".

That's diversity. If you want to understand that story fully, imagine that it was told in Georgia shortly after the Civil war, and that it was called "the parable of the good Negro". That'll get you close to how much the audience hated and despised the Samaritans, but it still falls a bit short.

God wants diversity. We know this because He created diversity. He didn't stop after the first person; we're like potato chips that way.



Yes, and He also forbids the Jews from wearing mixed fabrics, or eating shellfish. We came past the holiness code. It is no longer part of our faith.

In the Old Testament, contact with unclean things made you unclean. In the New Testament, contact with unclean things purifies them.

Seebs - I guess that I now have NO CLUE as to what you objected to in my earlier post.

Edited to add: Nor do I have ANY CLUE as to what you are talking about above!

Your last comment is beyond belief. So we must be in contact with unclean things to purify them? Usually it works the other way, contact with unclean things contaminates us! This does not stop our witness, but we take care that we are not seduced into the sin also!

 

[BarbB]

Buck72 - I think that the main difference between liberal Christians and conservative Christians is that the liberal Christian practices a "feel good" Christianity that we cannot understand. Neither do they understand our attempt to practice a Godly Christianity. We'll probably have to agree to disagree. I have a ton of trouble understanding why the Holy Spirit keeps me on a curb chain while the liberal Christian has a huge lead to work with. I guess He just knows me too well!

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Buck72 - I think that the main difference between liberal Christians and conservative Christians is that the liberal Christian practices a "feel good" Christianity that we cannot understand.

No. What would "feel good" would be to sit on my **** making as much money as possible and not giving a flying one about anyone else. That I will not do.

Neither do they understand our attempt to practice a Godly Christianity.

No, we try to as well. We just have a different understanding of what some aspects of "godliness" are.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree.

Ironically, that's something I agree on.

I have a ton of trouble understanding why the Holy Spirit keeps me on a curb chain while the liberal Christian has a huge lead to work with. I guess He just knows me too well!

Perhaps our leads are shorter than you think.

I'd personally suggest that the difference is that the conservative wants more fences in the garden, and the liberal wants fewer fences but a bit more respect for what is beautiful, if that makes any sense. The conservative asks "Is X a sin?" and looks for direct bible references to it. If none are found, he asks whether it is tantamount to another sin that is mentioned - take a look at debates on masturbation on CF for examples of this sort of process.

The liberal wants to get to the heart of it and applies broad principles rather than proof texts. He asks "what effect does it have? What is the general biblical thrust? This is written, but who was it written to and why?"

There are three legs on which Christianity stands - tradition, scripture and reason. Catholics and Orthodox emphasise the first, conservative protestants the second, and liberals the last. To be honest, I'm not a true liberal in outlook - I'm a post-evangelical. Nice brief essay here - http://www.brow.on.ca/Articles/Evangelical.html

 

[tulc]

Interesting site Karl I'm going to look it over tonight!
tulc

 

[Christi]

Buck72 - I think that the main difference between liberal Christians and conservative Christians is that the liberal Christian practices a "feel good" Christianity that we cannot understand. Neither do they understand our attempt to practice a Godly Christianity. We'll probably have to agree to disagree. I have a ton of trouble understanding why the Holy Spirit keeps me on a curb chain while the liberal Christian has a huge lead to work with. I guess He just knows me too well!

Hey, nl!

I don't really understand the liberal/conservative thing in politics or Christianity. I think we are all a mixture of both to some degree. I think I must have misunderstood you when you said about liberal Christians...."neither do they understand our attempt to practice a Godly Christianity." I really hope all Christians attempt to practice a Godly Christianity, and most think they are doing their best. I try not to put my relationship with God in a box and label it, but I don't really think you'll find anyone who says they believe in a "feel good" Christianity. In fact, it has been my experience that the very fact that Christianity isn't easy, and doesn't always feel good, is what makes the Christians who consider themselves liberal more compassionate. I've noticed that some of the more liberal Christians have come from the hardest places and have had to endure more to get to God. And I have to believe He takes the road we travel on our way to Him into account.

