• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured What Does Universal Salvation Mean?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by AlexDTX, Jun 21, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    +4,893
    Anglican
    Married
    And your response isn't?

    We ALL have some sort of agenda.

    There's a group of Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel that literally spend their whole day....day in and day out..studying the Torah...much like the Pharisees that were "experts in the law"....yet they are still missing the Gospel message (my point is......reading and studying words doesn't mean a person actually is translating the message written in the Spirit). If that were the case......Jesus of Nazareth wouldn't have been killed on a cross.


    None of the rulers of this age understood it. If they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.~1 Cor 2:8
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  2. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

    +309
    Non-Denom
    Married

    It's all spiritual. When you think it's literal, it's actually spiritual.
    How do you decide which things are spiritual and which things are literal?

    1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
    1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
     
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    To a greater or lesser degree I would agree with you but did you happen to notice I made my point by comparing scripture to scripture whereas the post I was responding to was nothing more than, "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!"
     
  4. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +910
    Non-Denom
    Married
    CONTEXT.

     
  5. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

    +309
    Non-Denom
    Married
    But that directly contradicts what Paul says about comparing spiritual with spiritual.
    Can you show me the scripture about context?
     
  6. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

    +1,040
    Anglican
    Married
    here you go CONTEXT...

    1Cor. 13:1-3 If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
     
  7. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +910
    Non-Denom
    Married
    In general, and as I do with other books, I let the Bible explain itself. In doing so, I learn that the literal things have (very often) a spiritual element, and I get that. Otherwise I try to balance between an overly spiritual interpretation and a literalist approach, trying to be aware of both. Always keep in mind that the Bible is multi-layered and multi-dimensional.
     
  8. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

    +309
    Non-Denom
    Married

    So no actual direct quote from scripture telling us that scripture is to be understood in context then?
    Perhaps you could explain to me how this scripture is used in "context"?

    Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
     
  9. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

    +1,040
    Anglican
    Married
    How much more direct do you need it to be?

    To be fair I was not sure if you were joking or not when you asked "Can you show me the scripture about context?". Why would you expect to see a commandment in scripture that states "Thou shalt read scripture in context."? The Bible is not a text book on how to read and write critically, I would assume like today an author would expect those who could read and write would know how do to so critically. The scripture I posted is an example of how Paul used context in his pericope on love.

    Now in you question above on Matt. 2:15. First of all Matthews Gospel target audience was the Jews and its theme was basically showing the Jews that Jesus was in fact the Messiah promised in the Hebrew Bible. The passage you quoted is part of the 'The Egyptian Sojourn (2:13-15)' pericope which is a smaller part of the story of Jesus' early years. We can only assume that the purpose for Matthew including this narrative was to tell the audience of his Gospel that Jesus was the Messiah because he did come out of Egypt just as Hosea said in his prophecy "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. (Hos. 11:1 NIV)"

    The following shows you where your passage fits into the Prologue section of the Gospel of Matthew.

    Section I Prologue (1:1-2:23)
    A. The Genealogy of Jesus (1:1-17)
    B. The Birth of Jesus (1:18-25)
    C. The Visit of the Magi (2:1-12)
    D. The Egyptian Sojourn (2:13-15)
    E. The Slaughter of the Innocents (2:16-18)
    F. The Return to Nazareth (2:19-23)

    The following is an extract from the online dictionary that explains the meaning of the word 'context'.

    and the following URL will take you to page that explains simply how to read the Bible in Context.

    Bible Study Skills: Reading in Context
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  10. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    +4,893
    Anglican
    Married
    It was more than that.

    The point was being made that your posted belief is in opposition to the Apostle's Creed. Comparing scripture to scripture (which he'd done extensively in the previous post) wouldn't be relevant.
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  12. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Devoted to Truth Supporter

    +10,752
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    I have found that universalism is a term that everything gets dumped into. Most importantly for those who have agendas to maintain. If they could sort thru the bs of what universalism doesn't stand for in the context of what doesn't apply to all saved then it would be much easier to understand. That said I have not read the thread so perhaps it has been answered as to the meaning in a more fuller term plus the naunces.
     
  13. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    I quoted scripture, the words of Paul. The response said, that contradicts the Apostle's creed. Since when does the Apostle's creed trump scripture?
     
  14. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

    +1,057
    Non-Denom
    Married
    If agenda driven means what the early church recited, then I have no problem with the agenda. Have you considered that the early church got it right and that your interpretation of the scriptures is inaccurate?
    I have no idea where you got the translation of krino as "might be saved." Krino instead refers to the idea of judgment.
    κρίνω (krinō)
    Strong: G2919
    GK: G3212
    pluperfect, κεκρίκει (3 sg), pr. to separate; to make a distinction between; to exercise judgment upon; to estimate, Rom. 14:5; to judge, to assume censorial power over, to call to account, Mt. 7:1; Lk. 6:37; Rom. 2:1, 3; 14:3, 4, 10, 13; Col. 2:16; Jas. 4:11, 12; to bring under question, Rom. 14:22; to judge judicially, to try as a judge, Jn. 18:31; to bring to trial, Acts 13:27; to sentence, Lk. 19:22; Jn. 7:51; to resolve on, decree, Acts 16:4; Rev. 16:5; absol. to decide, determine, resolve, Acts 3:13; 15:19; 27:1; to deem, Acts 13:46; to form a judgment, pass judgment, Jn. 8:15; pass. to be brought to trial, Acts 25:10, 20; Rom. 3:4; to be brought to account, to incur arraignment, be arraigned, 1 Cor. 10:29; mid. to go to law, litigate, Mt. 5:40; in NT to judge, to visit judicially, Acts 7:7; 1 Cor. 11:31, 32; 1 Pet. 4:6; to judge, to right, to vindicate, Heb. 10:30; to administer government over, to govern, Mt. 19:28; Lk. 22:30
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  15. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Devoted to Truth Supporter

