What does "saved" mean?? (serious question)

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Knight

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If you don't believe in the OSAS doctrine then how can you grow as a Christian? Seems to me, if you could loose your salvation, you would be constantly trying to get it back. There would be no growth as a Christian because you have no assurance of salvation. You would be constantly at the first step.

Just my observation.
 
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stephen1964

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Originally posted by Ben johnson
The MOMENT YOU WERE SAVED, was the moment when you CONSCIOUSLY received Christ into your heart, surrendering your will to His Lordship. You CONSCOUSLY repented and threw yourself at His feet, and said, "Oh LORD, take me and mold me as Thou wilt---I submit to You, hold nothing back, I surrender completely. Be Thou my Lord and Master, teach me to be a willing and righteous servant." Did you ever actually do that? Do you walk daily with your hand in His, actively seeking His presence? Do you praise and worship Him?

:)

That's just it; I can't pinpoint one big moment where I consciously received Christ into my heart.  My experience was more like a slow thawing of my soul.  I still believe I am growing in my relationship with Christ, but I know that I have accepted Him as my Lord and savior!  However, just because I am saved, doesn't mean I don't have those moments where I slap myself on the head and say, "So THAT'S what you meant". :o
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Ben johnson
Ohhh, my bad! :o That's what I get for staying up to the wee hours of the morning! I of COURSE meant to say "THAT" does not refer to "THAT FAITH". As you know, I believe faith comes from the person's own heart, not froma gift of God.

Okay.  What does "THAT" refer to?  And, a couple of questions on this, how can faith come from the heart of a fallen, depraved creature?  Do you believe the nature of man, not man's relationship with God, was affected at all by the Fall?  If so, how?

I must contrain my beliefs to follow the Bible. Technically, I did NOTHING to save myself, He did it ALL, on the CROSS---but I very much RECEIVED it by my own volition.

Okay.  I think this is the most confusing thing I ever hear people say.  Answer this question: Were YOU saved because Jesus died on the Cross?  If not, did YOU have to do anything to obtain salvation for YOURSELF? 

Says so in John1:12, 10:9. I think I have often quoted Romans 5:17-18---that passage nicely sums up salvation, and strongly refutes "predestination". It says, "those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and RECEIVE the gift of righteousness"---so grace is not COMPELLED, it is RECEIVED.

Did all men receive the same measure of Grace?  And if so, what is the reason that YOU believed unto salvation?  Did you get any extra Grace?  Was there something different about YOU that caused you to respond more favorably to that Grace?  And when you answer that, please include how you feel that is not boasting.

Further, the "so as/even so" comparative form of the verse plainly equates the universalness of condemnation through Adam, with the universalness of justification through Jesus.

Ben...justification comes to the saved.  Do you know what "being justified" means?  It means being pronounced just.  Do you believe all mankind have been pronounced just?

When I RECEIVE Christ, it's not that I DO something, it's rather that I accept what HE has done!

Do you even see the inconsistancy in this statement?  I don't do anything, I accept.  HELLO!!  Accepting is doing something.

Jesus plainly asserts "if I be lifed up I will CALL ("helkuo-drag") ALL MEN to Myself.

A few questions here; First, do you believe ALL men are called to Christ?  Second, what do you think is the result of that call?  Third, if man as you say, from his own free will, chooses Christ, why is it that he needs to be dragged?

 We may be depraved, we may be totally depraved---but if He calls ALL, then He brings each to a point where he/she CAN make the conscious choice.

So you believe that man has to be "brought to a point where he/she can make a conscious choice?"  How, then, does he have free will?  If he is so depraved he has to be brought to a point where he can make a conscious decision, it sounds like, until he is, he's in bondage to his depravity.  Is that how you see it?  Ben, this whole philosophy, previent grace, seems so unloving to me.  I would love to continue talking with you about it.  I only ask that you prayerfully consider my view as we discuss it instead of just trying to refute me.

Do you deny that John12:32 says "I will draw ALL to Myself"?

No.  I don't deny it.  Before I address this further, what exactly do you think is meant by "draw?"  Since you believe "all" to be everyone, obviously "draw" cannot mean "draw unto salvation."  So, what purpose, in your opinion, does the "drawing of the LORD GOD" serve?  Is it just to let man know of his need for a Savior?

Now take what you just said---"why do you think Jesus actually died for you"? Why do you, Don? As I understand "PE", you think God had ALREADY CHOSEN you, so the Cross didn't really ACCOMPLISH anything---you were already "one of the ELECT". PE believes the Cross was not effective, only demonstrative (nothing more than pageantry). While I, on the other hand, believe the Cross was effective. Do you see the difference?

The difference I see is that you obviously don't understand the first thing about predestined election.  I'll comment on your statements separately.

You asked, "Why do I think Jesus died for me specifically," right?  I have absolutely no clue.  I know that I didn't do anything to deserve it, like make the right decision.  I'll tell you it certainly wasn't because of a decision he "looked down through time and saw that I would make."  I have no delusions about the fallen state that I was in before He rescued me.

Next, you said, "you think God had ALREADY CHOSEN you, so the Cross didn't really ACCOMPLISH anything---you were already "one of the ELECT."  Uh...okay.  What do you believe "PE" proponants believe they are chosen for?  If you understood the doctrine you would know that the election unto salvation is based on the work of Christ ON THE CROSS.

Lastly, you say, "PE believes the Cross was not effective, only demonstrative (nothing more than pageantry)."