 

[Taffsadar]

Buck72 - I think that the main difference between liberal Christians and conservative Christians is that the liberal Christian practices a "feel good" Christianity that we cannot understand. Neither do they understand our attempt to practice a Godly Christianity. We'll probably have to agree to disagree. I have a ton of trouble understanding why the Holy Spirit keeps me on a curb chain while the liberal Christian has a huge lead to work with. I guess He just knows me too well!

The odd thing is that the liberal christians seems to be the ones that actually are concerned. I have seen many fundies which basicly are everything the pharisées once were (ie really anal about rules and not very kind and loving people) while many liberal christians worries about thanking the lord enough and taking care of other people. Perhaps you should ask yourself who you think is the one who follow Jesus love message the best? The fundie who's most intrested in sabotaging the life of homosexuals or the liberal one who tries to be a nice person and thus actually might make som converts (ie I'm for example much more intrested in Christies loving ways and honest belief in the love of god than I am intresting in the anal retentive bigotry of certain people...).

 

[Buck72]

Better still - straight from the horse's mouth.

http://www.lgcm.org.uk/bible/bible.htm

May I suggest that the article came from the other end of the horse.

"Rev" Dawson is a liar.

His linguistic gymnastics aren't even worthy of an independent study they are so laden with political aim and subterfuge.

How anyone...A-N-Y-O-N-E in the faith can turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to an overwhelming barrage of scripture making it clear that God does not accept homosexuality, and then with the same deaf ears and blind eyes contest that HE DOES ACCEPT IT. Is either stupid or a liar.

No offense intended, it is just calling it like it is.

Let's go further:

1. Does God mind if I cheat on my wife?
2. Does God care if I smoke a little pot, or crack?
3. Would God take note if I shot the neighbors' kid that rides his moped up and down the street all day long?
4. Could God take exception with me if I lied on my taxes?

The answer to these rhetorical questions is an obvious NO.

Homosexuality is the same. It is sin. It is defined as sin by the word of God and included with all sins in that it is an offense to a HOLY GOD.

This isn't a campaign for pure religiousity either, it is simply a statement of what is/isn't sin:

Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good.

OPEN NOTE TO REV DAWSON: http://www.lgcm.org.uk/bible/bible.htm

Sir, I am apalled that a minister of the word of God, charged by the Holy Spirit to effect the faith of the believers of His Church can be so blind to the truth of God and having exchanged it for a lie in order to (by your own hand) bring about a manner of political inclusiveness for gay people as is fitting in 21st century "correct" society.

I also take exception that you claim the church is becoming "more intolerant" of gays in these modern times. I contest that the gay issues had been under darkness until recently (where they belong) when now we have gay shoved in our faces by the liberal media and political establishment 24/7 from infancy!! If there is a "growing resistance" - IT IS YOUR FAULT, not the fault of those that hold true to the faithful word of promise.

Heb 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

Heb 5:13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

***NOTE OF CAUTION***

Anytime the Bible makes a claim that someone will not inherit the Kingdom of God, please do yourself a huge favor and your fellow man a huge favor, and take it at face value. You risk your eternal soul to argue semantics. Since the Bible speaks great ill of homosexuality (murder, lying, stealing, blasphemy, adultry, etc), you'd do well to consider that it just might mean what it says.


Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[BarbB]

No. What would "feel good" would be to sit on my **** making as much money as possible and not giving a flying one about anyone else. That I will not do.


I'd personally suggest that the difference is that the conservative wants more fences in the garden, and the liberal wants fewer fences but a bit more respect for what is beautiful, if that makes any sense. The conservative asks "Is X a sin?" and looks for direct bible references to it. If none are found, he asks whether it is tantamount to another sin that is mentioned - take a look at debates on masturbation on CF for examples of this sort of process.

The liberal wants to get to the heart of it and applies broad principles rather than proof texts. He asks "what effect does it have? What is the general biblical thrust? This is written, but who was it written to and why?"

Hmmmm - what feels good to me is praising and worshipping God and sharing his Word and witnessing what He has made of my life! I don't need a lot of money. I need Jesus!

