What does the resurrection of Jesus actually prove?

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Kerensa

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I've haven't counted the exactly number in the book of Acts that were but OK. But these people were led by God and did these things In The Name of Jesus not in their own names.

Two of the greatest Hebrew prophets, Elijah and Elisha, also raised children from the dead in the Old Testament (1 Kings 17:17-24 and 2 Kings 4:18-37).
 
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Theo Barnsley

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Something is like to add to my post and forgot. We know that Jesus rose himself from the dead because otherwise what happened to his body? His followers couldn't have stolen the body because they had trained Roman soldiers guarding his tomb. His body just "disappeared". So Jesus had to of rose himself from the dead. There's no other explanation. Unless you want to make the argument that he never existed and the story is false. But I won't go off topic on that one.
The problem with people who write religious texts is that they are prone to exagerate, embellish, or even lie about the subject matter.

Do you believe that everything in the Quran & other Islamic texts written around the time about the prophet mohammed is all true? I would guess that you dont, but try telling that to a devout muslim!

The guards guarding the tomb is mentioned by only ONE of the gospel writers, which is Mathew. Do you think that it is possible that Mathew might have embellished the story by adding the guards to get around the problem of people saying that the body was stolen or moved by the disciples?

There are a no. of explanations for the missing body:
1: The body was never placed in the tomb in the 1st place. Maybe the body was left on the cross to rot & be eaten by animals, which was the usual fate of the bodies of those that were crucified.

You will retort that that is not possible, because there are 4 independent witnesses, but are there really? It is believed by many scholars that Mark was the 1st gospel written, & that Mathew, Luke & John used the material from Mark to construct their narratives. This would explain the close agreement on the burial, but only 1 actual original narrative. However there is no way of knowing if the original narrative actually happened as written, or was a made up story.

2. The body WAS taken from the cross (unusual, because the usual practise was to leave the bodies on the cross. Why would Pilate allow Jesus body to be taken from the cross in the 1st place. Pilate had no reason to do this.) It was placed in a tomb, but then later moved by somebody. Even if guards WERE placed at the tomb as claimed by Mathew, this did not happen until the next day, which gives plenty of time for somebody to move the body. If somebody was going to move a body, they would want to do it as soon as possible before the body deteriorated too much.

3. The body was placed in a tomb, but the witnesses were mistaken as to which tomb the body was placed in. There may have been a no. of tombs in the area. As the witnesses were probably distraught & not thinking clearly, & the light may not have been good at the time the body was placed, it is understandable that they may be mistaken about the tomb the body was placed in.

4. The body never went missing at all & was still in the tomb, but the apostles claimed that it gone missing as they had to construct the narrative of the resurection. The narrative of the resurection was necessary to explain why jesus had NOT fulfilled any prophecies of the messiah, so he had to be resurected & then return to fulfill the prophecies.

Since it was at least 50 days after the crucifiction before they started preaching this (according to the gospels only, it may have been much longer), by then the body would have degraded enough to be unrecognisable, so nobody could prove that any body in the tomb was that of jesus, even if they knew which tomb he had been placed in. There was no forensics back then that would enable anybody to prove that a degraded body was a particular person.

5. The authors of the gospels are simply lying & writing fiction.

So there are five perfectly plausible explanations as to why the body could be proposed to be missing. Some people might be able to come up wth other explanations as well.

I dont expect you to agree with any of the explanations, just as no committed muslim is going to agree with any explanation that you might put forward to explain why any particular story about the prophet mohammed that they believe in could be false.

I dont have any vested interest in believing what anything in the bible says. I will go where the evidence leads, but it has to be pretty good evidence.

If I am prrepared to believe anything on faith, then I could be led to believe ANY religion on faith, & people often do, which is why there are a multitude of religions, & multitude of denominations of those religions on the planet.

For any god to expect anybody to believe something on faith, without providing verifiable evidence, seems to be plainly ridiculous to me, & I dont think that any worthwhile god WOULD expect people to believe in him purely on faith.
 
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Theo Barnsley

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Ultimately, it comes down to faith. None of the miraculous or supernatural events in either the Old or New Testaments can be proven. You either believe them on faith, or you don't. I'm like you. I cannot sincerely believe anything really occurred that my entire life experience tells me is impossible. But that's the essence of what faith is. As Voltaire said, faith is believing in the impossible, precisely because it is impossible. :oldthumbsup:
Why SHOULD any god expect people to believe something on 'faith'. Muslims believe what they believe on faith, hindus believe what they believe on faith, bhuddists believe what they believe on faith, mormons believe what they believe on faith. And many sincerely believe it, & believe that they have been led to their belief by god.

What is the point on faith, when it can lead you anywhere? A decent god would provide irrefutable evidence, not expect you to believe on 'faith', because all faith does is leads to a multitude of religions, & a multitude of denominations of those religions, on which nobody agrees.

I dont propose to believe anything on faith! Show me the evidence that proves that your religion is the correct religion, & not some other religion, & I will see where the evidence leads. Without evidence, picking the correct religion is like buying a lottery ticket, & hoping you have bought the winning ticket.
 
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Theo Barnsley

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When Adam sinned God chose (because he is God) the mode of redemption for mankind and God chose blood that is seen after Adams and Eves sin, God made a covering for Adam and Eve.
It is also interesting that Adam and Eve had made their own covering but God rejected their work and covering. To me that is and example of you can not save yourself, it is God eternal life (the tunic of skin) that one must have not your work of fig leaves.

And for God to make that tunic blood had to be shed (an Animal was killed)

Genesis
Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.
Because god is god, & he is supposed to be the most powerful being that is capable of creating the whole universe & everything in it, then god could have chosen any method of redemption. In fact, god could have chosen not to condemn mankind at all, so that they dont require redemption.

