What exactly is a liberal Christian?

[seebs]

Also, it's my understanding that Martin Luther was "born-again" through reading the scriptures himself, instead of listening to a priest expound on them. Does this not speak to you. I credit the Bible with a major part in my salvation also!

It's great that the Bible led you to God, but at the end of the day, it's God that saves us.

You sound so much like pax, a gnostic in the sex forum who finally gave up on us when we refused to follow his heretical path!

I'm pretty sure I'm not a gnostic. Depending on which gnostic heresy you have in mind, I reject them for different reasons, but...

Honestly, the thing that sounds like gnosticism to me is the claim that the Jews and/or Muslims don't worship the same God we do. If the Jews don't worship our God, who do they worship? The only plausible and consistent answer is to invent the demiurge. Either they worshipped God, or they didn't. If they did, well, we've acknowledged that the God of Abraham is one God, no matter what else people say about Him. They may be wrong about His attributes (as I am sure we are in some ways), but they have recognized the Creator of all things, seen and unseen.

 

[BarbB]

It's great that the Bible led you to God, but at the end of the day, it's God that saves us.


If the Jews don't worship our God, who do they worship? The only plausible and consistent answer is to invent the demiurge. Either they worshipped God, or they didn't. If they did, well, we've acknowledged that the God of Abraham is one God, no matter what else people say about Him. They may be wrong about His attributes (as I am sure we are in some ways), but they have recognized the Creator of all things, seen and unseen.

The Jews DO obviously worship the same god we do, or rather since we are grafted into the Jews' line, we worship the same God they do! You said that Allah and God were the same - I merely said that they were not. You said that God had a covenant with Abraham and through him to Islam. I said no that the covenant was with Isaac!

I agree that it is God who saves us, but without going to church and reading the Bible, I might have died on the vine. I guess that I did not have a road to Damascas experience the way you have.

Christi, I did like Pax, but his theology was seriously messed up. And I don't know where Fejao has been. David's been racketing around the boards, but his theology is good and not many debate him!

 

[seebs]

The Jews DO obviously worship the same god we do, or rather since we are grafted into the Jews' line, we worship the same God they do! You said that Allah and God were the same - I merely said that they were not. You said that God had a covenant with Abraham and through him to Islam. I said no that the covenant was with Isaac!

Huh? It's not "through him to Islam". It's that the Muslims pray to "the God who made a covenant with Abraham".

If you address a letter to "God, creator of all things seend and unseen, who made a covenant with Abraham", it goes to the God Christians worship. It doesn't matter whether you write "God" or "Deus" or "Theos" or "Allah". Those are all just translations of a word; none of them is a name. "Allah" is not a name. It's a word in a language, same as "God", and with exactly the same meaning. The use of it as if it were a name is a common quirk of monotheists.

I agree that it is God who saves us, but without going to church and reading the Bible, I might have died on the vine. I guess that I did not have a road to Damascas experience the way you have.

Right. Not everyone does, but it's still out there as an option.

 

[BarbB]

Once again Seeb - God's covenant was with Isaac, not Abraham!

GE 17:19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. [20] And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. [21] But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year."

Polycarp - I was saved in an Episcopalian church - maybe that's why I'm arguing for the Bible and fellowship the way I am?

 

[seebs]

Once again Seeb - God's covenant was with Isaac, not Abraham!

Fine, whatever. The God who talked to Abraham. There's only one, no?

The Jews and Christians both follow "the God of Abraham". The Muslims, by contrast, follow "the God of Abraham". Either Abraham had two gods, only one of which we hear about, or the Muslims are following the same God we are. You can argue with the details of their beliefs about him, same as we can argue about gnostics, or trinitarians, or unitarians, or any other set of beliefs about God, but it's clearly the same guy.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Once again Seeb - God's covenant was with Isaac, not Abraham!

Polycarp - I was saved in an Episcopalian church - maybe that's why I'm arguing for the Bible and fellowship the way I am?

