• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

What does it mean by One God?

RBPerry

Christian Baby Boomer
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2013
808
302
76
Northern California
✟111,732.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
How is it one God when there are three deities?
As you can see, there is theological differences between Christians on this issue. Because you have one Father, as he told Moses when asked his name "I AM" Jesus was his son, making him next to God, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit that intercedes between man and the Father.

Personally I believe the Trinity is far beyond our true full comprehension. To say Jesus was praying to himself makes no sense, that he was departing and would leave the Holy Spirit doesn't imply that the three are one. To say that all three are the same being makes absolutely no sense.
 
Upvote 0

Godistruth1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 9, 2018
1,781
183
34
Somewhere
✟142,167.00
Country
India
Gender
Male
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Single
As you can see, there is theological differences between Christians on this issue. Because you have one Father, as he told Moses when asked his name "I AM" Jesus was his son, making him next to God, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit that intercedes between man and the Father.
Bible says all children are the sons of God
Personally I believe the Trinity is far beyond our true full comprehension. To say Jesus was praying to himself makes no sense, that he was departing and would leave the Holy Spirit doesn't imply that the three are one. To say that all three are the same being makes absolutely no sense
I don't believe God is trinity, hes just One
 
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
56
Texas
✟124,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I'm not waving anything away, I am working from the established definition. If you tell me that Canada is a small island nation off the coast of Antarctica, and I say no, Canada is defined as a nation located in the northern hemisphere, as part of the land mass known as North America, it's not hand waving to assert that Canada is a nation in the northern hemisphere on the North American continent. Because by definition that is what Canada is.

Insisting on changing the meaning of words, and rejecting what people mean by what they are saying is a bad form of argument.

When I say the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are one Being, I'm not simply saying stuff. I mean exactly what I'm saying. The Trinity does not consist of three beings because there is only one Being being spoken about.

The Son does not have a separate being from the Father. So that the Father and the Son are two divine beings. The Son has the same Being as the Father, the Son is the same Being as the Father. In this the Father and the Son are one and the same. They are distinct in their Hypostases, not in Being.

Insisting that "three beings" are being spoken about, when it's being very clearly explained that it's not is insisting upon imposing a foreign idea. It's insisting that Canada is actually an island nation off the coast of Antarctica, or that 2+2=5.

-CryptoLutheran
So all you have done here is define the trinity into existence. You have explained how it works using words that Christianity has given definitions to. Just like I can define God as a microwave, since microwaves exist then God does exist. The problem you have not addressed is the violation of the laws of logic. Just saying three separate entities are not three beings but one is insufficient to solve the logical problem.
 
Upvote 0

SPF

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2017
3,594
1,984
ATL
✟149,581.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
The orthodox view of the Trinity is logically consistent.

The assertion being made by a number of people is that the Christian understanding of the Trinity violates the law of non-contradiction, which says that A cannot be both A and non-A at the same time, and in the same relationship.

However, in Christian doctrine, the confession is that God is one in essence and three in Person. God is one in A, and three in B. Now if we said he was one in essence, and three in essence, then that would be a contradiction. Or if we said he is one in person, and three in person, then that would be a contradiction.

But if we're talking purely logical language here, the orthodox view of the Trinity does not violate any laws of logic. As mysterious as the Trinity may be, and as beyond our capacity to fully understand as it might be - it does not violate any laws of logic.

I took the above from a series that R.C. Sproul did on the Trinity. If you're bored and not at work, and are actually curious to hear what an educated Christian has to say about a the Trinity, then check out this series: Monotheism by R.C. Sproul

Also, interestingly enough, just last night John Piper put out an article about the Trinity as well. I encourage anyone interested to give it a read: Can We Explain the Trinity? My Favorite Image for the Greatest Mystery

Here's another article that's a little more basic from Piper as well: What Is the Doctrine of the Trinity?
 
