What does it mean by One God?

[ViaCrucis]

What do you mean?

The word "person(s)" in application to the Trinity has an explicit definition. To say that three persons are one person, in reference to the Trinity, doesn't make any sense. The English word "person" is, generally speaking, a really bad word here because it carries a lot of ideas that don't apply to the Trinity. But it's a traditional word, because in Latin persona has been used to translate the Greek hypostasis; and conversely so has the use of "person" in this context.

A hypostasis isn't a "person" as we would generally understand it in English. A more accurate (and indeed, literal) translation would be subsistence.

Where the Greek ousia can be translated as either essence or substance, the word hypostasis can be translated as subistence. In Greek ousia is a noun form of the verb eimi, "to be" or "is". The words could be said to be the difference between "What" and "This"; quiddity vs haecceity or "what-ness" vs "this-ness".

The Father (this) is God (what).
The Son (this) is God (what).
The Holy Spirit (this) is God (what).

There are three this's, one what.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

The word "person(s)" in application to the Trinity has an explicit definition. To say that three persons are one person, in reference to the Trinity, doesn't make any sense. The English word "person" is, generally speaking, a really bad word here because it carries a lot of ideas that don't apply to the Trinity. But it's a traditional word, because in Latin persona has been used to translate the Greek hypostasis; and conversely so has the use of "person" in this context.

A hypostasis isn't a "person" as we would generally understand it in English. A more accurate (and indeed, literal) translation would be subsistence.

Where the Greek ousia can be translated as either essence or substance, the word hypostasis can be translated as subistence. In Greek ousia is a noun form of the verb eimi, "to be" or "is". The words could be said to be the difference between "What" and "This"; quiddity vs haecceity or "what-ness" vs "this-ness".

The Father (this) is God (what).
The Son (this) is God (what).
The Holy Spirit (this) is God (what).

There are three this's, one what.

-CryptoLutheran

Is a this and what both god?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Is a this and what both god?

When talking about the Father (for example) the this is the Father, and what the Father is, is God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BigV]

The Father (this) is God (what).
The Son (this) is God (what).
The Holy Spirit (this) is God (what).

There are three this's, one what.

So, humans are also one (what - human) and billions of (this - Joe, Bill, Karen, etc..)?

 

[BigV]

When talking about the Father (for example) the this is the Father, and what the Father is, is God.

I think in Christianity, denying the personhood of Jesus, Holy Spirit or Father is considered a heresy. Jesus, Holy Spirit and the Father are distinct persons, right? So, if they are all God, why doesn't it make them three Gods? If God is a nature, and all three are by nature God, then saying there is one God is like saying there is only one human nature, is it not?

 

[ViaCrucis]

So, humans are also one (what - human) and billions of (this - Joe, Bill, Karen, etc..)?

The difference being that human being is divisible, there are many humans. Joe and Karen are both human, but Joe and Karen are two different instances of humanity, i.e. two different human beings.

In the Trinity the Son is not another instance of deity than the Father, the Son participates in and is of the Deity of the Father. Karen is not human because Joe is human; Karen is not the same human that Joe is.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I think in Christianity, denying the personhood of Jesus, Holy Spirit or Father is considered a heresy.

Sabellianism is heresy, whereby the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are reduced to being nothing more than masks God wears at any given time.

Jesus, Holy Spirit and the Father are distinct persons, right?

Where "person" is understood to refer to the haecceity of the Hypostases, yes.

So, if they are all God, why doesn't it make them three Gods?

The Monarchy of the Father, for one. The Father is God, the Son and the Spirit are God because they have the Father's Deity. This is what the Nicene Creed means when it says that the Son is "God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God" and "one Being with the Father".

If God is a nature, and all three are by nature God, then saying there is one God is like saying there is only one human nature, is it not?

And that's probably a good reason to not try and conceive of "God" as a "nature"; as though it were an abstract concept.

The Son is God from the Father.
The Holy Spirit is God from the Father [and the Son].

The Father is God.
The Son is God, having Being with and from the Father.
The Spirit is God, having Being with and from the Father and the Son.

It is the Father's Deity, as the one God. In and of which the Son and the Holy Spirit are.

The Son is God because the Father is God.
The Spirit is God because the Father and the Son are God.

"And we profess that the Father is not begotten, nor created, but unbegotten. For He Himself, from whom the Son receives His generation and the Holy Spirit His procession, has His origin from none. He is therefore the Source and Origin of Deity. He Himself is the Father of His own Essence, who in an ineffable way has begotten the Son from His ineffable Essence. He did not beget something else from He Himself is: God has begotten God, light has begotten light. From Him, therefore, is 'all fatherhood in heaven and on earth'." - from the 11th Council of Toledo, 675 AD

The Son is not another god, of a species called "god". The Son is God, by His coexistence in and with the Father. The Son is the same God as the Father, because the Son's Deity is the Father's Deity.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Godistruth1]

The trinity is different from polytheism because it's one person, in the usual English sense.

No Christians agree there are three persons in the trinity

 

[ViaCrucis]

No Christians agree there are three persons in the trinity

Hedrick's point was the problem of the English word "person"--there is a lot of linguistic baggage attached to that word as we use it in every day speech.

