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Featured What Does Universal Salvation Mean?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by AlexDTX, Jun 21, 2017.

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  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thomas was an unbeliever in Jesus' resurrection while he was refusing to believe in it unless he saw Him with His own eyes, put his hands in his side, etc. Sounds like a lot of atheists, agnostics, etc. When will they get the chance for salvation (seeing with their own eyes) that Thomas obtained?

    2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3 For what I received I passed onto you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

    Then what is your purpose or agenda regarding this thread you started on the fate of others?

    9 This is a trustworthy saying, worthy of full acceptance. 10 To this end we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. 11 Command and teach these things.…

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
  2. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you not believe that God is calling everyone? It sounds like you believe in Calvinism mixed with universal salvation. Of course Calvinism believes only the elect will be saved, not everyone. What I have found fascinating from the different adherents to universal salvation is that they come from all backgrounds of Christianity.

    In my understanding, Christ alone is predestined and is the plan of God for all. The invitation is given to all, or whosoever will, to abide in Christ.

    True, but we must respond. Just because an unregenerate does not hear the call because of the hardness of his heart, that does not mean the call was not made.


    I must protest vehemently. God is life and does not choose any to die. He did not choose for all to die in Adam, Adam chose death by not trusting God and we were all in Adam at that time. I say this based upon the Hebrews declaration that Levi was in Abraham when Abraham tithed to Melchizadek.

    I have seen no reason to accept that others will be born again after death in the age of his coming. I have seen nothing in the Bible to believe this nor in any of the reasons given in this thread.

    My view is that Paul already believed in the promise of the Messiah, but was blinded by the same doctrine of Messiah overthrowing the Roman government as the apostles were. So when he saw Jesus he realized his error just as Thomas did. By the way, there is no mention of any kind of horse or donkey that Paul rode on the road to Damascus in the New Testament. I always assumed that he was on one, and just because it is not mentioned doesn't mean he wasn't. But I find that small detail interesting.

    Yes, it is evident in your response.

    You are welcome. You are my brother in Christ. My definition of brotherhood is not based on these academic doctrines, but on recognizing a person by his words that he or she knows Jesus personally.
     
  3. RayJeena

    RayJeena Humble and proud of it. Supporter

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    But wouldn’t God, in His omniscience, have foreseen how things would go down with Adam? Yet He chose to proceed with setting the stage for it to go the way it did. So yes, He chose what came about. This is only a problem if one believes in ECT, however—He who got us into this will also get us out of it again.
     
  4. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    Why of course we do something. We kick and wiggle and twist....all the way to exiting...the re-birth canal. Just my opinion of course.

    I think that "dead in trespasses and sin" means we're under a 'death sentence' personally. And in being 'there' we are 'alive unto sin'. I also think 'free will' factors in the same way as when people, who are lost sheep, say; "I found Jesus"....the shepherd. ;)
     
  5. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It seems like there may be a bit of the sovereignty doctrine mixed in your belief in universal salvation. What I mean by "sovereignty" is that many believe God micromanages everything in creation. That is not so. God gave Adam responsibilities and we have responsibilities in Christ, too. The more I think about it, and the more I read what universal salvation adherents say, the more I begin to think some fear damnation because of the works mentality in the church culture. It is easier to believe that we are all going to be saved with no responsibility on our part. That is not true. It is true that the grace of God given to us through faith in the finished works requires nothing on our part but to believe to be saved, but we must believe until the end. It is like the early church believing that they were only saved when they were water baptized, so they put it off until their death bed (I am thinking of Constantine) to be sure they got into heaven. We have the responsibility to believe. If one dies without believing they are not saved.
    I think you are genuine Christian, RayJeena. You know that being dead in our transgressions and sin refers to our spirits. We are still alive in the soul and body, although the dying process begins at birth. It is in our soul that we make our choices, and that, while hardened in the unregenerate is still able to answer the call of God. Didn't you answer the call of God, too? I am sure you did.
     
  6. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am in agreement regarding the need to focus on this life, and the speculation about after death can be a distraction. There are several things I disagree with in your comment, but have no interest in pursuing since they are irrelevant to the topic.
     
  7. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This sounds like a strawman argument. Thomas believed Jesus was the Messiah who would redeem Israel. He did not believe, as you said, that Jesus was resurrected. However atheists deny the existence of God completely and agnostics by not making a decision are making the decision not to believe.
    When a person dies, it is out of my hands. I care about sharing Christ to them while they yet live. You know the reason for this thread. I have stated it several times. My interest is in understanding why you and others believe in universal salvation.
     
  8. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are trying to understand God's purposes from a limited human point of view. Personally, I believe omniscience is in the Father only, not the Logos or the Spirit. However, that is merely something I think, not something I can prove. I think God knows all the possible choices we can make, but does not specifically know the choices we will make. This is part of the complexity of life. When we make choices I think He also knows all the ramifications of those choices and knows how to work through them. Consider Jesus, in the book of Revelations, saying he gave Jezebel space to repent. He wants her to repent, but doesn't he know whether she will or not? I don't think he does. He drew a line in the sand for her. When the space ended her chance to repent was over.
     
