What does prayer do?

[cvanwey]

Who cares! You got the IV started again, prayer or no prayer.

Yer still here? CF is an addition, isn't it? It's alright @2PhiloVoid , I'll give you some love here

Because unlike [you], @thomas_t is under the notion that God answers some/most/all petitionary prayer; as long as it's from an earnest Christian whom is not there to test God.

I watched your video, from another thread, a couple or few months back. And believe it or not, I tend to agree with some of it...

But it still begs the question(s)...

- If God answers prayer, does this mean we humans can change God's will?
- If God does not answer prayer, then why does the Bible state He does answer any/all prayer?
- If prayer is only meant to be to form a relationship, then why does the Bible produce many verses, stating to pray for anything, and not specify for only a relationship?

I'll stop here for now. This should be enough to keep you busy, at least until rapture

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yer still here? CF is an addition, isn't it? It's alright @2PhiloVoid , I'll give you some love here

...an 'addition'? Addition to what?

Because unlike [you], @thomas_t is under the notion that God answers some/most/all petitionary prayer; as long as it's from an earnest Christian whom is not there to test God.

I honestly haven't read brother Thomas's viewpoint thus far, although I'm sure he's a nice guy. On my part, I can only say that I believe God hears all prayer, but I don't think we'll be able to count what He gives to us as an 'answer' on a human scale. In my view, it'll be the very rare occurrence in which anyone will be able to show another person some concrete response from God, via prayer.

I watched your video, from another thread, a couple or few months back. And believe it or not, I tend to agree with some of it...

Honestly, I can't remember which video you're referring to since I've slept since then.

But it still begs the question(s)...

- If God answers prayer, does this mean we humans can change God's will?

I believe that we have what may be termed as a 'bounded will,' so within that theological speculation, I posit that the answer is "kind of," but then, too, I think "change" is a very ambiguous word in relation to God's Will overall.

- If God does not answer prayer, then why does the Bible state He does answer any/all prayer?

Where in the Bible do you think it says this?

- If prayer is only meant to be to form a relationship, then why does the Bible produce many verses, stating to pray for anything, and not specify for only a relationship?

I've answered this question many times thus far. You'll have to go back and find one of those earlier posts and refresh your memory.

I'll stop here for now. This should be enough to keep you busy, at least until rapture

.... what's a rapture? (I don't think I've ever said I was a Dispensationalist, have I? Sorry, folks. I'm not.)

 

[InterestedAtheist]

On my part, I can only say that I believe God hears all prayer, not that we count what He give us as an 'answer' on a human scale. In my view, it'll be the very rare occurrence in which anyone will be able to show another person some concrete response

Better not let these poor people know about that. They're busily asking God for things all the.time.
Prayer Wall

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Better not let these poor people know about that. They're busily asking God for things all the.time.
Prayer Wall

Oh, I didn't say people shouldn't pray. All I've ever said is that I go with W. Bingham Hunter's interpretive approach to the meaning and purpose of prayer, more or less. So, I'm not downing the prayer efforts of any of my fellow Christians. I'd encourage them to pray away as much as they feel the need and the Spirit to do so. However, I'm also fairly confident (although I and Hunter could be wrong) that the formula for prayer isn't to be thought of as an opportunity to rub Aladdin's Lamp ... either.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Oh, I didn't say people shouldn't pray. All I've ever said is that I go with W. Bingham Hunter's interpretive approach to the meaning and purpose of prayer, more or less. So, I'm not downing the prayer efforts of any of my fellow Christians. I'd encourage them to pray away as much as they feel the need and the Spirit to do so. However, I'm also fairly confident (although I and Hunter could be wrong) that the formula for prayer isn't to be thought of an opportunity to rub Aladdin's Lamp ... either.

Okay, after having read that I think you should definitely not share your opinion with the poor cancer sufferers and debtors and eye-injured over at the Prayer Wall. I think they wouldn't take it well if you told them not to treat prayer like Aladdin's lamp.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Okay, after having read that I think you should definitely not share your opinion with the poor cancer sufferers and debtors and eye-injured over at the Prayer Wall. I think they wouldn't take it well if you told them not to treat prayer like Aladdin's lamp.

Did I ever tell you that I've had occasional run-ins with the Faith Movement crowd? Where I live, one can't help but run into them. Many of them mean well, I think, but .............. [and that's all I can say here].

I mean, too, there's a reason why I've put the various lists that I have on my CF Personal Info page. ...and it's not because I want people to know what I like.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

So. What does prayer do? We have some Christians who think that God doesn't use prayer to give Christians anything in the material world. Fair enough. But for those Christians who think God does answer prayers with direct responses in the physical world, I would really like to know why we can't see these responses having any effects. And I don't think I've had a satisfactory answer yet.

 

[thomas_t]

Why isn't He fixing things now? Why does He only appear in stories a long, long time ago?
If you believe that God actually exists, it's a mystery.