This fundie looks to the Holy Spirit to inform her of what is sin, what is sortof sin, what to stay away from, etc. Before being born-again I was promiscuous, drunk, cursing idolator! Needless to say, that was the old me and now I am a new creation! The thought of what I used to consider fun makes me want to hurl now! I'm reading through the Bible for the first time and I am amazed at what it says! The sins of yesterday are still being done today. Nothing has changed.

 

[Christi]

Hmmmm - what feels good to me is praising and worshipping God and sharing his Word and witnessing what He has made of my life! I don't need a lot of money. I need Jesus!

This fundie looks to the Holy Spirit to inform her of what is sin, what is sortof sin, what to stay away from, etc. Before being born-again I was promiscuous, drunk, cursing idolator! Needless to say, that was the old me and now I am a new creation! The thought of what I used to consider fun makes me want to hurl now! I'm reading through the Bible for the first time and I am amazed at what it says! The sins of yesterday are still being done today. Nothing has changed.

Oh Newlamb, don't cry! I love you! You are so kind and sweet and a really good example of a Christian. And I know many people whose opinion you don't agree with, who want you as a mom! So there! You are good at loving! You are not a fundie, just conservative.

 

[BarbB]

The odd thing is that the liberal christians seems to be the ones that actually are concerned. I have seen many fundies which basicly are everything the pharisées once were (ie really anal about rules and not very kind and loving people) while many liberal christians worries about thanking the lord enough and taking care of other people. Perhaps you should ask yourself who you think is the one who follow Jesus love message the best? The fundie who's most intrested in sabotaging the life of homosexuals or the liberal one who tries to be a nice person and thus actually might make som converts (ie I'm for example much more intrested in Christies loving ways and honest belief in the love of god than I am intresting in the anal retentive bigotry of certain people...).

I do not believe that a Liberal Christian who leads another to Jesus and teaches that love is all you need is doing the whole job. The Bible says that one who does that will have to answer for all the bad teaching he/she does. Instead, I choose to witness to the change in my life and my relationship with Jesus. If they choose to explore it further, I am available.

Why do you think that I'm not a nice person? I am more than charitable with my money, time, resources. I love having fun, especially with other Christians! I do not wish to sabotage the life of any homosexual. Neither do I feel that an active homosexual is in any position to morally or spiritually lead a church. The Episcopal church I was saved in about 30 miles from Robinson's church is appalled at his behavior and the actions of the Episcopal Church of America. Not everyone thinks that making him a Bishop was a good idea.

I have a question. Have you had a spiritual experience which leads you to believe that you have been born-again? I am starting to think that therein lies the difference between liberal and fundie Christians. Liberal Christians may have intellectually accepted Christ, while fundie Christians have emotionally accepted Him.

What did you used to do before becoming a Christian that you do not do now?

 

[Taffsadar]

Newlamb then theres no need to feel hit by my barrage against the fundies, theres a difference between conservatives and fundies (ie I only want to get rid of group 2 since they interfer with other peoples beliefs).

The most important part of christianity has to be a relationship with god and a submission to his will (aka follow his rules) and I think all good christians agree to this in theory. However then we reach the issue, some christians seems to decide that it's their job to impose their beliefs on everyone else and enforce every single rule at the expense on Jesus love teachings. Those are the people that are a threat to both christianity and everyone who doesn't share their beliefs. A conservative and a liberal christian can live side by side since they are both secure enough in their beliefs to accept that they got different interprations of the bible (but can still argue about it ). A fundie however is stuck with his rigid thought structure and literal interpration and is therefor often both unpleasant to deal with and a bad example of a christian (but still a christian).

 

[Christi]

I don't think Christians should characterize themselves as anything but followers of Christ. I happen to be liberal on some things and conservative on others. If anyone were to pick one issue out and characterize my whole relationship with Christ by that, they would come to many conclusions that weren't true about me. I just think that there is no substitute for getting to know each other within the body of Christ and love each other. We, as Christians, all have a stake in each other. And from externally......well, we were all unbelievers until we became believers. These people are watching us as closely as God is, I believe. And sometimes it seems like they are just waiting on mistakes, but maybe they are waiting for proof? I know the Bible very well, but there are different things, that speak to different people, in different ways, at different times. I'm thinking it's the "living and active" Holy Spirit thing going on there.