Absolutely untrue.  It's obvious you don't really understand the doctrine you so vehemently oppose.  Proponants of PE believe that the Cross ALONE accomplished the salvation of EXACTLY who it was intended to save.  IOW, it was effective.  It just wasn't random.  You, OTOH, believe that the Cross accomplished NO ONE'S specific salvation.  You believe that you had to add to Jesus sacrifice on the Cross with YOUR ACCEPTANCE.  And, you believe that if you don't accept that sacrifice then the Cross accomplished NOTHING for you specifically.  Ben, if you read this and blow it off, as usual, it's obvious you don't really want to understand the doctrine of predestined election.

But---John says "He is the propitiation for the HOLOS KOSMOS whole world". Do you agree that "HOLOS KOSMOS" cannot mean "only SOME of ALL TYPES"?

Absolutely not.  Jesus was the propitiation for the whole world...the whole world of believers.

"What do you think Jesus meant in Matt22:14, by 'MANY are CALLED but FEW are CHOSEN'?" Do you think there is some OTHER meaning here, but that many CALLED <B>will not be chosen</B>?

Ben, I've answered this before and I've no doubt you're going to ignore my answer now, but here it is for any who do care to read it:

There is a general revelation of God given to all men.&nbsp; Read Romans 1:18-23.&nbsp; That is the call to many.&nbsp; What you seem to be forgetting is that that passage in Matthew says that "few are CHOSEN."&nbsp; I'm sure, to you, that means you were chosen based on your works but that's not what it means.&nbsp; We were chosen based on God's righteous counsel alone:

Romans 11:34
"For who has known the mind of the LORD?
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Or who has become His counselor?"

The MOMENT YOU WERE SAVED, was the moment when you CONSCIOUSLY received Christ into your heart, surrendering your will to His Lordship. You CONSCOUSLY repented and threw yourself at His feet, and said, "Oh LORD, take me and mold me as Thou wilt---I submit to You, hold nothing back, I surrender completely. Be Thou my Lord and Master, teach me to be a willing and righteous servant."

Do you even read what you say?&nbsp; This is it:

"The moment I was saved is the moment I consciously received Christ into my heart.&nbsp; I surrendered to His Lordship.&nbsp; I consciously repented and THREW MYSELF at His Feet and I said, Oh Lord...&nbsp;I submit to You.&nbsp; I hold nothing back.&nbsp; I surrender completely."

Ben...you totally credit your salvation to the things you do.&nbsp; Look at the above statement and compare it to the following.&nbsp; They're the same.

Your version:

You were saved because you received (you did a good thing), surrendered (another good thing), repented (another good thing), threw yourself at His feet (another good thing), prayed (another good thing), and held nothing back (and another good thing).&nbsp; Ben, you weren't saved.&nbsp; You were rewarded.&nbsp; You don't mention one single thing about God's grace saving you.

Here's the Truth of our salvation:

God knows we are unrighteous, fallen, unrepentant sinners who are suffering the His wrath due to our suppression of the Truth in our ungodliness.&nbsp; We have no remedy for our situation.&nbsp; None of us are righteous.&nbsp; Anything we do in our fallen state in an effort to receive God's favor is an abomination to Him.&nbsp; We are destined for condemnation, and we deserve it.&nbsp; He, because it pleased Him to do so, extended His grace to some and saved them yet when they were His enemy and are conforming them to the image of His Son.

My version:

We are unrighteous (bad thing), fallen (bad thing), unrepentant (bad thing) sinners (bad thing) who suppress the Truth in our unrighteousness (bad thing) and we are helpless to rescue ourselves (bad thing).&nbsp; God saved us when we were His helpless enemy (very good thing).

Which view glorifies God, your's or mine?

Did you ever actually do that? Do you walk daily with your hand in His, actively seeking His presence? Do you praise and worship Him?:)

My hand is not in Christ's hand.&nbsp; I'm in Christ and He's in me.&nbsp; I'll forgo responding to the rest of those.&nbsp; I'll tell you that I'm a Christian and therefore I strive to please my Father.&nbsp; I don't worry about losing my status as a member of the family.&nbsp; I know that He loves me no matter what and will do exactly what is needed to conform me to the image of His Son.&nbsp; I know that I was not saved by my works, so I won't be unsaved by them.&nbsp; I'm safe.&nbsp; You believe you're not unless you abide in His commandments.&nbsp; I try to abide in His commandments because I am His, not so that I can remain, or become, His.

God bless
 
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cthoma11

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Originally posted by Knight
If you don't believe in the OSAS doctrine then how can you grow as a Christian? Seems to me, if you could loose your salvation, you would be constantly trying to get it back. There would be no growth as a Christian because you have no assurance of salvation. You would be constantly at the first step.

Just my observation.

Just a thought from how OSAS explain backsliding when they say the person was never really saved. Doesn't this explanation have the same implications on the assurance of salvation? How would you ever know that you were indeed saved, rather than the one who was not truly saved and eventually it was going to show when you appeared to have backslid? I used 'appeared' because according to the theory you didn't really backslide because you were never really saved.

To me this has the same problem with assurance. Hebrews 10:26 talks about deliberate sin and I think this helps the OSNAS position in regards to assurance.

In another post, I stated somewhat awkwardly that I didn't think that the moderate positions on either side were really that different in effect. The OSAS says he was never really saved, the OSNAS says he backslid and willingly gave up his salvation. The bottom line result is the same, regardless if you truly understand the details of the mechanism.

