Hi, Jephunneh. What is your "take" on 1Tim4:16, 2Jn1:7-9, Jude1:21, Luke 21:19, and 1Pet1:9-11?
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Originally posted by Ben johnson
The MOMENT YOU WERE SAVED, was the moment when you CONSCIOUSLY received Christ into your heart, surrendering your will to His Lordship. You CONSCOUSLY repented and threw yourself at His feet, and said, "Oh LORD, take me and mold me as Thou wilt---I submit to You, hold nothing back, I surrender completely. Be Thou my Lord and Master, teach me to be a willing and righteous servant." Did you ever actually do that? Do you walk daily with your hand in His, actively seeking His presence? Do you praise and worship Him?
Originally posted by Ben johnson
Ohhh, my bad! :o That's what I get for staying up to the wee hours of the morning! I of COURSE meant to say "THAT" does not refer to "THAT FAITH". As you know, I believe faith comes from the person's own heart, not froma gift of God.
I must contrain my beliefs to follow the Bible. Technically, I did NOTHING to save myself, He did it ALL, on the CROSS---but I very much RECEIVED it by my own volition.
Says so in John1:12, 10:9. I think I have often quoted Romans 5:17-18---that passage nicely sums up salvation, and strongly refutes "predestination". It says, "those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and RECEIVE the gift of righteousness"---so grace is not COMPELLED, it is RECEIVED.
Further, the "so as/even so" comparative form of the verse plainly equates the universalness of condemnation through Adam, with the universalness of justification through Jesus.
When I RECEIVE Christ, it's not that I DO something, it's rather that I accept what HE has done!
Jesus plainly asserts "if I be lifed up I will CALL ("helkuo-drag") ALL MEN to Myself.
We may be depraved, we may be totally depraved---but if He calls ALL, then He brings each to a point where he/she CAN make the conscious choice.
Do you deny that John12:32 says "I will draw ALL to Myself"?
Now take what you just said---"why do you think Jesus actually died for you"? Why do you, Don? As I understand "PE", you think God had ALREADY CHOSEN you, so the Cross didn't really ACCOMPLISH anything---you were already "one of the ELECT". PE believes the Cross was not effective, only demonstrative (nothing more than pageantry). While I, on the other hand, believe the Cross was effective. Do you see the difference?
But---John says "He is the propitiation for the HOLOS KOSMOS whole world". Do you agree that "HOLOS KOSMOS" cannot mean "only SOME of ALL TYPES"?
"What do you think Jesus meant in Matt22:14, by 'MANY are CALLED but FEW are CHOSEN'?" Do you think there is some OTHER meaning here, but that many CALLED <B>will not be chosen</B>?
The MOMENT YOU WERE SAVED, was the moment when you CONSCIOUSLY received Christ into your heart, surrendering your will to His Lordship. You CONSCOUSLY repented and threw yourself at His feet, and said, "Oh LORD, take me and mold me as Thou wilt---I submit to You, hold nothing back, I surrender completely. Be Thou my Lord and Master, teach me to be a willing and righteous servant."
Did you ever actually do that? Do you walk daily with your hand in His, actively seeking His presence? Do you praise and worship Him?
Originally posted by Knight
If you don't believe in the OSAS doctrine then how can you grow as a Christian? Seems to me, if you could loose your salvation, you would be constantly trying to get it back. There would be no growth as a Christian because you have no assurance of salvation. You would be constantly at the first step.
Just my observation.
Originally posted by cthoma11
Just a thought from how OSAS explain backsliding when they say the person was never really saved. Doesn't this explanation have the same implications on the assurance of salvation? How would you ever know that you were indeed saved, rather than the one who was not truly saved and eventually it was going to show when you appeared to have backslid? I used 'appeared' because according to the theory you didn't really backslide because you were never really saved.
To me this has the same problem with assurance. Hebrews 10:26 talks about deliberate sin and I think this helps the OSNAS position in regards to assurance.
In another post, I stated somewhat awkwardly that I didn't think that the moderate positions on either side were really that different in effect. The OSAS says he was never really saved, the OSNAS says he backslid and willingly gave up his salvation. The bottom line result is the same, regardless if you truly understand the details of the mechanism.
I think the extreme positions on either side are clearly wrong. OSAS and free license to live the most evil life possible as well as OSNAS and every unintentional sin causes you to loose salvation.
Regards,
Clinton
Originally posted by Reformationist
Hey Clinton, I'm not sure I totally understand what you're saying here but I would like to add something. To make a decision about whether someone is saved or not saved at any point in their lives has never, and will never, be our job. I think we should look at all people as if they are "in the family until they are out," not "out of the family until they are in." That kind of thinking could very easily cause us to treat them differently than someone we stongly believe is saved.