Abraham made a covenant which was passed on through Isaac to Jacob to the twelve tribes of Isreal. Isaac inherited the covenant. Notice how God tells Abraham that his descendents will be as numerous as the stars and inherit the land of Canaan. It was Abraham who circumcized himself as a sign of accepting the covenant.

 

[seebs]

Abraham made a covenant which was passed on through Isaac to Jacob to the twelve tribes of Isreal. Isaac inherited the covenant. Notice how God tells Abraham that his descendents will be as numerous as the stars and inherit the land of Canaan. It was Abraham who circumcized himself as a sign of accepting the covenant.

Yeah. That's what I was referring to. The claim that Abraham's descendents will be as numerous as the stars was made by the creator of all things, seen and unseen. It is that creator that Muslims pray to; they identify Him by precisely that characteristic.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Genesis

17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless. 2 And I will make a covenant between me and you, and will make you exceedingly numerous"

 

[Buck72]

No it isnot.

Jesus is.

Period.

The Bible is a book. Jesus is a man.

The claim that the Bible is the Word is, quite simply, idolatry; it is treating an object as a god.

Did you bother to actually READ my post? You certainly do not seem to have the capacity to understand that I clearly typed out that the Book is NOT GOD. The contents, the articulated message is God's word to us. God seems to have rather high esteem for His word:

Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

The LORD has manifested Himself through His word. In the compilation of His message, the Bible, we have the creation, the fall, the judgement, the redemption, and the promise of eternal glory. In His word we learn Who He is, who we are, and what His, and our purpose is to be in this life. Our sin is exposed, yet so is His forgiveness, in it we also grow in all aspects to life and godliness that we may be complete.

Apart from it is all speculation, notional subjectivity, and hormonal urges to do whatever the flesh desires; neither rules, nor conviction exist; we become our own clearinghouse of establishing the context of right/wrong.

No wonder so much of the church is an enemic wasteland of worldy trash. The saints are no longer fed truth, instead they receive a concoction of delightful sippings on the latest feel-goodisms that the world advertises as "good".

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Isa 5:21 Woe unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

Isa 5:22 Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

Isa 5:23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

Pro 28:10 Whoso causeth the righteous to go astray in an evil way, he shall fall himself into his own pit: but the upright shall have good [things] in possession.

Your astounding rejection of the Bible being the word of God, plus your elemental misunderstanding of the tenents of the most basic forms of literary comprehension so as to ignore over 130 verses that directly expel any notion that homosexuality is an acceptable form of personal, practical holiness for the believer, is clear proof that you are simply stone-set to ignore the FACTS on purpose. I beg you with all my very being to reconsider.

No one can mess that up accidently.

Here'e something else to ponder for EVERYONE:

The Ten Commandments refute homosexuality.

Exo 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery.

Q: How does a practicing homosexual get around this verse?

Anyone?

 

[Buck72]

BTW, Buck, my refusal to take your bait on the obviously wrong translation is not a concession of any sort; if you want to talk about translations of 1 Cor 6:9, that would be a Sexuality and Christianity topic.

Negative. That would be a sin topic, and is fitting just fine in the definitions of liberal christianity and why they choose to alienate themselves from the word of God. My contention is that they do so to practice darkness (ie: tolerate sin) and since the Bible is a light, it should be left in a dresser drawer, quietly tucked away so that nobody has to feel bad or take offense.

I say: If we are Christ's, and He has called us out of the darkness and into the light - Why do we keep living in darkness like the rest of the world? Why aren't we taking His word SERIOUSLY as it is a matter of eternal consequence!!

Psa 119:105 Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

 

[seebs]

Did you bother to actually READ my post? You certainly do not seem to have the capacity to understand that I clearly typed out that the Book is NOT GOD. The contents, the articulated message is God's word to us. God seems to have rather high esteem for His word:

No, no, no.

THE WORD IS GOD.

That's what the book says.

If the Bible is true, then "the Word of God" is God.