It seems to be ridiculous to me, that a powerful creator god would go to all the trouble of creating a perfect world, with sinless beings in it, & then deliberately plant a tree in the garden that coulld apparently cause his creation to sin, & deliberately allow a talking serpent to free range of the garden to decieve, & then blame mankind when they do what god MUST have known that they WOULD do, because god knows everything beforehand, right?

At the very least he could have put a fence around the tree!
And remember, these were innocent people , who did not yet know right from wrong. So how could they POSSIBLY know, that eating from the tree COULD be wrong!

The only reason I can think of that a god would design things this way, is because this god WANTS man to fail, this god WANTS an excuse to curse mankind, this god WANTS an excuse to destroy all of mankind by sending a flood, this god WANTS to see all of mankind, & all of his other creation such as the animals suffer (what they did to hurt god I dont know).

I dont see any 'loving' god in this, IF the adam & eve story is true. I see a megolomaniacic, psycopathic god, who is having a good time creating & destroying things!

Would i want to worship that type of god for all of eternity?
 
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d taylor

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Why SHOULD any god expect people to believe something on 'faith'. Muslims believe what they believe on faith, hindus believe what they believe on faith, bhuddists believe what they believe on faith, mormons believe what they believe on faith. And many sincerely believe it, & believe that they have been led to their belief by god.

What is the point on faith, when it can lead you anywhere? A decent god would provide irrefutable evidence, not expect you to believe on 'faith', because all faith does is leads to a multitude of religions, & a multitude of denominations of those religions, on which nobody agrees.

I dont propose to believe anything on faith! Show me the evidence that proves that your religion is the correct religion, & not some other religion, & I will see where the evidence leads. Without evidence, picking the correct religion is like buying a lottery ticket, & hoping you have bought the winning ticket.

If you are trying to figure out all that happened in Genesis or the time before Genesis the information is just not there. Some is given in the Bible, but that would be a long back and fourth and a lot of putting together areas of the Bible. Which has been done but that would again, only bring about more questions of why this and why that that really be never ending.

All religions have a god or gods they rely on for truth. Islam - Mohammad, buddist - the buda, etc...

Now i have not studied these religions in any depth, but i do not believe any of these religions state that eternal life is offered from their god, or that their god is eternal life. they may say a person can gain eternal life by doing certain things not sure.

But when Jesus came He stated that He is life (eternal) and eternal life is found in Him. And a person is given that eternal life, not by doing things, but by believing That Jesus is eternal life and trusting in Him for His gift of His Eternal Life and noting else can accomplish the receiving of eternal life. and that is it that is the message of the Bible.

Why is Bible above all others, because something so eternal and important and made complicated by the world. In the Bible, is made so simple to receive it.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

does any other god from other religion claim this that eternal life is in them and they are eternal life.
 
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Theo Barnsley

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If you are trying to figure out all that happened in Genesis or the time before Genesis the information is just not there. Some is given in the Bible, but that would be a long back and fourth and a lot of putting together areas of the Bible. Which has been done but that would again, only bring about more questions of why this and why that that really be never ending.

All religions have a god or gods they rely on for truth. Islam - Mohammad, buddist - the buda, etc...

Now i have not studied these religions in any depth, but i do not believe any of these religions state that eternal life is offered from their god, or that their god is eternal life. they may say a person can gain eternal life by doing certain things not sure.

But when Jesus came He stated that He is life (eternal) and eternal life is found in Him. And a person is given that eternal life, not by doing things, but by believing That Jesus is eternal life and trusting in Him for His gift of His Eternal Life and noting else can accomplish the receiving of eternal life. and that is it that is the message of the Bible.

Why is Bible above all others, because something so eternal and important and made complicated by the world. In the Bible, is made so simple to receive it.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

does any other god from other religion claim this that eternal life is in them and they are eternal life.
Before I take apart your post, I did want to thank you for at least trying to answer some of the question. Your answers are unlikely to convince me, but at least some of them are informative.

I dont believe that the Buddhist religion has a god, although Buddhists do seem to worship the Buddha as a god. I dont know if this was ever intended in the original religion, however that is what it has evolved into. Also Buddhism dosnt offer eternal life as such, you apparently reincarnate into a higher or lower life form, depending on your deeds in the last life. The ultimate state however is nothingness, which I take to mean what science believes already happens when we die, just nothing. Buddhists believe that only by breaking the cycle of constant reincarnation, & entering into a state of nothingness, can suffering cease.

So this brings me to the question of eternal life. Why is eternal life even desirable? Of course once alive, most of us want to continue to live as long as possible, but why is life better than nothingness?

It is hard for most of us to imagine non-existance, because we can only remember, & have only ever experienced life. So while eternal life might seem like a good thing, is it really? Eternity is a bloody long time. And suppose you make it into heaven, but it is really nothing like you imagined. There is no escape, ever!If god is even half as tyranical as he comes across in the bible, do I want to spend eternity under his control, worshipping him every day?

This reminds me of a quote by Christopher Hitchens, in which he compared North Korea with the christian religion:
“Religion is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life, before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead. A celestial North Korea. Who wants this to be true? Who but a slave desires such a ghastly fate? I've been to North Korea. It has a dead man as its president, Kim Jong-Il is only head of the party and head of the army. He's not head of the state. That office belongs to his deceased father, Kim Il-Sung. It's a necrocracy, a thanatocracy. It's one short of a trinity I might add. The son is the reincarnation of the father. It is the most revolting and utter and absolute and heartless tyranny the human species has ever evolved. But at least you can f#$%ing die and leave North Korea!”
― Christopher Hitchens

Regarding what Jesus said or didnt say in the bible, we have no proof that Jesus actually said any of the things that are reported in the gospels.

He may have said some things, & not others. As the gospels are written, the later they are written the more divine jesus apparently comes as the religion has developed. Hence in the gospel of Mark, Jesus is not seen as god, however by the Gospel of John, jesus is quoted as saying things that were never quoted in the other gospels, & by this time, Jesus is actually equating himself fully with god. the gospel of John was written 40 to 60 years after the gospel of Mark, & reflects the change in thinking of its followers, that Jesus is actually god in the form of a man.

