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What exactly is a liberal Christian?

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Katmando

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James Sez said:
Thank you to both you and buck for responding. I have had a poor record of getting people to actually respond to my posts. .
You are most welcome:)
James Sez said:
you are the very definition of the most of the conservatives that I have known in my past and see here at CF. You have a inflexible, single-minded devotion to your understanding of Christianity and you wield it like a baseball bat, all in the name of Jesus. Whack Whack
I (and I would bet Buck as well) wish all Christians Liberal to consertive could come to complete unity. So if you or any other person would be so kind to point out where you feel that buck is "inflexible, single-minded devotion to your understanding of Christianity" So that I can understand.

Thank you so much <><
 
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Buck72

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Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
[breaking my self-imposed retirement from this thread to explain]

Buck - you said anyone who concludes from Scripture that homosexuality isn't a sin is either stupid or a liar.

You know I do so conclude.

You said I'm not stupid. Therefore, you must think I'm a liar. It's not difficult to work out.

And that is itself a lie, as is your calling the Rev. a liar. That's what I'm calling you on.
BACK IT UP WITH SCRIPTURE PLEASE AND I WILL POST A PUBLIC REPENTANCE FOR EVERYONE TO SEE.

YOU CANNOT DO IT THOUGH CAN YOU?

If then, you cannot back up what I have posted to be false, then I, my friend, AM NOT A LIAR.

Next! :p
 
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seebs

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Buck72 said:
BACK IT UP WITH SCRIPTURE PLEASE AND I WILL POST A PUBLIC REPENTANCE FOR EVERYONE TO SEE.

YOU CANNOT DO IT THOUGH CAN YOU?

If then, you cannot back up what I have posted to be false, then I, my friend, AM NOT A LIAR.

Next! :p

Er, wrong.

If you can't prove that it's true, then you're making a claim you can't support.

If your "proof" is not convincing, then you are in fact wrong, because your claim is that your proof is utterly and totally convincing, and no one could ever doubt it.

There are a half billion or so people out there who don't find it convincing, probably more.
 
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Buck72

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Arikereba said:
So what?

If you're wrong, isn't there the possibility that many people who might otherwise have chosen to be Christians will not, because they just can't believe that a loving God would condemn monogamous and loving relationships, or ask people to utterly disregard scientific evidence, or force people to live in ways that make them miserable? And if you believe that you have to be Christian to be saved, doesn't that mean that those people won't be saved? (I'm not sure if you're a Calvinist; the point is moot if you are, I suppose).

I think the consequences for being wrong are just as serious no matter who's wrong.
Arikereba, please define some terms here so that we do make the mistake of misunderstanding.

1. "Monogamous loving relationships" - I don't find that term or reference anywhere in the Bible except as between a man and a woman in MARRIAGE.

2. " a loving God" seems to reject the idea that He is HOLY and will not tolerate sin. Let's iron out the creases of that statement before I start to misunderstand you and have you abandon discussion with me like my brother Karl seems to have done.

3. Nowhere does the Bible contradict science. It is the other way around. The WORD of God created the heavens and the earth, it is not at odds with the Creation.

4. One does NOT have to become a Christian first in order to be saved; that is backwards. One is saved by grace through faith, which comes by hearing, which comes by the word of God. The Word convicts the sinner of sin, that they see the need for salvation and repent of their sin in order to find it.

What else are we "saved" from!? :confused:

If the word of God is an offense (and it is) to people looking for the truth, and because of its offense they turn away - THEY WILL BEAR THE RESPONSIBILITY, NOT THE MESSENGER THAT SPEAKS THE WORD OF TRUTH. Don't get mad at me for speaking the words of my Master, I'm just the servant.

Joh 6:64-69 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."

I'm not a "calvinist" - I'm a Christian. Man has the free will, God has the eternal knowledge beforehand - the two are incomparable because they exist in two separate dimensions: man's free will (temporal); God's omniscience (Eternity).

Once the above terms can be clarified, we can enter into a mutual discussion with common understanding. :)
 
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Buck72

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seebs said:
Er, wrong.