God bless
Originally posted by cthoma11
Thanks. For the most part I agree whole heartedly. Sometimes, we are to judge though; positions of leadership; for example deacons comes to mind (... how can you tell that I'm studying Titus right now).
Your comment about how we treat people is bang on.
Regards,
Clinton
That really is what it is about, Stephen. If you are living righteously, in fellowship with Him---then you are saved, there is no question. "He who HAS the Son, HAS THE LIFE---I write this that you may KNOW you have eternal life." (1Jn5:12-13)I know that I have accepted Him as my Lord and Savior!
In my NAS Bible, "THAT" is footnoted, as "THAT SALVATION". Salvation is indeed "not of ourselves"---it is a gift from God. Yet, a gift must be received---and a received gift, is still from, and of, the giver---not of the receiver.Okay. What does "THAT" refer to?
I believe that "condemnation came to all men, through Adam's sin"; thus we inherit a fallen, rebellious nature. Pelagius believed that mankind had GOODNESS in him, and could come to God by himself---this is denied this in John6:44: "No one comes to Me unless the Father DRAGS him.". Yet, the argument becomes, "Does GOD drag only SOME, or ALL to Jesus? Of course in this passage, the main POINT Jesus is making, is that He is EQUAL to God.And, a couple of questions on this, how can faith come from the heart of a fallen, depraved creature? Do you believe the nature of man, not man's relationship with God, was affected at all by the Fall? If so, how?
Salvation is defined, as RECEIVING CHRIST. IOW, BELIEVING. Jn1:12 tells us that we who RECEIVE Christ, BELIEVE, gain the right to become adopted sons. Have you ever done a search on, "SAVE YOURSELF" in the Bible? It's there---in Matthew 24:13, Luke 21:19, 1Tim4:16, 1Pet1:9. Contextually it is not presenting the PERSON as their own SAVIOR---but only affirming the person's own role in his salvation. So too, Jude, verse 21: "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, awaiting anxiously the mercy of Christ to eternal life." Because salvation-DEFINED is fellowship (1Jn1:3,6), "KEEPING OURSELVES IN HIS LOVE" is identical, to "ABIDING IN HIM". And abiding is salvation (1Jn4:15-16). Thus in John 15:6, when it says "if anyone does NOT abide in Me, he is cut off ...and cast into the fire"---it means much more than just "those who HAVE NEVER abided"---for to be CUT OFF, one must first be JOINED.Answer this question: Were YOU saved because Jesus died on the Cross? If not, did YOU have to do anything to obtain salvation for YOURSELF?
I am SENTIENT---self aware, capable of independent thought. I am not a "fatalistic piece of debris, flotsam and jetsum in the river of time, helpless in where I am cast"---I have volition. I can come and go as I decide. "Total Depravity" is akin to "fatalism", that people have no choice in their destiny; while the argument about our "inheritted fallen nature" is fact, the argument also exists that He BRINGS us to the point where we CAN decide---we can buck the current of the river. Buck it, perhaps---but not lift ourselves FROM it. The best we can do, is LIFT UP OUR HAND---it is HIM who pulls us from before the falls.Did all men receive the same measure of Grace? And if so, what is the reason that YOU believed unto salvation? Did you get any extra Grace? Was there something different about YOU that caused you to respond more favorably to that Grace? And when you answer that, please include how you feel that is not boasting.
Justification COMES to all men---in the PERSON of Jesus Christ; in Rom5:17-18, it says "justification came to all men THROUGH ONE ACT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS"---it is speaking of CHRIST-ON-THE-CROSS.Ben...justification comes to the saved. Do you know what "being justified" means? It means being pronounced just. Do you believe all mankind have been pronounced just?
Yes I believe that ALL men are called. In the parable of Matt22, which is ALLEGORY of HEAVEN and SALVATION, everyone ended up being called. Who then gained admittance to Heaven? ONLY those who RECEIVED the invitation (by coming), AND who clothed themselves with righteousness. Jesus said, "Many are CALLED, but FEW are CHOSEN". I cannot see how that coud mean anything BUT that there are many CALLED, who are not CHOSEN. The parable seems clear to me---how could it mean else?First, do you believe ALL men are called to Christ? Second, what do you think is the result of that call? Third, if man as you say, from his own free will, chooses Christ, why is it that he needs to be dragged?