So I have no evidence that by believing in jesus I will get eternal life, & even if I did get eternal life, do I really WANT eternal life. Even reincarnation is a risky proposition, because if you have no control over where in the world you will be reincarnated, & no control over your staus in life, you can end up in a really sh#tty & ghastly situation.

Nothingness sounds like the best of all possible options when you die. Why do I want to worship some god that wil grant me eternal life, when I dont necessarily want it in the 1st place?
 
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d taylor

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So this brings me to the question of eternal life. Why is eternal life even desirable? Of course once alive, most of us want to continue to live as long as possible, but why is life better than nothingness?

It is hard for most of us to imagine non-existance, because we can only remember, & have only ever experienced life. So while eternal life might seem like a good thing, is it really? Eternity is a bloody long time. And suppose you make it into heaven, but it is really nothing like you imagined. There is no escape, ever!If god is even half as tyranical as he comes across in the bible, do I want to spend eternity under his control, worshipping him every day?

Regarding what Jesus said or didnt say in the bible, we have no proof that Jesus actually said any of the things that are reported in the gospels.

He may have said some things, & not others. As the gospels are written, the later they are written the more divine jesus apparently comes as the religion has developed. Hence in the gospel of Mark, Jesus is not seen as god, however by the Gospel of John, jesus is quoted as saying things that were never quoted in the other gospels, & by this time, Jesus is actually equating himself fully with god. the gospel of John was written 40 to 60 years after the gospel of Mark, & reflects the change in thinking of its followers, that Jesus is actually god in the form of a man.

So I have no evidence that by believing in jesus I will get eternal life, & even if I did get eternal life, do I really WANT eternal life. Even reincarnation is a risky proposition, because if you have no control over where in the world you will be reincarnated, & no control over your staus in life, you can end up in a really sh#tty & ghastly situation.

Nothingness sounds like the best of all possible options when you die. Why do I want to worship some god that wil grant me eternal life, when I dont necessarily want it in the 1st place?

Are you concerned about current conditions on earth death, starving people, wars, land misused, on and on all the just bad conditions experienced by people and animals, etc..

Seems like you have come across the misinformation many preaches teach.

Eternal life is not spent in heaven, eternal life is lived back here on the new earth but with out all the problems and more, mentioned above.
You are not some floating spirit spending eternity in heaven.
The resurrected will receive an immortal body and the believer will work, mow grass, sleep, eat, etc ..

But you may be like, what Paul states to the Jews, who also rejected the message of eternal life.

Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

Really, is not any thing in the past,
you are relying on faith to believe that events happened.
You have no personal experience of witnessing an event of the past. You examine the evidence and either believe the evidence presented or not, either in books or now a days on the computer.

You take it on faith that Rembrandt, Catherine the Great, etc lived and did what they did as recorded in books, etc..
 
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Theo Barnsley

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You take it on faith that Rembrandt, Catherine the Great, etc lived and did what they did as recorded in books, etc..
Wether I believe somebody existed in the past by faith or not, it dosnt really matter if they did or not. I am not believing that if I believe in Rembrandt, that i will get everlasting life. There is also supporting evidence of Rembrandt's life (his paintings).

It is possible in the future that some people might believe that Harry Potter really existed. If they just believe he existed, there is no real harm done.

However if they decide to form a religion around him, & start preaching that only by believing in Harry Potter that you can get eternal life, then that MAY be a problem, depending on what other doctrines the religion contains, that you are also expected to follow, in order to call yourself a true Harry Potterist!

It is probable if this does happen in the future, there will be different breakaway Harry Potterist denominations, who all disagree on what the different texts actually meant.

Because I believe somebody existed, it does not mean that I believe that everything that is written about them is true.

If you read a history about somebody in the past, who is NOT claimed to be a god, & there is some supernatural event written about them, most people dont automatically assume that the super natural event actually happened. Most people assume that yes, they were probably a real person (because there is OTHER evidence supporting their existance), but that the supernatural event attributed to them is an embellishment by the author. That is how most historians treat these sorts of texts.

Yet your claim is that these rules dont apply to Jesus. Not only am I expected to believe that he is a real person, I am also expected to believe the supernatural events associated with the stories.

If you read a biography of the prophet mohammed, written by a muslim believer, are you going to assume that everything that is written about HIM is true, including any supernatural events attributed to him? My guess is no, yet because YOU believe that everything written about Jesus is true, you cannot see why others cannot do the same.

The reason you can easily dismiss stories about the prophet mohammed, is because you have nothing invested in believing the prophet mohammed (unlike a muslim believer).

However becaue you have invested your life into believing about Jesus, you cannot bear to believe that what is written about him may not be true. So it does not matter to you what evidence that could be presented that may cast doubt on the veracity of the claims. You are simply not going to believe it, no matter how logical the evidence is.

I cannot believe that everything written about Jesus is true, any more than you will be able to believe that everything written about the prophet mohammed is true.

It is a bit rich of a god to expect people to believe on faith alone. Back in Jesus day, practically everybody believed in some god or other, or even many gods.

Every natural event that there was no explanation for was attributed to a supernatural god. Strong winds, god is angry. Mountain spewing lava & volcanic ash, god is angry. Thunder & lightning, god is angry. Drought, god is angry. Floods, god is angry. Earthquakes, god is angry.

So there was no need to convince anybody back then that a god or gods existed, that was a given. It was only necessary to convince them which god or gods to worship.

Apparently back then, god was prepared to work miracles in order to prove his existance. Walking on water, raising the dead, healing the sick, casting out demons. Even then it was still hard to convince people, given by the fact that very few jews actually converted.

Yet today, not only do we have science to explain events that were once regarded as could only be caused by a god. We also have no miracles (at least none that can not be explained by natural events). Apparently god has retired from performing miracles. We are expected to believe only from unverifiable stories of jesus life.

