Originally posted by Ben johnson
Exactly that. I think we both agree that "salvation is by belief"---our difference, is that I understand that "saving-belief" comes from one's own heart, you understand that "saving-belief" comes from GOD.
You don't have the least problem saying that you're saved because of something you do, do you? That's very sad to me. It shows that the thought that God could save you without your help is so foreign to you as to be offensive. Not to mention, the concept that a fallen human could make a righteous decision makes me wonder why you think Jesus actually had to die for you. If His death appeased God's wrath but you still needed to personally do something to obtain salvation for you, for Ben, then the death of Jesus did nothing for you specifically. The catalyst for
your salvation was
your decision. You talk about belief like it's just this thing separate of yourself.
Okay, Ben, let's say you're sitting there on your couch one day. Let's pretend that you aren't saved (We're just pretending
) The thought of whether Jesus paid for your sins enters your mind? Are you saved at that point? No. You haven't made a decision to accept it as real according to your theology, right? You say, "Hmmm...I wonder...maybe it could be true." Are you saved now? Nope. Not according to your theology. So now, you say, "You know what, I think it happened just like the Bible says." Are you saved now? Nope. Not according to your theology. You have said, on numerous occasions, that
the reason you are saved is because you "confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe with your heart that He has risen from the dead..." right? So, why were
you saved. Was it because Jesus died? Did that act save you? Nope. Not according to your theology.
You were not saved until
you confessed that He is your Savior. I tell ya bro, you're a smart guy, maybe too smart. But, if you can't see that you credit
your actions with your salvation then you're not only smart, but blind too.
Heh heh!
If "THAT" had meant, "THAT GRACE", then in the Greek the two words' genders woulda matched---but they do not.
I kinda figured you were going to say that "THAT" did not refer to grace, and that's okay. I agree. "THAT" refers to faith, right? The faith that is "not of yourself"
is God's grace. My pastor explains this very well. God's grace is just another way of saying God's help. His grace comes in the form most needed at the time. For instance, if you are short of money and cannot pay the rent, God's grace would come in the form of money. Money is what you needed. Grace is just the "capsule" that brings to you what God deems you most need. Now man, in his fallen state, most needed what? Faith. Why? Because he had none, "of himself." So, grace was the "capsule" that brought faith. Let me be clear. God is the one who decides what we need, not us. If we cannot pay the rent because we have squandered our money then God may not give us money because, in that instance, He has determined that what we most need to learn from our mistake is responsibility, rather than mercy.
Suppose God really does love everyone (in the sense that he desires ALL to be saved); suppose that John really intended to say "propitiation CAME to all men" (just as Paul meant to say "justification CAME to all men in Rom5:17-18)---but only those who RECEIVE Christ are PROPITIATED and are JUSTIFIED---would that not put all the verses in perfect harmony?
Ben, Ben, Ben...a propitiation is not an
opportunity. A propitiation is something that
atones. It doesn't provide and
opportunity for atonement. It atones. It does exactly what it supposed to do.
Listen bro. I tell you this with all sincerity. You put a whole lot of stock in your actions leading to salvation. I don't believe that means you aren't saved. I'm sure you probably are. I just think that your pride in your actions being the catalyst for your salvation is truly keeping you from glorifying God completely and probably causes you to be less thankful because you don't seem to believe you were as separated from God as you were when you were fallen.
I pray that this doesn't fall on deaf ears. I mean no offense and hope only for your best.
God bless