If you can't prove that it's true, then you're making a claim you can't support.

If your "proof" is not convincing, then you are in fact wrong, because your claim is that your proof is utterly and totally convincing, and no one could ever doubt it.

There are a half billion or so people out there who don't find it convincing, probably more.
Seebs, please read the "logic" used by the theistic evolutionists to argue that because evolution cannot be disproven, thus it is true:

Vance said:
...science works through falsification, not proof. No one EVER tries to prove a theory since a theory is not something that can be proved. You have facts, data, evidence. You develop a theory to explain all of these. Then you immediately try to prove it false. Why? Because you can ALWAYS find evidence to support any theory, not matter how far-fetched, but an invalid theory will be quickly falsified by the data. A single instance of "hey, look at this piece of hard, cold data! This could not be if the theory was true!" Such a single falsification, and the theory goes "poof'!

So, accepted theories of why things happen have evidence to support it and the LACK of any faslification (so far). Never proof.

The holders to the theory simply point to the evidence which supports it, the logic and soundness of its conclusions, the areas in which the theory has been used as the basis for tests and those tests have had the predicted results, etc. These are either sufficient for the hearer to accept or they are not. There is not proof involved.

On the other hand, the only way to successfully establish that a theory is not correct is to produce a falsification. An event, a piece of data, etc, which establishes that the theory can not be correct. This is NOT your watermelon analogy in the least. Theories are proven false all the time by contradictory data.

So far, the opponents of the theory (almost ALL based on religious foundations, not objective reviews of the evidence) have failed to produce a single falsification.

This whole line of argument that "evolution is not proven" is simply a non-starter in science, and is only persuasive to the layman who wants to hear it.

So now, because my address does not meet your scholarly criteria, you reverse the burden of proof - DESPITE what "evidence" your TE buds have used to "refute" YEC Bible-literacy.

I love how you are so quick to say: "Er, Wrong" before you click the "previous" button to see that my post regarding irReverend Dawson a few pages back was refuting his claims by Biblical consultation, not from irReverend Dawson's unscriptural, illiterate gymnastics that say: "God says", when He, in fact did NOT say.


Jer 6:13-15 "For from the least of them even to the greatest of them, Everyone is greedy for gain, And from the prophet even to the priest Everyone deals falsely. "They have healed the brokenness of My people superficially, Saying, 'Peace, peace,' But there is no peace. "Were they ashamed because of the abomination they have done? They were not even ashamed at all; They did not even know how to blush. Therefore they shall fall among those who fall; At the time that I punish them, They shall be cast down," says the LORD.

Jer 6:16-18 Thus says the LORD, "Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.' "And I set watchmen over you, saying, 'Listen to the sound of the trumpet!' But they said, 'We will not listen.' "Therefore hear, O nations, And know, O congregation, what is among them.

Jer 6:19 "Hear, O earth: behold, I am bringing disaster on this people, The fruit of their plans, Because they have not listened to My words, And as for My law, they have rejected it also.

Please don't even start the "billion people believe" bit. That doesn't impress me, and it surely does not impress God:

Christ favors the minority that actually believe Him and do what He says:

Mat 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Mat 7:14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
 
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seebs

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Buck72 said:
Seebs, please read the "logic" used by the theistic evolutionists to argue that because evolution cannot be disproven, thus it is true:

I'll simply say that you have misunderstood the nature of the argument, and done so so completely that I see little point in trying to correct your understanding.

It seems quite clear that you are totally convinced you have the correct answers; this is a sad thing, because it closes the door on God, who can only answer questions you're really asking. When you, in your certainty and arrogance, claim certain knowledge, you make it impossible for anyone, even God, to communicate with you; you are simply no longer listening.

This is not faith; this is arrogance. Faith involves hope, and wonder; it cannot coexist with smug certainty.
 