If god REALLY wants people to believe in him, he could help out by performing a few miracles now & then, of which the only sensible explanation is from a resurrected god!
 
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Theo Barnsley

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I think religious belief is largely driven by fear--fear of death, fear of the future, and fear of the unknown. For believers, their god(s) is a way to deal with it. God-belief provides psychological comfort and peace of mind. It's reassuring for them to believe in a higher power, who cares about them, watches over and protects them. And according to Christian doctrine, will reward their faith with a blissful eternal life, fee of all pain and fear. Just like the psalm says, "The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want." In some ways, gods are grown-up versions of a 6-year old's imaginary friend. Someone who is always with them. They are never alone, and don't have to be afraid.
You are spot on about the fear part. I was raised a christian, & when I decided around 17 that I could not believe the religious doctrine that I was being fed, the biggest thing that held me back from leaving the religion entirely for a no. of years was the fear of hell.

The fear of going to hell is drummed into you from an early age, & I believe that this is a very deliberate strategy by the church, as they know that that the fear of hell is a much greater motivating factor in keeping people in religion, than the promise of everlasting life.

I have also heard from many other former christians, that the fear of hell was a factor in keeping them in the religion well past when they had stopped believing in the truth of the religion.

It takes quite a few years to get it out of your system after you have stopped believing.
 
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Neostarwcc

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The problem with people who write religious texts is that they are prone to exagerate, embellish, or even lie about the subject matter.

Do you believe that everything in the Quran & other Islamic texts written around the time about the prophet mohammed is all true? I would guess that you dont, but try telling that to a devout muslim!

The guards guarding the tomb is mentioned by only ONE of the gospel writers, which is Mathew. Do you think that it is possible that Mathew might have embellished the story by adding the guards to get around the problem of people saying that the body was stolen or moved by the disciples?

There are a no. of explanations for the missing body:
1: The body was never placed in the tomb in the 1st place. Maybe the body was left on the cross to rot & be eaten by animals, which was the usual fate of the bodies of those that were crucified.

You will retort that that is not possible, because there are 4 independent witnesses, but are there really? It is believed by many scholars that Mark was the 1st gospel written, & that Mathew, Luke & John used the material from Mark to construct their narratives. This would explain the close agreement on the burial, but only 1 actual original narrative. However there is no way of knowing if the original narrative actually happened as written, or was a made up story.

2. The body WAS taken from the cross (unusual, because the usual practise was to leave the bodies on the cross. Why would Pilate allow Jesus body to be taken from the cross in the 1st place. Pilate had no reason to do this.) It was placed in a tomb, but then later moved by somebody. Even if guards WERE placed at the tomb as claimed by Mathew, this did not happen until the next day, which gives plenty of time for somebody to move the body. If somebody was going to move a body, they would want to do it as soon as possible before the body deteriorated too much.

3. The body was placed in a tomb, but the witnesses were mistaken as to which tomb the body was placed in. There may have been a no. of tombs in the area. As the witnesses were probably distraught & not thinking clearly, & the light may not have been good at the time the body was placed, it is understandable that they may be mistaken about the tomb the body was placed in.

4. The body never went missing at all & was still in the tomb, but the apostles claimed that it gone missing as they had to construct the narrative of the resurection. The narrative of the resurection was necessary to explain why jesus had NOT fulfilled any prophecies of the messiah, so he had to be resurected & then return to fulfill the prophecies.

Since it was at least 50 days after the crucifiction before they started preaching this (according to the gospels only, it may have been much longer), by then the body would have degraded enough to be unrecognisable, so nobody could prove that any body in the tomb was that of jesus, even if they knew which tomb he had been placed in. There was no forensics back then that would enable anybody to prove that a degraded body was a particular person.

5. The authors of the gospels are simply lying & writing fiction.

So there are five perfectly plausible explanations as to why the body could be proposed to be missing. Some people might be able to come up wth other explanations as well.

I dont expect you to agree with any of the explanations, just as no committed muslim is going to agree with any explanation that you might put forward to explain why any particular story about the prophet mohammed that they believe in could be false.

I dont have any vested interest in believing what anything in the bible says. I will go where the evidence leads, but it has to be pretty good evidence.

If I am prrepared to believe anything on faith, then I could be led to believe ANY religion on faith, & people often do, which is why there are a multitude of religions, & multitude of denominations of those religions on the planet.

For any god to expect anybody to believe something on faith, without providing verifiable evidence, seems to be plainly ridiculous to me, & I dont think that any worthwhile god WOULD expect people to believe in him purely on faith.


No I don't believe the writings in the Quran are true because the Quran, book of Mormon, and other religious books add to the Bibl and were written by people who were proven through scripture to be false prophets. I believe that the Bible is whole and complete which is why in the 2,000 years since Christ and his apostles died no prophet or apostle has come to add to scripture. Scripture is complete as it is.

You're right that Guards guarding the tomb are only written about in the Gospel of Matthew. The other Gospel writers seemed to have not written about it. But Luke was more interested in writing about the more important things like many of Jesus's teachings and his miracles and whatnot ditto Mark. John was more interested in talking about salvation and just how people are saved. He wanted to point out the diety of Christ and to prove that through scripture. But Jesus rising from the dead is in all of the gospel accounts.

To me I find it highly unlikely that the disciples stole Jesus's body on the first day. Why? Because when the guards were placed at the tomb I'm sure they opened the tomb to make sure Jesus was still there. It's not written about but it can be inferred. Don't forget Jesus wasn't just an ordinary man crucified by the Romans. He made many claims to diety, he performed miracles, and he claimed that he would rise from the dead which is why they buried him and placed guards at the tomb. Because they wanted to make sure that he DIDN'T rise from the dead and so that they could prove that this Jesus was just another false prophet. But he did rise from the dead and he was the only human being in history that was both sinless and had the ability to rise from the dead. Like I said this only proved once and for all that Christ was God in the flesh because only God can raise himself from the dead. No prophet (or human being) has ever done that before in this worlds long history.