It is not that I "set out to refute you"---but, rather, that I see Scripture saying what it says. As I just quoted, how can Matt22:14 mean anything, BUT "many CALLED will not be CHOSEN"?I only ask that you prayerfully consider my view as we discuss it instead of just trying to refute me.
I think the "DRAWING" conveys the exact same concept as in Matt22, for the "CALLING"...So, what purpose, in your opinion, does the "drawing of the LORD GOD" serve? Is it just to let man know of his need for a Savior?
I'm only struggling to understand why some believe that His death, was SELECTIVE---only for a FEW rather than ALL (or all who would believe).You asked, "Why do I think Jesus died for me specifically," right? I have absolutely no clue. I know that I didn't do anything to deserve it, like make the right decision. I'll tell you it certainly wasn't because of a decision he "looked down through time and saw that I would make." I have no delusions about the fallen state that I was in before He rescued me.
And I would agree with every word---but again, I struggle to understand how you think that His work on the CROSS, was only for a FEW, but not for the WORLD (as Jn3:17, 1Jn4:14 say).If you understood the doctrine you would know that the election unto salvation is based on the work of Christ ON THE CROSS.
I guess my "lack of understanding" is what I've been saying in this post---how was His death, selective?You, OTOH, believe that the Cross accomplished NO ONE'S specific salvation. You believe that you had to add to Jesus sacrifice on the Cross with YOUR ACCEPTANCE.
I still do not understand how "HOLOS KOSMOS" can mean, "only a FEW that God has SELECTED"...Absolutely not. Jesus was the propitiation for the whole world...the whole world of believers.
And yet, the parable clearly says that "everyone who DECLINED, was UNCHOSEN". So was the man who clung to his unrighteousness. The parable clearly says that all the CHOSEN, consciously BECAME the chosen through their own choice to RECEIVE the invitation. This is why I say, "It's not that I set out to REFUTE YOU, Don, but simply to hear you explain how the Scripture can say something else?"What you seem to be forgetting is that that passage in Matthew says that "few are CHOSEN." I'm sure, to you, that means you were chosen based on your works but that's not what it means. We were chosen based on God's righteous counsel alone:
Look up those verses I gave above about "saving yourself", and the explanation I gave with them---I believe they held the same understanding as do I...Ben...you totally credit your salvation to the things you do. Look at the above statement and compare it to the following. They're the same.
I think either would. The question remains, which view does Scripture support? Can you give alternate explanations (from your perspective) for all of the questions I have raised in this post?Which view glorifies God, your's or mine?
Touche'. You of course know that I share that view: "I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me; and the ife I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and gave Himself up for me."My hand is not in Christ's hand. I'm in Christ and He's in me.
And you (meaning all who hold to "PE"), believe all of the WARNINGS are mere HYPERBOLE. Why did Jude say "KEEP youselves in the love of God" if he did not believe it possible to not abide? Why did Paul write Col1:21-23? Or 1Tim4:16? Why did John write 2:1:7-9? Why did James write 5:19-20? Or Peter write 2:1:9-11 (based on verses 1-8), and 2:2:20-22? You see, it's not that I set out to refute you, Don, but I only ask how all of these verses can be explained in the "PE" framework.I try to abide in His commandments because I am His, not so that I can remain, or become, His.
That, and the whole of chapter 10. "How much severer punishment will he deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS SANCTIFIED, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? Therefore, DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE (don't throw away JESUS!)" How can this passage have been written by one-who-believed-in-OSAS?To me this has the same problem with assurance. Hebrews 10:26 talks about deliberate sin and I think this helps the OSNAS position in regards to assurance.
But---does this not affect our spiritual WALK? I think one who believes PE, if wrong, stands a greater chance of falling.The bottom line result is the same, regardless if you truly understand the details of the mechanism.
Originally posted by Ben johnson
In my NAS Bible, "THAT" is footnoted, as "THAT SALVATION". Salvation is indeed "not of ourselves"---it is a gift from God.
Yet, a gift must be received---and a received gift, is still from, and of, the giver---not of the receiver.
I believe that "condemnation came to all men, through Adam's sin"; thus we inherit a fallen, rebellious nature. Pelagius believed that mankind had GOODNESS in him, and could come to God by himself---this is denied this in John6:44: "No one comes to Me unless the Father DRAGS him.".
Yet, the argument becomes, "Does GOD drag only SOME, or ALL to Jesus?
But in Jn12:32, Jesus says, "I will DRAG ALL MEN to Myself". You believe that mankind is totally depraved---so that each cannot turn to God AT ALL; yet Paul writes, "That which is KNOWN about God, is evident to them, for God made it evident to them". Rm1:19 We are clearly told WHY men rejected Him---because they loved EVIL! Not because they could not choose Him.