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Buck72

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A afterthought to the previous post regarding my "unchristian" accusation that irReverend Dawson is a liar for refuting God's standard of holiness by which the church can not only accept unrepentant homosexuals, but elect them into Church LEADERSHIP. It would be one thing if they repented of their sin, but these false counselors attribute to God a smug tolerance of heresy, in that He does not really have a problem with "monogamous, loving relationships" regardless of whether they be homosexual or not.

God seems to have already answered this issue through Jeremiah, some things never change...


Jer 23:11 "For both prophet and priest are polluted; Even in My house I have found their wickedness," declares the LORD.

Jer 23:12 "Therefore their way will be like slippery paths to them, They will be driven away into the gloom and fall down in it; For I will bring calamity upon them, The year of their punishment," declares the LORD.

Jer 23:13 "Moreover, among the prophets of Samaria I saw an offensive thing: They prophesied by Baal and led My people Israel astray.

Jer 23:14 "Also among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen a horrible thing: The committing of adultery and walking in falsehood; And they strengthen the hands of evildoers, So that no one has turned back from his wickedness. All of them have become to Me like Sodom, And her inhabitants like Gomorrah.

Jer 23:15 "Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets, 'Behold, I am going to feed them wormwood And make them drink poisonous water, For from the prophets of Jerusalem Pollution has gone forth into all the land.'"

Jer 23:16 Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you. They are leading you into futility; They speak a vision of their own imagination, Not from the mouth of the LORD.

Jer 23:17 "They keep saying to those who despise Me, 'The LORD has said, "You will have peace"'; And as for everyone who walks in the stubbornness of his own heart, They say, 'Calamity will not come upon you.'

Jer 23:18 "But who has stood in the council of the LORD, That he should see and hear His word? Who has given heed to His word and listened?

Jer 23:19 "Behold, the storm of the LORD has gone forth in wrath, Even a whirling tempest; It will swirl down on the head of the wicked.

Jer 23:20 "The anger of the LORD will not turn back Until He has performed and carried out the purposes of His heart; In the last days you will clearly understand it.

Jer 23:21 "I did not send these prophets, But they ran. I did not speak to them, But they prophesied.

Jer 23:22 "But if they had stood in My council, Then they would have announced My words to My people, And would have turned them back from their evil way And from the evil of their deeds.

Jer 23:23 "Am I a God who is near," declares the LORD, "And not a God far off?

Jer 23:24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.

Jer 23:25 "I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy falsely in My name, saying, 'I had a dream, I had a dream!'

Jer 23:26 "How long? Is there anything in the hearts of the prophets who prophesy falsehood, even these prophets of the deception of their own heart,

Jer 23:27 who intend to make My people forget My name by their dreams which they relate to one another, just as their fathers forgot My name because of Baal?

Jer 23:28 "The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?" declares the LORD.

Jer 23:29 "Is not My word like fire?" declares the LORD, "and like a hammer which shatters a rock?

Jer 23:30 "Therefore behold, I am against the prophets," declares the LORD, "who steal My words from each other.

Jer 23:31 "Behold, I am against the prophets," declares the LORD, "who use their tongues and declare, 'The Lord declares.'

Jer 23:32 "Behold, I am against those who have prophesied false dreams," declares the LORD, "and related them and led My people astray by their falsehoods and reckless boasting; yet I did not send them or command them, nor do they furnish this people the slightest benefit," declares the LORD.

 
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Buck72

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seebs said:
I'll simply say that you have misunderstood the nature of the argument, and done so so completely that I see little point in trying to correct your understanding.

It seems quite clear that you are totally convinced you have the correct answers; this is a sad thing, because it closes the door on God, who can only answer questions you're really asking. When you, in your certainty and arrogance, claim certain knowledge, you make it impossible for anyone, even God, to communicate with you; you are simply no longer listening.

This is not faith; this is arrogance. Faith involves hope, and wonder; it cannot coexist with smug certainty.
WHAT ABOUT YOU SEEBS? WHAT ABOUT YOU?

My claims are that the BIBLE is absolute and correct. You too seem to be totally convinced of your own correctness also - Hmmmmm?