But lets say the apostles did steal the body for the sake of argument. What did they do with it? How could they hide it from the Romans who I'm sure spent plenty of time looking for Jesus's body. The body of Jesus Christ has been "missing" for over 2,000 years now so the apostles must have hid the body REALLY well. No Jesus rose and is sitting at the right hand of God the Father in heaven and one day he will return to rebuild Jerusalem and bring in an era of peace. This I know. You may not believe it and that's your right and you may call me crazy but I know its true.
 
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d taylor

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Wether I believe somebody existed in the past by faith or not, it dosnt really matter if they did or not. I am not believing that if I believe in Rembrandt, that i will get everlasting life. There is also supporting evidence of Rembrandt's life (his paintings).

What is the difference between a painting and a book.

Well the issue is really simple and black and white.
Either the Bible is as the Bibles states (because nobody else can provide proof besides the Bible itself) the word of God and gives the truth about: God, creation, man, sin, eternal life, death and existence after death of people, the future of creation, etc...
or the Bible is just another book.

Looks like you have examined the evidence and do not believe the evidence presented by the Bible.

I have and i believe the evidence to be true and believe the Bible is the word of God and instructs accurately in all areas and tells how to have eternal life.

You seek a miracle from God well you will not receive that miracle, unless events in Revelation happen in your life time.
The Bible also has people who ask for miracles and saw miracles and still not believe.
A fine example was the healing of the deaf and dumb mute by Jesus.
What makes you think that seeing a miracle now would make you change your mind.

The whole world will be governed by God/Jesus for a 1000 years and yet after being ruled by God in a near perfect environment (except for the existence of sin) after the termination of the 1000 years . there will still be people who hate God and reject God , His offer of eternal life.

Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”

The simple fact of the matter is that now in this age God has chosen to communicate through the Bible, all He wants humanity to know about Him, Jesus, sin, satan, creation, death, life, love and how to receive eternal life, and many other areas
There are no prophets roaming the earth, no angelic host teaching about God

And that is all i have to offer
 
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Theo Barnsley

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No I don't believe the writings in the Quran are true because the Quran, book of Mormon, and other religious books add to the Bibl and were written by people who were proven through scripture to be false prophets. I believe that the Bible is whole and complete which is why in the 2,000 years since Christ and his apostles died no prophet or apostle has come to add to scripture. Scripture is complete as it is.
You dont believe the Quran is true, or the book of Mormon is true, because they ADD to the bible? So why then do you believe that the New Testament is true? Dosnt it ADD to the bible?

Go & ask a Jew to show you their bible. It dosnt have ANY of the new testament in it, because the New Testament was ADDED to the bible, just like tthe other religions that you dont believe because they were ADDED to the bible. So by your very own logic, you have just proven that the New Testament is false!
To me I find it highly unlikely that the disciples stole Jesus's body on the first day. Why? Because when the guards were placed at the tomb I'm sure they opened the tomb to make sure Jesus was still there. It's not written about but it can be inferred. Don't forget Jesus wasn't just an ordinary man crucified by the Romans. He made many claims to diety, he performed miracles, and he claimed that he would rise from the dead which is why they buried him and placed guards at the tomb. Because they wanted to make sure that he DIDN'T rise from the dead and so that they could prove that this Jesus was just another false prophet. But he did rise from the dead and he was the only human being in history that was both sinless and had the ability to rise from the dead. Like I said this only proved once and for all that Christ was God in the flesh because only God can raise himself from the dead. No prophet (or human being) has ever done that before in this worlds long history.
Jesus was not important to the Romans at all. According to the story, Pontius Pilate could find no evidence Jesus was even guilty of anything, & was happy to let Jesus go, but the jews insisted that he be crucified. If it was the Romans who were concerned he might rise on the 3rd day, why release his body at all, they could have left his carcass on the cross to decompose & be eaten by the animals like the other carcasses, which is possibly what DID happen. If guards WERE sent to guard the tomb, as claimed ONLY in Mathew, the soldiers would not have bothered to check to see if the body was still in the tomb unless that was part of their orders. Apparently a rock was rolled across the tomb entrance way. They would only investigate if the rock was removed. No doubt if somebody removed the body, they would have rolled the rock back before leaving. Jesus was nothing to the roman guards. There were plenty of crazy jews going about saying they were the messiah at that time.

The Romans would only have conducted an investigation into a missing body if a missing body was reported. According to the new testament, the disciples did not bother to preach Jesus resurection until at least 50 days after the crucifiction. By this time any body would have been so decomposed to have been unrecognisable. There would be no way to confirm if any body was the body of Jesus. There was no forensics or DNA testing back then.
But lets say the apostles did steal the body for the sake of argument. What did they do with it? How could they hide it from the Romans who I'm sure spent plenty of time looking for Jesus's body. The body of Jesus Christ has been "missing" for over 2,000 years now so the apostles must have hid the body REALLY well.
I am sure that there were plenty of tombs about. All they had to do was take Jesus from one tomb & place him in another tomb. If the body was not REPORTED missing, no investigation would have been launched, & even if the body WAS reported missing, how seriously would they have really looked. As I said, Jesus was not important to the Romans. If you believe the story, it was not the Romans that were upset by the miracles & claims to diety, it was the Jews. But if Jesus followeres HAD moved the body, they are hardly going to report the body missing, are they! There are certainly no reports in the N.T. or anywhere else about an investigation being conducted. If one had been, & no body found, I am sure one of the N.T. writers would have mentioned it, as this would have added weight to their case that Jesus actually rose from the dead.