    +10,752
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    Christian Universalism is a school of Christian theology which includes the belief in the doctrine of universal reconciliation, the view that all human beings will ultimately be restored to a right relationship with God in Heaven and the New Jerusalem.​
    That is universalism in a nutshell;


    1) Evangelical universalism departs the least from orthodox yet still believes in universal reconciliation. Evangelical Universalists hold to conservative positions on most theological or doctrinal issues except for the doctrine of hell, in which case they assert universal reconciliation instead of eternal torment.
    But why does someone who believes that hellfire is a refining fire for purging of His children (totally biblical) and does not believe that God saves everyone get clumped into universalism. Frankly they are not universalists and shouldn't be called one.

    2) Charismatic Universalism "is marked by its emphasis on theosis; the idea that the return of Christ is a body of perfected human beings who are the "Manifested Sons of God" instead of a literal return of the person of Jesus;[41] the idea that these Sons will reign on the earth and transform all other human beings from sin to perfection during an age that is coming soon (a version of millennialism);[42] and the absolute sovereignty of God, the nonexistence or severe limitation of human free will, and the inevitable triumph of God's plan of universal reconciliation."

    Now that sounds like the 144,000 gone wild. Completely unbiblical imo, yet severe limitation of human free will looks to point toward double predestination or even the interpretation of predestination limited to certain people as being considered part of universalism. A Lutheran belief at least.

    3) a)Liberal Christian Universalism views the Bible as an imperfect human document containing divine revelations,​
    sounds like what's passing for very mainstream christianity but is here clasified as universalism

    b) is not necessarily Trinitarian,​
    I have heard said that if you don't call them all persons then it's universalism but Jesus is a person the other two are spirit.


    c) and often downplays or rejects blood atonement theology in its view of the crucifixion of Jesus.​
    that's just nonchristian


    I can't understand why someone who believes that hellfire is a refining fire for purging of His children (totally biblical) and does not believe that God saves one and all gets clumped into universalism. Frankly they are not universalists and shouldn't be called one. Where I can see that others should.

    And why does someone who believes in the Father Son and Holy Spirit but refuses to call them Persons get called universalists as not believing in the trinity.

    I think that the pope should reconsider his inclusion of God saving everyone since it's unbiblical, and refine what it means to be
    a universalists. Labeling all of the above as universalists is hogwash when the views of some caught in the net are totally biblical, making some people marginal Christians for not sharing in others nonsalvic beliefs.​
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  16. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,513
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    Hi Cassia!
    Thank you for your input. I stopped responding to the thread because much information had been given and I have been reviewing the thread meditating and pondering on what was said by all the people pro and con. As you said, it seems to have a variety of pro view points, which is why it is taking me time to sort it all out. Blessings to you and your family.
     
  17. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Devoted to Truth Supporter

    +10,752
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    Thanks Alex and to you. I have much on the plate right now so I'm slowly reading thru the thread as time allows. I'm glad you started it tho because I've never really had the opportunity to look into it from others perspective. Should prove interesting.
     
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    I explained very clearly in my post exactly why I said krino in 1 Pet 4:6 is and should be translated "might be saved" Here is my post again.
    That is the agenda driven response, which ignores everything I posted and repeats your earlier argument.
    1 Peter 4:6
    (6) For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged [κρίνω/krino] according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
    The Greek word krino translated as "might be saved" is in the aorist, passive, subjunctive. The subjunctive mood is the mood of probability and potential. If Peter had meant to say everyone will be saved no matter what he would have written krino in the indicative mood as it is in Matt 7:2.

    Matthew 7:2
    (2) For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:[κρίνω/krino] and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
    Greek is an inflected language the precise meaning of a word in Greek is determined by its tense, voice and mood. In 1 Pet 4:6 krino is in the subjunctive mood, and is correctly translated "might be judged," in Matt 7:2 the same word is in the indicative mood and is correctly translated "shall be judged."
    .....Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors and omissions. Strong's is useful for determining which Hebrew/Greek word occurs where in the Bible but not at all useful in determining the tense, voice or mood of any word i.e. the correct translation.
    ETA: If you have some information from the early church fathers which relates to this point by all means post it here. I have two electronic editions of the standard ECF collection and can quickly look up anything as necessary.
     
  19. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,513
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    It is interesting. First, believers in universal salvation are only Christians. Second, they come from all manner of different backgrounds. Although I am thinking about what all sides are saying, my heart still says their belief is incorrect. I also believe in a post tribulation rapture, contrary to many believers. However, I hope I am wrong. I do not want to go through the tribulation either and will be delighted to find out I am wrong if they are right. Likewise with universal salvation. I have family members who died a Christless death. I would love to find out I am wrong. However, neither the Scriptures in my reading, nor my heart, agrees with universal salvation. Only the future will prove or disprove the doctrine.
     
  20. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    +4,893
    Anglican
    Married
    Not quite. This is what the response said:
    It's not that the Apostle's creed trumps scripture---it harmonizes with it (it's a foundational teaching of Christianity). It's your commentary on scripture that's in question.

    Apostle's Creed says:

    >>>I believe in God, the Father almighty,
    creator of heaven and earth.

    I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
    who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
    born of the Virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, died, and was buried;
    he descended to the dead.
    On the third day he rose again;
    he ascended into heaven,
    he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
    and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

    ETA: Posted prior to reading through all the recent posts.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...