Salvation is defined, as RECEIVING CHRIST. IOW, BELIEVING. Jn1:12 tells us that we who RECEIVE Christ, BELIEVE, gain the right to become adopted sons.
Take two "snoozes" and call me in the morning...Your posts exhaust me.
I suspect the men who translated the Bible, are more learned than I. The fact is that the genders do not match for "THAT" and "FAITH". And still "dia pistis" (through faith) is a prepositional phrase---in both Greek and English, it cannot raise to a second subject. Specifically, "THAT", refers to the entire opening phrase, "for by grace have you been saved through faith". Our "having-been-saved" is not of ourselves---that it is OUR FAITH that RECEIVES the gift of salvation, does not violate the premise "IT IS NOT OF OURSELVES". If I hand you a gift, you can either walk away, or you can TAKE the gift---by taking it have you done anything towards the EXISTENCE of the gift? Is the gift anything of YOU, or is it entirely of ME?By all means, let's start relying on the footnotes in our Bible as the end all to be all. So this is what I understand you to be saying: You read:
But you see---it is not what BEN said; (nor is it what DON said; ) ...it is what JESUS, and JOHN, and JAMES, and JUDE, and PETER, and MARK, and LUKE, and PAUL said. Romans 5:17 says: "Those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and WHO RECEIVE the gift of righteousness shall reign through ...Jesus." SO THEN Adam brought condemnation to all Humans, EVEN SO came justification of life from Jesus to all Humans. What I am asking, is how this accomodates "PE"? So then---even so. Doesn't this remove the argument, of: "The FIRST 'pas anthropos' means EVERYONE, the SECOND 'pas anthropos means only SOME."?You're saved because YOU accept the cure. It's about you Ben. If you read your own posts you'll see that.
OK, show me in Scripture where it says, "they could not choose God"? Yes they loved evil---but show me where there is no CHOICE whether to love evil or to love the Light?They loved evil because they were evil. They could not choose God because they were separated from Him by their sinfulness, and His wrath was being poured out upon them. They were dead in their tresspasses Ben. Dead. Not lethargic. Not tired. Dead. I don't know what that word means to you but it's pretty self explanatory to me.
Defined by John in 1:12. By Jesus in Jn3:16-19. By Paul in Rm3:22, 4:11, 5:17-18, 10:9-10---really all of Paul's letters, all of Johns, James', all of them. The FATHER of ALL WHO BELIEVE. Some men love the light, some love the dark; some are of their father the devil and WANT to do evil things (Jn8:43-44). Just show me the verse that says "depraved man is too dead to believe", and/or "belief is stalled by God".Defined like that by whom?
This is why I'm struggling---where is this concept in Scripture? What is the standard that allows us to dismiss all of the warnings (cited above---"KEEP youselves in the love of God" Jd21, Col1:21-23, 1Tim4:16, 2Jn1:7-9, Jms5:19-20, 2Pet1:9-11 (based on verses 1-8), and 2:2:20-22? ), and so many others, as meaningless hyperbole? Why do you think they WROTE them if they're empty words?The reason that not all receive Christ is because not all are graced by God with the ability to believe.
Originally posted by Ben johnson
Take two "snoozes" and call me in the morning...
I suspect the men who translated the Bible, are more learned than I.
The fact is that the genders do not match for "THAT" and "FAITH". And still "dia pistis" (through faith) is a prepositional phrase---in both Greek and English, it cannot raise to a second subject. Specifically, "THAT", refers to the entire opening phrase, "for by grace have you been saved through faith". Our "having-been-saved" is not of ourselves---that it is OUR FAITH that RECEIVES the gift of salvation, does not violate the premise "IT IS NOT OF OURSELVES".
If I hand you a gift, you can either walk away, or you can TAKE the gift---by taking it have you done anything towards the EXISTENCE of the gift? Is the gift anything of YOU, or is it entirely of ME?
The phrase, "for-by-grace-through-faith-have-you-been-saved", is eqivalent to, "THAT SALVATION". I did not contradict that "faith is of ourselves"---though the GIFT of salvation is NOT of ourselves. Remember my comparison, if I gave you a gift, and you TOOK it, your RECEIVING the gift does not change the fact that the gift was entirely OF ME. I think the translators clearly supported the idea that "THAT" did not refer to "FAITH"---hence the motivation to PLACE the footnote.It's truly baffles me how easily you disregard even your own statements. You said "THAT" refers to "THE ENTIRE OPENING PHRASE." That means your salvation, the faith that manifests that salvation in your being, and the grace that delivers that faith are "not of ourselves." You say it refers to the "ENTIRE" opening phrase, and I agree, and then you turn around a pick out a part of that opening phrase and say that your faith is of yourself. Truly baffling, not to mention unbiblical and contradictory.