Another thing that adds weight to the claim that the body was moved, & not a resurection event, is that Jesus was supposed to be resureted after 3 days. Yet if he died on Friday night, & his body was discovered missing on morning of the 1st day of the week (Sunday), then by my calculations it isnt even 2 days before his body was discovered missing! How does that square with Jesus saying he will be raised after THREE days in the earth? (It is actually only 1 1/2 days from being placed in the tomb, till his body was discovered missing, according to the gospels). If Jesus was resurected, & his body not moved, then his body should still have been in the tomb after 1 1/2 days, & not gone missing until Monday night, not Sunday morning!
No Jesus rose and is sitting at the right hand of God the Father in heaven and one day he will return to rebuild Jerusalem and bring in an era of peace. This I know. You may not believe it and that's your right and you may call me crazy but I know its true.
That is your take, but if you believe in the O.T. then YaWeH clearly states, there is only one god, & no other god.

Please show me ONE passage in the O.T. where it says that there is a Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, or a trinity?

Show me one verse in the O.T. where it says that anybody else is sitting at the right hand of God?

Jesus being god CLEARLY contradicts the Old Testament, so the new testament is CLEARLY NOT part of the Old Testament, which any learned Jew will attest. It also says NOWHERE in the O.T. that the Messiah would be god. If God KNEW he was going to send Jesus from the very beginning as claimed by christian apologists, you would think that would have been mentioned somewhere, other than very vague 'prophecies' that any Jewish Rabbi can easily interpret as having nothing to do with a prophecy of Jesus.

Instead we have these descriptions of God in the O.T., which make it VERY CLEAR that there is NOT going to be a god Messiah, or somebody else sitting at the right hand of God, or a trinity:
  1. "there is no one like Yahweh our God." Exodus 8:10
  2. "Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35
  3. "Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39
  4. "See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me" Deuteronomy 32:39
  5. "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4
  6. "You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22
  7. "For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?" 2 Samuel 22:32
  8. "Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60
  9. "You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth." 2 Kings 19:15
  10. "O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You" 1 Chronicles 17:20
  11. "You alone [bad] are Yahweh." Nehemiah 9:6
  12. "For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God" Psalm 18:31
  13. "You alone [bad], Lord, are God." Isaiah 37:20
  14. "Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
  15. "'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6
  16. "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8
  17. "I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5
  18. "Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14
  19. "I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
  20. "Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21
  21. "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9
There are more, but I am sure you get the general idea!

Why would god stress over & over & over again, that there was none besides him, that there was no one else, that he was the 1st & the last, if there was actually a trinity. Why would god not just say that there is a trinity from the get go? Why would god expect the Jews to recognise Jesus as the messiah, when NOWHERE in the OT does it state that the messiah is god, or that the messiah would be resurected after being killed?

I have also not yet had anyone attempt to explain how Jesus is not a false prophet, since he clearly did NOT return in the timeframe that he said that he would (the generation of the apostles)!
 
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Theo Barnsley

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What is the difference between a painting and a book.

Well the issue is really simple and black and white.
Either the Bible is as the Bibles states (because nobody else can provide proof besides the Bible itself) the word of God and gives the truth about: God, creation, man, sin, eternal life, death and existence after death of people, the future of creation, etc...
or the Bible is just another book.

Looks like you have examined the evidence and do not believe the evidence presented by the Bible.

I have and i believe the evidence to be true and believe the Bible is the word of God and instructs accurately in all areas and tells how to have eternal life.

You seek a miracle from God well you will not receive that miracle, unless events in Revelation happen in your life time.
The Bible also has people who ask for miracles and saw miracles and still not believe.
A fine example was the healing of the deaf and dumb mute by Jesus.
What makes you think that seeing a miracle now would make you change your mind.

The whole world will be governed by God/Jesus for a 1000 years and yet after being ruled by God in a near perfect environment (except for the existence of sin) after the termination of the 1000 years . there will still be people who hate God and reject God , His offer of eternal life.

Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”

The simple fact of the matter is that now in this age God has chosen to communicate through the Bible, all He wants humanity to know about Him, Jesus, sin, satan, creation, death, life, love and how to receive eternal life, and many other areas
There are no prophets roaming the earth, no angelic host teaching about God

And that is all i have to offer
Firstly in this debate, I have not made the claim anywhere that the Jewish bible (Old Testament) is false. I am not saying that I believe it, just that it is not relevent in this debate.

However I WOULD contend, that if you believe the Old Testament to be true, as the Jews do, then the new Testament can NOT be true, & that Jesus can NOT be a god, because this would clearly contradict the Old Testament view of who god is. The Old Testament clearly states two things:
1. "Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60

Note that it does not say ANYWHERE in the Old Testament that god is a trinity, or that god is Yaweh & also Jesus & the Holy Spirit. It clearly says over & over & over & over, that god is ONE SINGLE entity! (see my previous post where I list more verses just like the one above, & there are many more of them in the O.T.).

2. That The Messiah would be an annointed King, who would fulfill certain prophecies.
It says NOWHERE in the Old Testament that 'The Messiah' would be god or a god, or the son of god, which rules out Jesus being the Messiah, if the claim is made that he is also god. This, along with the fact that Jesus fulfilled no prophecies of the messiah, also rules him out as being the prophesied Messiah.

Just those two facts alone, should tell you that Jesus cannot possibly be the prophesied messiah, & that the Jews were right to reject him. However this is only the tip of the iceberg of the theological differences between the new & the old testament.

Christian apologists claim that prophecies in the O.T. prophesy Jesus (which the Jews deny, & I have heard both sides of the argument, & the Rabbis interpretation seems correct to me).

But lets say that some prophecies do fit Jesus. Isnt it also possible that the REAL messiah will arrive sometimme in the future, that the prophecies also fit, & that this messiah ALSO fulfills the prophecies that jesus was supposed to, but didnt?

I could find prophecies in the bible that appear to fit Donald Trump. But just because some prophecies appear to fit somebody, this is not proof that they are the messiah, unless he also fulfills the other prophecies expected of him, which Jesus obviusly didnt!

So to say that somebody must be the messiah, because you can find passages in the bible that appear to describe them, is clearly a flawed & illogical argument.

