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What does God want in Christian churches?

BibleloverBill

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Why are you so accusatory judgemental and defensive? Nothing you say is meant that way by me, and If you feel as though I do not know you and what you think I am saying about you, why do you return with what I do not know and experience? You are doing the same thing you accuse me of. I could answer all of that, however, the Spirit in which we are behaving in is the issue now, not these speculations. Your attitude toward other believers should be kind humble and gracious. Be at peace. I said empathize because I meant empathize, thank you. There are no probables or guesses. I simply spoke to your tone and lack of gentleness etc., not create hypotheticals and judgements about hidden motives

I am not condemning you. I am just saying where you are completely wrong about me. I warned you for your own good. Get off your throne. I am trying to teach in this discussion. I have no pride or arrogance. The meek Beatitude is still my favorite from my childhood. I have no hidden motives or hypotheticals. I have not been non-gentle in this discussion. But again you are completely wrong about me and about yourself. And the A-Z list I posted indicates the needed qualities to be a God-pleasing friend of anyone. I have prayed for you in response to each of your postings here before I responded.
 
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RDKirk

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Some have said that they think a God-pleasing church should be to provide an infirmary for the spiritually and psychologically hurt. But Scripture doesn't really support that way of thinking.


"Every member has a resource, every member has a need" tracks with the analogy of the Church as a body. Every member of the body has a role to accomplish in what the body does, but every member also has needs that are fed by the body.

Just as the resources members bring to the body may vary enormously, so do the needs. That pastor didn't limit his thinking to common "ministries" in terms of resources. Rather, he encouraged members to pray for what they had to offer to be revealed.

It might by skills. It might be time. It might be money. It might be extra space in the home. It might be specific knowledge.

Needs can be just as varied. The pastor's staff spend a lot of time matching the identified resources with the identified needs.

Churches--particularly Western congregations--tend to short-change members in this regard.
 
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DeeR.

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I am not condemning you. I am just saying where you are completely wrong about me. I warned you for your own good. Get off your throne. I am trying to teach in this discussion. I have no pride or arrogance. The meek Beatitude is still my favorite from my childhood. I have no hidden motives or hypotheticals. I have not been non-gentle in this discussion. But again you are completely wrong about me and about yourself. And the A-Z list I posted indicates the needed qualities to be a God-pleasing friend of anyone. I have prayed for you in response to each of your postings here before I responded.
You shouldn't say things like get off my throne and I am wrong about myself... just because you pray doesn't mean your are letting the Spirit move through you as you respond.
 
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DeeR.

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***I don't think that you can emphasize with me because you probably have not had any similar experiences that I have had in churches and romance. You might be able to sympathize. But you guessed completely wrong about me. The Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, and Abba Father know my "heart" and my feelings and my thinkings and time usage. Not you. I even know and have experienced God's best LOVE for marriage. Have you? And I know the Full Gospel including about the New Earth. Do you? Again stop making false assumptions. you are completely wrong about me. I started this thread to encourage others to determine what really pleases God in churches.
You are making many assumptions and accusations and comparisons between your qualifications and mine... it is not healthy or productive for any who hear/read. Be at peace.
 
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DeeR.

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***I don't think that you can emphasize with me because you probably have not had any similar experiences that I have had in churches and romance. You might be able to sympathize. But you guessed completely wrong about me. The Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, and Abba Father know my "heart" and my feelings and my thinkings and time usage. Not you. I even know and have experienced God's best LOVE for marriage. Have you? And I know the Full Gospel including about the New Earth. Do you? Again stop making false assumptions. you are completely wrong about me. I started this thread to encourage others to determine what really pleases God in churches.
Your words to me have been :
"I don't think that you can emphasize with me because you probably have not...." accusation and assumption , not a question to find the truth
"But you guessed completely wrong about me. The Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, and Abba Father know my "heart" and my feelings and my thinkings and time usage. Not you." again assumptions and accusations that I never made.
"I even know and have experienced God's best LOVE for marriage. Have you? And I know the Full Gospel including about the New Earth. Do you?" Why are you veiling your accusations and comparisons as questions? He that claims he knows does not yet know as he ought to... ask, rather than make veiled accusations disguised as questions, be sincere and do not compare yourself.
Please let us be at peace and not debate or argue.
 
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Paidiske

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Most pastors have been spoiled, have pride and marriage problems, so it is hard for them to help hurting people.

I have not met many (any?) spoiled pastors. I have met many in danger of burnout, or who have been bullied by their congregations, though. The stresses of being a pastor are many, and often hidden.

Have you read Dr. Jay E. Adams' and Dr. Wayne Mack's books? They are better than Dr. Narrimore's books, because he mainly relied on the secular anti-Christianity theories.

I don't think I've come across the work of any of those authors. But I am not a qualified counsellor, and I refer people on to others if they need that kind of in-depth work.