  9. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    After they die.
     
  10. RayJeena

    RayJeena Humble and proud of it. Supporter

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    Well yes, I do believe God is Sovereign. :)

    How does this address the fact that Jesus used the turn of phrase “born” again? Did God micromanage our physical birth? If not, why would our spiritual re-birth be micromanaging on His part?

    I think what might potentially be troubling some is the fact that God’s authority really can override their free-willfulness wherever He sees fit. Human ego doesn’t like that idea.

    Human ego also likes to be able to take at least a little credit for getting oneself to heaven. Attempts to give the Lord all the credit can be shrugged off as simply refusal to take personal responsibility for one’s salvation. That sounds better (to the ego) than “God gets all the credit”.

    I would prefer to give God the glory. All of it. That's just how I roll.
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What strawman? I already posted the verses to you showing Thomas was as unsaved as the atheists and agnostics.


    I see. So while you state "The fate of others is His concern, not mine", here you are in a discussion about the "fate of others".
     
  12. RayJeena

    RayJeena Humble and proud of it. Supporter

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    Oh my goodness. Now this is a perfect example of how partialism has to downgrade God's Divinity in order to preserve itself.

    I'm sorry, but no. God is all knowing. He is Omniscient. He is... God.

    “Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

    “Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).

    “Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).

    “O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).

    “My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).

    “Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?” (Job 21:22).

    “He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).

    “Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?” (Job 37:16).

    “From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do” (Psalm 33:13-15).

    “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” (Romans 11:33).

    “Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

    “Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).

    “Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

    “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Matthew 10:29-30).​

    He's not a demigod, He's not a super-angel.
    He's God.
     
  13. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    If God were "calling, drawing, choosing, predestining, ordaining to believe"....then they would have come. BTW you never dealt with my "ordained to believe" verse/question. Seems pretty definite to me.

    Is Christ a "those" who was "called according to His purpose"?

    Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

    Hard heart comes out after accepting Him not before.

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

    Can't have partial omniscience. It's All part of plan A, Jesus wasn't a Plan B.

    Quoted often....just incompletely;

    EPH 2:7 that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his (SAVING) grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God -- 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.

    Who, in the 'coming ages' is God going to SHOW his SAVING GRACE to....if everyone got saved here on this side of the ages to come?

    Believing the Messiah was coming wasn't the litmus. Believing he was the messiah, was the litmus....just like Peter confessed and Jesus confirmed it wasn't Peter's free will;

    MAT 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon BarJona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

    And my response is backed with scripture.

    QUESTION; If the price for sin, or not accepting Jesus is ETERNAL HELL, then why isn't Jesus in there paying the price?
     
  14. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    RayJeena you are taking this discussion to another realm that is not the purpose of this thread. I recognize your point of view and do no wish to discuss this direction any further. Thank you for your comments.
     
  15. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you for your comments Clement. At this point I have no further interest in the discussion. My purpose was to understand why some Christians believed in universal salvation not to try and convince anyone not to believe in it. I said several times I would honestly agree or disagree but I will not continue in the debate. I have no interest in the debate. But I will say this: I am always leery of people who try to convince others of their position. Whatever the Spirit wants known does not need to be forced upon others.
     
  16. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And you are not.
     
  17. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have no more interest in the discussion. As I have said to others, I was making an inquiry into a topic, not asking for a debate. Because of the few of you who are continuing to argue for the case, I feel like I am talking to Jehovah Witnesses. If what you say is true it does not need constant arguing for and defending. Truth stands. If what you say comes from the Spirit, the Spirit will be the one to open my eyes. But that is not what I feel. Those of you who are still arguing the case remind me of homosexuals who want everyone to believe that their perversion is OK because in their hearts they know it is not. I have tried to be polite and and civil in the discussion, but now I feel like you all are trying to force me to believe by many little things that distract from the main point. I am not conversing any further. Thank you for your honest replies.
     
  18. RayJeena

    RayJeena Humble and proud of it. Supporter

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    Fascinating.
    Absolutely fascinating.
     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Certainly it is the Lord's Spirit that opens people's eyes to the truth. But unless a person's heart is open to the truth, it will fall on deaf ears.

    The love of Christ does constrain, i.e. force (2 Cor.5:14). It is the most powerful force in the universe.

    There are some things that are commanded to be taught (1 Tim.4:9-11), even if some people will no doubt feel that such teaching is being forced on them.

    He that is able to recieve, let him receive. It was apparent early on in this thread who was not ready.
     
  20. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    I am confused... if you are no longer interested in the discussion why do you continue to engage in the discussion?
     
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