I think the extreme positions on either side are clearly wrong. OSAS and free license to live the most evil life possible as well as OSNAS and every unintentional sin causes you to loose salvation.

Regards,

Clinton
 
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Originally posted by cthoma11
Just a thought from how OSAS explain backsliding when they say the person was never really saved. Doesn't this explanation have the same implications on the assurance of salvation? How would you ever know that you were indeed saved, rather than the one who was not truly saved and eventually it was going to show when you appeared to have backslid? I used 'appeared' because according to the theory you didn't really backslide because you were never really saved.

To me this has the same problem with assurance. Hebrews 10:26 talks about deliberate sin and I think this helps the OSNAS position in regards to assurance.

In another post, I stated somewhat awkwardly that I didn't think that the moderate positions on either side were really that different in effect. The OSAS says he was never really saved, the OSNAS says he backslid and willingly gave up his salvation. The bottom line result is the same, regardless if you truly understand the details of the mechanism.

I think the extreme positions on either side are clearly wrong. OSAS and free license to live the most evil life possible as well as OSNAS and every unintentional sin causes you to loose salvation.

Regards,

Clinton

Hey Clinton, I'm not sure I totally understand what you're saying here but I would like to add something.&nbsp; To make a decision about whether someone is saved or not saved at any point in their lives has never, and will never, be our job.&nbsp; I think we should look at all people as if they are "in the family until they are out," not "out of the family until they are in."&nbsp; That kind of thinking could very easily cause us to treat them differently than someone we&nbsp;stongly believe&nbsp;is saved.

God bless
 
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cthoma11

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Originally posted by Reformationist
Hey Clinton, I'm not sure I totally understand what you're saying here but I would like to add something.&nbsp; To make a decision about whether someone is saved or not saved at any point in their lives has never, and will never, be our job.&nbsp; I think we should look at all people as if they are "in the family until they are out," not "out of the family until they are in."&nbsp; That kind of thinking could very easily cause us to treat them differently than someone we&nbsp;stongly believe&nbsp;is saved.
God bless

Hey Don,

Thanks. For the most part I agree whole heartedly. Sometimes, we are to judge though; positions of leadership; for example&nbsp;deacons comes to mind (... how can you tell that I'm studying Titus right now).&nbsp;

Your comment about how we treat people is bang on.

Regards,

Clinton
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by cthoma11
Thanks. For the most part I agree whole heartedly. Sometimes, we are to judge though; positions of leadership; for example&nbsp;deacons comes to mind (... how can you tell that I'm studying Titus right now).&nbsp;

Your comment about how we treat people is bang on.

Regards,

Clinton

Don't get me wrong.&nbsp; We are called to judge.&nbsp; Irregardless, man will judge all things he perceives, whether he means to or not.&nbsp; Judging something to be sinful or not is definitely our duty.&nbsp; I was referring specifically to someone's salvation.&nbsp; However, judging an action or situation as sinful or not will definitely prepare us to deal with it in a godly way.&nbsp; You're comments on judging leadership are a perfect example of that.

Blessings to you! :wave:
 
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Ben johnson

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I know that I have accepted Him as my Lord and Savior!
That really is what it is about, Stephen. If you are living righteously, in fellowship with Him---then you are saved, there is no question. "He who HAS the Son, HAS THE LIFE---I write this that you may KNOW you have eternal life." (1Jn5:12-13)
Okay. What does "THAT" refer to?
In my NAS Bible, "THAT" is footnoted, as "THAT SALVATION". Salvation is indeed "not of ourselves"---it is a gift from God. Yet, a gift must be received---and a received gift, is still from, and of, the giver---not of the receiver.
And, a couple of questions on this, how can faith come from the heart of a fallen, depraved creature? Do you believe the nature of man, not man's relationship with God, was affected at all by the Fall? If so, how?
I believe that "condemnation came to all men, through Adam's sin"; thus we inherit a fallen, rebellious nature. Pelagius believed that mankind had GOODNESS in him, and could come to God by himself---this is denied this in John6:44: "No one comes to Me unless the Father DRAGS him.". Yet, the argument becomes, "Does GOD drag only SOME, or ALL to Jesus? Of course in this passage, the main POINT Jesus is making, is that He is EQUAL to God.

But in Jn12:32, Jesus says, "I will DRAG ALL MEN to Myself". You believe that mankind is totally depraved---so that each cannot turn to God AT ALL; yet Paul writes, "That which is KNOWN about God, is evident to them, for God made it evident to them". Rm1:19 We are clearly told WHY men rejected Him---because they loved EVIL! Not because they could not choose Him.
Answer this question: Were YOU saved because Jesus died on the Cross? If not, did YOU have to do anything to obtain salvation for YOURSELF?
Salvation is defined, as RECEIVING CHRIST. IOW, BELIEVING. Jn1:12 tells us that we who RECEIVE Christ, BELIEVE, gain the right to become adopted sons. Have you ever done a search on, "SAVE YOURSELF" in the Bible? It's there---in Matthew 24:13, Luke 21:19, 1Tim4:16, 1Pet1:9. Contextually it is not presenting the PERSON as their own SAVIOR---but only affirming the person's own role in his salvation. So too, Jude, verse 21: "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, awaiting anxiously the mercy of Christ to eternal life." Because salvation-DEFINED is fellowship (1Jn1:3,6), "KEEPING OURSELVES IN HIS LOVE" is identical, to "ABIDING IN HIM". And abiding is salvation (1Jn4:15-16). Thus in John 15:6, when it says "if anyone does NOT abide in Me, he is cut off ...and cast into the fire"---it means much more than just "those who HAVE NEVER abided"---for to be CUT OFF, one must first be JOINED.

