What Does the Christian Community say about Near Death Experiences?

[Albion]

1 Thess 4:13-18 also puts the person in the "sleep state" during that period of time - so they too could not later be resurrected and tell lots of stories about what they were doing while dead in true NDE fashion.

Part of the problem with NDEs (I think) is that we're not sure if the person has been dead or not. They've appeared to be dead and, customarily, they're been pronounced dead. But possibly they have instead been in some transitional state that we cannot explain. The key to the phenomenon, however, is them relaying, upon being revived, accounts of things happening to them while "out" that can be verified but which they otherwise could not know.

For example, a woman who was near death from an auto accident on a highway far from her home, then rushed to the nearest hospital which she'd never laid eyes on before and, following a clinical death, tells with amazing specificity of events and conversations that took place during that time period in another part of the hospital in which she had never set foot or even known about.

 

[BobRyan]

Part of the problem with NDEs (I think) is that we're not sure if the person has been dead or not. They've appeared to be dead and, customarily, they're been pronounced dead. But possibly they have instead been in some transitional state that we cannot explain.

Agreed. They almost never show up as in the Lazarus case of "dead for 3 days" then a real resurrection (I suspect that never happens with an NDE story to go with it) - so it may well be that they are having a vision/dream/experience where the body is not yet literally dead.When God is "in it" as in the widow of Nain or Lazarus the person has been dead for a good while ... in some extreme cases "days". So it is legit.

Once your heart stops your cells do not instantly die.

 

[Albion]

Agreed. They almost never show up as in the Lazarus case of "dead for 3 days" then a real resurrection - so it may well be that they are having a vision/dream/experience where the body is not yet literally dead.

Yes, but the key to the NDE is the apparent impossibility of the person knowing from some other source the facts that they relay upon reviving, coupled with us knowing them to be true.

Visions of heaven are not what we are talking about, therefore, since they could be true or not. We cannot say. NDEs are unlike visions, for example.

 

[BobRyan]

For example, a woman who was near death from an auto accident on a highway far from her home, then rushed to the nearest hospital which she'd never laid eyes on before and, following a clinical death, tells with amazing specificity of events and conversations that took place during that time period in another part of the hospital in which she had never set foot or even known about.

I think the "likely" explanation is that her body was not actually "dead" -- her brain cells/tissue was still very much alive and either she interpreted something based on what was spoken around her (hearing is the last sense to go in the death process) -- or they were given a vision/dream by "someone" during that period of time.

 

[BobRyan]

Visions of heaven are not what we are talking about, therefore, since they could be true or not. We cannot say. NDEs are unlike visions, for example.

My personal understanding is that the NDE explanation is not even possible.

I think that what is called "NDE" is either a vision/dream or it is hallucination of a brain during shut down where the last sense to go is hearing... then that brain is revived before actual brain tissue death has occurred.

If it is a vision/dream then "who is the source"? That would be a question that would need to be answered. 1 John 4 might come in handy at that point.

 

[Albion]

I think the "likely" explanation is that her body was not actually "dead" -- her brain cells/tissue was still very much alive and either she interpreted something based on what was spoken around her (hearing is the last sense to go in the death process) -- or they were given a vision/dream by "someone" during that period of time.

Well, all of that was at first inquired into and none of it provided an explanation. She knew and saw and heard what she could not have known.

Now, there might be some more elaborate explanation. For example she had once been in the hospital, although it was far from her home, and she lied about that for some reason or other. But then, how could she have known the conversation she reported hearing while on the table where she had died, or the number of persons involved, where they were standing, and etc.? She couldn't. What's more, even if there were a way to dispose of this particular NDE, it wouldn't explain a hundred other ones.

 

[BobRyan]

Well, all of that was at first inquired into and none of it provided an explanation. She knew and saw and heard what she could not have known.

The option of vision/dream is by definition not ruled out merely by determining that information was given in a vision that was not already given before the vision.

 

[Albion]

My personal understanding is that the NDE explanation is not even possible.

No, I don't know where that idea might have come from.

I think that what is called "NDE" is either a vision/dream or it is hallucination of a brain during shut down where the last sense to go is hearing... then that brain is revived before actual brain tissue death has occurred.

No, that absolutely is NOT an NDE, whether or not anyone believes NDEs are real.

 

[Albion]

The option of vision/dream is by definition not ruled out merely by determining that information was given in a vision that was not already given before the vision.

If it's a vision, it's not an NDE. Or maybe we should rather say that, a vision, if true, doesn't explain the NDEs as I have tried to describe them and which is how researchers look at the matter.

 

[BobRyan]

Well, all of that was at first inquired into and none of it provided an explanation. She knew and saw and heard what she could not have known.

1. The option of vision/dream is by definition not ruled out merely by determining that information was given in a vision that was not already given before the vision. You appear to be saying vision is ruled out because she did not already know the information she later reported. Not sure how you get to that kind of a rule.