 

[seebs]

I have a question. Have you had a spiritual experience which leads you to believe that you have been born-again? I am starting to think that therein lies the difference between liberal and fundie Christians. Liberal Christians may have intellectually accepted Christ, while fundie Christians have emotionally accepted Him.

What did you used to do before becoming a Christian that you do not do now?

While I am sure you don't mean it this way, this is one of the most offensive things I've seen in this forum in quite some time.

I am indeed born again. However, I was saved by Jesus, not by the Bible, not by some church, not by any of those. I was transformed, not because I held to a two-thousand year accumulation of doctrines and beliefs, but because I hungered and thirsted after righteousness. Once this had started happening, I was led to discover the name of the One who had transformed me, but the transformation came first; before I was transformed, Jesus didn't seem any different from any other moral teacher.

Thus, I reject all the trappings and superstitions often mistaken for salvation. I was not saved by a book of words; I was saved by the Living Word. I will not trade that for thousands of years of human interpretations.

As a side note, one of the people whose witness lead me to give Christianity a chance is a gay man. Were he willing to lead a church, I think he would do a wonderful job of it. His witness for Christ is amazing.

 

[Christi]

Warning....rambling ahead:

I have to say something here, not only because it's important to me, but because it may be to someone else. Sometimes us Christians see someone who we feel is being disobedient to the God we love. We feel they are taking advantage of His mercy, laughing in the face of the One who means everything to us. We get angry, we stay that way. But when He looks at those people.......He remembers authorizing their existence. He remembers creating them in their mother's womb, listening for their first cry, watching their first step, pushing their first tooth through. He remembers courting them. With sunsets, soft mushy springtime grass, and the smell of rain. He can be shameless in His pursuit of us....using loving friends, funny jokes, and sexual pleasure with our husbands. He haunts us and stalks us and flirts with us.....until we KNOW that no matter what we do, it doesn't take away that longing. We can't drink enough marguaritas or have enough [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] or stockpile enough knowledge or gather enough friends, to ever take away that longing we have. It's a longing for Him.
When people look at the Bible as a rule book, or instruction manual, they are missing the best part. THEY are the one's editing. There are rules, yes. But they are all about love for us. There is a thread woven throughout all the law, history, poetry, and prophesy......and the thread is love. Love culminating in Him coming incognito to rescue us, (after we were so dang stubborn time after time after time)......and He's coming back dressed to go. He's coming back to claim His beloved. His beloved is us. And His beloved is them.

 

[Neenie]

Warning....rambling ahead:

I have to say something here, not only because it's important to me, but because it may be to someone else. Sometimes us Christians see someone who we feel is being disobedient to the God we love. We feel they are taking advantage of His mercy, laughing in the face of the One who means everything to us. We get angry, we stay that way. But when He looks at those people.......He remembers authorizing their existence. He remembers creating them in their mother's womb, listening for their first cry, watching their first step, pushing their first tooth through. He remembers courting them. With sunsets, soft mushy springtime grass, and the smell of rain. He can be shameless in His pursuit of us....using loving friends, funny jokes, and sexual pleasure with our husbands. He haunts us and stalks us and flirts with us.....until we KNOW that no matter what we do, it doesn't take away that longing. We can't drink enough marguaritas or have enough [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] or stockpile enough knowledge or gather enough friends, to ever take away that longing we have. It's a longing for Him.
When people look at the Bible as a rule book, or instruction manual, they are missing the best part. THEY are the one's editing. There are rules, yes. But they are all about love for us. There is a thread woven throughout all the law, history, poetry, and prophesy......and the thread is love. Love culminating in Him coming incognito to rescue us, (after we were so dang stubborn time after time after time)......and He's coming back dressed to go. He's coming back to claim His beloved. His beloved is us. And His beloved is them.

Amen to that Christi

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

May I suggest that the article came from the other end of the horse.

"Rev" Dawson is a liar.

His linguistic gymnastics aren't even worthy of an independent study they are so laden with political aim and subterfuge.

