What does the term "rapture" means to you - other than the dictionary definition of "upcatching"?

Douggg · Sep 3, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
I don't beleive that we could be raptured "anytime, before the end of this sermon," in the manner of sudden teleportation shown in the Left Behind series, as I've heard so often, and yet not a single pre-tribber ever mentioned the aspect of resurrection, because resurrection indicates we'll be dead first.

Oh, now you know when them currently alive in Christ will die before the mystery of the rapture takes place? No, you don't that sort of thing.

Also, you failed the challenge. I specifically asked you to summarize the whole chapter of 1 Cor. 15, not just those three verses. I think there's no much to discuss if you willingly choose to ignore the message from the whole chapter.

I did summarize Paul's message to believers of the rapture/resurrection event to take place. You are erroneously choosing to call Paul's message the resurrection, choosing not to acknowledge the mystery of what happens to the living in Christ at the time of the resurrection. You failed your own challenge.

The rapture is universally known to Christians worldwide because of Paul's message not only given in 1Corinthians15, but also in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 and 1Thessalonians5:9-11.

Also you are faiiing to do this...

1Thessalonains5:

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

1Thessalonians4:

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Jonathan_Gale · Sep 3, 2023

Douggg said:
I did summarize Paul's message to believers of the rapture/resurrection event to take place. You are erroneously choosing to call Paul's message the resurrection, choosing not to acknowledge the mystery of what happens to the living in Christ at the time of the resurrection. You failed your own challenge.

The rapture is universally known to Christians worldwide because of Paul's message not only given in 1Corinthians15, but also in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 and 1Thessalonians5:9-11.

Also you are faiiing to do this...

1Thessalonains5:

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

1Thessalonians4:

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Friend, I'm not being argumentative just to prove me right and you wrong. The mystery IS the final resurrection prophesied in Dan. 12:2 and Ez. 37:4-6. It's called a mystery because it was not clearly explained in the OT, and it was already a controversy - the Sedduccees didn't believe in it, and they challenged Jesus on that. Among the Corinthian church, some thought dead people were floating around as ghosts, which is still a prevailing superstition today. Apostle Paul demystified it in response to their confusion on this issue, that was the historic background.

And I did acknowledge the living - yes, there will be a small remnant, but I've said it many times that there's no guarantee for us to be among them, we hope for the best, but we have to prepare for the worst. In fact, in Matt. 24:29 Jesus told the disciples that his coming was "immediately AFTER the tribulation," that's literally post-trib. If you believe in pre-trib, then we won't be there. And if you argue for third coming or more coming, then that's definitely a heresy. The Lord only returns ONCE and the whole world will see it.

Douggg · Sep 3, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
Friend, I'm not being argumentative just to prove me right and you wrong. The mystery IS the final resurrection prophesied in Dan. 12:2 and Ez. 37:4-6. It's called a mystery because it was not clearly explained in the OT, and it was already a controversy - the Sedduccees didn't believe in it, and they challenged Jesus on that. Among the Corinthian church, some thought dead people were floating around as ghosts, which is still a prevailing superstition today. Apostle Paul demystified it in response to their confusion on this issue, that was the historic background.

Daniel 12:2 is speaking in very broad terms. There are several resurrections that are covered by Daniel 12:2.

1. the rapture/resurrection
2. the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints
3. the resurrection of the rest of dead after the millennium to stand before the Great White Throne Judgment.

In the gospels, Jesus said He was the resurrection.

The rapture is implied in Luke 21:34-36. The rapture is the means by which to avoid going through the great tribulation.

The rapture is also the redemption of the bodies of them in Christ, the living, at the time it happens. Which it is said, when you see those things (Jesus said were coming) begin to appear, know your redemption draws near - and to look up. The dead will not be looking up, as their bodies have decayed, but their souls in heaven with Jesus. The resurrection will be Jesus redeeming those bodies from the grave.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

So, since were are that parable of the fig tree generation, living in the end times, the encouragement is to look up our redemption draws near. We are very close. Don't be arguing over a tedious matter of whether a verb or noun.