If I may, part of the difficulty in this thread might be that this area is not usually used for one member to "teach" others, but for mutual sharing and encouragement. People can feel looked down upon when others presume to teach them without that being sought.
 
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DeeR.

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DeeR.

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Not too long back I attended a bible study group for the first time and I was completely open and ready to receive and participate. When I arrived and met the people in attendance I noticed some very concerning things. First there was nothing but numerous sweets and very unhealthy things everywhere (nothing but, in fact) and I was saddened by this.
Second there showed to be a lack of discipline and clear order in the purpose we were there and the interactions/ study.
Third, members were focusing on outward things and not realizing the importance of the spiritual meanings of those things taught. We lost focus so much and strayed to unedifying topics that I had to gently lead us back to the topic and focus, by the Spirit numerous times.
My point is that I would never invite a new member or someone seeking God to a place like this. I would question whether one should even stay if they are not strong enough & called to do so while being careful not to be tempted or stumble. The assemblies/believers need to be our focus until we have a place to invite others, so they are coming to an orderly assembly where the Spirit of God rests maturely and in power. The first order of God is to start in one's own household... how can one help another if one can not even do so in one's own house? They can not.
 
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BibleloverBill

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"Every member has a resource, every member has a need" tracks with the analogy of the Church as a body. Every member of the body has a role to accomplish in what the body does, but every member also has needs that are fed by the body.

Just as the resources members bring to the body may vary enormously, so do the needs. That pastor didn't limit his thinking to common "ministries" in terms of resources. Rather, he encouraged members to pray for what they had to offer to be revealed.

It might by skills. It might be time. It might be money. It might be extra space in the home. It might be specific knowledge.

Needs can be just as varied. The pastor's staff spend a lot of time matching the identified resources with the identified needs.

Churches--particularly Western congregations--tend to short-change members in this regard.


***I have never witnessed such. Every time I have gone to church or met someone, I look for the good; I have never looked for bad because it manifests on its own. But most church attendees don't know enough of the Bible to discern God-pleasling good and God-pleasing bad. I used to be with a woman who always said "Amen" to any positive statement said from the pulpit, even the unBiblical ones. She is an internationally known university professor, but has never been a Bible student.
 
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DeeR.

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***I have never witnessed such. Every time I have gone to church or met someone, I look for the good; I have never looked for bad because it manifests on its own. But most church attendees don't know enough of the Bible to discern God-pleasling good and God-pleasing bad. I used to be with a woman who always said "Amen" to any positive statement said from the pulpit, even the unBiblical ones. She is an internationally known university professor, but has never been a Bible student.
RDKirk is simply stating what the scriptures say ....1 Corinthians
It is not seen much because the church is in infancy in many ways.... sick and not maturing
 
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BibleloverBill

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Some call their church an assembly. But most assemble for selfish reasons and not to just enjoy praising God and learning His wonderful truths.

What God hates in our churches:

R -- ritual
E -- earnestness for superficiality
L -- legalistic
I -- ignorant of a lot of what is God-pleasing
G -- going on with un-Biblical tradition
I -- “I” problem especially in pride and selfishness
O -- obnoxious
N -- nasty, hypocritical, and condemnatory like the Pharisees of old

Instead what should be happening:
F -- fear not
A -- assurance from God's Word
I -- in God's love
T -- trust in God and the Bible
H -- holiness with Holy Spirit and Bible help

P -- power from Heaven
R -- ruled/guided by the agapè love of God and His Word
A -- attentive to the Holy Spirit
Y
-- yearning for God's truths and repentance to righteousness by many
E -- earnest to be righteous and compassionate
R -- ready for the return of the Messiah and His deliverance for believers

G -- God
R -- Redeemer
A -- acts of God
T -- teaching by the Bible and the Holy Spirit
I -- intimacy with Jesus Christ
T -- toleration by the God of grace
U -- understanding by God and others
D -- divine love-- agapè
E -- eternity in the future

C -- Christ, confession
H -- Holy Spirit help
A -- attitudes and actions
N -- needs
G -- good works (Ephesians 2:10)
E -- everywhere for eternity

C -- commitment to God's truth
O -- obedience to the Holy Spirit
U -- understanding God's desires
R -- revival spiritually
A -- attentiveness for opportunities to minister
G -- gratefulness to God, especially for His protection
E -- enduring in faith of God


C -- Christ-likeness, unselfish concerns, & consideration
O -- observations
M -- mercy & money sharing
P -- perseverance, prayer, & patience
A -- attentiveness
S -- specific needs fulfilling
S -- spiritual reasons
I -- ideas & inspiration
O -- obedience to the Holy Spirit
N -- necessary or needed attitudes, actions, & aspirations


R -- respect for one another and receiving of them
E -- emotions (listening to) and exhorting in a caring/teaching way
S -- Scripture sharing: what does the Bible say about the situation needing restoration?
T -- t
eaching from a Holy Spirit-led pastor, Biblical counselor, or an appropriate Scripture-filled book
O -- obedience to God's Word and the Holy Spirit encouragement
R -- repentance encouragement: proper changes of thinking and behavior habits
A -- appreciation and adoration (not flattery)
T -- trusting again help
I -- intertwine souls encouragement
O -- outreach encouragement: sharing good news and lessons with others
N -- notify relatives encouragement about the new ways of thinking and behavior
 
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BibleloverBill

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RDKirk is simply stating what the scriptures say ....1 Corinthians
It is not seen much because the church is in infancy in many ways.... sick and not maturing

???

