What Does the Bible Say About Women Pastors?

[Sammy-San]

I'm not familiar with this. Could you explain it a little, or provide a link to somewhere that explains it?

Some women preachers say truth.
A nurse can't reveal she and person X are nurse and patient, even though its true.

 

[Albion]

We have to be careful when moving the discussion in this direction. There is no reason to keep women from being pastors on account of their ability (or lack of same) to preach.

I know women who have been ordained in churches which have chosen to do that, and from all that I can observe, they are at least as intelligent, wise, learned, and capable at preaching the Gospel and administering the sacraments as any man and are better at all of this than a lot of male clergymen I have met.

That isn't the issue.

The issue here is whether or not God--judging by what the Bible teaches and the church has always considered right to do--has intended for women to be clergy. We know that each of us has a different talent and role. The Bible teaches us that principle.

So, just as the issue isn't whether or not women are equally valued by God, and it isn't about them being leaders in the church in a dozen other ways, it also isn't about their ability to carry out the functions expected of an ordained deacon, elder, or bishop.

 

[RDKirk]

I agree that the direct statement in 1 Timothy 2:12 that Paul does not allow women to teach or have authority over men is more important evidence than the fact that all throughout Scripture God consistently places men in teaching roles than not women. The example supports and reinforces the teaching. But, imo, an example this consistent is pretty strong support.

I have never seen a 1st century style teacher in any congregation I've observed.

First century teachers had authority over their disciples. Real authority, the authority to command and the authority to punish.

I would argue that authority hardly exists at all in most congregations. There are almost no (if any at all) teachers as Paul understood it in churches today.

We have a lot of people "expounding the gospel."

But "teachers?" Nope.

 

[Mark Corbett]

I have never seen a 1st century style teacher in any congregation I've observed.

First century teachers had authority over their disciples. Real authority, the authority to command and the authority to punish.

I would argue that authority hardly exists at all in most congregations. There are almost no (if any at all) teachers as Paul understood it in churches today.

We have a lot of people "expounding the gospel."

But "teachers?" Nope.

I do feel that the Apostles had a type of authority which no teacher in the church has today, at least in some ways.

However, I believe you are exaggerating the difference between 1st century teachers who were not also Apostles and 21st century teachers.

The authority of a teaching is mainly based on the degree to which it aligns with God's truth and God's revealed will. If I preach or teach something contrary to the Bible, to that extent my teaching is empty of any meaningful authority. However, if I teach in harmony with the Bible, my teaching has authority because it is in line with God's will.

Of course, many people do not submit to right teaching. But that is a problem which 1st century teachers also faced.

However, it might be true (it feels this way) that perhaps on average today, at least in American culture, people are less respectful of ANY form of authority, whether it is legitimate or not.

 

[RDKirk]

I do feel that the Apostles had a type of authority which no teacher in the church has today, at least in some ways.

However, I believe you are exaggerating the difference between 1st century teachers who were not also Apostles and 21st century teachers.

No exagerating at all. You can look at the NT itself--look at the authority Jesus exerted over His disciples...even changing their names, if He saw fit. That wasn't unusual, that was par for the course in the master-disciple relationship. It was the kind of relationship Paul had had with his own teacher Gamaliel.

In the pagan world, masters even took sexual liberties with their disciples...which is probably at least one of the reasons Paul did not permit "co-ed" discipleship.

 

[Mark Corbett]

In the pagan world, masters even took sexual liberties with their disciples...which is probably at least one of the reasons Paul did not permit "co-ed" discipleship.

Where does Paul not permit "co-ed" discipleship? What he does not permit is women teaching and having authority over men in the context of church leadership. That's not the same thing.

 

[Sammy-San]

Where does Paul not permit "co-ed" discipleship? What he does not permit is women teaching and having authority over men in the context of church leadership. That's not the same thing.

Isn't discipleship shepherdly?

 

[RDKirk]

Where does Paul not permit "co-ed" discipleship? What he does not permit is women teaching and having authority over men in the context of church leadership. That's not the same thing.

"Teaching and having authority over men" is discipleship. That's what "teaching" was in the 1st century. OTOH, there was no problem with Priscilla "expounding" the gospel to Apollos, because "expounding" has no implication of taking authority over Apollos.

In a letter to Timothy, he points out that older women should be teaching younger women.

 

[Sammy-San]

"Teaching and having authority over men" is discipleship. That's what "teaching" was in the 1st century. OTOH, there was no problem with Priscilla "expounding" the gospel to Apollos, because "expounding" has no implication of taking authority over Apollos.

In a letter to Timothy, he points out that older women should be teaching younger women.

This applies to husbands and wives too?

Define authority.

 

[hedrick]

[deleted - didn't notice how old the posting was]

 

[RDKirk]

This applies to husbands and wives too?

Define authority.

Authority, as seen in scripture (and also in the military) entails an obligation of obedience from one party and accountable responsibility from the other party.

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. -- Hebrews

If a husband considers himself authoritative over his wife, he should be aware that he will then be held accountable for her welfare in all ways by the Lord.

 

[Sammy-San]

Authority, as seen in scripture (and also in the military) entails an obligation of obedience from one party and accountable responsibility from the other party.

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. -- Hebrews

If a husband considers himself authoritative over his wife, he should be aware that he will then be held accountable for her welfare in all ways by the Lord.

So a congregation is obliged to obey their pastor? I heard my youth group leader is not a pastor.

 

[Paidiske]

So a congregation is obliged to obey their pastor?

I would say not. (Although there may be consequences to not obeying in some things, such as not being trusted with particular ministries).

But RDKirk is right that that's the kind of relationship that would have been common between pastor and pastored in the first century.

 

[Sammy-San]

I would say not. (Although there may be consequences to not obeying in some things, such as not being trusted with particular ministries).

But RDKirk is right that that's the kind of relationship that would have been common between pastor and pastored in the first century.

The definition of authority being nebulous makes it hard to define a woman pastor-at least 2 other believers are present I assume.

 

[Paidiske]

The definition of authority being nebulous makes it hard to define a woman pastor-at least 2 other believers are present I assume.

Present... for what?

But yes, defining a pastor, and what authority a pastor does and should have, is very difficult (which is part of why we have so much denominational variation).

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I would say not. (Although there may be consequences to not obeying in some things, such as not being trusted with particular ministries).

But RDKirk is right that that's the kind of relationship that would have been common between pastor and pastored in the first century.

I don't believe that those taught by Jesus believed that or acted according to that. Judaists yes, but not the first Christians.

 

[RDKirk]

So a congregation is obliged to obey their pastor? I heard my youth group leader is not a pastor.

If there is a congregation in which the pastor (noting that "the pastor" is not a 1st century congregation leadership model anyway) has indeed taken full responsibility of the welfare of the members of his congregation--and is effectively making sure all of their needs are met--then the congregation would have the complementary obligation to obey him.

 

[RDKirk]

I don't believe that those taught by Jesus believed that or acted according to that. Judaists yes, but not the first Christians.

Well, if you're saying both Paul and the writer of Hebrews were both "Judaists," that would be a major turnabout.

 

[RDKirk]

The definition of authority being nebulous makes it hard to define a woman pastor-at least 2 other believers are present I assume.

It's not nebulous. Westerners in general and Americans in particular just don't want to hear it.

 

[Sammy-San]

Present... for what?

But yes, defining a pastor, and what authority a pastor does and should have, is very difficult (which is part of why we have so much denominational variation).

Present for her talking.

Or if her premeditating a meeting with her husband for spiritual guidance would make her a pastor.