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Featured What Does Universal Salvation Mean?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by AlexDTX, Jun 21, 2017.

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  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Jude 11 is a copying error my program's optical character recognition didn't properly read it. The original has Jude 1:7.
    I did not see you make any negative comments about Zodhiates when you quoted second hand stuff from your favorite uni source. I reviewed Zodhiates' article on "Aion" I can't find the words "time, short or long."
    When you quoted Zodhiates you did not refer to anything in the Sept. Do not demand of me or criticize me for what you have not and will not do yourself.
    You didn't say anything about any of this when you quoted Zodhiates from your biased tentmakers website. So when a little second hand snippet supports you the source is reliable but when it is found that it contradicts you, suddenly it is not reliable.

    From my previous post.

    • aionion, aionios – αιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal
    B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
    i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
    ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
    iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
    iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
    v. etc.
    SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
    • "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
    A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
    B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
    C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
    D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
    SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
     
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why not post it?

    Maybe because some books have many editions which add new info, so every edition is not going to be the same as other editions. Otherwise, there would be no need for new editions, would there?

     
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Excuse me? Have you ever posted any primary source? Nope! Everything you post is second hand, you have not verified anything in a primary source. I haven't seen any editions of anything from you. While you are conjuring up those imaginary editions, why don't you start by proving me wrong?

     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You posted his remarks re aionios. Why not aion also. If you wish to support your claim:

    "I reviewed Zodhiates' article on "Aion" I can't find the words "time, short or long."

    Or maybe you just need to read it again to see what i said was in it, if you missed it the first time.
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You didn't mention aion why should I? The point here was did Orgen say "time, short or long." as you said he did, about Aion. Put your cards on the table. I am dead sure that in the Aion article Zodhiates did not say the words "time, short or long." You do some real research, prove me wrong. I'll be waiting for your apology.2 of those words short & long do not occur in the aion article.
     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    He is allegedly quoted here saying: "Signifies time, short or long..."

    https://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/a/aion_world-age.html

    I'll be waiting for your alleged quote of what he said without those words.
     
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    There is the problem you have not even bothered to read the primary source Origen's De Principiis, that I linked to, to see what he said. I can't prove a negative! You made the claim that Origen said Aion also meant "time short and long." So the burden is on you to prove he said something like that. Your sources are dead wrong the words "short" and "long" do not occur anywhere in De Princ. I have just proved once again that your sources are not reliable they twist things to fit their agenda.
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You're losing it. The subject is Spiros Zodhiates saying aion ""Signifies time, short or long...", not Origen. See the last 7 posts. Not a single mention of Origen till your last post.
     
  9. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    I have a leather bound Spiros Zodhiates 'Greek Hebrew Study bible' and I'm looking at the "Lexical aids to the new testament" section, which reads exactly what your URL states. And at the end of his commentary;

    Aion primarily has physical meaning (time) but also ethical. Signifies time, short or long in its unbroken duration, all of which exists in the world under conditions of time, ethically, the cause and current of this world's affairs. It has acquired, like kosmos (2889), an unfavorable meaning (Lk. 16:8; 20:34; Eph. 2:2; Gal. 1:4)

    :oldthumbsup: :oldthumbsup:
     
  10. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    OK, so what about this verse then?

    Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
     
  11. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    If you said the Holy Spirit never said 'such and such' and then I quoted a verse with Jesus saying, 'such and such'...would you 'call' the difference? The devil and Satan just might have such a distinction for Lazarus. I know it does for me.
     
  12. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Satan and the "devil" may or may not be the same person or entity.

    In the same way, "everlasting fire" may be Hell...or it may be the Lake of Fire. I believe, given the rest of the Biblical text, and the origin of the of the word "hell," that the Lake of Fire is far, far more likely to be the destination of the "devil and his angels." Looking ahead at the Revelation, that is exactly where they all go, in Revelation 20:10, and the KJV translators did not identify it as "Hell."

    Anyway, what does quoting ONE verse prove? The Hell model leaves many doubts in my mind as I read the Bible, and compare text against text. The Salvation of All model leaves much, much fewer texts in conflict and harmonizes the Bible as a whole.
     
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  13. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    :oldthumbsup: That the "fire" may be Hell or the Lake is a distinction I've never heard of before Laz. Hmmm, good word IMO.

    But, since "death and hell" are "cast into the Lake..", I'm of the persuasion that the lake is 'bigger' than hell....really, 'much bigger' ;)

    Hebrews 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.
     
  14. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Okay, so I understand the temptation to go in the direction of compartmentalising the scriptures, but there is really no need to. Words always have the same meaning in scripture, and we just have to find out what they mean.