I do have the correct answers. The answers are in the Bible. They are not Buck's answers, they are God's. :clap:

Show me my arrogance, and I will repent. I confess to not be perfect, Christ is perfect, and His word is perfect. Buck72 is not perfect, but I'm not pressing forward with "arrogance" simply because I call attention to the infallibility of scripture. How does that equate me with arrogance?

Let's look at faith - I contest that it is with "smug certainty" that we can rest in the promises of God:

The word "faith" is found in 228 verses in the NT. It was the one thing that Christ marveled at, either by finding it in the believer, or failing to find it in the unbeliever.

Rom 10:16-19 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Rom 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

1Co 2:5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight--

2Co 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?

Gal 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Eph 3:12 in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.

Eph 6:16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

Col 1:21-23 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

I could go on and on, but I contest that your definition of faith is incomplete.
 
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Buck72

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seebs said:
I'll simply say that you have misunderstood the nature of the argument, and done so so completely that I see little point in trying to correct your understanding.
The amusing thing is I am cracking the arguments used by both liberals and thiestic evolutionists to undue the validity of scripture to cling to their NOTIONAL IDEALS, be it whatever.

On one hand the evolutionist argument was that: Evolution is unproven, it can only be disproven, thus it is substantiated. (Buck's paraphrase)

And the liberal refutation of scripture was: Your statement must be proven in order to be substantiated.

Anyone else see the shifting burden of proof here?

:sigh:
 
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seebs

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Buck72 said:
My claims are that the BIBLE is absolute and correct. You too seem to be totally convinced of your own correctness also - Hmmmmm?

Nope.

I do have the correct answers. The answers are in the Bible. They are not Buck's answers, they are God's. :clap:

When you claim that, unlike the people who have gone before you, you can interpret the Bible correctly, and get only true answers, well... I sure don't find that likely.

Show me my arrogance, and I will repent. I confess to not be perfect, Christ is perfect, and His word is perfect.

Look at our history. Look at the Southern Baptist Convention, which was founded on the right for clergy to hold slaves, in accord with Biblical teaching. Do you think they were right? If they were right, what of those who held that Christians ought to free their slaves?

How do you know that your interpretation is right, when so many others are wrong? Do you think they don't pray, too? Do you think they aren't really trying?

The only option we have apart from accusing everyone of acting in bad faith is to admit that we are fallible, and that this fallibility extends to our understanding of God's will for us.

If we don't admit that, that's arrogance. If we do, all the claims about "this is God's idea, not mine" are nonsense; they are our ideas about God's ideas, and may be terribly wrong.
 
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seebs

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Buck72 said:
The amusing thing is I am cracking the arguments used by both liberals and thiestic evolutionists to undue the validity of scripture to cling to their NOTIONAL IDEALS, be it whatever.

No, you're just asserting yourself to be magically able to divine exactly what God means, while everyone else is confused.

On one hand the evolutionist argument was that: Evolution is unproven, it can only be disproven, thus it is substantiated. (Buck's paraphrase)

This is a misrepresentation so extreme as to be bordering on false witness.

And the liberal refutation of scripture was: Your statement must be proven in order to be substantiated.

There's no one refuting scripture. What's being refuted is the claim "Buck72 is better qualified to interpret scripture than any other living person".
 
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Buck72

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tulc said:
When did this become an evolution thread?
tulc(must have dozed off there for a minute)
It isn't an evolution thread, just that the same folks argue two styles of "proofs" that wholly contradict one another, all the while laying into the literalist with both, bipolar barrels...I just find it odd that the burden of proof shifts whenever the anti-Biblical literalists have to defend their unsubstantiated posture against solid, basic, plain 'ol Bible text.

Given the nature of this forum, Bible-usage is totally accepted (and in most other threads) encouraged.

Your post did give me a chuckle! :D
 
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seebs

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Buck72 said:
It isn't an evolution thread, just that the same folks argue two styles of "proofs" that wholly contradict one another, all the while laying into the literalist with both, bipolar barrels...I just find it odd that the burden of proof shifts whenever the anti-Biblical literalists have to defend their unsubstantiated posture against solid, basic, plain 'ol Bible text.

