JackRT

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That's nice.

Nice? So? You approve of males "gossip, back-biting, grudges, exclusion, the whole program. Apparently some days it was like any average DAR meeting" but not women? To be clear I approve of neither, but it is "nice" to know where you stand.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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1. The Consistent Biblical Example

Bible%2BWomen%2BPastors%2B2.jpg

It is dangerous to refer to the state of a person who fulfils a role. E.g. Priests were all Jews, The Twelve were all Jews; the authors of the Bible were all Jews.

Conclusion: Only Jews can be pastors.

Clearly nonsense, which would apply to your reasoning here too.

Also Jesus had many female followers (Joanna, Mary etc.). And it is possible that the author of Hebrews was female (hence the complete anonimity) .

In the Bible, all the examples of people who were called by God to teach gathered groups His Word were men.

Priscilla was a teacher - there is no indication that the only people she taught were individuals. Junia was an apostle, she would have taught. In the OT it certainly looks like Deborah was teaching, though it is not a clear case.

The bottom line, however is that is is not clear what a 'pastor' is in the context of the church so proclaiming absolutely that women can't be pastors when in christ there is neither male nor female etc., is a dangerous pastime.
 
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Mark Corbett

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It is dangerous to refer to the state of a person who fulfils a role. E.g. Priests were all Jews, The Twelve were all Jews; the authors of the Bible were all Jews.

Conclusion: Only Jews can be pastors.

Wayne, thanks for taking time to read my OP and to share some thoughts.

We don't actually know if all the authors of the Bible were Jews. Most certainly were. However, it is fairly likely that Luke was a Gentile. Luke wrote Luke and also Acts. The strongest evidence that Luke was a Gentile is found in Col 4:10-14 where Paul identifies the only people with him who were Jews and then goes on to separately mention Luke.

I don't think the fact that the priests and the Twelve were all Jews is completely analogous to them being all men. At the time of the priesthood and the time when Jesus was on earth, God's work was especially focused on the Jewish people as the starting point for reaching all nations. But God's work always included both Jewish men and women, and many women are mentioned in the Old Testament and in the gospels. Yet there is not one clear, positive, explicit example of a woman being used by God to teach gathered groups which included men, and there are many examples of men doing this. I don't think this should be seen as a coincidence.


Also Jesus had many female followers (Joanna, Mary etc.). And it is possible that the author of Hebrews was female (hence the complete anonimity) .

Yes, praise the Lord, Jesus had many female followers. The question is not whether women should follow Jesus, the question is whether women should serve as pastors teaching men in churches.

As far as the author of Hebrews being female, sure it is possible. But that possibility is only based on not knowing at all who the author of Hebrews is. There is no specific reason to believe the author of Hebrews was a woman.


Priscilla was a teacher - there is no indication that the only people she taught were individuals.

Neither is there any indication that she taught gathered groups that included men. There just isn't.

Junia was an apostle, she would have taught.

Actually, it's far from certain that Junia was an Apostle. All we know of Junia we know from just one verse in the Bible. That verse can very reasonably be translated to mean that she was well known by the Apostles, rather than that she was an outstanding apostle. These different translations bring this out:

CSB Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow countrymen and fellow prisoners. They are noteworthy in the eyes of the apostles, and they were also in Christ before me.

ESV Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

NIV Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Even if she is called an apostle, it could be in the sense of being a messenger, rather than in a sense similar to the twelve. We just don't know.

In the OT it certainly looks like Deborah was teaching, though it is not a clear case.

I agree. It's not a clear case.

The bottom line, however is that is is not clear what a 'pastor' is in the context of the church so proclaiming absolutely that women can't be pastors when in christ there is neither male nor female etc., is a dangerous pastime.

It's very clear that part of the role of a pastor is teaching the church. That's why "able to teach" is a qualification (pastors=elders=overseers in NT), see 1 Timothy 3:2.

Yes, the Bible says that there is neither male nor female in Christ. That means there are no distinctions when it comes to our need for salvation and the way in which we are saved. It does not cancel out the verses which teach distinct roles, including this important passage:

NIV 1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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We don't actually know if all the authors of the Bible were Jews. Most certainly were. However, it is fairly likely that Luke was a Gentile. Luke wrote Luke and also Acts. The strongest evidence that Luke was a Gentile is found in Col 4:10-14 where Paul identifies the only people with him who were Jews and then goes on to separately mention Luke.