Much words, only saying: "We have NOTHING to do with our salvation itself, we have EVERYTHING to do with RECEIVING that salvation, and ABIDING IN that salvation". Hope I'm making sense. ;)
Did all men receive the same measure of Grace? And if so, what is the reason that YOU believed unto salvation? Did you get any extra Grace? Was there something different about YOU that caused you to respond more favorably to that Grace? And when you answer that, please include how you feel that is not boasting.
I am SENTIENT---self aware, capable of independent thought. I am not a "fatalistic piece of debris, flotsam and jetsum in the river of time, helpless in where I am cast"---I have volition. I can come and go as I decide. "Total Depravity" is akin to "fatalism", that people have no choice in their destiny; while the argument about our "inheritted fallen nature" is fact, the argument also exists that He BRINGS us to the point where we CAN decide---we can buck the current of the river. Buck it, perhaps---but not lift ourselves FROM it. The best we can do, is LIFT UP OUR HAND---it is HIM who pulls us from before the falls.

Why is this not a thing to brag? Boasting is for some ACHIEVEMENT, something we have DONE. Surrender to Him, is the OPPOSITE, the FAR SIDE OF THE UNIVERSE from our own achievement. It is laying aside OUR ego, and surrendering to HIM. We receive Him, BECAUSE WE ARE BROKEN AND HUMBLED! This is the opposing side of the spectrum---in our surrender, we admit our corruption and sin---we are as far from pride and boasting as we can be!!!!!
Ben...justification comes to the saved. Do you know what "being justified" means? It means being pronounced just. Do you believe all mankind have been pronounced just?
Justification COMES to all men---in the PERSON of Jesus Christ; in Rom5:17-18, it says "justification came to all men THROUGH ONE ACT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS"---it is speaking of CHRIST-ON-THE-CROSS.

It is ONE thing for justification to COME to every man---it is quite another for that man to BE justified! For him to actually BE justified, he must RECEIVE it---receiving the person of CHRIST. Precisely as Rom5:17 says...
First, do you believe ALL men are called to Christ? Second, what do you think is the result of that call? Third, if man as you say, from his own free will, chooses Christ, why is it that he needs to be dragged?
Yes I believe that ALL men are called. In the parable of Matt22, which is ALLEGORY of HEAVEN and SALVATION, everyone ended up being called. Who then gained admittance to Heaven? ONLY those who RECEIVED the invitation (by coming), AND who clothed themselves with righteousness. Jesus said, "Many are CALLED, but FEW are CHOSEN". I cannot see how that coud mean anything BUT that there are many CALLED, who are not CHOSEN. The parable seems clear to me---how could it mean else?

The word, "DRAW", carries the image of "dragging". But it means, "call effectively". Perhaps there is truth that mankind is too rebellious to come---but Scripture is replete with passage ABOUT men coming to God ("If My people will humble themselves and pray, and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from Heaven, will forgive their sin, and wil heal their land." 2Chron7:15 I think the premise that He calls EVERYONE so that EACH has the option to receive Him or reject Him, is well founded.
I only ask that you prayerfully consider my view as we discuss it instead of just trying to refute me.
It is not that I "set out to refute you"---but, rather, that I see Scripture saying what it says. As I just quoted, how can Matt22:14 mean anything, BUT "many CALLED will not be CHOSEN"?
So, what purpose, in your opinion, does the "drawing of the LORD GOD" serve? Is it just to let man know of his need for a Savior?
I think the "DRAWING" conveys the exact same concept as in Matt22, for the "CALLING"...
You asked, "Why do I think Jesus died for me specifically," right? I have absolutely no clue. I know that I didn't do anything to deserve it, like make the right decision. I'll tell you it certainly wasn't because of a decision he "looked down through time and saw that I would make." I have no delusions about the fallen state that I was in before He rescued me.
I'm only struggling to understand why some believe that His death, was SELECTIVE---only for a FEW rather than ALL (or all who would believe).
If you understood the doctrine you would know that the election unto salvation is based on the work of Christ ON THE CROSS.
And I would agree with every word---but again, I struggle to understand how you think that His work on the CROSS, was only for a FEW, but not for the WORLD (as Jn3:17, 1Jn4:14 say).
You, OTOH, believe that the Cross accomplished NO ONE'S specific salvation. You believe that you had to add to Jesus sacrifice on the Cross with YOUR ACCEPTANCE.
I guess my "lack of understanding" is what I've been saying in this post---how was His death, selective?