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
56
Texas
✟124,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
The orthodox view of the Trinity is logically consistent.

The assertion being made by a number of people is that the Christian understanding of the Trinity violates the law of non-contradiction, which says that A cannot be both A and non-A at the same time, and in the same relationship.

However, in Christian doctrine, the confession is that God is one in essence and three in Person. God is one in A, and three in B. Now if we said he was one in essence, and three in essence, then that would be a contradiction. Or if we said he is one in person, and three in person, then that would be a contradiction.

But if we're talking purely logical language here, the orthodox view of the Trinity does not violate any laws of logic. As mysterious as the Trinity may be, and as beyond our capacity to fully understand as it might be - it does not violate any laws of logic.

I took the above from a series that R.C. Sproul did on the Trinity. If you're bored and not at work, and are actually curious to hear what an educated Christian has to say about a the Trinity, then check out this series: Monotheism by R.C. Sproul

Also, interestingly enough, just last night John Piper put out an article about the Trinity as well. I encourage anyone interested to give it a read: Can We Explain the Trinity? My Favorite Image for the Greatest Mystery

Here's another article that's a little more basic from Piper as well: What Is the Doctrine of the Trinity?
All this has done is define the trinity as logical. It does not solve the problem.

Can the three persons of the trinity be together at the same time?
Is Jesus God?
Is the HS God?
Is the Father God?
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,875
11,637
Space Mountain!
✟1,374,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
All this has done is define the trinity as logical. It does not solve the problem.

Can the three persons of the trinity be together at the same time?
Is Jesus God?
Is the HS God?
Is the Father God?

I don't know.. Can three colors in the light spectrum be "together" at the same time? How about all of the colors be "together" at the same time? The answer is: yes, they can be, but you don't hear anyone griping about that, now do you? No, you don't!

So, why is it so very, very hard for people to conceptualize that there can be three non-humanly distinct persons within the Being of God?

Wake up, folks! It's not that hard! In fact, this issue is so trivial, especially since God didn't give us a blueprint of His 'structure,' and it amazes me that people spend so much time on it.
 
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
56
Texas
✟124,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I don't know.. Can three colors in the light spectrum be "together" at the same time? How about all of the colors be "together" at the same time? The answer is: yes, they can be, but you don't hear anyone griping about that, now do you? No, you don't!
Yes, but we don't say that green, blue and red are the same color or ar ethe same color as these three colors of light make together.

So, why is it so very, very hard for people to conceptualize that there can be three non-humanly distinct persons within the Being of God?
Because it violates the laws of logic.

Wake up, folks! It's not that hard! In fact, this issue is so trivial, especially since God didn't give us a blueprint of His 'structure,' and it amazes me that people spend so much time on it.
Then why have theologians been spending 2000 years trying to explain it? If it was logical then it wouldn't be an issue for so long. They spend time on it because the Bible has clear statements that there is only one God but also has statements that Jesus is God, the HS is God etc.
 
Upvote 0

SPF

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2017
3,594
1,984
ATL
✟149,581.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
All this has done is define the trinity as logical. It does not solve the problem.

Can the three persons of the trinity be together at the same time?
Is Jesus God?
Is the HS God?
Is the Father God?
Hi, I'm glad that at least you can now acknowledge that you were mistaken about the Trinity being logically sound. That's a good first step, and hopefully you won't fall back on that line attack again in the future.

As far as your question goes, I like to think of the Trinity like this....

If we accept that by definition God is a Maximally Great Being (MGB), that is, whatever attributes God possesses, He must necessarily possess them to their maximum, then if we are to say that the Father, Son, and Spirit are one in essence and three in person, then it must be true that each of them, in person, possess all the same attributes of God, or else one person wouldn't be God.

