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What does the resurrection of Jesus actually prove?

Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by Theo Barnsley, Feb 23, 2019.

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  1. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    If you are truly looking to find out if the Bible states that Jesus is the promised Messiah from Old Testament prophesies. Then compare what Messianic Jews say as to Non Believing Jews.
    You seem to hold the Non believing Jew and their views, as the truth.
    And even compare what the contemporary Judaism says with Judaism believed at around the time of Jesus.
    Here is a Messianic Jew book look through it.
    https://www.amazon.com/Messianic-Christology-Arnold-Fruchtenbaum/dp/091486307X

    Or you are just looking to argue a point do not consult Messianic Jews
     
  2. Theo Barnsley

    Theo Barnsley Member

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    I dont need to consult any Jews, messianic or otherwise. Just because there are lots of different sects of Jews who cant agree on much of scripture isnt surprising at all, as there are hundreds of Christian sects who cant agree on scripture.

    All I need to do is quote the 21 verses direct from the O.T., which I have already quoted several times, & that you apparently have no answer for, which clearly & unambiguously state that there is ONLY ONE GOD, & NO OTHER, no Jesus, no trinity, just ONE single entity.

    They are very very clear in what they say. IF you believe the Old Testament is truthful, you cannot deny what they say. They require no fancy interpretation, that can be interpreted many different ways by many different people, or textual gymnastics, or taking passages out of context by claiming that this passage or that passage is talking about Jesus when it isnt!

    There is really only ONE way to interpret them, which is why you keep trying to ignore that they even exist in all of your replies to me, because you have never once referenced even ONE of the passages in any of your replies. If you close your eyes for long enough, & block your ears, you hope that they will just disapear & not exist any more, but they ARE STILL THERE!

    There WERE other questions I asked which you also made no attempt at answering (such as why is Jesus not a false prophet when he stated he would return in 'the generation of the disciples'), presumably because you have the same stumbling block as you do with the 21 passages quoted.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
  3. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    Actually you do need the non believing Jews, because when i post verses from the Bible saying God has a son, you used non believing Jews in an reply to my post.
     
  4. Theo Barnsley

    Theo Barnsley Member

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    It doesn't matter what different Jews believe in, because neither you or I am ever going to know in our lifetime which Jew is correct. One sect may be right & the other sect wrong, or they might BOTH be wrong.

    I don't have a horse in either race. I am only interested in HONESTLY looking at ALL the evidence & seeing where it leads to. After examing all the evidence from ALL sides my interpretation of the evidence is that Jesus cannot be the Messiah prophesied in the O.T., based purely on an honest scriptural reading. There are so many holes in the Christian argument, & so many flaws in the reasoning, that I cannot honestly agree with the Christian view that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah.

    What matters is what is actually written in the text that you can actually interpret with simply reading the verse, & you or I not being able to put our own spin on it or interpretation on it.

    It doesn't matter how many verses you can find in the bible that 'APPEAR' to prophesy Jesus. The simple fact is that Jesus did NOT fulfil the prophecies expected of the Messiah, that much is very clear, I think you have already agreed to that.

    The resurrection and the 2nd coming is the invention of the followers of Jesus to get around that simple FACT. Jesus HAS to come again, to fulfil the prophecies he never fulfilled in the 1st place. However there is nothing in Old Testament scripture that points to the Messiah having to die & resurrect to fulfil any prophecy. So if you point out a passage and say that this passage describes Jesus, so Jesus is the Messiah, you don't know if it is actually describing Jesus or somebody else who has not yet come, who WILL fulfil the prophecies of the Messiah.

    In many instances what Christians point to as describing the messiah or Jesus actually describes neither, because many of the 'prophecies' they point to have nothing at all to do with the Messiah (many passages they ascribe to Jesus are talking about the Nation of Israel, because the nation of Israel is described as 'Gods Son' in many passages).

    So yes, God does have a son in the Old Testament, it is the nation of Israel, NOT another supernatural entity that is equal with God. If that was the case, why is God trying to deceive everybody by saying over & over & over that there is ONLY Yahweh, & NOBODY else? Why doesn't god just simply say in the Old Testament, "there is Yahweh, oh & by the way, I also have a son." Why not just spell it out so that it is totally clear, & not open to interpretation! The fact is, God WAS very very clear, there is ONLY him, & NOBODY else!

    Your problem is that you are totally invested in believing in Jesus, & you probably ONLY look at the evidence which supports YOUR worldview, & reject all other evidence. So your mind cannot accept ANY truth or evidence that might say that Jesus was NOT the messiah. You have programmed your mind to do this.

    You still have not attempted to answer the question regarding the 21 passages I quoted, which are direct from scripture, nor have you attempted to answer the question regarding Jesus saying he would return in the generation of the disciples.

    You have no answer for either question. The fact that you cannot answer either question SHOULD send off alarm bells in your mind, that what you are believing MAY NOT BE TRUE. It probably already has, but you are then quickly rejecting the idea to come back to the 'safety' that Jesus is the Messiah.