And if it was God's CHOICE as to who would be saved, then why did Jesus need to die? God had already CHOSEN the "elect" for salvation---but you believe that Jesus still EFFECTED that "pre-choice"---I guess I don't fully understand. If it was PRE-CHOICE, why was it still EFFECTED through the Cross?
You say, And, you believe that if you don't accept that sacrifice then the Cross accomplished NOTHING for you specifically. ---yet you also believe, that for the UNELECT, the Cross accomplished nothing.
Absolutely not. Jesus was the propitiation for the whole world...the whole world of believers.
I still do not understand how "HOLOS KOSMOS" can mean, "only a FEW that God has SELECTED"...
What you seem to be forgetting is that that passage in Matthew says that "few are CHOSEN." I'm sure, to you, that means you were chosen based on your works but that's not what it means. We were chosen based on God's righteous counsel alone:
And yet, the parable clearly says that "everyone who DECLINED, was UNCHOSEN". So was the man who clung to his unrighteousness. The parable clearly says that all the CHOSEN, consciously BECAME the chosen through their own choice to RECEIVE the invitation. This is why I say, "It's not that I set out to REFUTE YOU, Don, but simply to hear you explain how the Scripture can say something else?"
Ben...you totally credit your salvation to the things you do. Look at the above statement and compare it to the following. They're the same.
Look up those verses I gave above about "saving yourself", and the explanation I gave with them---I believe they held the same understanding as do I...
Which view glorifies God, your's or mine?
I think either would. The question remains, which view does Scripture support? Can you give alternate explanations (from your perspective) for all of the questions I have raised in this post?
My hand is not in Christ's hand. I'm in Christ and He's in me.
Touche'. :) You of course know that I share that view: "I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me; and the ife I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and gave Himself up for me."
I try to abide in His commandments because I am His, not so that I can remain, or become, His.
And you (meaning all who hold to "PE"), believe all of the WARNINGS are mere HYPERBOLE. Why did Jude say "KEEP youselves in the love of God" if he did not believe it possible to not abide? Why did Paul write Col1:21-23? Or 1Tim4:16? Why did John write 2:1:7-9? Why did James write 5:19-20? Or Peter write 2:1:9-11 (based on verses 1-8), and 2:2:20-22? You see, it's not that I set out to refute you, Don, but I only ask how all of these verses can be explained in the "PE" framework.
 
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Ben johnson

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To me this has the same problem with assurance. Hebrews 10:26 talks about deliberate sin and I think this helps the OSNAS position in regards to assurance.
That, and the whole of chapter 10. "How much severer punishment will he deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS SANCTIFIED, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? Therefore, DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE (don't throw away JESUS!)" How can this passage have been written by one-who-believed-in-OSAS?
The bottom line result is the same, regardless if you truly understand the details of the mechanism.
But---does this not affect our spiritual WALK? I think one who believes PE, if wrong, stands a greater chance of falling.

:)
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Ben johnson
In my NAS Bible, "THAT" is footnoted, as "THAT SALVATION". Salvation is indeed "not of ourselves"---it is a gift from God.

By all means, let's start relying on the footnotes in our Bible as the end all to be all.&nbsp; So this is what I understand you to be saying: You read:

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

And, because your Bible footnotes say so, you believe "that" doesn't refer to faith, it doesn't refer to grace, but rather it refers to salvation.&nbsp; Is that right?&nbsp; Well, it does refer to salvation.&nbsp; It just happens to also refer to the thing that brought about that salvation, which was faith, and the vehicle that brought you that faith, which was grace.&nbsp; Salvation is solely of God.&nbsp; You were fallen.&nbsp; You could do nothing, not receive, not ask, not accept, to remedy that situation.&nbsp; That's what the Bible means THREE verses earlier when it says, "even when we were&nbsp;DEAD in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)."

Yet, a gift must be received---and a received gift, is still from, and of, the giver---not of the receiver.

You seem to like analogies.&nbsp; Here's one for you.&nbsp; Let's say you had some fatal disease (I truly hope that you don't).&nbsp; Let's say I had the cure.&nbsp; According to your theology, are you saved because I have the cure?&nbsp; Definitely not.&nbsp; You're saved because YOU accept the cure.&nbsp; It's about you Ben.&nbsp; If you read your own posts you'll see that.

I believe that "condemnation came to all men, through Adam's sin"; thus we inherit a fallen, rebellious nature. Pelagius believed that mankind had GOODNESS in him, and could come to God by himself---this is denied this in John6:44: "No one comes to Me unless the Father DRAGS him.".

Okay.&nbsp; Are you saying you believe in the total depravity of mankind due to the Fall?

Yet, the argument becomes, "Does GOD drag only SOME, or ALL to Jesus?

But in Jn12:32, Jesus says, "I will DRAG ALL MEN to Myself". You believe that mankind is totally depraved---so that each cannot turn to God AT ALL; yet Paul writes, "That which is KNOWN about God, is evident to them, for God made it evident to them". Rm1:19 We are clearly told WHY men rejected Him---because they loved EVIL! Not because they could not choose Him.

Ben, I don't know what you thought Romans 1 was going to prove because Romans 1 is about the total depravity of mankind, specifically the Gentiles.&nbsp; The Gentiles rejected God despite the overwhelming evidence of His existence as seen through creation, even unto the power of the Godhead, because they were fallen.&nbsp; It was their very nature to rebel against God due to their inherited seed of rebellion.&nbsp; They loved evil because they were evil.&nbsp; They could not choose God because they were separated from Him by their sinfulness, and His wrath was being poured out upon them.&nbsp; They were dead in their tresspasses Ben.&nbsp; Dead.&nbsp; Not lathargic.&nbsp; Not tired.&nbsp; Dead.&nbsp; I don't know what that word means to you but it's pretty self explanatory to me.

Salvation is defined, as RECEIVING CHRIST. IOW, BELIEVING. Jn1:12 tells us that we who RECEIVE Christ, BELIEVE, gain the right to become adopted sons.

Defined like that by whom?&nbsp; You?&nbsp; You said it yourself Ben.&nbsp; "No one comes to Me unless the Father DRAGS him" (John 6:44).&nbsp; The reason that not all receive Christ is because not all are graced by God with the ability to believe.