Now, I don't want to get sidetracked into what "ingredients" makeup the MGB, so hopefully we can for the sake of discussion simply accept some basic Christian attributes assigned to God. So let's assume that it is more maximally great for a being to be all powerful (omnipotent) than limited in power. Let's also assume that being eternal is more maximally great than being created. For a being to be God, He must be maximally great, and possess all the attributes of a MGB to their fullest. For example, if God wasn't omnipotent, and another being was omnipotent, then that other being would actually be God.

So for the sake of discussion, let's accept that part of being MGB means the being possesses the following: omnipotence, omniscience, eternality, immutable in character, and goodness.

Therefore, any being that is God must necessarily possess each of those attributes to their maximum. Therefore, if we say that each person of the Trinity is God, then each person of the Trinity must possess all attributes of God to their maximum.

If this is the case (and I think it is), then in essence all three person's of the Trinity are one. They would never disagree, they would not act differently, they would never think differently, they would be in perfect unison, in perfect relationship at all times, with the same will, purpose, and goals. For there could be no disagreement if each person of the Trinity possessed in equal measure all the attributes of the MGB.

Thus, while they may have different roles, their essence is the same, because they are God. One God, three persons.

The fact is that nobody at any point in history has ever been able to fully explain how the Trinity works, and nobody ever will, and that's not a bad thing. You may scoff at that notion, but the fact is that it's foolish to actually think that a created, contingent, finite being would be, and should be capable of fully understanding the nature of an eternal, omnipotent, omniscient Being. It honestly makes me laugh to think that someone is so foolish and arrogant enough to think that they ought to be able to fully understand the Trinity.

The important thing for me is that I can acknowledge that the Trinity IS logically consistent. That's the starting point. The next is that I accept Scripture as the inherent Word of God. You, and all other atheists obviously don't! Therefore, I would never expect an atheist to accept the Trinity when they don't even accept that God exists in the first place!

The most I can expect from an atheist is what you just provided, an acknowledgment that the Trinity is logically consistent, albeit incomprehensible. So thank you.
 
Upvote 0

SPF

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2017
3,594
1,984
ATL
✟149,581.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Yes, but we don't say that green, blue and red are the same color or ar ethe same color as these three colors of light make together.

Because it violates the laws of logic.

Then why have theologians been spending 2000 years trying to explain it? If it was logical then it wouldn't be an issue for so long. They spend time on it because the Bible has clear statements that there is only one God but also has statements that Jesus is God, the HS is God etc.
Well that's a bummer. It only took you a matter of minutes after acknowledging that the Trinity did not violate any laws of logic to once again start falsely stating that it is illogical. Which is it? If you truly think the Trinity is violating a law of logic, can you outline specifically how it's doing this?
 
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
56
Texas
✟124,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Well that's a bummer. It only took you a matter of minutes after acknowledging that the Trinity did not violate any laws of logic to once again start falsely stating that it is illogical. Which is it? If you truly think the Trinity is violating a law of logic, can you outline specifically how it's doing this?
When did I agree that it did not violate the laws of logic? It violates the law of non contradiction. God cannot be three and one at the same time. If Jesus is fully God, The Father is fully God and the HS is fully God and they are distinct beings then there cannot be one God.
 
Upvote 0

SPF

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2017
3,594
1,984
ATL
✟149,581.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
When did I agree that it did not violate the laws of logic? It violates the law of non contradiction. God cannot be three and one at the same time. If Jesus is fully God, The Father is fully God and the HS is fully God and they are distinct beings then there cannot be one God.
My apologies, I explained how the Trinity does not violate the law of non-contradiction, and in response you said: "All this has done is define the trinity as logical. "

I'm going to repost what I said, and I would appreciate if you would respond directly to the content and explain why my explanation does not work, contrary to what you said.

The law of non-contradiction says that A cannot be both A and non-A at the same time, and in the same relationship.

The confession in Christianity is that God is one in essence and three in Person. God is one in A, and three in B. Now if we said he was one in essence, and three in essence, then that would be a contradiction. Or if we said he is one in person, and three in person, then that would be a contradiction.