Since you're going to keep repeating this, apparently, until it's corrected more carefully:

Evolution is supported by a great deal of data across multiple disciplines. While this falls short of "proof", that's no surprise; empiricism doesn't provide proofs, only "support". Empiricism can falsify claims, but not directly prove them.

As to the state of the Bible, you are making a very strong claim about the Bible, but you have not offered any real support for it. This is the difference; with evolution, there are a number of verifiable facts which tend to support the theory. Your claims about the Bible have not yet been shown to have such support.

Finally, your portrayal of a sincere effort to understand the Bible as "anti-biblical" is fundamentally wrong. Differences in how people understand the Bible are not a result of "pro-Bible" or "anti-Bible" positions; they are different approaches, both of which recognize the Bible as being very important.

This mischaracterization of the opposing position does you no credit.
 
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Buck72

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seebs said:
How do you know that your interpretation is right, when so many others are wrong? Do you think they don't pray, too? Do you think they aren't really trying?

The only option we have apart from accusing everyone of acting in bad faith is to admit that we are fallible, and that this fallibility extends to our understanding of God's will for us.

If we don't admit that, that's arrogance. If we do, all the claims about "this is God's idea, not mine" are nonsense; they are our ideas about God's ideas, and may be terribly wrong.
Now we're getting somewhere. Listen, if I take tiny verses out of context and jumble them up to paste on my wall, I can make the Bible say about anything.

I contend that I am neither doing that nor attempting, by any measure to bring about the will of Buck into anything - other than perhaps the "current events and politics" threads.

My challenge to you brother, and Karl, is to show me specific Biblical errors that I have made, with Biblical support. Then will I contend that I've been erroneous, and will concede my point of contention.

The only reason I have taken posture against much of what liberal Christians believe is:

1. Exclusion of Biblical standards, judgement.
2. Inclusion of things (homosexuality) that are unbiblical.

My goal is not to harp on homosexuals - it really isn't! God LOVES people and wants to see them come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. One of the most influential men in my Christian life was a gay man that was dying of AIDS. He had repented of his sin, dealt with the fact that he was dying, and yet burned with in intense fervor for Christ that I will never attain to. This guy was among the most sold-out people I have ever met. He was all about seeking the glory of Christ above all things. Did I mention he used to be gay?

So, I hope I've cleared that. The reason I've made contention of gay is only because of Gene Robinson (the gay bishop); that he REMAINS in sin despite the clarity of the word of God, is bone-chilling.

I'm losing my focus...back to topic. :blush:

Seebs, I know that people pray, and they do their best. I have this same debate with my own father. I know that you and I agree that we are fallible. I will stand on the roof of my house and shout: "CONTEMPT" for myself because I agree with the word of God that I am contemptible.

Where we part is whether the Bible is the word of God or not.

We've doused the arrogance, now let's hit the Bible's credibility:

2Ti 3:16-17 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Psa 138:2 I will bow down toward Your holy temple And give thanks to Your name for Your lovingkindness and Your truth; For You have magnified Your word according to all Your name.

Isa 66:2 "For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD. "But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.

Either the Bible is the word of God, or it isn't.

What next? :confused:
 
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Buck72

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seebs said:
As to the state of the Bible, you are making a very strong claim about the Bible, but you have not offered any real support for it. This is the difference; with evolution, there are a number of verifiable facts which tend to support the theory. Your claims about the Bible have not yet been shown to have such support.
Wha!? I have given support...SCRIPTURE. I keep posting scripture in my posts!

Finally, your portrayal of a sincere effort to understand the Bible as "anti-biblical" is fundamentally wrong. Differences in how people understand the Bible are not a result of "pro-Bible" or "anti-Bible" positions; they are different approaches, both of which recognize the Bible as being very important.
Hang on - I said: "anti-biblical literalists". I MEANT those not taking the Bible literally. Sorry for the verbage...it's really late here in Charleston. :yawn:
 
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seebs

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Buck72 said:
Wha!? I have given support...SCRIPTURE. I keep posting scripture in my posts!