I'll get to the rest of this tomorrow.&nbsp; Your posts exhaust me. ;)

God bless
 
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Ben johnson

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Your posts exhaust me.
Take two "snoozes" and call me in the morning...

;)
By all means, let's start relying on the footnotes in our Bible as the end all to be all. So this is what I understand you to be saying: You read:
I suspect the men who translated the Bible, are more learned than I. The fact is that the genders do not match for "THAT" and "FAITH". And still "dia pistis" (through faith) is a prepositional phrase---in both Greek and English, it cannot raise to a second subject. Specifically, "THAT", refers to the entire opening phrase, "for by grace have you been saved through faith". Our "having-been-saved" is not of ourselves---that it is OUR FAITH that RECEIVES the gift of salvation, does not violate the premise "IT IS NOT OF OURSELVES". If I hand you a gift, you can either walk away, or you can TAKE the gift---by taking it have you done anything towards the EXISTENCE of the gift? Is the gift anything of YOU, or is it entirely of ME?
You're saved because YOU accept the cure. It's about you Ben. If you read your own posts you'll see that.
But you see---it is not what BEN said; (nor is it what DON said; ) ...it is what JESUS, and JOHN, and JAMES, and JUDE, and PETER, and MARK, and LUKE, and PAUL said. Romans 5:17 says: "Those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and WHO RECEIVE the gift of righteousness shall reign through ...Jesus." SO THEN Adam brought condemnation to all Humans, EVEN SO came justification of life from Jesus to all Humans. What I am asking, is how this accomodates "PE"? So then---even so. Doesn't this remove the argument, of: "The FIRST 'pas anthropos' means EVERYONE, the SECOND 'pas anthropos means only SOME."?
They loved evil because they were evil. They could not choose God because they were separated from Him by their sinfulness, and His wrath was being poured out upon them. They were dead in their tresspasses Ben. Dead. Not lethargic. Not tired. Dead. I don't know what that word means to you but it's pretty self explanatory to me.
OK, show me in Scripture where it says, "they could not choose God"? Yes they loved evil---but show me where there is no CHOICE whether to love evil or to love the Light?

You and I agree that "salvation is by FAITH"---we differ in that you say "faith is bequeathed by God"---tell me how you accomodate Romans10: "Faith comes from HEARING the Word of God". Actually, I know your answer to that: "It is GOD who opens their HEARTS that His WORD will CAUSE the faith..." And yet, this is inferred logic---I do not see anything that says "God modifies the hearts of a SELECT FEW that they may BELIEVE/HAVE-FAITH".

The passage of Ezk11:19-20 (remove stone-hearts, give flesh-hearts) is bracketted by verse 18 and 21---which clearly present volition. Yes we were DEAD IN OUR SINS, and He saved us WHILE we were dead in our sins. Eph2:5 Dead means dead; but it doesn't mean that a dead-in-sin person cannot lift his hand towards Jesus. One can be DEAD-IN-QUICKSAND and still raise a hand to be saved. If I was to embrace "PE", I woud need a verse that said "a DEAD person cannot RECEIVE CHRIST". You see, I am understanding that we were DEAD, right up to the moment we BELIEVED. We were DEAD IN SIN until He made us alive, WHEN WE BELIEVED/RECEIVE-HIM/ACQUIRED-FAITH-BY-HEARING.

If salvation is by "voluntary faith", then we ARE dead-in-our-sins until He makes us alive-in-Him.
Defined like that by whom?
Defined by John in 1:12. By Jesus in Jn3:16-19. By Paul in Rm3:22, 4:11, 5:17-18, 10:9-10---really all of Paul's letters, all of Johns, James', all of them. The FATHER of ALL WHO BELIEVE. Some men love the light, some love the dark; some are of their father the devil and WANT to do evil things (Jn8:43-44). Just show me the verse that says "depraved man is too dead to believe", and/or "belief is stalled by God".

"For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

"Whoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For the Son was sent not to judge the word, but that the world should be saved. He who BELIEVES is not judged; he who does NOT believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in (Jesus)."


What I'm tryin' to understand is how a theology exists that says, "belief is bequeathed from God".
The reason that not all receive Christ is because not all are graced by God with the ability to believe.
This is why I'm struggling---where is this concept in Scripture? What is the standard that allows us to dismiss all of the warnings (cited above---"KEEP youselves in the love of God" Jd21, Col1:21-23, 1Tim4:16, 2Jn1:7-9, Jms5:19-20, 2Pet1:9-11 (based on verses 1-8), and 2:2:20-22? ), and so many others, as meaningless hyperbole? Why do you think they WROTE them if they're empty words?

ROmans 1 says things like, "they KNEW God and CHOSE to follow evil"; and "they are without excuse". If one finds himself cast into Hell, then he could (if "PE" be true) certainly claim excuse---for it would be GOD'S decision, not his. It is not valid to say "he perishes by his own depravity"---so would the ELECT had not God intervened---it still remains God's choice. For there to be NO EXCUSE it must be the MAN'S choice.
 
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Originally posted by Ben johnson
Take two "snoozes" and call me in the morning...;)

Thank you.&nbsp; Since you responded to my&nbsp;unfinished response I&nbsp;now have double the work. :eek:

I suspect the men who translated the Bible, are more learned than I.

I suspect that the men who interpreted the Bible and compiled the footnotes in my&nbsp;Bible are more learned than the both of us but I seriously doubt you'd accept their opinions of Scripture considering I say the same things they say.