Luke's knowledge of the OT is pretty high. It is arguable whether he was a gentile or a diaspora Jew. Regardless, I don't think the point that you were making about women being among the groups is good enough to argue this point. One might argue on the same basis that none of the people who are in those groups were caucasian therefore caucasians can't teach. You are on much better ground when you quote from Timothy rather than appealing to circumstances, particularly when those circumstances derive from the culture in which the events took place. If a 'teacher' today gathered together a group of men and women, nobody would bat an eyelid, but had Jesus done it, even the Romans would have been scandalised. And if the scandal was so great, Jesus' message would have been lost.

As it was the female followers he had was pretty scandalous.

I don't think the fact that the priests and the Twelve were all Jews is completely analogous to them being all men. At the time of the priesthood and the time when Jesus was on earth, God's work was especially focused on the Jewish people as the starting point for reaching all nations. But God's work always included both Jewish men and women, and many women are mentioned in the Old Testament and in the gospels. Yet there is not one clear, positive, explicit example of a woman being used by God to teach gathered groups which included men, and there are many examples of men doing this. I don't think this should be seen as a coincidence.

There is not one clear example of a disabled person teaching, despite the fact that they were clearly around at the time.

Are disabled people not allowed to teach either.

The thing is Mark, that I object to this line of reasoning as it is not explicit in its meaning. It treats the circumstances in which the things happened as though it were part of the law... which it is not. To use this argument in support of your views as derived from scripture is reasonable, because it is supportive, but you start with it which implies that it is the most important part of the argument and to me it is flawed.

Actually, it's far from certain that Junia was an Apostle. All we know of Junia we know from just one verse in the Bible. That verse can very reasonably be translated to mean that she was well known by the Apostles, rather than that she was an outstanding apostle. These different translations bring this out

A more literal translation is much less ambiguous indicating that the NIV is right and the other two wearing their cultural bias on their sleeve (which is a shame).

The irony of it is that earlier translations changed the name of Junia to Junius because they did not believe a woman could be an apostle... which helped fuel the idea that women are somehow substandard.

Even if she is called an apostle, it could be in the sense of being a messenger, rather than in a sense similar to the twelve. We just don't know.

This is eisegesis. You are imposing your views that women can't possibly have taught in the NT on to the text rather than letting the text inform you what was happening: Junia, an apostle (probable) would have taught groups of people (which is what apostles did). It is wishful thinking.

It's very clear that part of the role of a pastor is teaching the church. That's why "able to teach" is a qualification (pastors=elders=overseers in NT), see 1 Timothy 3:2.

I don't think that it is all that clear. Ephesians lists 'Teacher' as a separate 'ministry' and Pastor actually means shepherd and in the context refers to a carer and leader. The implications are that all of the ministries have some aspect of teaching, which is why Junia is significant.

Yes, the Bible says that there is neither male nor female in Christ. That means there are no distinctions when it comes to our need for salvation and the way in which we are saved.

But apparently now the slaves can't teach, nor the gentiles. For we are all one in Christ Jesus, but not in the church which makes the distinction... precisely what Paul (who wrote those words) berated the Corinthians for doing when they took communion.

Consider another passage: Acts 2, 'I will pour out my spirit on all people... both men and women'. God does not distinguish between men and women when the Holy Spirit comes and offers his gifts (all disciples were present and began speaking in tongues), which includes teaching... only the church appears to make that distinction.



It does not cancel out the verses which teach distinct roles, including this important
passage:

NIV 1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

Paul to Timothy: *I* do not permit a woman....

It is also difficult to reconcile with his commendation of Junia, Phoebe, Priscilla, Mary for their varied roles, although here I think it is more wishful thinking on my part. An argument against 1 Tim 2 is much more fraught with difficulties than your earlier point about none of the apostles being female.
 
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Mark Corbett

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The thing is Mark, that I object to this line of reasoning as it is not explicit in its meaning. It treats the circumstances in which the things happened as though it were part of the law... which it is not. To use this argument in support of your views as derived from scripture is reasonable, because it is supportive, but you start with it which implies that it is the most important part of the argument and to me it is flawed.

I agree that the direct statement in 1 Timothy 2:12 that Paul does not allow women to teach or have authority over men is more important evidence than the fact that all throughout Scripture God consistently places men in teaching roles than not women. The example supports and reinforces the teaching. But, imo, an example this consistent is pretty strong support.
 
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Mark Corbett

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It is also difficult to reconcile with his commendation of Junia, Phoebe, Priscilla, Mary for their varied roles, although here I think it is more wishful thinking on my part. An argument against 1 Tim 2 is much more fraught with difficulties than your earlier point about none of the apostles being female.

I agree that women had varied roles, and that those roles are very valuable.