    It is possible when it comes to judgement day (if there is one), & you are facing god he may say to you, "why did you continue to believe in a false god? I sent a messenger to challenge you with scripture on christianforums, but you rejected it. The scripture clearly tells you that there is only Yahweh & nobody else. Jesus was a false messiah who fulfilled no prophecy, & you have been worshipping a false god. I do not know you"

    Now I don't believe what I just wrote above, but as they say, God sometimes works in mysterious ways!
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
  5. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    Who has ascended into heaven, or descended?
    Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
    Who has bound the waters in a garment?
    Who has established all the ends of the earth?
    What is His name, and what is His Son’s name,
    If you know?
     
  6. Theo Barnsley

    Theo Barnsley Member

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    What verses are you referring to?
     
  7. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    Proverbs 30
     
  8. Theo Barnsley

    Theo Barnsley Member

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    Before I answer the question regarding Proverbs 30, I will ask you a question.

    If I tell you that one day I am going to run as a candidate for the President of the United States, & I will become president, does this make me the president of the United States?

    I think your answer will have to be NO. I also think you would say that in order for me to be the president of the United States, that I have to achieve ALL of the following: 1. Run for the candidacy. 2. Be preselected as a candidate & 3. Actually win the presidential election by a vote of the people of the United States. That is the minimum that I will have to do to be legally called the President of the United States.

    So don't you think that it is absurd to call Jesus the Messiah BEFORE he fulfils the prophecy expected of the Messiah? Saying that he WILL fulfil the prophecy in the future is no different to my saying that I WILL be President of the USA in the future, it might never happen (almost certainly won't). So Jesus is obviously NOT The Messiah UNTIL he actually fulfils the prophecy.

    This is the prophecy the Messiah was expected to fulfil:
    A shoot shall come out from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots. The spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the L-rd. His delight shall be in the fear of the Lord. He shall not judge by what his eyes see, or decide by what his ears hear. But with righteousness he shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked. Righteousness will be the belt around his waist, and faith-fullness the belt around his loins. The wolf shall live with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the kid, the calf and the lion and the fatling together and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze, their young shall lie down together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put its hand on the adder’s den. They will not hurt or destroy on all My holy mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.Isaiah 11:1-9

    The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will dwell securely. And this is name by which he will be called: The Lord is our righteousness. Jeremiah 23:5-6 (See also Jeremiah 30:7-10 and 33:14-18)

    My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes. They shall live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, in which your ancestors lived; they and their children and their children’s children shall live there forever. And My servant David shall be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will bless them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary among them forevermore. My dwelling place shall be with them; I will be their G-d and they shall be My people. Then shall the nations know that I the L-rd, sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is among them forever-more. Ezekiel 37:24-28 (See also Ezekiel 34:23-31)

    The Mountain of the Lord
    2 This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:
    2 In the last days
    the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
    as the highest of the mountains;
    it will be exalted above the hills,
    and all nations will stream to it.
    3 Many peoples will come and say,
    “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
    to the temple of the God of Jacob.
    He will teach us his ways,
    so that we may walk in his paths.”
    The law will go out from Zion,
    the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
    4 He will judge between the nations
    and will settle disputes for many peoples.
    They will beat their swords into plowshares
    and their spears into pruning hooks.
    Nation will not take up sword against nation,
    nor will they train for war anymore.


    Notice that NONE of the prophecies says that the Messiah will be crucified & resurrected. None of the prophecies claims that the Messiah will be God himself. If any of the prophecies did claim that the Messiah will be crucified & resurrected, you might be able to say that Jesus PARTLY fulfilled prophecy, however, he hasn't fulfilled ANY prophecy expected of the Messiah.

    But even partly fulfilling prophecy still doesn't prove he is the Messiah, any more than me 1. Running for the candidacy & 2. Being preselected as a candidate for the President of the USA qualifies me as the President. I still have to achieve the 3rd part, which is actually being elected as President by the people. Until I DO achieve the 3rd part, it leaves open the possibility that SOMEBODY ELSE will win the Presidential election, & I NEVER become president (just as Hilary Clinton has never become president of the USA, even though she fulfilled no. 1, no 2, & even part of no. 3 because she won the popular vote, but not the electoral college). I could claim that Hilary Clinton will be resurected politically, & return in the future to fulfill the 3rd requirement, but she still isnt the President until & unless she DOES return & fulfil the 3rd requirement.

    Clearly, Jesus cannot be The Messiah, UNTIL he fulfils ALL the prophecy, because that still leaves open the possibility that SOMEBODY ELSE will come along & fulfill ALL of the prophecy.

    Further, if you accept that the Old Testament is the word of god, then by calling Jesus God & the Messiah, you are basically saying that Yahweh is a deceiver & a liar. You are basically saying that God deliberately deceived the Jews, so that most of them would not be saved, by telling them over & over & over, that Yahweh is the only one, & that there is no other, so they would never accept a messiah who claims to be god.