The Bible may be God's words to us, but it is not the Word.

 

[seebs]

Negative. That would be a sin topic

Doesn't matter. All homosexuality-related debates go in Sexuality & Christianity, to keep the damage to a minimum.

In short, the people who disagree with you are, for the most part, taking God's guidance just as seriously as you are; they just disagree with you about what that guidance is.

 

[Buck72]

Doesn't matter. All homosexuality-related debates go in Sexuality & Christianity, to keep the damage to a minimum.

It does matter! Plus, I'm not debating sexuality, I'm debating tolerance of sin, as a modus operandi of many liberal christians. Homosexuality is merely an example of a major moral breakdown in the church.

In short, the people who disagree with you are, for the most part, taking God's guidance just as seriously as you are; they just disagree with you about what that guidance is.

I don't care about people disagreeing with me. That's a great thing actually since I require disagreement in order to grow myself, that is why God gave us this word:

Pro 27:17 Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

The issue is the Bible, and the gross negligence in ignoring it and contorting it to say what it does not say. I'm pasting scripture so that it can be clearly read by all visitors to this forum, and you're telling me I'm misinterpreting it!? How is that possible if I just cut/paste? I have yet to see anyone refute me with a reasonable, biblical assertion that I'm in error.

If so, I promise to repent.

 

[seebs]

It does matter! Plus, I'm not debating sexuality, I'm debating tolerance of sin, as a modus operandi of many liberal christians. Homosexuality is merely an example of a major moral breakdown in the church.

But the question is not "tolerance of sin", but "is this sin at all", and that question belongs over there.

The issue is the Bible, and the gross negligence in ignoring it and contorting it to say what it does not say.

Indeed.

I'm pasting scripture so that it can be clearly read by all visitors to this forum, and you're telling me I'm misinterpreting it!?

Yes.

You quote it to support your position, but it doesn't actually support your position.

How is that possible if I just cut/paste? I have yet to see anyone refute me with a reasonable, biblical assertion that I'm in error.

Imagine that someone were to say "Rich men cannot go to heaven, ever." He cites the passage about "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle". Now, you might think that he's misunderstood this passage. The problem isn't with his quote; it's with how he chooses to understand it.

The problem is that you have an interpretation of the entire Bible which is wrong. This means that you interpret every single passage remotely relevant to the question in a way which is consistent with your beliefs, but which I believe is incorrect. There is no passage which "shows" this; your interpretation applies to the entire Bible.

It is impossible for humans to read a text "as is"; we always interpret it. There is no way for us to get past this.

When you read the Bible, you are putting your own personal "spin" on it. You can't avoid doing this. That's not sinful, or wrong; it's just what it is to be fallible and human.

However, once you've done that, you can't just say "show me a passage that says I'm wrong". You will interpret any such text in accordance with your own beliefs.

All I can do is point out that, taken as a whole, your position seems to be clearly wrong, and that this means that your entire interpretation needs to be reconsidered.

 

[Polycarp1]

Well, Buck, I'll tell you what my perspective is, and you can agree or disagree as you see fit.

We are not any of us in the place of God. He is the judge, before whom we all deserve to be condemned for our sins. But Christ atoned for them, and His love is such that He calls us to Him, and equips us to be His sons and daughters by adoption and grace, through the intercession of Christ.

It is, therefore, our obligation to follow Christ, our Savior and Lord. He said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

The Bible outlines a whole string of commandments. I am certainly happy I never had a brother who died childless, because there are two completely contradictory commandments regarding this: I am not to marry his widow -- but I am to take her to wife and raise up a son in his stead, begetting him on her.

But what Christ Himself commanded was quite simple, if impossible to do completely: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy mind and with all thy soul and with all thy strength." And, like unto it, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

Asked who one's neighbor is, Christ responds with the example of the Good Samaritan -- and in reading this, we must remember that the Samaritan was a half-caste heretic, the most despicable of people to a good Jew's eye. If he were telling the story in Israel today, the man who rescued the man beset by thieves would be a Palestinian Moslem. If he were telling it in America, it would be a gay Arab socialist.