You can not have it both ways, & say that the O.T. is the word of God, & then also claim that the New Testament is the word of god, if the N.T. clearly contradicts the O.T. Either one or both has to be false.

jesus also proved himself to be a false prophet, by telling his disciples that he would return "in their generation". He didnt, so he is a false prophet. Case closed!
 
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This thread had a small clean up and was moved from the Kitchen Sink to Exploring Christianity. The Kitchen Sink was not the place for a theology or apologetics discussion.

 
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d taylor

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Firstly in this debate, I have not made the claim anywhere that the Jewish bible (Old Testament) is false. I am not saying that I believe it, just that it is not relevent in this debate.

However I WOULD contend, that if you believe the Old Testament to be true, as the Jews do, then the new Testament can NOT be true, & that Jesus can NOT be a god, because this would clearly contradict the Old Testament view of who god is. The Old Testament clearly states two things:
1. "Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60

Note that it does not say ANYWHERE in the Old Testament that god is a trinity, or that god is Yaweh & also Jesus & the Holy Spirit. It clearly says over & over & over & over, that god is ONE SINGLE entity! (see my previous post where I list more verses just like the one above, & there are many more of them in the O.T.).

2. That The Messiah would be an annointed King, who would fulfill certain prophecies.
It says NOWHERE in the Old Testament that 'The Messiah' would be god or a god, or the son of god, which rules out Jesus being the Messiah, if the claim is made that he is also god. This, along with the fact that Jesus fulfilled no prophecies of the messiah, also rules him out as being the prophesied Messiah.

Just those two facts alone, should tell you that Jesus cannot possibly be the prophesied messiah, & that the Jews were right to reject him. However this is only the tip of the iceberg of the theological differences between the new & the old testament.

Christian apologists claim that prophecies in the O.T. prophesy Jesus (which the Jews deny, & I have heard both sides of the argument, & the Rabbis interpretation seems correct to me).

But lets say that some prophecies do fit Jesus. Isnt it also possible that the REAL messiah will arrive sometimme in the future, that the prophecies also fit, & that this messiah ALSO fulfills the prophecies that jesus was supposed to, but didnt?

I could find prophecies in the bible that appear to fit Donald Trump. But just because some prophecies appear to fit somebody, this is not proof that they are the messiah, unless he also fulfills the other prophecies expected of him, which Jesus obviusly didnt!

So to say that somebody must be the messiah, because you can find passages in the bible that appear to describe them, is clearly a flawed & illogical argument.

You can not have it both ways, & say that the O.T. is the word of God, & then also claim that the New Testament is the word of god, if the N.T. clearly contradicts the O.T. Either one or both has to be false.

jesus also proved himself to be a false prophet, by telling his disciples that he would return "in their generation". He didnt, so he is a false prophet. Case closed!

You have quite a few questions i will look at what you are asking or making a comment on.

Are you judging Jesus on modern day Judaism or Biblical Judaism.
Also there are various beliefs among Judaism.
Some object for the reason that they believe a man can not become God.
But the Bible never states that a man became God, but the Old testament states that God will become a man. Isaiah 9:6

The Old Testament states that God will have a son Psalms 2:7 “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me,‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

What, where are you referencing when you say Jesus said he would return in their generation. so i can correctly see what you are asking

What does Genesis 11:7 mean

When Paul witness about Jesus to the Jews He did from the Old Testament the New Testament did not exist then

But the New Testament works in perfect accordance with the Old Testament.
 
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Theo Barnsley

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You have quite a few questions i will look at what you are asking or making a comment on.

Are you judging Jesus on modern day Judaism or Biblical Judaism.
Also there are various beliefs among Judaism.
Some object for the reason that they believe a man can not become God.
But the Bible never states that a man became God, but the Old testament states that God will become a man. Isaiah 9:6
Isaiah 9:6 is about King Hezekiah. it is definately not about Jesus, because it goes on to say:
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

Jesus has not led any government, & he has not reigned on Davids throne, or over any kingdom, nor has he bought any peace. If you are going to say that he will do that in the future, then you cannot say that the prophecy is about Jesus, UNTIL he fulfills it. If he never fulfills the prophecy, it is obviously not about him.

The whole of isaiah is difficult to understand & interpret for me, so I will defer to the experts for the explanation of the prophecy: https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/who-is-the-child-in-isaiah-95-6/

The Old Testament states that God will have a son Psalms 2:7 “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me,‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
Psalms 2:7 is referring to the nation of Israel, not Jesus. The nation of Israel is often referred to as gods son, as can be shown in the following passage:
“When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. The more they were called, the more they went away; they kept sacrificing to the Baals and burning offerings to idols” (vv. 1–2).
- Hosea 11:1–7
I have heard some Christians quote part of the above passage, saying that it is prophecy about Jesus, however they conveniently only quote the 1st half of the passage, & ignore the bit about sacrificing to the Baals.

The nation of Israel is also often referred to as gods servant, or suffering servant in the O.T.
What, where are you referencing when you say Jesus said he would return in their generation. so i can correctly see what you are asking

“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. (Matthew 16: 27, 28)

“Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (Matthew 24: 25-34)

“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place… (Mark 13:26-30)

“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. Then He told them a parable: Behold the fig tree and all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. (Luke 21:27-32)

None of the above has taken place. Jesus did not say that these things would happen far off in the future. He tells his disciples that "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place."

What does Genesis 11:7 mean
You tell me what it means to you? Certainly nothing about Jesus that I can see.

Who does god talk to in the book of Job? It tells you that the Angels & Satan were there. No mention of Jesus is made. Does god have a converstion with the angels & Satan in the book of Job? So who do you think God might be talking to in Genesis 11:7? Does God often communicate with Angels in the O.T. to fulfill tasks for him?

When Paul witness about Jesus to the Jews He did from the Old Testament the New Testament did not exist then. But the New Testament works in perfect accordance with the Old Testament.
Paul appeared to know almost nothing about Jesus life, he certainly makes no mention of Jesus life, or even anything that Jesus said.