    However not even ONCE in the whole of the O.T., did god clearly & unambiguously say that God is Yahweh, The Son & the Holy Spirit. Don't you think it odd, that God would want to keep this a huge secret until the New Testament came along, & constantly lie to the Jews until that point about his true identity? Don't you also think it odd, that if God was giving prophecy about the Messiah, that he would not bother to mention even once, clearly & unambiguously that the Messiah would be tortured & crucified, & then resurrected, & have to return again to fulfil the rest of prophecy?

    So if Yahweh is a liar & a deceiver, then even if Jesus IS the Messiah, why even bother, because God clearly cannot be trusted, as he is prepared to lie & deceive, & we have no idea what else he is lying a deceiving us about. In this case, the Messiah means nothing, because we cannot trust what his true purpose was.

    Who is more likely to be the liar & deceiver, Yahweh of the Old Testament, or Jesus who has yet to fulfil ANY prophecy, or his disciples who may have misinterpreted who Jesus was?

    Jesus has also PROVEN that he is NOT the real Messiah, by claiming that he would return to fulfil prophecy in 'the generation of the disciples' some of whom 'would not taste death' until his return. This proves beyond doubt that Jesus was not the messiah, & that he won't be returning in the future. I could give more evidence that Jesus is unlikely to be the Messiah, however, what I have already given should be sufficient.

    Regarding Proverbs 30:
    Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
    Whose hands have gathered up the wind?
    Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak?
    Who has established all the ends of the earth?
    What is his name, and what is the name of his son?
    Surely you know!

    His name is the god Yaweh, & his son is the nation of Israel. Just as everywhere else in the O.T. where the nation of Israel is referred to as Gods Son! Again, you want to take very obscure passages in the O.T. & try to insert the name of Jesus where there is no evidence that that is what the phrase refers to at all, while at the same time ignoring very very CLEAR passages, that make it clear that jesus is NOT the true messiah, where no creative interpretation is required at all!
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
  9. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    Before the nation of Israel existed Genesis 3:15 states that the women's seed (singular) not seeds (Israel).
    Then it is seen in Genesis 4:1 where a literal reading on the Hebrew states: And the man knew Eve his wife, she conceived and bare Cain and said "I have gotton a man: Jehovah

    Eve thought that Cain (her first child) was the promised God/man. Then next verse shows she realized her mistake, she names her second child Abel meaning vanity.

    Then Genesis 22:18 again seed is singular. When in the Abrahamic Covenant when seed is used in its collective sense, this always refers to the nation of Israel (your seed will be as the stars of the sand) when used as an absolute singular, it is a reference to God's son The Messiah.
     
  10. Theo Barnsley

    Theo Barnsley Member

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    Your mind is working overtime again, desperately searching for any texts in the O.T. to support your case.

    Regarding seed & seeds, I have never mentioned seed as a term descriing anything in this entire thread. I dont think I even entioned the word seed before now. And who says when seed is used singularit is a reference to Gods son the Messiah. Show me one verse in the O.T. where it makes this clear (without you inventing your own interpretation).

    Genesis 3:1, directly from Hebrew translates as:
    Now the man knew his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, and she said, "I have acquired a man with the Lord."
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 4 (Parshah Bereishit)

    This is correctly interpreted as: "I have acquired a man with [the help of] the Lord". This is obvious even from the Christian translations of the text. She did not think the child was GOD as you claim, but of course it helps support your Jesus hypothesis if you convince yourself (or others) that it does!

    Again, to support your position, you are forced to twist the meaning of verses to try to support your case. If you read the O.T. honestly, without constantly changing the meaning of the text to try to support your belief in Jesus as the Messiah, the truth will emerge. However I suspect it is not the truth you are interested in.
     
  11. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    In the Hebrew the verse is as i posted it, when in English "the help of" has been added. That is a simple fact.
     
  12. Theo Barnsley

    Theo Barnsley Member

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    I quoted the verse directly from the Jewish translation, which was without "the help of" added.

    The words "the help of" was added in a christian translation.

    However the translation you gave, does NOT match the Jewish translation, which is:
    Now the man knew his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, and she said, "I have acquired a man with the Lord."

    this can in no way be translated the way that you tried to claim, which is to translate it as she believed her son to actually be Jehovah.

    No Jew translates it that way, & it appears that not many christians do either, so you are pretty much on your own with the interpretation you gave. Again, it seems to be more desperation to try to find Jesus in every corner of the bible, where he does not exist!
     
  13. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    וְהָאָדָם, יָדַע אֶת-חַוָּה אִשְׁתּוֹ; וַתַּהַר, וַתֵּלֶד
    אֶת-קַיִן, וַתֹּאמֶר, קָנִיתִי אִישׁ אֶת-יְהוָה.

    the bold part:
    The lord man acquired or acquired man The Lord
     
  14. Grumman Tomcat

    Grumman Tomcat The LORD is my Pilot Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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  15. Grumman Tomcat

    Grumman Tomcat The LORD is my Pilot Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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