However, none of the women you mentioned are said to be teaching or having authority over men in the church.

Phoebe is a good case in point. I wrote a separate blog post on this, which you may find here:

Was Phoebe a Pastor According to the Bible?

Was%2BPhoebe%2Ba%2BPastor%2BRomans%2B16%2BHyatt%2Blook.jpg
 
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Sammy-San

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I agree that the direct statement in 1 Timothy 2:12 that Paul does not allow women to teach or have authority over men is more important evidence than the fact that all throughout Scripture God consistently places men in teaching roles than not women. The example supports and reinforces the teaching. But, imo, an example this consistent is pretty strong support.

response? Fall of man - Wikipedia " why would the same forgiveness and ministry be denied women" (for the sins of their foremother eons ago)?"
 
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Mark Corbett

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response? Fall of man - Wikipedia " why would the same forgiveness and ministry be denied women" (for the sins of their foremother eons ago)?"

Your question connects verse 12 and 14, but seems to skip over verse 13.

1 Timothy 2: 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

The first reason Paul gives for not allowing women to teach or assume authority over men (in the context of the church) is that Adam was formed first. Being formed second is not a sin and does not need forgiveness. It seems that Paul views the order of creation as indicating a difference in roles in terms of authority in the church (and in other passages this difference applies in the home). This appears to be part of the original creation order BEFORE the fall.

As to verse 14, I admit I do not clearly and precisely understand it how and why it is connected to women not teaching men. But not clearly and precisely understanding the logic behind verse 14 does not lead me to deny the straightforward teaching in verse 12 or the explanation in verse 13.

Further, I do not see the prohibition on women teaching and having authority over men in the church as a type of punishment. I see it as part of God's good creation order where men and women are equally loved and valued in God's eyes but have different roles.

Women being in submission to their husbands in marriage and to male eldership in a church is not a punishment or demeaning. It is parallel to Jesus being under the authority of the Father:

ESV 1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

The fact that God the Father is the head of Christ is not some kind of punishment for Christ. The fact that a husband is the head of his wife in their marriage is also not a punishment. (But if this relationship is abused, as it often is, than that is a consequence of sin, and God will hold husbands accountable if they use their authority in ways that are selfish or harsh rather than loving.) And I believe the same principle applies to men leading and teaching the church. It's not a punishment.
 
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gordonhooker

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It appears that you do not understand the meaning of pseudonymous. It comes from two Greek words.

pseudo = false

epigraphe
= name, inscription, ascription

The word pseudonymous means something written under a false name.

The Bible uses the prefix pseudo with other words such as:

pseudoprophetus = false prophet (see Matthew 7:15)

pseudomarturia = false testimony (see Matthew 15:19)

pseudoxristos = false Christ (see Matthew 24:24)

pseudoapostolos = false apostles (2 Cor 11:13)

By claiming that some books in the Bible are pseudonymous you are in fact saying that they are in a significant way false. You effectively undermine the truthfulness and authority of God’s Word.

It is wrong to think that the early church thought it was acceptable to write in the name of an Apostle if you were not actually an apostle. Serapion, a second century bishop in Antioch, wrote:

We, brethren, receive Peter and the other apostles as Christ himself. But those writings which falsely go under their name, as we are well acquainted with them, we reject, and know also, that we have not received such handed down to us. (I found this quote on pp. 68-69 of The Early Christian View of the Pseudepigraphic Writings)​

Although I’m sure it is not your intention to do harm, by sowing doubt about the truthfulness and authority of God’s Word, in a way you yourself are giving pseudomarturia.


Not all biblical scholars would agree with what you are saying including myself.
 
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Mark Corbett

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Not all biblical scholars would agree with what you are saying including myself.

Of course not all biblical scholars agree about this. They don't all agree that Christ literally, physically rose from the dead. They don't all agree that the virgin birth was really a virgin birth. They don't all agree that the Bible is entirely true. "Experts" denying Biblical truths is nothing new:

NIV Mark 12:18 Then the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question.
 
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gordonhooker

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Of course not all biblical scholars agree about this. They don't all agree that Christ literally, physically rose from the dead. They don't all agree that the virgin birth was really a virgin birth. They don't all agree that the Bible is entirely true. "Experts" denying Biblical truths is nothing new:

NIV Mark 12:18 Then the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question.


But of course what you believe is biblical truth. Nothing new here I have heard that many times before from individuals and groups.
 
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Mark Corbett

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But of course what you believe is biblical truth. Nothing new here I have heard that many times before from individuals and groups.

