What Does the Bible Say About Women Pastors?

[Sammy-San]

Thanks very much for that. My Greek is atrocious. I know that older translations were happy to use the inclusive translation when it was believed that Junias was the correct name

I’m Complementarian and I Read Books By Women - Tim Challies

No Exclusive Ability
As gifts are shared across the sexes, so is ability. As God gives gifts to both genders, so does he supply the ability to use those gifts. Women can handle the Word of God every bit as capably as men. Women can accumulate knowledge to the same degree as men and with the same degree of precision. God has made us equal in this way. While the Bible does refer to women as the “weaker vessel” (1 Peter 3:7), it refers here only to physical strength, not strength of character or intellect.

 

[Sammy-San]

It appears that you do not understand the meaning of pseudonymous. It comes from two Greek words.

pseudo = false

epigraphe = name, inscription, ascription

The word pseudonymous means something written under a false name.

The Bible uses the prefix pseudo with other words such as:

pseudoprophetus = false prophet (see Matthew 7:15)

pseudomarturia = false testimony (see Matthew 15:19)

pseudoxristos = false Christ (see Matthew 24:24)

pseudoapostolos = false apostles (2 Cor 11:13)

By claiming that some books in the Bible are pseudonymous you are in fact saying that they are in a significant way false. You effectively undermine the truthfulness and authority of God’s Word.

It is wrong to think that the early church thought it was acceptable to write in the name of an Apostle if you were not actually an apostle. Serapion, a second century bishop in Antioch, wrote:

We, brethren, receive Peter and the other apostles as Christ himself. But those writings which falsely go under their name, as we are well acquainted with them, we reject, and know also, that we have not received such handed down to us. (I found this quote on pp. 68-69 of The Early Christian View of the Pseudepigraphic Writings)​

Although I’m sure it is not your intention to do harm, by sowing doubt about the truthfulness and authority of God’s Word, in a way you yourself are giving pseudomarturia.

Is this girl sinning by preaching truth on a Youtube channel or no? ieva f

Also, whats your view on the female rabbis in Judaism exactly? Forbidden by OT?

 

[Mark Corbett]

Is this girl sinning by preaching truth on a Youtube channel or no? ieva f

When Paul prohibits a woman from teaching men, I think he is talking about the context of a public worship service in a church and a context where the teacher is recognized by the church and is an elder, or is acting in role similar to an elder.

I only watched a tiny sample of the the Youtube channel you linked to. I don't think she is sinning at all. And I don't think it is wrong for a guy to watch her share (which includes some teaching) and benefit from it.

There is a difference between informal teaching and sharing and teaching as an elder/pastor in a church. The second role should have more authority and should be a more trusted source, at least for the members of the church where they serve, because the pastor/elder has gone through a process and been chosen for that role.

That doesn't mean that God doesn't powerfully use informal teaching and sharing. He does. May God bless the teaching being done by the young lady in the videos you linked to.

I think what is clearly ruled out is a woman serving in the position of pastor in a local church.

Other cases are less clear and will depend on the heart attitudes of the people involved, which of course I'm not in a position to judge.

Also, whats your view on the female rabbis in Judaism exactly? Forbidden by OT?

I don't have a view on female rabbis in Judaism. I really don't know anything about this issue. None are mentioned in the Bible.

 

[Sammy-San]

When Paul prohibits a woman from teaching men, I think he is talking about the context of a public worship service in a church and a context where the teacher is recognized by the church and is an elder, or is acting in role similar to an elder.

I only watched a tiny sample of the the Youtube channel you linked to. I don't think she is sinning at all. And I don't think it is wrong for a guy to watch her share (which includes some teaching) and benefit from it.

There is a difference between informal teaching and sharing and teaching as an elder/pastor in a church. The second role should have more authority and should be a more trusted source, at least for the members of the church where they serve, because the pastor/elder has gone through a process and been chosen for that role.

That doesn't mean that God doesn't powerfully use informal teaching and sharing. He does. May God bless the teaching being done by the young lady in the videos you linked to.

I think what is clearly ruled out is a woman serving in the position of pastor in a local church.

Other cases are less clear and will depend on the heart attitudes of the people involved, which of course I'm not in a position to judge.




I don't have a view on female rabbis in Judaism. I really don't know anything about this issue. None are mentioned in the Bible.

What about a "discipleship" book https://www.amazon.com/Ways-Give-Go...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=CA2Z82TBFZF5753PNC7B More formal?

Her youtube videos seem one on one, like a frend. That is why they feel not unbibical and informal to me.