But if we're talking purely logical language here, the orthodox view of the Trinity does not violate any laws of logic. As mysterious as the Trinity may be, and as beyond our capacity to fully understand as it might be - it does not violate any laws of logic.
 
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
56
Texas
✟124,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Hi, I'm glad that at least you can now acknowledge that you were mistaken about the Trinity being logically sound. That's a good first step, and hopefully you won't fall back on that line attack again in the future.
No you misunderstand my statement. You cannot define something into existence. You cannot define the trinity as something that does not violate the laws of logic. That is just an assertion and not any demonstration that it does not violate the laws of logic. Saying that it doesn't violate logic does not make it so.

Thus, while they may have different roles, their essence is the same, because they are God. One God, three persons.
Is Jesus God? IS the HS God? Is the father God?

The fact is that nobody at any point in history has ever been able to fully explain how the Trinity works, and nobody ever will, and that's not a bad thing. You may scoff at that notion, but the fact is that it's foolish to actually think that a created, contingent, finite being would be, and should be capable of fully understanding the nature of an eternal, omnipotent, omniscient Being. It honestly makes me laugh to think that someone is so foolish and arrogant enough to think that they ought to be able to fully understand the Trinity.
It makes me laugh that people will believe things that defy logic and have insufficient evidence to warrant belief.

The important thing for me is that I can acknowledge that the Trinity IS logically consistent. That's the starting point. The next is that I accept Scripture as the inherent Word of God. You, and all other atheists obviously don't! Therefore, I would never expect an atheist to accept the Trinity when they don't even accept that God exists in the first place!
I don't believe God exists. I cannot say that he doesn't.

The most I can expect from an atheist is what you just provided, an acknowledgment that the Trinity is logically consistent, albeit incomprehensible. So thank you.
That is not what I said at all.
 
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
56
Texas
✟124,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
My apologies, I explained how the Trinity does not violate the law of non-contradiction, and in response you said: "All this has done is define the trinity as logical. "

I'm going to repost what I said, and I would appreciate if you would respond directly to the content and explain why my explanation does not work, contrary to what you said.

The law of non-contradiction says that A cannot be both A and non-A at the same time, and in the same relationship.

The confession in Christianity is that God is one in essence and three in Person. God is one in A, and three in B. Now if we said he was one in essence, and three in essence, then that would be a contradiction. Or if we said he is one in person, and three in person, then that would be a contradiction.

But if we're talking purely logical language here, the orthodox view of the Trinity does not violate any laws of logic. As mysterious as the Trinity may be, and as beyond our capacity to fully understand as it might be - it does not violate any laws of logic.
This is just defining terms to not be contradictory. Define essence. Define Person.

Is Jesus God? Is the HS God? Is the Father God?
 
Upvote 0

SPF

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2017
3,594
1,984
ATL
✟149,581.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
This is just defining terms to not be contradictory. Define essence. Define Person.

Is Jesus God? Is the HS God? Is the Father God?
Well that's at least a start, you accept that the explanation doesn't violate the law of non-contradiction. You just need clarification now upon what Christianity means my essence, and by person.

If we accept that by definition God is a Maximally Great Being (MGB), that is, whatever attributes God possesses, He must necessarily possess them to their maximum, then if we are to say that the Father, Son, and Spirit are one in essence and three in person, then it must be true that each of them, in person, possess all the same attributes of God, or else one person wouldn't be God.

Now, I don't want to get sidetracked into what "ingredients" makeup the MGB, so hopefully we can for the sake of discussion simply accept some basic Christian attributes assigned to God. So let's assume that it is more maximally great for a being to be all powerful (omnipotent) than limited in power. Let's also assume that being eternal is more maximally great than being created. For a being to be God, He must be maximally great, and possess all the attributes of a MGB to their fullest. For example, if God wasn't omnipotent, and another being was omnipotent, then that other being would actually be God.