He commands us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. And, of course, we cannot do this.

He tells us to judge not, for with the judgment with which we measure others, we ourselves will be judged. Having been the beneficiaries of God's mercy and compassion, we should therefore render to others the same mercy and compassion.

He tells us not to trust in our own righteousness, but to count it as filthy rags, and trust in God's righteousness instead.

Which means, my friend, that when I am faced with how to treat another, say those gay people whose love lives you are pleased to call sin (and let me note that there have been several threads in the Sexuality forum discussing the accuracy of the translations of the passages which you quote), what I am obliged to do is to count them as my brothers and sisters for whom, as much as for you and me, Christ offered Himself in sacrifice for their sins. I am not to judge them, which for me means not only to stand in judgment over them but to call their acts sinful -- because that is between Him and them -- He will convict them of their sins, if they are sins in His sight. (It's quite possible that He vehemently condemned rape of one man by another, the molesting of children, and a few other vile acts, and that the translations we see as condemning "homosexuality" are actually condemning those sins instead. Whether this is true or not, the point is that they and they alone will answer for their sins, and will need to repent of their sins -- and it's not my business to accuse them of sin. The Holy Spirit will convict them if and when He sees it right to do so.

What I am to do is to show God's love to them as He has shown it to me, and as others have shown it to me in His name, to tell them the Good News of His salvation, by word and deed, to treat them as I would wish to be treated in their shoes (the only thing Christ puts on a par with the Two Great Commandments is the Golden Rule; together they summarize the Law and the Prophets, a shocking claim if I were to make it -- but it is Jesus Christ who makes that claim!)

And if any passage in the Bible goes against what Christ Himself said were the two greatest commandments, the ones which wrap all the others into themselves -- even the Ten Commandments -- then I must follow what He commands, and not what a passage in even that holiest of Books seems to command.

Because my salvation, my hope, is in Jesus Christ, and none other. The Bible will not save me; it will only teach me about Him, and about His Father and the Holy Spirit. Nothing on Earth or in high Heaven will save me but Him.

And my commitment is to Him.

 

[MissFirerose]

Imagine that someone were to say "Rich men cannot go to heaven, ever." He cites the passage about "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle". Now, you might think that he's misunderstood this passage. The problem isn't with his quote; it's with how he chooses to understand it.

The problem is that you have an interpretation of the entire Bible which is wrong. This means that you interpret every single passage remotely relevant to the question in a way which is consistent with your beliefs, but which I believe is incorrect. There is no passage which "shows" this; your interpretation applies to the entire Bible.

It is impossible for humans to read a text "as is"; we always interpret it. There is no way for us to get past this.

When you read the Bible, you are putting your own personal "spin" on it. You can't avoid doing this. That's not sinful, or wrong; it's just what it is to be fallible and human.

However, once you've done that, you can't just say "show me a passage that says I'm wrong". You will interpret any such text in accordance with your own beliefs.

All I can do is point out that, taken as a whole, your position seems to be clearly wrong, and that this means that your entire interpretation needs to be reconsidered.

Seebs once again, I'll say it. We need more people like you here.

 

[Christi]

Seebs once again, I'll say it. We need more people like you here.

Polycarp1, too! I'm hanging out here just to read them! (Hoping thier smartness is contagious. )

 

[tulc]

Amen.
tulc

 

[Northern Christian]

I hate it when these threads become so cluttered that I can't reply to everyone. I guess I'll have to skim through and reply to what I can.

 

[Katmando]

But what Christ Himself commanded was quite simple, if impossible to do completely: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy mind and with all thy soul and with all thy strength." And, like unto it, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

How do you love?

If you have a friend, child or muslim that is doing drugs is it loving to just tell them it is ok. If that what makes you feel good. Or do try to give them help? Would it be judging them to get them help?