What do you mean by those situations?

 

[Mark Corbett]

What about a "discipleship" book https://www.amazon.com/Ways-Give-Go...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=CA2Z82TBFZF5753PNC7B More formal?

Her youtube videos seem one on one, like a frend. That is why they feel not unbibical and informal to me.

What do you mean by those situations?

In general, I think that a woman writing a book on discipleship or theology is fine.

I don't have an exact list of what is allowed and not because the Bible does not give an exact list. I think that the Bible does clearly rule out a woman serving as a Senior Pastor in a church or as an elder (or whatever a church calls those who fulfill the role of elder/pastor/overseer). Some other roles are so similar that I feel they are also ruled out. Wayne Grudem wrote a good article on principles to decide what roles the Bible allows and encourages women to fill, and which should be only for men. Here is a link to that article.

http://cbmw.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/1-2.pdf

 

[Sammy-San]

Wayne, thanks for taking time to read my OP and to share some thoughts.

We don't actually know if all the authors of the Bible were Jews. Most certainly were. However, it is fairly likely that Luke was a Gentile. Luke wrote Luke and also Acts. The strongest evidence that Luke was a Gentile is found in Col 4:10-14 where Paul identifies the only people with him who were Jews and then goes on to separately mention Luke.

I don't think the fact that the priests and the Twelve were all Jews is completely analogous to them being all men. At the time of the priesthood and the time when Jesus was on earth, God's work was especially focused on the Jewish people as the starting point for reaching all nations. But God's work always included both Jewish men and women, and many women are mentioned in the Old Testament and in the gospels. Yet there is not one clear, positive, explicit example of a woman being used by God to teach gathered groups which included men, and there are many examples of men doing this. I don't think this should be seen as a coincidence.




Yes, praise the Lord, Jesus had many female followers. The question is not whether women should follow Jesus, the question is whether women should serve as pastors teaching men in churches.

As far as the author of Hebrews being female, sure it is possible. But that possibility is only based on not knowing at all who the author of Hebrews is. There is no specific reason to believe the author of Hebrews was a woman.




Neither is there any indication that she taught gathered groups that included men. There just isn't.



Actually, it's far from certain that Junia was an Apostle. All we know of Junia we know from just one verse in the Bible. That verse can very reasonably be translated to mean that she was well known by the Apostles, rather than that she was an outstanding apostle. These different translations bring this out:

CSB Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow countrymen and fellow prisoners. They are noteworthy in the eyes of the apostles, and they were also in Christ before me.

ESV Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

NIV Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Even if she is called an apostle, it could be in the sense of being a messenger, rather than in a sense similar to the twelve. We just don't know.



I agree. It's not a clear case.



It's very clear that part of the role of a pastor is teaching the church. That's why "able to teach" is a qualification (pastors=elders=overseers in NT), see 1 Timothy 3:2.

Yes, the Bible says that there is neither male nor female in Christ. That means there are no distinctions when it comes to our need for salvation and the way in which we are saved. It does not cancel out the verses which teach distinct roles, including this important passage:

NIV 1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

Negative examples?

Also, marital submission was punishment for Eve's sin-what about submission existing later in ministry-I don't fully get the connection. Women obviously are equally gullible. Women, Teaching, and Deception | Marg Mowczko

 

[Mark Corbett]

Negative examples?

I'm not sure there is a clear negative Biblical example of a woman teaching the church in a role similar to a pastor. One possibility is this one, but it's not clear in what way she was "teaching":

ESV Revelation 2:20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.

Also, marital submission was punishment for Eve's sin-what about submission existing later in ministry-I don't fully get the connection. Women obviously are equally gullible. Women, Teaching, and Deception | Marg Mowczko

I don't agree that marital submission was punishment for Eve's sin.

The abuse of a husband's authority (which has tragically been very common) may be part of the results of the curse, but that does not mean the authority itself is part of the curse.

We tend to view any submission as something negative. Because authority is so often abused in this world, it's easy to understand how we view any submission as negative. But submission is not negative in itself. Jesus is forever subject to (same Greek word as "submitted to") the Father:

CSB 1 Corinthians 15:28 And when everything is subject to Christ, then the Son Himself will also be subject to the One who subjected everything to Him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[Sammy-San]

I'm not sure there is a clear negative Biblical example of a woman teaching the church in a role similar to a pastor. One possibility is this one, but it's not clear in what way she was "teaching":

ESV Revelation 2:20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.



I don't agree that marital submission was punishment for Eve's sin.