So for the sake of discussion, let's accept that part of being MGB means the being possesses the following: omnipotence, omniscience, eternality, immutable in character, and goodness.

Therefore, any being that is God must necessarily possess each of those attributes to their maximum. Therefore, if we say that each person of the Trinity is God, then each person of the Trinity must possess all attributes of God to their maximum.

If this is the case (and I think it is), then in essence all three person's of the Trinity are one. They would never disagree, they would not act differently, they would never think differently, they would be in perfect unison, in perfect relationship at all times, with the same will, purpose, and goals. For there could be no disagreement if each person of the Trinity possessed in equal measure all the attributes of the MGB.

Thus, while they may have different roles, their essence is the same, because they are God. One God, three persons.

Also, while I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, I highly doubt you followed any of the previous links I provided and looked at the material, so I'll just copy/paste some of it here for your benefit.

Essence and Person
Essence. What does essence mean? As I said earlier, it means the same thing as being. God’s essence is his being. To be even more precise, essence is what you are. At the risk of sounding too physical, essence can be understood as the “stuff” that you “consist of.” Of course we are speaking by analogy here, for we cannot understand this in a physical way about God. “God is spirit” (John 4:24). Further, we clearly should not think of God as “consisting of” anything other than divinity. The “substance” of God is God, not a bunch of “ingredients” that taken together yield deity.

Person. In regards to the Trinity, we use the term “Person” differently than we generally use it in everyday life. Therefore it is often difficult to have a concrete definition of Person as we use it in regards to the Trinity. What we do not mean by Person is an “independent individual” in the sense that both I and another human are separate, independent individuals who can exist apart from one another.

What we do mean by Person is something that regards himself as “I” and others as “You.” So the Father, for example, is a different Person from the Son because he regards the Son as a “You,” even though he regards himself as “I.” Thus, in regards to the Trinity, we can say that “Person” means a distinct subject which regards himself as an “I” and the other two as a “You.” These distinct subjects are not a division within the being of God, but “a form of personal existence other than a difference in being” (Grudem, 255; I believe that this is a helpful definition, but it should be recognized that Grudem himself is offering this as more of an explanation than definition of Person).

How do they relate? The relationship between essence and Person, then, is as follows. Within God’s one, undivided being is an “unfolding” into three personal distinctions. These personal distinctions are modes of existence within the divine being, but are not divisions of the divine being. They are personal forms of existence other than a difference in being. The late theologian Herman Bavinck has stated something very helpful at this point: “The persons are modes of existence within the being; accordingly, the Persons differ among themselves as the one mode of existence differs from the other, and — using a common illustration — as the open palm differs from a closed fist” (Bavinck, The Doctrine of God [Banner of Truth Trust, 1991], page 303).

Because each of these “forms of existence” are relational (and thus are Persons), they are each a distinct center of consciousness, with each center of consciousness regarding himself as “I” and the others as “you.” Nonetheless, these three Persons all “consist of” the same “stuff” (that is, the same “what” or essence). As theologian and apologist Norman Geisler has explained it, while essence is what you are, person is who you are. So God is one “what” but three “who’s.”

The divine essence is thus not something that exists “above” or “separate from” the three Persons, but the divine essence is the being of the three Persons. Neither should we think of the Persons as being defined by attributes added on to the being of God. Wayne Grudem explains,

But if each person is fully God and has all of God’s being, then we also should not think that the personal distinctions are any kind of additional attributes added on to the being of God. . . . Rather, each person of the Trinity has all of the attributes of God, and no one Person has any attributes that are not possessed by the others. On the other hand, we must say that the Persons are real, that they are not just different ways of looking at the one being of God . . . the only way it seems possible to do this is to say that the distinction between the persons is not a difference of ‘being’ but a difference of ‘relationships.’ This is something far removed from our human experience, where every different human ‘person’ is a different being as well. Somehow God’s being is so much greater than ours that within his one undivided being there can be an unfolding into interpersonal relationships, so that there can be three distinct persons. (253–254)

What Is the Doctrine of the Trinity?
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,875
11,637
Space Mountain!
✟1,374,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yes, but we don't say that green, blue and red are the same color or ar ethe same color as these three colors of light make together.