And then you go on to say "no offence intended"? How could anyone not take offence at being called a liar and talking out of a horse's @rse?

How anyone...A-N-Y-O-N-E in the faith can turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to an overwhelming barrage of scripture making it clear that God does not accept homosexuality,

Overwhelming barrage? Six verses in the entire book, two of which are set amongst a load of ceremonial and ritual laws, and the others of questionable translation? My standard for "overwhelming barrage" is a bit higher than that.

and then with the same deaf ears and blind eyes contest that HE DOES ACCEPT IT. Is either stupid or a liar.

I agree with Rev Dawson. Which am I? Stupid or a liar? Come on, out with it. Seeing as you're so willing to throw stones which one are you going to throw at me?

No offense intended, it is just calling it like it is.

No. Like you see it. Don't confuse "I think" with "It is".

Let's go further:

1. Does God mind if I cheat on my wife?
2. Does God care if I smoke a little pot, or crack?
3. Would God take note if I shot the neighbors' kid that rides his moped up and down the street all day long?
4. Could God take exception with me if I lied on my taxes?

The answer to these rhetorical questions is an obvious NO.

Now that is out of a horse's back passage.

Homosexuality is the same. It is sin. It is defined as sin by the word of God and included with all sins in that it is an offense to a HOLY GOD.

That is under debate. That is unfortunately what you refuse to recognise. You think it's a sin from your reading of Scripture, therefore everyone has to agree with you or they're a liar or stupid. And you wonder why we complain that conservatives are bigoted?

This isn't a campaign for pure religiousity either, it is simply a statement of what is/isn't sin:

Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good.

Nonsense. It's a statement of what you think is or isn't sin. Unfortunately, you cannot help but insist everyone else must have the same opinions as you.

 

[Buck72]

There is a PERCEPTION of a dichotomy here.

Liberal = only love
Conservative = only judgement

This is only a perception, and I would like to see it cleared for everyone.

I'm deadly serious about the word of God meaning what it says, and dead set against any that would spin it to fit their perception (ie: gay bishop) when it makes no uncertain stance to the contrary.

I'm also in love with Christ, and the people of Christ are the "majestic ones in whom is all my delight" (Psalm 16:3). It is by love that I am motivated to take a stand for the truth, even unto death, because that which Christ has made known to me is worth, WORTH dying for...much less to endure lesser hardship to preserve and protect.

It is not by hate, or "unlove" (God forbid!) that I passionately pursue the knowledge of the truth and the obediance of faith among Christ's chosen people. If I hated them, I would leave them to their devices and indulge myself with the satisfaction that "I KNOW" and they don't!

That is hate, which is why Paul asked the question:

Gal 4:16 So have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?

Why, my liberal friends...WHY were (and are) so many Christians ransaked, beaten, imprisoned, murdered, tortured, and mutilated for their faith?

WHY?

Is it because they say only nice things to people, and blend in so easily with the world?

No.

It is because they say difficult things to people and they do not fit in with the world. A message of judgement for sin has one of two consequences:

1. Repentance (Acts 4:4)
2. Rebellion (Rev 16:9)

There is no other choice available.

When I see liberal Christians embracing a doctrine of worldliness, indulgence, and softened judgement (if any), I question it and challenge it with scripture. Much to my suprise the responses are less that appreciative, which makes me wonder this:

If adding "God" to your ideology insomuch as you seek after the things you would have sought after anyway, without God...where then is your faith?

If the knowledge, the intimate knowledge of Christ does not change you enough to seek after HIM - NOT HIS GIFTS, but Him alone, for Who He is, rather than the things of this world, the passing pleasures, and futile subjection that the creation has been ordained to suffer because of sin until the day of Christ...if this world be the vehicle for your self-advancement...pardon me while I question your faith.

The Bible tells us clearly not to be stained by the world, not to love it, follow it, be like it, or seek after it.

WHY?

Because this world is NOT OURS. Our world is what we hope for, a new place, NOT this one! Therefore we find ourselves among them so beautifully described in Hebrews 11. We are walking according to faith, that we CLING to the word of hope...the word of God by which, through self-examination we know that we are His because the Spirit confirmes in us that we are His.