We don't even know the language we will be speaking once in heaven. Everything is in God's Hands. Praise God for that !

Stand strong on the words Jesus speaks for they are spirit and they are life. John 6:63

Jonathan_Gale · Sep 3, 2023

Douggg said:
Daniel 12:2 is speaking in very broad terms. There are several resurrections that are covered by Daniel 12:2.

Nope, Daniel 12:2 is specifically referring to the final resurrections in Rev. 20. That's the only place where the unsaved are being resurrected in "everlasting comtempt."

Douggg · Sep 3, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
Nope, Daniel 12:2 is specifically referring to the final resurrections in Rev. 20. That's the only place where the unsaved are being resurrected in "everlasting comtempt."

Daniel 12:2 must include the final resurrection in Revelation 20 for the Great White Throne Judgment.

But Daniel 12:2 is not limit to that resurrection only. There will be the resurrection of the saved in Christ in the rapture/resurrection event. And also of the Great Tribulation Martyrs at the time of Jesus's return at the beginning of the millennium.

Daniel will be one of those resurrected at the time of the rapture/resurrection. When Jesus went into the place of the dead during the three days, he preached the gospel and set the captives free- their souls when to heaven.

Daniel 12:13, to Daniel....

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Jonathan_Gale · Sep 3, 2023

Douggg said:
Daniel 12:2 must include the final resurrection in Revelation 20 for the Great White Throne Judgment.

But Daniel 12:2 is not limit to that resurrection only. There will be the resurrection of the saved in Christ in the rapture/resurrection event. And also of the Great Tribulation Martyrs at the time of Jesus's return at the beginning of the millennium.

Daniel will be one of those resurrected at the time of the rapture/resurrection. When Jesus went into the place of the dead during the three days, he preached the gospel and set the captives free- their souls when to heaven.

Daniel 12:13, to Daniel....

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

That's because others are resurrected to everlasting life when Christ returns, known as the First Resurrection.

Douggg · Sep 3, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
That's because others are resurrected to everlasting life when Christ returns, known as the First Resurrection.

The First Resurrection (of the millennium) is the resurrection of the Great Tribulation martyrs.

Jonathan_Gale · Sep 3, 2023

Douggg said:
The First Resurrection (of the millennium) is the resurrection of the Great Tribulation martyrs.

Or the complete body of Christ, the great multitude in heaven, all God's people, near and far, past and present.

Douggg · Sep 4, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
Or the complete body of Christ, the great multitude in heaven, all God's people, near and far, past and present.

The great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7 are the souls of the Great Tribulation martyrs.

Jonathan_Gale · Sep 4, 2023

Douggg said:
The great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7 are the souls of the Great Tribulation martyrs.

I doubt it. This reading would exclude all previous generations of faithful and devout believers in history. If you and I pass away prematurely before the great tribulation, we would be excluded from this great multitude.

Douggg · Sep 4, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
I doubt it. This reading would exclude all previous generations of faithful and devout believers in history. If you and I pass away prematurely before the great tribulation, we would be excluded from this great multitude.

There are two ways not to be a part of the great multitude of souls coming out of the great tribulaton in Revelation 7. One is as you say. The other is to be taken in the rapture/resurrection event before the great tribulation begins.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The great multitude in Revelation 7 are the souls of the Great Tribulation martyrs. When Jesus returns, their bodies will be resurrected and reunited with their souls, called the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Johnathan, the manner in which you construct your posts, I have no idea of what you are talking about because you don't reference or copy and paste the verses that support whatever it is you are saying.

Jonathan_Gale · Sep 4, 2023

Douggg said:
There are two ways not to be a part of the great multitude of souls coming out of the great tribulaton in Revelation 7. One is as you say. The other is to be taken in the rapture/resurrection event before the great tribulation begins.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The great multitude in Revelation 7 are the souls of the Great Tribulation martyrs. When Jesus returns, their bodies will be resurrected and reunited with their souls, called the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Johnathan, the manner in which you construct your posts, I have no idea of what you are talking about because you don't reference or copy and paste the verses that support whatever it is you are saying.