Because it violates the laws of logic.
You've obviously missed what I've said previously with my 'organic' analogy. Oh well....

Then why have theologians been spending 2000 years trying to explain it? If it was logical then it wouldn't be an issue for so long. They spend time on it because the Bible has clear statements that there is only one God but also has statements that Jesus is God, the HS is God etc.
.... and? Let me guess, when you look at your big toe, either one of them really, you think to yourself "that toe isn't really me, only my brain is me."

Please tell me you don't think this. It would be kind of odd if you do.
 
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
56
Texas
✟124,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Well that's at least a start, you accept that the explanation doesn't violate the law of non-contradiction. You just need clarification now upon what Christianity means my essence, and by person.
No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that defining terms to be non contradictory does not make it so. You are just asserting it is logical not showing that it is.

Is Jesus God?
Is the HS God?
Is the Father God?
Is there one God?

If we accept that by definition God is a Maximally Great Being (MGB), that is, whatever attributes God possesses, He must necessarily possess them to their maximum, then if we are to say that the Father, Son, and Spirit are one in essence and three in person, then it must be true that each of them, in person, possess all the same attributes of God, or else one person wouldn't be God.
If each of the persons have the same attributes as God then they are all God.

Now, I don't want to get sidetracked into what "ingredients" makeup the MGB, so hopefully we can for the sake of discussion simply accept some basic Christian attributes assigned to God. So let's assume that it is more maximally great for a being to be all powerful (omnipotent) than limited in power. Let's also assume that being eternal is more maximally great than being created. For a being to be God, He must be maximally great, and possess all the attributes of a MGB to their fullest. For example, if God wasn't omnipotent, and another being was omnipotent, then that other being would actually be God.

So for the sake of discussion, let's accept that part of being MGB means the being possesses the following: omnipotence, omniscience, eternality, immutable in character, and goodness.
Ok

Therefore, any being that is God must necessarily possess each of those attributes to their maximum. Therefore, if we say that each person of the Trinity is God, then each person of the Trinity must possess all attributes of God to their maximum.

If this is the case (and I think it is), then in essence all three person's of the Trinity are one. They would never disagree, they would not act differently, they would never think differently, they would be in perfect unison, in perfect relationship at all times, with the same will, purpose, and goals. For there could be no disagreement if each person of the Trinity possessed in equal measure all the attributes of the MGB.

Thus, while they may have different roles, their essence is the same, because they are God. One God, three persons.
If there are three persons and all have the same attributes as God then they are all God, the same. If so there are 3 gods not one. Why is this not so?

Also, while I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, I highly doubt you followed any of the previous links I provided and looked at the material, so I'll just copy/paste some of it here for your benefit.
I read the Piper one. All that said is that we cannot understand fully and then gave explanations that do not solve the logical problem.

Essence and Person
Essence. What does essence mean? As I said earlier, it means the same thing as being. God’s essence is his being. To be even more precise, essence is what you are. At the risk of sounding too physical, essence can be understood as the “stuff” that you “consist of.” Of course we are speaking by analogy here, for we cannot understand this in a physical way about God. “God is spirit” (John 4:24). Further, we clearly should not think of God as “consisting of” anything other than divinity. The “substance” of God is God, not a bunch of “ingredients” that taken together yield deity.

Person. In regards to the Trinity, we use the term “Person” differently than we generally use it in everyday life.
This is admitting that Christians are making up definitions of words to make the trinity "work".

Therefore it is often difficult to have a concrete definition of Person as we use it in regards to the Trinity. What we do not mean by Person is an “independent individual” in the sense that both I and another human are separate, independent individuals who can exist apart from one another.
Again you are just asserting that the trinity is logical by defining it as such.