Notice that when a room is full of more than one person we can say there are "people in that room". Where "person" is treated as the singular form of "people".

The Trinity is not, however, three "people", but rather three "persons".

It's this kind of confusion over the term "person" that can make talking about the Trinity more difficult.

E.g. The Father is not a "person" in the same way that you're a person or that I'm a person. To speak of the Father as a "person" is intended in a very specifically Trinitarian sense. The Father is a a hypostasis, a distinct, discrete reality of expression and existence. Not a "face" in the Sabellian sense, a mask to be worn by an actor playing a role; and not a "person" in the sense of one of many people. But a distinct THIS, who is God, from whom the Son is eternally begotten and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds. Thus THIS ONE is called "Father" because from Him is THAT ONE called the Son; even as THIS ONE is called "Son" because He is begotten from THAT ONE called the Father.

Yes, three Persons. Three who inter-inhabit the other, united in the indivisibility of Being.

In the Sabellian error a single actor puts on different masks--but there's no life, no realness. A mask is just a mask, it is a role to be played, not a reality--a role is not real, it is merely pretend.

In the tritheist error there are three divine beings sharing, perhaps, a title, a job, "God"; but a title or a job is akin to something one wears, like a hat. It's not real, it's just adorned.

Trinitarianism insists on realness.There are Three, there is One.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

When talking about the Father (for example) the this is the Father, and what the Father is, is God.

-CryptoLutheran

So the father is god, Jesus is god and the HS is god. Can these three be in the same room together at the same time?

 

[BigV]

The difference being that human being is divisible, there are many humans. Joe and Karen are both human, but Joe and Karen are two different instances of humanity, i.e. two different human beings.

In the Trinity the Son is not another instance of deity than the Father, the Son participates in and is of the Deity of the Father. Karen is not human because Joe is human; Karen is not the same human that Joe is.

But God is also divisible. Jesus was on Earth where as his Father was in heaven.

Also, Karen is human because her father was human. If the father's name is Joe, then Karen is human because Joe is human.

Karen is not the same as Joe, but Jesus is not the Father also.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So the father is god, Jesus is god and the HS is god. Can these three be in the same room together at the same time?

They are everywhere at all times.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

But God is also divisible. Jesus was on Earth where as his Father was in heaven.

And the Father was present in Jesus while He was on earth, and He in the Father. No division occurred.

Also, Karen is human because her father was human. If the father's name is Joe, then Karen is human because Joe is human.

The Father did not procreate to create Jesus, the Son is uncreated and eternal.

Karen is not the same as Joe, but Jesus is not the Father also.

Karen is a completely different human being than Joe. The Son is not another divinity than the Father.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

They are everywhere at all times.

-CryptoLutheran

I will take the answer as a yes then. If they are all god they cannot be one god at the same time. That defies the laws of logic. Something cannot be something and not something at the same time. God cannot be three gods and 1 god at the same time.

 

[BigV]

And the Father was present in Jesus while He was on earth, and He in the Father. No division occurred.

But this is semantics, right?

What was the beginning of Lord's prayer? Our Father in heaven, (Matt. 6:9)

The Father did not procreate to create Jesus, the Son is uncreated and eternal.

So, why aren't God the Father and Jesus twins then? If both are uncreated, why isn't it called Twinity?

 

[Godistruth1]

They are everywhere at all times

When Jesus was human how was he everywhere at the same time?

 

[ViaCrucis]

When Jesus was human how was he everywhere at the same time?

He's still human. And He fills all things, because He's God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

But this is semantics, right?

What was the beginning of Lord's prayer? Our Father in heaven, (Matt. 6:9)

Not semantics. Jesus said, "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father". The Father is in the Son, so that to know the Son is to know the Father, to meet the Son is to meet the Father; the Son is described by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews as the radiance of the Father's glory, and the express image of His Hypostasis. An encounter with Jesus is, therefore, an encounter with the Father, and an encounter with the Holy Spirit.

Perichoresis is the word we use to describe the inter-inhabiting of the Three Hypostases. No Hypostasis is by Himself, He is always in the Others, and the Others in Himself. Thus the Father is never by Himself, but is always in His Son and Spirit, and they in Him; and likewise with the Son, the Son is never by Himself, but is always in His Father and Spirit, and they in Him; and likewise the Spirit etc. It is impossible to speak of the Father except with His Son and Spirit. The Father does not exist without or apart from His Son and Spirit. The Father never acts except or apart from His Son and Spirit.

Further: "Our Father in heaven" does not mean, "Our Father somewhere up in the sky, or in outer space, or in a galaxy far far away", it refers to the transcendent reality of God over and throughout all things; heaven isn't a "place", but that transcendent reality of God over and throughout all. God was present in the Temple, between the cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant in the Inner Sanctuary; in that sense when the High Priest went through the veil into the Holy of Holies he was, in a sense, stepping into heaven.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I will take the answer as a yes then. If they are all god they cannot be one god at the same time. That defies the laws of logic. Something cannot be something and not something at the same time. God cannot be three gods and 1 god at the same time.

Then it's a good thing there aren't three gods then. Problem solved.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Then it's a good thing there aren't three gods then. Problem solved.

-CryptoLutheran

You cannot solve a logical problem by just asserting it is not a problem.