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The courtesy of saying I no longer wish to discuss the matter is not a continuation of the conversation with those I was actually in the conversation with. This is the first comment I have seen from you, and I am continuing that courtesy by saying I am done with the conversation.I am confused... if you are no longer interested in the discussion why do you continue to engage in the discussion?
No you weren't because you went on to make further comments, hence my confusion.The courtesy of saying I no longer wish to discuss the matter is not a continuation of the conversation with those I was actually in the conversation with. This is the first comment I have seen from you, and I am continuing that courtesy by saying I am done with the conversation.
In my last thread, because of comments by some others, I was accused of believing in Universal Salvation. As I understand the term, I categorically do not believe that everyone will be saved regardless of their response to Christ. I believe that Christ died for all mankind, taking the sins of all the world upon himself, but we still have to accept or reject that gift by believing the Gospel.
However, to be honest, I have never really researched what people believe who declare Universal Salvation. So I am inviting all those who believe it to show me why you believe it.
I am not setting this up as a bait to convince you otherwise. But I will honestly disagree or agree depending on what is said. Please let me know why you believe in Universal Salvation. Thank you.
When you want to learn how to do something yourself or what to expect you go to someone with the experience in the subject to show you or teach you. In the same way I went to those who had died and came back to life, i.e Near Death experience cases and testimonies on youtube. An in those repeatedly was visions of hell. So I haven't died yet, an my basis goes off of that confirming there is a hell.
If we take the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus to be an account of the afterlife, the we must also accept what it says in that parable about people coming back from Hell to warn others.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Some people would question if he had actually died. OTOH if it were the resurrected Jesus, and they could stick their hands into His side, or see Him suddenly appear in a room with closed doors, as doubting Thomas did, then they might believe:
John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Compare also:
Matthew 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Luke 10:13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Will Tyre & Sidon be damned forever because they didn't get a chance to see what would have brought about their repentance?
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
So, according to Mathew 25:41, "Hell" was created for Satan and his minions.
This however is quite problematic. Why would God do this?
Do you have scripture which explicitly says this?... All will be saved. God's mercy doesn't expire when you do!
Article linked above said:[...]
Contrary to their accusation that we believe sinners will be let into heaven “without ever changing” we believe “all the earth will look to God and be saved” (Isa 45: ), that God has “reconciled all things unto Himself ” (Col 1:10), that “every knee will bow to the glory of God the Father” (Phil 2:10), and that He is “making all things new.” (Rev 21:5)
3. “Because we are image bearers and have a conscience with a longing for justice” we intuitively know that justice entails more than retributive punishment. There is even a term for it–it is called “restorative justice.” We know that true Biblical justice is defined as DOING justice rather than GETTING justice. The Church has been growing in this understanding of justice as restorative which ideally includes reconciliation between victim and offender whenever possible. A prison sentence is not true justice but rather simply bringing consequences to bear while protecting society. True Biblical justice will result in righteousness which is the returning of something to its “right-useness” or as Keller reveals, the Hebrew meaning carries with it the sense of “right relationship.” Punitive justice is human, earthly, and temporal while restorative justice is God’s righteous and ultimate goal for all His creation (or what Keller calls primary justice).
I'm late to this party (and it looks like everyone has gone home).....but I just read through most of the thread and just wanted to add this article, as it addresses a lot of the typical misunderstandings of Christian Universalism (just in case anyone is interested):
What Universalism is NOT
.....and, on a personal level: I actually believe it's offering a sort of false sense of security to "preach the Gospel" that all a person needs to do is "just say this prayer" (giving the impression that treatment of others doesn't matter any longer since their "just punishment" will be avoided) and then never really emphasize the transforming power of God's love.
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
ed, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Do you have scripture which explicitly says this?Previous post
End.
Would you care to address the other scripture I quoted? There must be some way you can force them to support universalism? In 2 Cor 4:7-8 Paul tells us the meaning of aioniosWhere does Matthew 7:22-23 say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity? I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end." ?
Actually His remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to.
"Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to ECT it's next to nothing. . . .
Would you care to address the other scripture I quoted? There must be some way you can force them to support universalism? In 2 Cor 4:7-8 Paul tells us the meaning of aionios
Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionos] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, [παραυτίκα] worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal[πρόσκαιρος]; but the things which are not seen are eternal.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
παραυτίκα parautika
From G3844 and a derivative of G846; at the very instant, that is, momentary: - but for a moment.
πρόσκαιρος proskairos
From G4314 and G2540; for the occasion only, that is, temporary: - dur- [eth] for awhile, endure for a time, for a season, temporal.
God is love. His punishments are always corrective, remedial, for salvation:
Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.
The word eternal/everlasting "αἰώνιος...lasting for an age...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting... (also used of past time, or past and future as well) Derivation: from G165;" G166 αἰώνιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon
Matthew 25:41 Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers. (CLV)
Online Parallel Study Bibles
Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; (YLT)
"Then will He say to those at His left, "'Begone from me, with the curse resting upon you, into the Fire of the Ages, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels. (WEY)
Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
My point was, if the LOF was created for the Devil and his angels, then who Satan actually is is very important.
The Scriptures don't leave us to speculate about who Satan is. Although, there is a lot of speculation that goes on.
Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
1Ki 22:18 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?
1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
It doesn't really seem fair that God would sentence Satan to an eternity of fiery torture for merely doing what he was created to do.
However, if you are given to believing old wives tales, you might believe that Satan was once a beautiful Angel who rebelled, etc, etc....
There seems to be a whole lot of conning going on with this source and a whole lot of universalists being conned. From Lexical Aids to the New Testament compiled and edited by Spiros Zodhiates ThD. 1991"The Complete Word Study Dictionary" (Spiros Zhodiates). Even it says the word aionion is "from aion, age" and includes the meanings of "perpetual, belonging to the aion, to time in its duration, constant, abiding". So like the vast majority of learned sources, it also agrees the word, & its noun, may refer to a duration which is of a limited time period that has an end. The real issue here, then, is whether or not the word means a limited time period in the context of Matthew 25:31-46 in regards to punishment. That is something that should be a matter of serious study rather than assumptions based on what my pastor or bible study group assumes to be the case.
There seems to be a whole lot of conning going on with this source and a whole lot of universalists being conned. From Lexical Aids to the New Testament compiled and edited by Spiros Zodhiates ThD. 1991
166 Aionios eternal, belonging to the aion (165) time in its duration, that is constant, abiding. Used when referring to eternal life, the life which is Gods and hence not affected by the limitations of time Aiodios specially predicated of the saving blessings of divine revelation. denoting not belonging to what is transitory Meanings (1) Having neither beginning nor end (Rom. 16:26, Héb. 9:14) (2) without end (Mar 25:41. 46: 2 Thess. 1:9) In Philemon 1 15. meaning forever. not only during the term of Ones natural life, but through endless ages of eternal life and blessedness (3) In Jude 11. Eternal fire refers to the miraculous fire from heaven which destroyed the cites of Sodom and Gormorrha. This is evidenced not only because the effect thereof shall be of equal duration with the world, but also because the burning of those cities is a dreadful emblem of that everlasting fire (Matt 25:41) which awaits the ungodly and unclean (cf. 2 Pet 2.6). (4) Chrónoi. times. aionioi. eternal means the ages of the world, the times since the beginning of the world’s existence (Rom. 16:25: 2 Tim 1:9, Titus 1:2, cf. Eph 1:4, 1 Pet 1:20)
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