What we do mean by Person is something that regards himself as “I” and others as “You.” So the Father, for example, is a different Person from the Son because he regards the Son as a “You,” even though he regards himself as “I.” Thus, in regards to the Trinity, we can say that “Person” means a distinct subject which regards himself as an “I” and the other two as a “You.” These distinct subjects are not a division within the being of God, but “a form of personal existence other than a difference in being” (Grudem, 255; I believe that this is a helpful definition, but it should be recognized that Grudem himself is offering this as more of an explanation than definition of Person).
Again just asserting this to be the definition of person does not make it so when the description of the Trinity is still violates the laws of logic.

How do they relate? The relationship between essence and Person, then, is as follows. Within God’s one, undivided being is an “unfolding” into three personal distinctions. These personal distinctions are modes of existence within the divine being, but are not divisions of the divine being. They are personal forms of existence other than a difference in being. The late theologian Herman Bavinck has stated something very helpful at this point: “The persons are modes of existence within the being; accordingly, the Persons differ among themselves as the one mode of existence differs from the other, and — using a common illustration — as the open palm differs from a closed fist” (Bavinck, The Doctrine of God [Banner of Truth Trust, 1991], page 303).

Because each of these “forms of existence” are relational (and thus are Persons), they are each a distinct center of consciousness, with each center of consciousness regarding himself as “I” and the others as “you.” Nonetheless, these three Persons all “consist of” the same “stuff” (that is, the same “what” or essence). As theologian and apologist Norman Geisler has explained it, while essence is what you are, person is who you are. So God is one “what” but three “who’s.”

The divine essence is thus not something that exists “above” or “separate from” the three Persons, but the divine essence is the being of the three Persons. Neither should we think of the Persons as being defined by attributes added on to the being of God. Wayne Grudem explains,

But if each person is fully God and has all of God’s being, then we also should not think that the personal distinctions are any kind of additional attributes added on to the being of God. . . . Rather, each person of the Trinity has all of the attributes of God, and no one Person has any attributes that are not possessed by the others. On the other hand, we must say that the Persons are real, that they are not just different ways of looking at the one being of God . . . the only way it seems possible to do this is to say that the distinction between the persons is not a difference of ‘being’ but a difference of ‘relationships.’ This is something far removed from our human experience, where every different human ‘person’ is a different being as well. Somehow God’s being is so much greater than ours that within his one undivided being there can be an unfolding into interpersonal relationships, so that there can be three distinct persons. (253–254)
Somehow is the key word here. This just says the trinity is true and we don't know why. It just somehow works. This violates the laws of logic and as far as I know no one has ever shown why it does not contradict the laws of logic.

I will ask again:
Is Jesus God?
Is the HS God?
Is the Father God?
Is there one God?

Either there is one God and the persons of the trinity are not God or there are three Gods. Saying:

"Somehow God’s being is so much greater than ours that within his one undivided being there can be an unfolding into interpersonal relationships, so that there can be three distinct persons."

Does not solve anything.
 
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
56
Texas
✟124,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
You've obviously missed what I've said previously with my 'organic' analogy. Oh well....
Why not rebut my point?

.... and? Let me guess, when you look at your big toe, either one of them really, you think to yourself "that toe isn't really me, only my brain is me."

Please tell me you don't think this. It would be kind of odd if you do.
My toe is part of me but not fully me. If my toe had all the attributes that I possess then it would be me and there would be two of me. But it doesn't. My toe cannot think or pump blood or think etc. That is not a representation of the trinity at all. The trinity teaches that all three parts of the trinity are fully god. The same but not the same at the same time. That violates the laws of logic.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,875
11,637
Space Mountain!
✟1,374,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Why not rebut my point?