2. NDE is not even possible ... what is "called" NDE is either a dream/vision or hallucination during brain shut down.

Kind of like the ancient times where many people believed that the earth was upheld by a big turtle. The Earth held in place by "Big Turtle" idea was not even possible - but what was being called "Big Turtle theory" was the Earth being held in its orbit by gravity.

 

[BobRyan]

a vision, if true, doesn't explain the NDEs as I have tried to describe them and which is how researchers look at the matter.

How does a vision not explain the NDE? (At least one of the possible explanations)

 

[Albion]

1. The option of vision/dream is by definition not ruled out merely by determining that information was given in a vision that was not already given before the vision. You appear to be saying vision is ruled out because she did not already know the information she later reported. Not sure how you get to that kind of a rule.

What we are talking about is a phenomenon in which a person seems to have out of body experiences while having been pronounced dead. And the thing about these experiences is that the specifics that are recounted can be verified but also that there is no known way for that person to have experienced what they report after being revived.

Obviously a dream doesn't fall into that category nor does a vision of heaven or a hallucination or some feeling of peace, etc. etc. nor anything else that cannot be verified as having occurred independent of the "dead" person's account.

 

[BobRyan]

What we are talking about is a phenomenon in which a person seems to have out of body experiences while having been pronounced dead.

True - and my response has been

1. If the person was really dead - then such a thing is not even possible. As noted here - #60

2. If the person was in some "nearly dead" state where they were pronounced dead but it is not a 3-days-later-resurrected scenario as in the case of Lazarus,

then there are two possibilities for having information after that - that they did not have before

A. It was a supernatural vision/or/dream given by God
B. It was a supernatural vision/or/dream given by another source
-- 1 John 4 helps give a rule for which is which​

Numbers 12:6
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, will make Myself known to him in a vision.
I will speak with him in a dream.

Obviously a dream doesn't fall into that category nor does a vision

And that is obvious because of what??

What is it about God communicated with such a live (but nearly dead) person that stops God from giving that person some information that the person did not have before??

 

[Albion]

True - and my response has been

1. If the person was really dead - then such a thing is not even possible.

We would think it impossible...until we try to explain how the person could have known what he reported.

2. If the person was in some "nearly dead" state where they were pronounced dead but it is not a 3-days-later-resurrected scenario as in the case of Lazarus,

then there are two possibilities for having information after that - that they did not have before

A. It was a supernatural vision/or/dream....​

Sure, we could say that, and it couldn't be disproved. Just as we could say that everything we perceive and think real is in fact only a vision or dream--me, Christian Forums, all of mankind, the Bible, Earth, God himself, and of course visions.

So.....is that your own conclusion about NDEs?



​

 

[BobRyan]

We would think it impossible...until we try to explain how the person could have known what he reported.

Sure, we could say that, and it couldn't be disproved. Just as we could say that everything we perceive and think real is in fact only a vision or dream--me, Christian Forums, all of mankind, the Bible, Earth, God himself, and of course visions.

So.....is that your own conclusion about NDEs?
​

True - and my response has been
1. If the person was really dead - then such a thing is not even possible. As noted here - #60

Where we see this

Almost everyone on this thread already believes that the soul survives death Matt 10:28, Eccl 12:5-7 in some form.. the question is what form.

One of the options "The sleep/dormant" option of John 11, Matt 22, 1 Thess 4:13-18, Ecclesiastes 9:5 -- does not allow for the NDE interpretation for what has happened in those cases..

So then as in Lazarus' case of being dead 3 days then brought back to life - no NDE's appear in that form.

We would think it impossible...until we try to explain how the person could have known what he reported.

1. I don't know of any NDE's where a person is dead for days as in the case of Lazarus - then comes back and tells stories about exploits during the time they were dead.
2. NDE's seem to all fit in the "dead for minutes/hours then come back" where there is some question as to whether they were actually in a state of cell death for the brain or just low level of function.

===================

So then limiting ourselves to just the "minutes or hours of NDE" option...

2. If the person was in some "nearly dead" state where they were pronounced dead but it is not a 3-days-later-resurrected scenario as in the case of Lazarus,
then there are at least two possibilities for having information after that - that they did not have before
A. It was a supernatural vision/or/dream given by God
B. It was a supernatural vision/or/dream given by another source
-- 1 John 4 helps give a rule for which is which

Numbers 12:6
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, will make Myself known to him in a vision.
I will speak with him in a dream.

Sure, we could say that, and it couldn't be disproved. ​

​

Well it can be tested via 1 John 4 to see if it is outright error.

And if they simply say something like " I was thinking that toast tastes good with butter on it while I was dead" -- then we may not be forced to conclude they were dead or that the message had any source but their own thinking.

If they come back with a formula that cures cancer or ... then we might have something to think about - but the 1 John 4 test still applies even then.