A gift is a gift...That's what salvation is like, you giving me a gift. Ben, you're not omnipotent, and the gift you're giving me probably wouldn't offend every part of my being.
One who BELIEVES, who RECEIVES CHRIST, is likewise no longer His enemy. You are stuck in thinking that "a person is still totally dead-depraved-rebellious, until God "WHACKS" him over the head with salvation. I, otoh, believe that a person suffers conviction, believes---and it is that belief that RECEIVES Christ, RECEIVES the Holy Spirit. You see God as INSTALLING the gift, I see God as OFFERING the gift and us as reaching out our hands and RECEIVING the gift---the gift still being entirely of the giver...Additionally, I'm not your enemy.
That's fine---but what of the verses I posted about "saving yourself", and the warnings against "apostasy"? Where is the Scripture that says, "God INSTALLS salvation in only the FEW that He has CHOSEN"?God is the Creator. He creates man. Man rebels. Man becomes God's enemy. Man, because of his rebellion, falls from God's grace and becomes a depraved being. He has no righteousness of himself. He is totally separated from God. God is pouring His wrath out upon all mankind. Man has no remedy for his depraved separation from God. Oh no!! What is man to do? Man can do nothing, that's what. He is dead in his trespasses. So God is going to do something for him. God is not a man. God doesn't half-heartedly do things. When He says He's going to make provision for man by sending a Savior it's not an ineffective promise. He's God. He will accomplish exactly what He planned to accomplish.
If I have improved your walk, then that pleases me. I'm sorry that you see my position as "prideful"---I rather see myself following Jude's admonition to "earnestly contend for the faith", and Paul's (in Titus) to "exhort with sound doctrine and refute those who contradict". I was pleased we had "re-opened a dialog".You know what Ben. I should actually thank you. You have done two things for me. One, you have caused me to deepen my studies, albiet I have done so for the wrong reason, but my faith in my beliefs has grown so strong lately and I think that is, in large part, due to you.
I don't consider what I think to be relevant---I only strive to correctly understand the Word---and I presented you with a list of verses that seem to support "volition". Why is it important? Does it not shape our very approach to Him? If it is by our own faith that we receive Him, and that we abide in Him ("As you have RECEIVED CHRIST, so walk IN Him" Co2:6)--- then does it not affect our whole perspective, our entire Christian walk? James (ch1) says "each man is tempted by his own lust, which concieves sin, and sin brings death". If this was written to REAL CHRISTIANS (and it was), how can I dismiss such a warning? Tantamount to Peter's, "Beware the devil, who stalks the word as a roaring lion seeking whom he may DEVOUR". Also, "take care, brethren, that there not be found in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, to falling away from the living God; but encourage one another, lest any of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin". I just don't think these verses can be explained away by one who holds, "PE".I have yet to figure out why it's so important for you to be able to say you had to accept God's Will for it to be done. Maybe it's pride. But, I think most of us struggle with that. The truth of God picking out a people for His Son and conforming them to the image of righteousness while they were yet His enemy will help you put your faith in Him and truly understand the love He has for His elect and glorify Him for His mercy, instead of putting your faith in your own abilities to overcome the wrath of God.
I accept your prayer for me willingly, gratefully. I have the same prayer for you. I know your heart is sincere, I know you love God, Don. I pray that He guides both of us to where He wants us to be.I pray that God will enlighten you to the Truth.
Originally posted by Ben johnson
I accept your prayer for me willingly, gratefully. I have the same prayer for you. I know your heart is sincere, I know you love God, Don. I pray that He guides both of us to where He wants us to be.
God bless you guys!
I can not believe that they made you a Mod, you believe you can lose it just as the Catholics do.
I just hope your damnable doctrine does not affect any new Christians on here as you will have to give an account of that at the Great White Throne of Judgement when you stand before Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by Ben johnson
That, and the whole of chapter 10. "How much severer punishment will he deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS SANCTIFIED, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? Therefore, DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE (don't throw away JESUS!)" How can this passage have been written by one-who-believed-in-OSAS?
Originally posted by Ben johnson
But---does this not affect our spiritual WALK? I think one who believes PE, if wrong, stands a greater chance of falling.