My toe is part of me but not fully me. If my toe had all the attributes that I possess then it would be me and there would be two of me. But it doesn't. My toe cannot think or pump blood or think etc. That is not a representation of the trinity at all. The trinity teaches that all three parts of the trinity are fully god. The same but not the same at the same time. That violates the laws of logic.

Does the same blood that your heart pumps through your toe also not pump through your brain? And if you don't have a heart, will you still have a brain? I'd answer: no, you do not. You seem to answer: yes, I very well may.

Hogwash!
 
Upvote 0

SPF

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2017
3,594
1,984
ATL
✟149,581.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that defining terms to be non contradictory does not make it so. You are just asserting it is logical not showing that it is.
The law of non-contradiction says that A cannot be both A and non-A at the same time, and in the same relationship.

The confession in Christianity is that God is one in essence and three in Person. God is one in A, and three in B. Now if we said he was one in essence, and three in essence, then that would be a contradiction. Or if we said he is one in person, and three in person, then that would be a contradiction.

What specifically with the above do you take issue with? I'm not defining terms beyond what Christianity has historically and consistently held as the basic, fundamental view of the Trinity. One essence, three persons. This is not contradictory. It passes the test of the law of non-contradiction. If you disagree, then you need to actually be specific and actually explain how the above confession of Christianity violates the law of non-contradiction. You have yet to do that.

Is Jesus God?
Is the HS God?
Is the Father God?
Is there one God?
I explained this already. If you have a question about my explanation, then I welcome any specific questions or specific critiques about the explanations I have provided.


If each of the persons have the same attributes as God then they are all God.
As explained, the nature of God cannot change. God as MGB possesses all godly attributes to their maximum. Thus, all persons of the Godhead are equal and share the same essence.

If there are three persons and all have the same attributes as God then they are all God, the same. If so there are 3 gods not one. Why is this not so?
Tri-Theism is what you're stuck on. Piper says:

There is only one God. If each Person of the Trinity is distinct and yet fully God, then should we conclude that there is more than one God? Obviously we cannot, for Scripture is clear that there is only one God: “There is no other God besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other” (Isaiah 45:21–22; see also Isaiah 44:6–8; Exodus 15:11; Deuteronomy 4:35; 6:4–5; 32:39; 1 Samuel 2:2; 1 Kings 8:60).

Having seen that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, that they are each fully God, and that there is nonetheless only one God, we must conclude that all three Persons are the same God. In other words, there is one God who exists as three distinct Persons.


This is admitting that Christians are making up definitions of words to make the trinity "work".
Can you be specific about what definitions are being "made up" And then after you clarify what the made up definitions are, can you provide alternative working definitions for us to base our conversation on?

This just says the trinity is true and we don't know why. It just somehow works. This violates the laws of logic and as far as I know no one has ever shown why it does not contradict the laws of logic.
How precisely does saying that something is mysterious result in violating a law of logic? I'm not making that connection. As far as I know, the Trinity has never violated a law of logic as it is not asserting, and never has asserted that A is both A and non-A at the same time and in the same relationship.

Either there is one God and the persons of the trinity are not God or there are three Gods
This of course is a false dilemma.

Again, my entire point is not to prove to you that the Trinity actually exists. I'm just trying to help you understand that the Trinity does not violate any laws of logic. Is it mysterious? Yes. Is it beyond our comprehension to explain and understand? Yes. Is that expected? Absolutely.
 
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
56
Texas
✟124,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Does the same blood that your heart pumps through your toe also not pump through your brain? And if you don't have a heart, will you still have a brain? I'd answer: no, you do not. You seem to answer: yes, I very well may.

Hogwash!
Yes the separate parts of my body support the other parts. To say that my toe has the same function/essence as my heart is ridiculous. My toes and heart are part of me. If I lost my toe would I cease to be me? No. If Jesus ceases to exist would God still exist. No. This comparison does not work.
 
  • Optimistic
Reactions: Godistruth1
Upvote 0