The fact is that the genders do not match for "THAT" and "FAITH". And still "dia pistis" (through faith) is a prepositional phrase---in both Greek and English, it cannot raise to a second subject. Specifically, "THAT", refers to the entire opening phrase, "for by grace have you been saved through faith". Our "having-been-saved" is not of ourselves---that it is OUR FAITH that RECEIVES the gift of salvation, does not violate the premise "IT IS NOT OF OURSELVES".

It's truly&nbsp;baffles me how easily you disregard even your own statements.&nbsp; You said "THAT" refers to "THE ENTIRE OPENING PHRASE."&nbsp; That means your salvation, the faith that manifests that salvation in your being, and the grace that delivers that faith are "not of ourselves."&nbsp; You say it refers to the "ENTIRE" opening phrase, and I agree, and then you turn around a pick out a part of that opening phrase and say that your faith is of yourself.&nbsp; Truly baffling, not to mention unbiblical and contradictory.

If I hand you a gift, you can either walk away, or you can TAKE the gift---by taking it have you done anything towards the EXISTENCE of the gift? Is the gift anything of YOU, or is it entirely of ME?

Yeah.&nbsp; That's what salvation is like, you giving me a gift. :rolleyes:&nbsp; Ben, you're not omnipotent, and the gift you're giving me probably wouldn't offend every part of my being.&nbsp; Additionally, I'm not your enemy.&nbsp; That is nothing like the salvation God brings about for His elect.&nbsp; Here's the relationship of the involved entities:

God is the Creator.&nbsp; He creates man.&nbsp; Man rebels.&nbsp; Man becomes God's enemy.&nbsp; Man, because of his rebellion, falls from God's grace and becomes a depraved being.&nbsp; He has no righteousness of himself.&nbsp; He is totally separated from God.&nbsp; God is pouring His wrath out upon all mankind.&nbsp; Man has no remedy for his depraved separation from God.&nbsp; Oh no!!&nbsp; What is man to do?&nbsp; Man can do nothing, that's what.&nbsp; He is dead in his trespasses.&nbsp; So God is going to do something for him.&nbsp; God is not a man.&nbsp;&nbsp;God doesn't half-heartedly do things.&nbsp; When He says He's going to make provision for man by sending a Savior it's not an ineffective promise.&nbsp; He's God.&nbsp; He will accomplish exactly what He planned to accomplish.

Isaiah 55:11
So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It shall not return to Me void,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; But it shall accomplish what I please,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; And it shall prosper IN THE THING for which I sent it.

He leaves nothing to chance.&nbsp; He is God.&nbsp; He is sovereign.&nbsp; If He wants someone saved, He saves them.&nbsp; If He wants someone reconciled to Himself, He's the only one who can do the reconciling.&nbsp; Everything man does in his fallen state in an attempt to please God is an abomination to Him.&nbsp; This includes our supposed efforts to repent and acknowledge His holiness.&nbsp; That is a result of your salvation, NOT a means to obtain it.

You know what Ben.&nbsp; I should actually thank you.&nbsp; You have done two things for me.&nbsp; One, you have caused me to deepen my studies, albiet I have done so for the wrong reason, but my faith in my beliefs has grown so strong lately and I think that is, in large part, due to you.&nbsp; Secondly, you are providing me with a manifestation of God's Word.&nbsp; I see you seeking to become wise in your own prideful explanations.&nbsp; This really is releasing me from the desire to respond to your posts.

I pray that God will enlighten you to the Truth.&nbsp; It will truly set you free from all&nbsp;that stuff you desparately hang on to to maintain your own involvement in your salvation.&nbsp; I have yet to figure out why it's so important for you&nbsp;to be able to say you had to accept God's Will for it to be done.&nbsp; Maybe it's pride.&nbsp; But, I think&nbsp;most of us struggle with that.&nbsp;&nbsp;The truth of God picking out a people for His&nbsp;Son and conforming them to the image of righteousness while they were yet His enemy&nbsp;will help you put your faith in Him and truly&nbsp;understand the love He has for His elect and glorify Him for His mercy, instead of putting your faith in your own abilities to overcome the wrath of God.