Many millions of Christians believe that God is interacting with them all the time.
Let me tell you my personal story: my life used to be in ruins when I was 22. But Jesus came to my life to fix everything, this is at least my conviction. He is a true God, in my view. I love him.
I was caught in psychological problems, I had the wrong job life, I couldn't find any sense in my life, I used to have a surrounding that behaved toxically against me (this used to be the main problem).
But then Jesus appeared, this is at least my conviction. I truely had the impression that he gave me orders how to sort this out. New personal surrounding. New job life. By and large everything became new in the wake of my conversion when I was 22. He changed my life 100%, I think.
At this point, you might reply "sorry Thomas, this can't count as evidence!" It's not supposed to be your evidence for faith. It's just my opinion I want to add when you say God doesn't appear to change anything.
My prayer was more or less "Jesus, take the ruins of my life and do something with that!" - and in the course of the following years... everything has changed. I don't feel entitled to falsely give the credit to myself.

Are you agreeing with him that Jesus Christ will never come? Because that's what he said, even if he didn't mean it

I think he never meant anything in this sense. Jesus can come back anytime soon. Marc 13:33.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Many millions of Christians believe that God is interacting with them all the time.

Yes. I know they do.
But the thing is - are they right?
Because as long as it's isolated incidents and anecdotal evidence, it isn't worth anything.
If God actually is acting in people's lives, demonstrating His power by manifesting in the physical world, then that is something that can be demonstrated. Tracked. Something that affects the data in trends among the population.

Let me tell you my personal story

No, thank you. Miracle stories are ten a penny. And they always turn out to have happened somewhere else, to someone who was on their own, not producing any verifiable change in the world, and never getting caught on camera.
Look, I'm glad things worked out for you. Now, can we get back to the purpose of this thread? This is not a church sermon, it's a debating forum.

You say that millions of people believe that God is interacting with them.
Fine. So do millions of Muslims about their God. So did millions of Romans about their gods. So did every follower of every religion ever.

What evidence do we have that these millions of Christians' beliefs are inf act real?

 

[thomas_t]

it isn't worth anything.

for me, what I consider God's interaction with me is everything.
So let me tell you my personal story in more detail (just kidding)....

What evidence do we have that these millions of Christians' beliefs are inf act real?

My stance here: I agree with @MrsFoundit here when she says

Support for the Bible [including the promises God made concerning prayer believers pray, added mine] becomes clearer in practice than in theory, I do not believe one can hypothetically experience it.

 

[MrsFoundit]

for me, what I consider God's interaction with me is everything.
So let me tell you my personal story in more detail (just kidding)....

My stance here: I agree with @MrsFoundit here when she says

I do not believe it can be objectively observed from outside either, so a "scientific" study just cannot be done. It just is not scientific, you would need a scientific definition of the praying part, and there is none.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

for me, what I consider God's interaction with me is everything.

I see.

So let me tell you my personal story in more detail (just kidding)....

That was genuinely funny.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

My stance here: I agree with @MrsFoundit here when she says

I do not believe it can be objectively observed from outside either, so a "scientific" study just cannot be done. It just is not scientific, you would need a scientific definition of the praying part, and there is none.

Okay. Let's think about that a bit.
Let's just focus on the Christians who say that God actually does answer prayers, even if only sometimes with a "yes".
I'll make some points here. Perhaps one or both of you will tell me if there's anything you disagree with in any of them.

1. As thomas said, millions of Christians claim that God is working in their lives. Let's proceed on the assumption, for the moment, that they are correct.
2. Would it be fair to say that there are millions of Christians who pray to God for material help, and claim that they receive it, in answer to some of their prayers?
3. If so, then there are millions of Christians who can say that things got better for them in difficult situations, and can prove it. They can point to successful operations, miraculous windfalls at just the right time, survival when lost in the wild, etc.
4. Now, this isn't proof that these were miracles caused by God. You could just say any individual case was luck.
5. But in theory, it would be quite possible to observe and record such incidents across the whole population - or even a representative poll, to extrapolate data. There would, of course, be difficulties and complications in doing so, but with enough careful gathering and recording of data it could be done.
6. What you would find is that Christians are, on average, "luckier" than non-Christians. Christians would know that this is because God answers their prayers, of course.

Do you disagree with any of these six points?

 

[cvanwey]

...an 'addition'? Addition to what?

Type-o -- 'addiction'.

I honestly haven't read brother Thomas's viewpoint thus far, although I'm sure he's a nice guy.

If you did, you would happen to see why your response was in no way helpful, nor relevant.

Where in the Bible do you think it says this?

Many verses. I could show you, but, you most likely already know what they are... And further, would just tell me how my 'translation' was in error.

I've answered this question many times thus far. You'll have to go back and find one of those earlier posts and refresh your memory.