That's where I'm coming from.

Heb 11:13-15 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.

Heb 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

Heb 11:26 ...choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.


Heb 11:32-36 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection; and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment.

Heb 11:37-40 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

 

[Buck72]

Overwhelming barrage? Six verses in the entire book, two of which are set amongst a load of ceremonial and ritual laws, and the others of questionable translation? My standard for "overwhelming barrage" is a bit higher than that.

ONLY six verses!? Karl, how many verses in the Bible tell you not to lie? Is lying sin? How do you know?

How many verses are required to convict of sin?

TELL GOD HOW MANY TIMES HE NEEDS TO TELL YOU SOMETHING FOR YOU TO BELIEVE IT.

You neither believe SIX DAYS, nor do you believe that homosexuality is a SIN. What else about the Bible do you not believe?

Hey, if you're offended - CHECK YOUR HEART BRO!

Here's some more "overwhelming" information that you can willfully ignore:

Fornication is mentioned with NEGATIVE tone in 35 verses in the Bible.
Fornicator is mention in 5 verses.
Lust - 65 verses
Immorality - 21 verses
Sensual - 13 verses

That's a 5-minute word search Karl that showed me 139 verses that shut down your "gay is okay" mantra.

I reccommend you ask yourself if gay is okay with God, and if so, why He bothers to mention His hatred of it BY ITS VERY NAME - even to go so far as to say that those who practice it WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

I patiently await your reply.

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

1Ti 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers

1Ti 1:10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

1Ti 1:11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

ONLY six verses!? Karl, how many verses in the Bible tell you not to lie? Is lying sin? How do you know?

How many verses are required to convict of sin?

It's not a matter of how many verses - that just addresses your "barrage". The point is that none of those verses in my opinion actually addresses same-sex relationships as they exist today. The possible exception is the Leviticus ones, but again, IMO, they are concerned with pagan practices and particular elements of Hebrew culture that we do not share.

TELL GOD HOW MANY TIMES HE NEEDS TO TELL YOU SOMETHING FOR YOU TO BELIEVE IT.

Once. But it needs to be clear what God is saying, to whom, when and why. The same book that says a man shall not lie with a man also says one shall not eat shellfish. Do you obey that command?

You neither believe SIX DAYS, nor do you believe that homosexuality is a SIN. What else about the Bible do you not believe?

I don't believe it was directly written by God. But you know that.

Hey, if you're offended - CHECK YOUR HEART BRO!

Again, we have this insistence that if we only honestly faced the truth, we'd realise how wrong we are and agree with the conservatives. Have you any idea how arrogant that assumption makes you sound? For your information, I used to be a conservative evangelical with views much like yours; Heck, I was even a young earth creationist for a week. It was honest examination of my heart and determination to know the truth that brought me where I am now.

Here's some more "overwhelming" information that you can willfully ignore:

Fornication is mentioned with NEGATIVE tone in 35 verses in the Bible.
Fornicator is mention in 5 verses.
Lust - 65 verses
Immorality - 21 verses
Sensual - 13 verses

That's a 5-minute word search Karl that showed me 139 verses that shut down your "gay is okay" mantra.

More modern translations use the phrase "sexual immorality" rather than "fornication". Why? Because fornication in modern English has a specific meaning that the term used in the Bible does not. It is a term that assumes you already know what sexual immorality is, but does not define what is or is not moral. To use these verses to condemn homosexuality does not work unless you have already demonstrated that homosexuality is a subset of "sexual immorality". This for various reasons I am far from convinced of.

I reccommend you ask yourself if gay is okay with God, and if so, why He bothers to mention His hatred of it BY ITS VERY NAME - even to go so far as to say that those who practice it WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

In some English translations. But not in others. If you'd read the article you hated so much you'd know that.

I patiently await your reply.

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

1Ti 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers

1Ti 1:10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

1Ti 1:11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

You have my reply. It is my firm opinion (and that of many bible translators) that the word in 1Ti 1:10 refers to temple prostitution. Do you have a good reason for assuming the translation you have is totally correct?