There are many difficult questions where reasonable Bible believing Christians come to different conclusions. But here's one which should not be difficult:

Who wrote 1 Timothy?

NIV 1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
 
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gordonhooker

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There are many difficult questions where reasonable Bible believing Christians come to different conclusions. But here's one which should not be difficult:

Who wrote 1 Timothy?

NIV 1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,

I agree with Mark Powells assessments on the Pastoral Epistles a summary of authorship which can be found here: http://assets.bakerpublishinggroup....assets/files/499/original/hyperlink-21-01.pdf

I also find this comment of yours rather strange "Bible believing Christians" - what do you actually mean by that statement? Are you trying to say there are Christians who do not agree that the Bible is an authoritative book that contains proclamations about the nature of God?
 
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Radagast

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It is definitely certain that Junia is being called an apostle in the passage.

Well, no. It's hotly debated. Many translations have "respected by the apostles" or something similar (and there are reason in terms of Greek grammar for doing so).
 
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Mark Corbett

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I also find this comment of yours rather strange "Bible believing Christians" - what do you actually mean by that statement? Are you trying to say there are Christians who do not agree that the Bible is an authoritative book that contains proclamations about the nature of God?

I believe that that all Christians should come to the point where we do not merely believe that the Bible "contains proclamations", but believe that it consists entirely of the Word of God. Along with this, we should come to trust that it is entirely true.

I believe that all Christians leaders and teachers should treat Scripture the way Scripture treats Scripture: always true, always trustworthy, always authoritative.

Sadly, there are many who identify as Christian teachers and leaders, yet who speak and teach in ways which undermine the truth and authority of God's Word.

An example would be causing people to doubt that Paul wrote any of the letters of the Bible which specifically and explicitly state that Paul wrote them. This undermines confidence in the trustworthiness, authority, and truth of the bible.

It's fine to examine all kinds of evidence, but a mature Christian should have come to the conclusion that the Bible is God's Word, contains God's words, and does not contain lies or deception. If someone other than myself wrote an email and claimed that it was from me and included false information about my life and activities, that would be deceitful. If someone other that Paul wrote 1 Timothy (for example) in Paul's name that that would be deceitful and undermine the authority of the Bible.

Undermining the authority of God's Word is nothing new. The first example is found in these words: "Did God really say . . ." It went downhill from there.
 
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Radagast

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A more literal translation is much less ambiguous indicating that the NIV is right and the other two wearing their cultural bias on their sleeve (which is a shame).

That's not quite true. The construct episēmoi en tois apostolois does not necessarily imply membership of the named group. Essentially the same construct is used by Euripides to say that the goddess Aphrodite is "famous among mortals" (though obviously not a mortal herself).

The best translation is perhaps the NLT's "highly respected among the apostles," which preserves the ambiguity.

The irony of it is that earlier translations changed the name of Junia to Junius

I think you mean that they changed it to Junias. But the name in the passage is actually Junian (in the accusative case). This could correspond either to Junia (a woman) or Junias (a man). The former is now considered more likely, but absolutely nothing in the original Greek text indicates the gender of Junia/Junias (although a good guess might be that Andronicus/Junia are a husband/wife team like Aquila/Priscilla).
 
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Mark Corbett

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The best translation is perhaps the NLT's "highly respected among the apostles," which preserves the ambiguity.

Indeed!

Radagast, I agree with your specific point that the NLT's translation is good because, like the original Greek, it leaves room for either of these interpretations:

1. Junia was an apostle, and among the apostles she was highly respected
2. Junia was not an apostle, but was highly respected by those who are apostles.

More generally, it's amazing (and a little sad) in my opinion how much weight some place on Junia. Here is the ONLY verse that speaks of her (I've included several translations for a reason):

CSB Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow countrymen and fellow prisoners. They are noteworthy in the eyes of the apostles, and they were also in Christ before me.

NIV Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

RSV Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners; they are men of note among the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.


There is not enough context here to be certain of the following:

1. Does the name "Junia" (or "Junias", per RSV) refer to a man or a woman? If Paul had written a few more verses about him/her, he most likely would have used either a masculine or feminine pronoun and then we would know for certain. As it is there are arguments that support both possibilities.

2. Are Andronicus and Junia Apostles themselves, or are they just well known to those who are Apostles? Again, there just is not enough context to be certain. Comparisons of similar Greek wording allows either possibility, although I lean towards thinking the data slightly favors thinking that they were not apostles themselves. The CSV and ESV translators favored this interpretation. But I don't think we can know for sure.