Given the no. of passages in the old testament, you can take just about any person in history & find phrases in it that appear to fit their life. The fact that you can cherry pick certain phrases from the Old Testament, & make them appear to fit Jesus life, is totally unremarkable & proves nothing. Most of the passages that are claimed as prophecy of Jesus, only fit if they are taken out of context.

The question also has to be asked, did Jesus life actually fit prophecies in the old testament, or was jesus life CONSTRUCTED by the gospel writers to FIT prophecies in the old testament?

Where does Jesus fit in these passages?:
  1. there is no one like Yahweh our God." Exodus 8:10
  2. "Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35
  3. "Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39
  4. "See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me" Deuteronomy 32:39
  5. "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4
  6. "You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22
  7. "For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?" 2 Samuel 22:32
  8. "Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60
  9. "You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth." 2 Kings 19:15
  10. "O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You" 1 Chronicles 17:20
  11. "You alone are Yahweh." Nehemiah 9:6
  12. "For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God" Psalm 18:31
  13. "You alone, Lord, are God." Isaiah 37:20
  14. "Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
  15. "'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6
  16. "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8
  17. "I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5
  18. "Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14
  19. "I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
  20. "Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21
  21. "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9
 
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Isaiah 9:6 is about King Hezekiah. it is definately not about Jesus, because it goes on to say:
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

Jesus has not led any government, & he has not reigned on Davids throne, or over any kingdom, nor has he bought any peace. If you are going to say that he will do that in the future, then you cannot say that the prophecy is about Jesus, UNTIL he fulfills it. If he never fulfills the prophecy, it is obviously not about him.

The whole of isaiah is difficult to understand & interpret for me, so I will defer to the experts for the explanation of the prophecy: https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/who-is-the-child-in-isaiah-95-6/


Psalms 2:7 is referring to the nation of Israel, not Jesus. The nation of Israel is often referred to as gods son, as can be shown in the following passage:
“When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. The more they were called, the more they went away; they kept sacrificing to the Baals and burning offerings to idols” (vv. 1–2).
- Hosea 11:1–7
I have heard some Christians quote part of the above passage, saying that it is prophecy about Jesus, however they conveniently only quote the 1st half of the passage, & ignore the bit about sacrificing to the Baals.

The nation of Israel is also often referred to as gods servant, or suffering servant in the O.T.


“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. (Matthew 16: 27, 28)

“Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (Matthew 24: 25-34)

“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place… (Mark 13:26-30)

“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. Then He told them a parable: Behold the fig tree and all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. (Luke 21:27-32)

None of the above has taken place. Jesus did not say that these things would happen far off in the future. He tells his disciples that "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place."


You tell me what it means to you? Certainly nothing about Jesus that I can see.

Who does god talk to in the book of Job? It tells you that the Angels & Satan were there. No mention of Jesus is made. Does god have a converstion with the angels & Satan in the book of Job? So who do you think God might be talking to in Genesis 11:7? Does God often communicate with Angels in the O.T. to fulfill tasks for him?


Paul appeared to know almost nothing about Jesus life, he certainly makes no mention of Jesus life, or even anything that Jesus said.

Given the no. of passages in the old testament, you can take just about any person in history & find phrases in it that appear to fit their life. The fact that you can cherry pick certain phrases from the Old Testament, & make them appear to fit Jesus life, is totally unremarkable & proves nothing. Most of the passages that are claimed as prophecy of Jesus, only fit if they are taken out of context.

The question also has to be asked, did Jesus life actually fit prophecies in the old testament, or was jesus life CONSTRUCTED by the gospel writers to FIT prophecies in the old testament?

Where does Jesus fit in these passages?:
  1. there is no one like Yahweh our God." Exodus 8:10
  2. "Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35
  3. "Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39
  4. "See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me" Deuteronomy 32:39
  5. "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4
  6. "You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22
  7. "For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?" 2 Samuel 22:32
  8. "Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60
  9. "You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth." 2 Kings 19:15
  10. "O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You" 1 Chronicles 17:20
  11. "You alone are Yahweh." Nehemiah 9:6
  12. "For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God" Psalm 18:31
  13. "You alone, Lord, are God." Isaiah 37:20
  14. "Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
  15. "'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6
  16. "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8
  17. "I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5
  18. "Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14
  19. "I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
  20. "Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21
  21. "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9

A human king will not hold these titles.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Genesis states let - us - come down again who is us
Like i said before if you do not believe The witness of the complete Bible, that is fine i do not have to live with your decision.

but i do not have time during a work week to continue to do a back and forth with a person who only may be here just to debate back and forth.

Maybe some else may take you up on your debate.
 
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Theo Barnsley

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A human king will not hold these titles.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Like i said before if you do not believe The witness of the complete Bible, that is fine i do not have to live with your decision.

but i do not have time during a work week to continue to do a back and forth with a person who only may be here just to debate back and forth.

Maybe some else may take you up on your debate.
It is obvious you did not read the link that I sent you, where it expalins why Isaiah is referring to King Hezekiah as Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

If you had, this would have been explained to you. Or maybe you did read it, but are ignoring it, because it does not match what you WANT the passage to mean. The passage CANNOT be about Jesus, because Jesus did not fulfil any of the prophecies just after this passage (which you conveniently left out of your quote).

Genesis states let - us - come down again who is us

God & the Angels. You want to fit Jesus into the equation when there is absolutely no need to, & absolutely no evidence that God would be talking to Jesus, when he talks to angels many times in the O.T. And angels are obviously capable of doing stuff. It is claimed Satan is a fallen angel by christians. Is Satan incapable of doing anything? So why would the other angels be incapable of going down with God to confuse the people at the tower of Babel?

I also notice that you made no attempt at answering why Jesus is not a false prophet for stating that he will "return in the generation of the apostles", or how Jesus fits into the 21 passages I cited! Are you conceding the debate?
 
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