Paraphrased from you above...

'I honestly haven't read your viewpoint thus far, although I'm sure your a nice guy.'

 

[MrsFoundit]

At this point, you might reply "sorry Thomas, this can't count as evidence!" It's not supposed to be your evidence for faith. It's just my opinion I want to add when you say God doesn't appear to change anything.

In this context, faith is an active state of trusting God, What changed first was the level of trust you were putting into God, after that it could be that God did things He would not have otherwise done, enabled by your increased level of trust. If you liked the results, that is a logical reason to carry on doing it. It is also evidence for you by definition, because it is why you are convinced prayer works.

If anyone else wants that form of evidence, they need to get their own, not ask for yours, since you absolutely cannot give another person your own personal experience.

Faith can mean "belief without evidence", including belief that there is a God, it just is not the applicable meaning to your story. It is a word with more than one meaning.

Thomas is invited to correct me on this one, if desired.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I don't view prayer as having an effect upon the world around me; I view prayer as a means of consciously choosing to place my faith in God, regardless of life's outcomes. I don't know what "answered prayer" looks like, so I don't know what the world would look like if God suddenly decided to stop "answering prayer". Maybe nothing would change. Maybe the universe would implode. But, again, I don't pray to "get" something out of it. I accept that things happen, and I don't know why, and I don't ascribe good and bad to God being capricious or temperamental. I accept that the world is messy, complicated, confusing, and I don't have a clue why basically anything ever happens--and as frustrating as it is, and as difficult it is, and as horrible and awful things often are for many people, including many people I care very deeply for, I still make a conscious choice to put my faith in God, come hell or high water.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I don't view prayer as having an effect upon the world around me; I view prayer as a means of consciously choosing to place my faith in God, regardless of life's outcomes. I don't know what "answered prayer" looks like, so I don't know what the world would look like if God suddenly decided to stop "answering prayer". Maybe nothing would change. Maybe the universe would implode. But, again, I don't pray to "get" something out of it. I accept that things happen, and I don't know why, and I don't ascribe good and bad to God being capricious or temperamental. I accept that the world is messy, complicated, confusing, and I don't have a clue why basically anything ever happens--and as frustrating as it is, and as difficult it is, and as horrible and awful things often are for many people, including many people I care very deeply for, I still make a conscious choice to put my faith in God, come hell or high water.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you for that reply, Crypto Lutheran. I guess I'm thinking of people who do believe that prayers get answered - the people who pray to God to help them get through surgery, or to find something lost, or to keep a loved one safe.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Type-o -- 'addiction'.

Oh yes, quite so! I'm very addicted to basking in the emotional humiliation that can come by getting on a public form and being cleverly sucker punched ever other post by those who are vested in seeing the demise of my faith ... Yep, I'm addicted to such. Oh, somebody HELP me, please!

If you did, you would happen to see why your response was in no way helpful, nor relevant.

I'm always glad to be of service!

Many verses. I could show you, but, you most likely already know what they are... And further, would just tell me how my 'translation' was in error.

Yes, I very likely would.

 

[cvanwey]

I don't view prayer as having an effect upon the world around me; I view prayer as a means of consciously choosing to place my faith in God, regardless of life's outcomes. I don't know what "answered prayer" looks like, so I don't know what the world would look like if God suddenly decided to stop "answering prayer". Maybe nothing would change. Maybe the universe would implode. But, again, I don't pray to "get" something out of it. I accept that things happen, and I don't know why, and I don't ascribe good and bad to God being capricious or temperamental. I accept that the world is messy, complicated, confusing, and I don't have a clue why basically anything ever happens--and as frustrating as it is, and as difficult it is, and as horrible and awful things often are for many people, including many people I care very deeply for, I still make a conscious choice to put my faith in God, come hell or high water.

-CryptoLutheran

Call me mean, call me what-you-will... But even if one of these god(s) exist, this would mean the rest of these asserted god(s) likely don't. And since it's safe to assume that most, whom believe in their flavor of god pray as such, the vast majority are likely doing nothing more than clinching their hands together, closing their eye's, and talking to themselves.

Now, we just need to figure out which ones are doing that, and which ones aren't?

Unless doing the following tasks prompts the one true god for all requests regardless?

 

[MrsFoundit]

Call me mean, call me what-you-will... But even if one of these god(s) exist, this would mean the rest of these asserted god(s) likely don't.

You are replying to post by a monotheist, no if one of these god(s) exist, or asserted god(s), or flavor of god applies.

clinching their hands together, closing their eye's, and talking to themselves.

No, because in Christianity this is not the only alternative, and your reference to hands and eyes would not even apply to many Christians or others.

Now, we just need to figure out which ones are doing that, and which ones aren't?

Why would we need to do this? Not that it really matters when your premise is invalid.

Unless doing the following tasks prompts the one true god for all requests regardless?

What tasks?