I thought you should've been familiar with these references. I didn't memorize all of them, but I know the general narrative and the contexts of these key verses. It breaks my train of thought when I have to constantly go to biblegateway.com to copy paste these verses, you know. And it also feels frustrasting and irritating to have to repeat yourself.

Jonathan_Gale · Sep 4, 2023

Douggg said:
There are two ways not to be a part of the great multitude of souls coming out of the great tribulaton in Revelation 7. One is as you say. The other is to be taken in the rapture/resurrection event before the great tribulation begins.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The great multitude in Revelation 7 are the souls of the Great Tribulation martyrs. When Jesus returns, their bodies will be resurrected and reunited with their souls, called the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Johnathan, the manner in which you construct your posts, I have no idea of what you are talking about because you don't reference or copy and paste the verses that support whatever it is you are saying.

I just wanna jump out of the rabbit hole for a little bit, don't you think all these squabbling about this rapture doctrine - which is developed from one single verse of 1 Thess. 4:17 - is a distraction? In traditional biblical view based on the Torah, God wants man to enjoy life and steward the earth, our real hope is salvation through Christ in THIS life, not the next. Whatever manner the rapture/resurrection will unfold, leave it to God. It's a part of the three autumn feasts, when the trumpet blows, that's the signal for gathering in the feast of Trumpet, that's the first day of Tishri; and on the 10th day, Christ will return on the Day of Atonement, which was foretold in Isaiah 61. It was all laid out on God's schedule, there's nothing we can do to change that, what we can do is wash our garment white in the blood of Christ.

Douggg · Sep 4, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
I thought you should've been familiar with these references. I didn't memorize all of them, but I know the general narrative and the contexts of these key verses. It breaks my train of thought when I have to constantly go to biblegateway.com to copy paste these verses, you know. And it also feels frustrasting and irritating to have to repeat yourself.

The content of your posts does not make it apparent what verses you are talking about.

I use this source to copy and paste from...

Revelation chapter 20 KJV (King James Version)

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

Douggg · Sep 4, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
I just wanna jump out of the rabbit hole for a little bit, don't you think all these squabbling about this rapture doctrine - which is developed from one single verse of 1 Thess. 4:17 - is a distraction? In traditional biblical view based on the Torah, God wants man to enjoy life and steward the earth, our real hope is salvation through Christ in THIS life, not the next.

No. The distraction is living in this world.

Jonathan_Gale · Sep 4, 2023

Douggg said:
No. The distraction is living in this world.

Our God is the God of the living, not the dead.

Jonathan_Gale · Sep 4, 2023

Douggg said:
The content of your posts does not make it apparent what verses you are talking about.

I use this source to copy and paste from...

Revelation chapter 20 KJV (King James Version)

Revelation chapter 20 KJV (King James Version)

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

All right, I'll keep that in mind, but to be fair, I don't think there's any other verses that mention this Great Multitude.

Douggg · Sep 4, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
Our God is the God of the living, not the dead.

Again, copy and paste the verse in its context.

Jonathan_Gale · Sep 4, 2023

Douggg said:
Again, copy and paste the verse in its context.

Matt. 22:32. In that context, the Sadducees presumed that God is the God of the dead, that’s the predominant view of God in most religions, including many Christians who only think about meet God in the afterlife, but God is sovereign over this world.

Douggg · Sep 4, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
Matt. 22:32. In that context, the Sadducees presumed that God is the God of the dead, that’s the predominant view of God in most religions, including many Christians who only think about meet God in the afterlife, but God is sovereign over this world.

The point Jesus was making that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob - righteous men of God - although they were/are all three physically dead, - differently, spiritually - their souls - are alive.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob - Daniel - will take part in the rapture/resurrection event.... that will take place before the great tribulation begins.

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way [Daniel] till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot [which includes Abraham, Isaac, Jacob] at the end of the days.

What does the term "rapture" means to you - other than the dictionary definition of "upcatching"?

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