The abuse of a husband's authority (which has tragically been very common) may be part of the results of the curse, but that does not mean the authority itself is part of the curse.

We tend to view any submission as something negative. Because authority is so often abused in this world, it's easy to understand how we view any submission as negative. But submission is not negative in itself. Jesus is forever subject to (same Greek word as "submitted to") the Father:

CSB 1 Corinthians 15:28 And when everything is subject to Christ, then the Son Himself will also be subject to the One who subjected everything to Him, so that God may be all in all.

What would be a practical example of submission in a sinless world then?

I don't know the original Hebrew or Greek or Genesis 3 16 so I won't say too much on submission being a concept not based on sin.

 

[Mark Corbett]

What would be a practical example of submission in a sinless world then?

Well, we don't know that much about what the New Earth will be like. We will still obey Jesus, and in that way be submitted to Him.

It's possible that some people (like the Apostles) might have positions of authority. They may direct some activities. It's hard to imagine exactly what. What praise song we sing next? How we line up for a victory parade? Who's turn it is to joyfully care for the fruit trees and who's turn it is to joyfully play an instrument? It will all be wonderful and any authority people have will never be misused or abused.

 

[Sammy-San]

I'm not sure there is a clear negative Biblical example of a woman teaching the church in a role similar to a pastor. One possibility is this one, but it's not clear in what way she was "teaching":

ESV Revelation 2:20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.



I don't agree that marital submission was punishment for Eve's sin.

The abuse of a husband's authority (which has tragically been very common) may be part of the results of the curse, but that does not mean the authority itself is part of the curse.

We tend to view any submission as something negative. Because authority is so often abused in this world, it's easy to understand how we view any submission as negative. But submission is not negative in itself. Jesus is forever subject to (same Greek word as "submitted to") the Father:

CSB 1 Corinthians 15:28 And when everything is subject to Christ, then the Son Himself will also be subject to the One who subjected everything to Him, so that God may be all in all.

People say women can't be pastors over men because Eve was deceived. The verse mentions her deception too.

 

[Mark Corbett]

People say women can't be pastors over men because Eve was deceived. The verse mentions her deception too.

Yes, it does. And I totally admit that I do not clearly understand the connection. Nevertheless, I believe there is connection since Paul was inspired to mention it.

 

[Sammy-San]

Yes, it does. And I totally admit that I do not clearly understand the connection. Nevertheless, I believe there is connection since Paul was inspired to mention it.

You don't think that's the cause of it being wrong?

 

[Mark Corbett]

You don't think that's the cause of it being wrong?

I think that is PART of the cause of it being wrong. But Paul also mentions the creation order.

 

[Sammy-San]

I think that is PART of the cause of it being wrong. But Paul also mentions the creation order.

I don't think a ministry restriction is a punishment. Would you agree with that? Its not to punish Eve through us.

 

[Mark Corbett]

I don't think a ministry restriction is a punishment. Would you agree with that? Its not to punish Eve through us.

I agree. And women can and should be involved in MANY types of ministry in MANY settings.

 

[Sammy-San]

I agree. And women can and should be involved in MANY types of ministry in MANY settings.

Do you think there's no real explanation beyond it's just the way it is?

I don't know about if the rule is to make a statement, or because original sin is in us, or anything like that.

With priscilla and apollos, is the issue that it was 1 and 1 and not in a group? I've learned some truth from mixed small groups discussion-that is okay to benefit from.

 

[Sammy-San]

Well, we don't know that much about what the New Earth will be like. We will still obey Jesus, and in that way be submitted to Him.

It's possible that some people (like the Apostles) might have positions of authority. They may direct some activities. It's hard to imagine exactly what. What praise song we sing next? How we line up for a victory parade? Who's turn it is to joyfully care for the fruit trees and who's turn it is to joyfully play an instrument? It will all be wonderful and any authority people have will never be misused or abused.

What about a group discussion at a youth group small group where a girl shares wisdom on something?

 

[Mark Corbett]

What about a group discussion at a youth group small group where a girl shares wisdom on something?

Yes, I think that's not only acceptable, but good and right and should be encouraged.

 

[Sammy-San]

Yes, I think that's not only acceptable, but good and right and should be encouraged.

How would you respond to the speaking truth justification for women preachers? One of my analogies would be a nurse or college following confidentiality rules.

 

[Mark Corbett]

How would you respond to the speaking truth justification for women preachers? One of my analogies would be a nurse or college following confidentiality rules.

I'm not familiar with this. Could you explain it a little, or provide a link to somewhere that explains it?