3. IF Junia is an apostle, does Paul mean that she (or he) is an apostle in the same sense that Peter, John, and himself are apostles? This is also not certain because the word "apostle" in Greek has a range of meaning. It can refer to a messenger sent by a church, as appears to be the case in Philippians 2:25. It does not always refer to someone with "apostolic authority" to teach and lead churches.

4. Even IF Junia is a woman, and IF she was an apostle, and IF she was an Apostle with special authority who was an eyewitness of Christ's resurrection like Paul, it is entirely possible that she would use her gifting and position to minister to the many women in the churches and not to the men. Doing so would result in her ministry being harmonious with the teaching of the Bible. This could especially make sense if she was married to Andonicus and they ministered together, both teaching, but with different groups.

My main point is that we know way too little about Junia to make a major point about her (or him) at all. It is a sign of just how weak the egalitarian position is in terms of Biblical support that they make such a big deal of Junia, even naming whole groups and projects after her (if Junia(s) is even a her!).
 
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Sammy-San

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Your question connects verse 12 and 14, but seems to skip over verse 13.

1 Timothy 2: 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

The first reason Paul gives for not allowing women to teach or assume authority over men (in the context of the church) is that Adam was formed first. Being formed second is not a sin and does not need forgiveness. It seems that Paul views the order of creation as indicating a difference in roles in terms of authority in the church (and in other passages this difference applies in the home). This appears to be part of the original creation order BEFORE the fall.

As to verse 14, I admit I do not clearly and precisely understand it how and why it is connected to women not teaching men. But not clearly and precisely understanding the logic behind verse 14 does not lead me to deny the straightforward teaching in verse 12 or the explanation in verse 13.

Further, I do not see the prohibition on women teaching and having authority over men in the church as a type of punishment. I see it as part of God's good creation order where men and women are equally loved and valued in God's eyes but have different roles.

Women being in submission to their husbands in marriage and to male eldership in a church is not a punishment or demeaning. It is parallel to Jesus being under the authority of the Father:

ESV 1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

The fact that God the Father is the head of Christ is not some kind of punishment for Christ. The fact that a husband is the head of his wife in their marriage is also not a punishment. (But if this relationship is abused, as it often is, than that is a consequence of sin, and God will hold husbands accountable if they use their authority in ways that are selfish or harsh rather than loving.) And I believe the same principle applies to men leading and teaching the church. It's not a punishment.
The Sin of Women Preachers!

The Bible does not reveal Satan’s motive for beginning with Eve. It just records the fact that Eve was the first to be tempted and deceived, and the first to sin. We are not told whether it was part of a deliberate strategy of Satan, or if his choice was just random. But the fact that we do not know for sure why Satan chose Eve does not negate the force of 1st Timothy 2:14, which says that Eve’s being the one who was deceived does have something to do with women’s being prohibited from teaching men and having authority over men in the New Testament church.

The really significant point is that (according to 1st Timothy 2:14) it is not the transgression itself, but the deception that is being held against Eve. The fact that Eve was deceived by the Devil is in some way related to the fact that women are not permitted to teach men and have authority over men in the church. We simply cannot deny this connection. The problem, though, is to explain it. Exactly what is the connection?

It is possible that there is something inherent in women’s nature that somehow makes them more vulnerable to deception concerning spiritual matters and; therefore, less qualified to teach men and have authority over men in the context of the church. This would be consistent with Peter’s description of woman as the "weaker vessel" (1st Peter 3:7). Peter does not explain the nature of this "weakness," nor does he suggest that it constitutes some kind of flaw or fault in women. Whatever it is, it would be consistent with the role for which God created woman in the first place. That is to say, the characteristics that make a woman more strongly suited for her intended role in the family and church, make her weaker with reference to what is required for duties of headship and leadership. Such characteristics probably have to do more with her emotional rather than her intellectual nature.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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That's not quite true. The construct episēmoi en tois apostolois does not necessarily imply membership of the named group. Essentially the same construct is used by Euripides to say that the goddess Aphrodite is "famous among mortals" (though obviously not a mortal herself).

The best translation is perhaps the NLT's "highly respected among the apostles," which preserves the ambiguity.



I think you mean that they changed it to Junias. But the name in the passage is actually Junian (in the accusative case). This could correspond either to Junia (a woman) or Junias (a man). The former is now considered more likely, but absolutely nothing in the original Greek text indicates the gender of Junia/Junias (although a good guess might be that Andronicus/Junia are a husband/wife team like Aquila/Priscilla).
Thanks very much for that. My Greek is atrocious. I know that older translations were happy to use the inclusive translation when it was believed that Junias was the correct name :)
 
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