    Example: Fire

    Jer 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

    Psa 39:2 I was dumb with silence, I held my peace, even from good; and my sorrow was stirred.
    Psa 39:3 My heart was hot within me, while I was musing the fire burned: then spake I with my tongue,

    Jas 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
    Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

    Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
    Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

    Fire always means the same thing in scripture. The lake of fire is God's judgement.





     
  15. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I am compartmentalizing the scriptures - no, I try to harmonize them. As far as words always having the same meaning, well fire does not always mean the same thing, for there is:

    Literal fire, in the here-and-now world.

    God's fire, which we see first at the burning bush of Moses.

    Hellfire (for the sake of argument) in Hell, or the Lake of Fire.

    I am not compartmentalizing, trying to see God's fire as the same fire in the LoF, and it is not only consuming in the real world, as it killed the people of Sodom and other towns, but God also (and often) describes Himself as a refining, cleansing fire - and also as soap. For that matter, sulfur/brimstone was considered a cleansing agent in ancient times, so some of the props of Hell may not be applicable. Do you see that I am attempting a complete picture?
     
  16. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps you may already be familiar with this seeming contradiction. In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:4 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). To me it appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem.
     
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  17. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Hmm...I'm just wondering about your interpretation/conclusion regarding Jesus' descent into Hades.
    To whom did Jesus preach the gospel to in Hades - was it to those who died in belief or to those who died in unbelief? 1 Pet 3:19-20 states: "by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water." So it appears that Jesus preached to those in Hades who died in unbelief since they were the ones who were disobedient.

    The pertinent question would then be why would Jesus be preaching to the unbelieving and disobedient dead and what was his message?
    1 Pet 4:6 states: "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
    This verse plainly states that the gospel was preached to the dead - the disobedient dead according to 3:19. This directly contradicts the evangelical teaching that the opportunity to hear the gospel exists only in our lifetimes as Jesus preached the gospel to the disobedient dead in Hades. Since Jesus preached the gospel to the disobedient dead in Hades, would it not be reasonable to speculate or even conclude that He will also preach the gospel to those who end up in the lake of fire?

    And what was the result of Jesus' preaching the gospel in Hades?
    1 Pet 4:6 states that they were judged as men in the flesh (the standard by which all humankind is judged) in order that they would live in the spirit. Could this possibly mean that they were saved as a result?
    Eph 4:7-8 states: "But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.” This passage states that grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. Since we know that Christ's gift is immeasurable we can conclude that the grace that was given is also immeasurable. Immeasurable grace/gift would make perfect sense in the context of Jesus giving the disobedient who were already dead a chance to hear the gospel resulting in their salvation. In addition, Eph 4:8 is a reference to Ps 68:18 which states: "You ascended the high mount, leading captives in your train and receiving gifts from people, even from those who rebel against the Lord God’s abiding there." The captives whom Jesus received gifts from included the rebellious dead. It seems that the rebellious dead are no longer rebellious since even they gave gifts to Christ. "God exalted Him and gave to Him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus, every knee should bend, of those in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth" (Phil 2:9-10).
    Given the context of these passages, it seems to me that Jesus according to his purpose through the ages, does indeed eventually save all.
     
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  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    But for the fact that hell/the grave is never called prison and prison is never called hell/the grave anywhere in scripture.
    .....In the time of Noah Jesus was not preaching to the dead. The only ones who were saved were alive.
    .....Where did Jesus preach to souls in prison? What was Jesus' earthly ministry?

    Luke 4:18
    (18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    The Greek word αἰχμαλωτός/aixmalotos, translated "captives" literally means "prisoner of war."

    Since scripture does not say Jesus went to Hades, the question here is invalidated. So no it would not be reasonable to speculate or conclude anything based on that false premise.
     
  19. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    To believe what you write, one would have to discount the Apostle's Creed - one of the earliest teachings of the church. 1 Pet 4:6 clearly states that Jesus preached to those who are dead. It does not state that Jesus preached to those who were alive at the time of Noah; nor does it state that Jesus preached to those who were alive at the time of Jesus' earthly ministry.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    That is the agenda driven response, which ignores everything I posted and repeats your earlier argument.
    1 Peter 4:6
    (6) For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged [κρίνω/krino] according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
    The Greek word krino translated as "might be saved" is in the aorist, passive, subjunctive. The subjunctive mood is the mood of probability and potential. If Peter had meant to say everyone will be saved no matter what he would have written krino in the indicative mood as it is in Matt 7:2.
    Matthew 7:2
    (2) For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
     
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