So.....is that your own conclusion about NDEs?​

​

Yes my conclusion is that all of those are possibilities that would have to be looked in to case by case , and that the idea of 1 John 4 "test" would apply to the many different explanations suggested.

 

[Davy]

I don't think that is the issue -

You are talking about a so-called "immortal soul" which I think everyone or almost-everyone on this thread already believes in - even those who think the NDE idea of dead people coming back to life and then telling stories about what they saw while dead - also believe in an immortal soul.

Well, no I am not. That's just an assumption on your part. In 1 Corinthians 15, Apostle Paul revealed that 2 changes must happen to have eternal Life through Christ. Most who read that only see 1 change, but in the Greek there are 2 changes. But just Christ's mention of a "resurrection of damnation" in John 5:28-29 should have been enough for brethren to figure out that the 'resurrection' of the dead does NOT mean automatic Salvation in Christ. The unsaved that are raised from the dead are still... subject to the "second death", so how are their souls immortal? So the resurrection to a "spiritual body" is not to the putting on immortality. And Paul showed this difference in the Greek of 1 Cor.15 with four different Greek words in 1 Cor.15:53.

 

[Davy]

Almost everyone on this thread already believes that the soul survives death Matt 10:28, Eccl 12:5-7 in some form.. the question is what form.

I dare say that the majority on this thread, including you, don't really know what the 'soul' actually is. Those who heed Jewish tradition mostly believe the soul is part of our flesh, when God's Word is specific that is not so, including the Old Testament Scripture.

One of the options "The sleep/dormant" option of John 11, Matt 22, 1 Thess 4:13-18, Ecclesiastes 9:5 -- does not allow for the NDE interpretation for what has happened in those cases.

Christ Jesus as The Son of God's ability to do miracles during His first coming is one thing, someone who clinically dies with doctors pronouncing the person dead, but then later is revived (like the Clint Walker example), is another situation.

As far as pop usage of the Ecclesiastes 9 Scripture, many don't even know how to properly interpret that, because the 'living' is being contrasted to the 'dead', and it's not just about the flesh, but about spiritual death. The memory of the dead being gone, and their having no more thing to do under the sun never applies to those asleep in Jesus, for He said those in Him pass from death to life, and memory of them certainly has never been lost. Common sense when reading that Scripture should show just who Solomon was really pointing to about the dead, i.e., the spiritual dead who are subject to the perish at the "second death". Even Jesus said something like, now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush when he called The Lord The God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; for He is not a God of the dead, but of the living (Luke 20:37-38).

The definition of an NDE is very simple. It's someone who experiences that other dimension with being out of their flesh body, and returning to their flesh body to tell about it. That is the exact example of the one in 2 Corinthians 12. The fact that Clint Walker was medically pronounced dead by two doctors, and after a long period later came back to life, and his telling what he experienced, is solid proof of an NDE.

 

[BobRyan]

I dare say that the majority on this thread, including you, don't really know what the 'soul' actually is. Those who heed Jewish tradition mostly believe the soul is part of our flesh

I think that was disproven here already.

Almost everyone on this thread already believes that the soul survives death Matt 10:28, Eccl 12:5-7 in some form.. the question is what form.

One of the options "The sleep/dormant" option of John 11, Matt 22, 1 Thess 4:13-18, Ecclesiastes 9:5 -- does not allow for the NDE interpretation for what has happened in those cases.

Here is what I would call a "legit" NDE - where someone is near death (near the point of being killed) and encounters Christ

So in that example the atheist/communist person was close to dying but was never in a condition where her body was dead.

(BTW - SHARE THAT with your friends especially if they are atheist / non-Christian etc.. it is great)

The other option - allows for the possibility of NDE - but some folks say "well yes that NDE explanation could be, but for some reason I just choose not to fully believe that NDE explanation".

 

[BobRyan]

I
Christ Jesus as The Son of God's ability to do miracles during His first coming is one thing, someone who clinically dies with doctors pronouncing the person dead, but then later is revived (like the Clint Walker example), is another situation.

Indeed that second scenario is not a resurrection from the dead - rather it is reviving someone who is not quite dead and most certainly has not undergone cell death in the brain.

 

[BobRyan]

One of the options "The sleep/dormant" option of John 11, Matt 22, 1 Thess 4:13-18, Ecclesiastes 9:5 -- does not allow for the NDE interpretation for what has happened in those cases.
.

As far as pop usage of the Ecclesiastes 9 Scripture, many don't even know how to properly interpret that,

It is easier to read than you may have at fist supposed.

Eccl 9:5 5 For the living know that they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor do they have a reward any longer, for their memory is forgotten.

Ps 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
On that very day his plans perish.

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

Matt 22 : 31 But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching. 34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees

Most people don't really think through that "proof" Christ gives of the future bodily resurrection .. so they miss the point entirely as to how the Sadducees were "silenced"