God bless,

Don
 
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Ben johnson

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It's truly baffles me how easily you disregard even your own statements. You said "THAT" refers to "THE ENTIRE OPENING PHRASE." That means your salvation, the faith that manifests that salvation in your being, and the grace that delivers that faith are "not of ourselves." You say it refers to the "ENTIRE" opening phrase, and I agree, and then you turn around a pick out a part of that opening phrase and say that your faith is of yourself. Truly baffling, not to mention unbiblical and contradictory.
The phrase, "for-by-grace-through-faith-have-you-been-saved", is eqivalent to, "THAT SALVATION". I did not contradict that "faith is of ourselves"---though the GIFT of salvation is NOT of ourselves. Remember my comparison, if I gave you a gift, and you TOOK it, your RECEIVING the gift does not change the fact that the gift was entirely OF ME. I think the translators clearly supported the idea that "THAT" did not refer to "FAITH"---hence the motivation to PLACE the footnote.
That's what salvation is like, you giving me a gift. Ben, you're not omnipotent, and the gift you're giving me probably wouldn't offend every part of my being.
A gift is a gift...
Additionally, I'm not your enemy.
One who BELIEVES, who RECEIVES CHRIST, is likewise no longer His enemy. You are stuck in thinking that "a person is still totally dead-depraved-rebellious, until God "WHACKS" him over the head with salvation. I, otoh, believe that a person suffers conviction, believes---and it is that belief that RECEIVES Christ, RECEIVES the Holy Spirit. You see God as INSTALLING the gift, I see God as OFFERING the gift and us as reaching out our hands and RECEIVING the gift---the gift still being entirely of the giver...
God is the Creator. He creates man. Man rebels. Man becomes God's enemy. Man, because of his rebellion, falls from God's grace and becomes a depraved being. He has no righteousness of himself. He is totally separated from God. God is pouring His wrath out upon all mankind. Man has no remedy for his depraved separation from God. Oh no!! What is man to do? Man can do nothing, that's what. He is dead in his trespasses. So God is going to do something for him. God is not a man. God doesn't half-heartedly do things. When He says He's going to make provision for man by sending a Savior it's not an ineffective promise. He's God. He will accomplish exactly what He planned to accomplish.
That's fine---but what of the verses I posted about "saving yourself", and the warnings against "apostasy"? Where is the Scripture that says, "God INSTALLS salvation in only the FEW that He has CHOSEN"?
You know what Ben. I should actually thank you. You have done two things for me. One, you have caused me to deepen my studies, albiet I have done so for the wrong reason, but my faith in my beliefs has grown so strong lately and I think that is, in large part, due to you.
If I have improved your walk, then that pleases me. I'm sorry that you see my position as "prideful"---I rather see myself following Jude's admonition to "earnestly contend for the faith", and Paul's (in Titus) to "exhort with sound doctrine and refute those who contradict". I was pleased we had "re-opened a dialog".
I have yet to figure out why it's so important for you to be able to say you had to accept God's Will for it to be done. Maybe it's pride. But, I think most of us struggle with that. The truth of God picking out a people for His Son and conforming them to the image of righteousness while they were yet His enemy will help you put your faith in Him and truly understand the love He has for His elect and glorify Him for His mercy, instead of putting your faith in your own abilities to overcome the wrath of God.
I don't consider what I think to be relevant---I only strive to correctly understand the Word---and I presented you with a list of verses that seem to support "volition". Why is it important? Does it not shape our very approach to Him? If it is by our own faith that we receive Him, and that we abide in Him ("As you have RECEIVED CHRIST, so walk IN Him" Co2:6)--- then does it not affect our whole perspective, our entire Christian walk? James (ch1) says "each man is tempted by his own lust, which concieves sin, and sin brings death". If this was written to REAL CHRISTIANS (and it was), how can I dismiss such a warning? Tantamount to Peter's, "Beware the devil, who stalks the word as a roaring lion seeking whom he may DEVOUR". Also, "take care, brethren, that there not be found in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, to falling away from the living God; but encourage one another, lest any of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin". I just don't think these verses can be explained away by one who holds, "PE".
I pray that God will enlighten you to the Truth.
I accept your prayer for me willingly, gratefully. I have the same prayer for you. I know your heart is sincere, I know you love God, Don. I pray that He guides both of us to where He wants us to be.

God bless you guys!

:)
 
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Originally posted by Ben johnson
I accept your prayer for me willingly, gratefully. I have the same prayer for you. I know your heart is sincere, I know you love God, Don. I pray that He guides both of us to where He wants us to be.

God bless you guys!

:)

Ben, I have for the most part, as I always do, enjoyed our discussion.&nbsp; I am sorry if I come accross as belligerant.&nbsp; It is a part of me that I am striving to change but still contend with.&nbsp; I ask that you forgive me and pray for my spiritual growth.

Have a good Thanksgiving and I pray that God continues to bless you.

God bless,

Don
 
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I just hope your damnable doctrine does not affect any new Christians on here as you will have to give an account of that at the Great White Throne of Judgement when you stand before Jesus Christ.

And I hope YOUR damnable doctrine does not affect any new Christian on this board as they may well decide that they have little incentive to pursue the Christian life since they were told by some clown that they could never lose their salvation. Oh, and btw, I hope you're not a teacher of sorts at your church. Because the Bible clearly states that they will be judged more strictly.

Michelle
 
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Originally posted by Ben johnson
That, and the whole of chapter 10. "How much severer punishment will he deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS SANCTIFIED, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? Therefore, DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE (don't throw away JESUS!)" How can this passage have been written by one-who-believed-in-OSAS?

I'm assuming this is retorical :)
Originally posted by Ben johnson
But---does this not affect our spiritual WALK? I think one who believes PE, if wrong, stands a greater chance of falling.
:)

I'm not sure I agree here. Of course that means I'm not sure I disagree either. I think I feel strongly both ways :)

I can see how belief at both extremes as being problematic. PE because they may see their election as free license and in direct violation of Hebrews 10 (Person A). But I can see someone who see's every unintentional sin as a reason for loosing their salvation maybe giving up in despair (Person B).

Looking at the problem from pure logic: If PE is true, then Person B (who doesn't give up) in the above paragraph isn't in any danger regardless which view is correct, sort of a Pascal's wager like problem. If ~PE is true, then person A is indeed in grave danger.

However, a person with a true conversion will have the same desire for God, the same desire to obey, the same desire for godliness, regardless of their view on PE, won't they?&nbsp; I guess this is part of the question that I don't see the difference and hence when I say it is academic.

I appreciate everyone's feedback on my attempts to explain myself on this issue. This helps sharpen the sword so to speak as I realize I need to think how to better explain things.&nbsp; Hopefully this is a step in that direction.
 
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