Yes, but why should I believe that it means what you say it means? There is what the book says, and then there is your interpretation of it.
 
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seebs

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Buck72 said:
Now we're getting somewhere. Listen, if I take tiny verses out of context and jumble them up to paste on my wall, I can make the Bible say about anything.

Sure, but that's not what we're talking about.

I contend that I am neither doing that nor attempting, by any measure to bring about the will of Buck into anything - other than perhaps the "current events and politics" threads.

You don't have to intend it. When you read things, they are filtered through Buck72-colored lenses.

My challenge to you brother, and Karl, is to show me specific Biblical errors that I have made, with Biblical support. Then will I contend that I've been erroneous, and will concede my point of contention.

It's still circular. If I show you a passage which I think shows you to be in erroor, you will, of course, interpret it in line with your own vision.

This has been tried before. Read up on the history of abolitionism in the church. To make a long story short, if someone believes that the Bible says something, there is basically no way to convince him otherwise.

1. Exclusion of Biblical standards, judgement.

Right. "Therefore art thou inexcusable, O man, that judgest." Judgment is forbidden to us.

2. Inclusion of things (homosexuality) that are unbiblical.

You're quite right; it's so unbiblical that the Bible doesn't actually mention homosexuality at all; that's your filter. The Bible, in the original language, as understood by the men who held the pens, never talks about anything you or I would recognize as "homosexuality".

Did I mention he used to be gay?

He died gay. He may have stopped having sex (many people do), but inborn traits are inborn traits.

Seebs, I know that people pray, and they do their best. I have this same debate with my own father. I know that you and I agree that we are fallible. I will stand on the roof of my house and shout: "CONTEMPT" for myself because I agree with the word of God that I am contemptible.

That's not the word of God; that's your interpretation of the Bible.

Where we part is whether the Bible is the word of God or not.

And also on what the words in it mean.

The Word, the only Word, is Jesus. The Living Word, who became flesh and dwelt among us. That's it. There is no other "Word of God"; to give that title to any object is idolatry at best. There is a book, full of information handed down by people who knew Jesus, and God, very well, and this information guides us to Him, but in the end, it is the relationship with God which saves you, not the Bible.

We've doused the arrogance, now let's hit the Bible's credibility:

Unfortunately, you're about to try to cite scripture to support scripture. That works for any holy book. The Quran claims to be inspired and infallible too. So does the book of Mormon.

What we need is an extra-Biblical source for the credibility of the Bible. What I have there is God, who has led me to understand it, not as some kind of letter-perfect guide to the galaxy, but as a very good start on understanding Him; just enough to get me started.

2Ti 3:16-17 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

You omitted a crucial piece of notation. The word "is" should have been in italics, because it was added by translators. Other translators believe it is more correct to say "All scripture which is inspired by God is profitable for..."

Note, also, that something need not be factually accurate in every detail to meet this standard.

Finally, remember that this referred only to what we now call the Old Testament; that was "scripture". Paul's letters and the gospels were not "scripture" for another 300 years.

Psa 138:2 I will bow down toward Your holy temple And give thanks to Your name for Your lovingkindness and Your truth; For You have magnified Your word according to all Your name.

Yes, but the Word is Jesus, not the Bible.

Either the Bible is the word of God, or it isn't.

Isn't. The Bible didn't die for my sins. In the beginning was the Word, but the Bible didn't exist until 325AD.

What next? :confused:

What next? We practice Christianity, as practiced by the early Christians, and set out by Jesus the Christ, which involves worshipping God, not a book which is used as a superstitious talisman to intercede between us and God.

This is about a personal relationship with God. The book is not necessary; God is.

You can be saved by God without ever seeing a Bible, but the Bible cannot save you without God.

The gradual deification of the Bible is idolatry, pure and simple; it contradicts the very tenets of the faith.
 
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