Current Christianity grieves God a lot. Face reality, Dee. I will obey 2 Timothy 3:5 in relation to you. Bye.
 
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BibleloverBill

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I have not met many (any?) spoiled pastors. I have met many in danger of burnout, or who have been bullied by their congregations, though. The stresses of being a pastor are many, and often hidden.

***What I meant by spoiled pastors are ones who had easy childhoods and had never worked in secular environments. Most of them were just carrying on the family pastor heritage.

Did you know that several true Christian USA evangelists wanted to start Restoration Centers for the burned-out troubled pastors and they were not permitted to do so. I grieved about those failures.
C -- Christ-likeness, unselfish concerns, & consideration

O -- observations

M -- mercy & money sharing

P -- perseverance, prayer, & patience

A -- attentiveness

S -- specific needs fulfilling

S -- spiritual reasons

I -- ideas & inspiration

O -- obedience to the Holy Spirit

N -- necessary or needed attitudes, actions, & aspirations



R -- respect for one another and receiving of them

E -- emotions (listening to) and exhorting in a caring/teaching way

S -- Scripture sharing: what does the Bible say about the situation needing restoration?

T -- teaching from a Holy Spirit-led pastor, Biblical counselor, or an appropriate Scripture-filled book

O -- obedience to God's Word and the Holy Spirit encouragement

R -- repentance encouragement: proper changes of thinking and behavior habits

A -- appreciation and adoration (not flattery)

T -- trusting again help

I -- intertwine souls encouragement

O -- outreach encouragement: sharing good news and lessons with others

N -- notify relatives encouragement about the new ways of thinking and behavior



I don't think I've come across the work of any of those authors. But I am not a qualified counsellor, and I refer people on to others if they need that kind of in-depth work. ***Biblical counseling and Biblical counselors are a rarity. Most people go to secular psychologists and psychoanalysts who only want to help their patients to blame some individuals and events in their pasts to blame for their current problems. Even hypnosis is used. Instead the only way to learn from our pasts is to seek Holy Spirit help to help one to understand the mistakes and sins in one's past and and how to make changes to the appropriate righteousness. Dr. Adams said usually patients were healed within months when such counseling was done.

If I may, part of the difficulty in this thread might be that this area is not usually used for one member to "teach" others, but for mutual sharing and encouragement. People can feel looked down upon when others presume to teach them without that being sought.
***Arguments do not bear fruit; good discussions do bear fruit when participants want to learn. The word “opinion” is found only 3 times in the KJV Bible, all in Job 32 in one of Job's friend's exhortation speeches. And modern media (especially the talk shows) and gossip times (especially in Christian churches) are mostly negative opinions. Philippians 2:1-5 and Ephesians 4:11-16 indicates a top priority of Christians should be learning Jesus Christ, how He thinks and how He ministered when He was in human form. And God said, “So shall My Word be that goes forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.” [Isaiah 55:11] My suggestions are in the following Scripture passages: Ephesians 2:1-10, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, Proverbs 3:5-6, Philippians 2:1-5, Ephesians 4:11-16, and Jude 20-25.
---Staff Edit---
 
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Paidiske

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Quote function's not working properly, but you said:

"***What I meant by spoiled pastors are ones who had easy childhoods and had never worked in secular environments. Most of them were just carrying on the family pastor heritage. "

Maybe this is why I didn't know what you meant; I really only know perhaps one person like that. Maybe it's different in America, but in Australia most of us come into ministry as a second career. I worked in the pharmaceutical industry before I discerned a call to ministry.

Looking at Philippians 2:1-5, I think the way I'd teach that would be very different depending on the circumstances of the congregation. What strikes me today is the mention of encouragement in Christ; looking at a congregation who are struggling with a changing world and a changing church, trying to deal with grief for the past and anxiety about the future, it seems to me that that encouragement is so very badly needed; and I imagine I'd focus on pointing out to them that working on unity is actually going to strengthen them, individually and corporately.

That's just a first thought as I sit here with my first cup of tea of the morning, though.
 
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DeeR.

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???

Current Christianity grieves God a lot. Face reality, Dee. I will obey 2 Timothy 3:5 in relation to you. Bye.
Geez you'd argue with a rock like you argue with every Christian trying to help you, Guess you have the right to see what you want. I agree with you about the church not being well and you tell me to face reality. Definitely done with you; then you further call the power of the Spirit within me not real; I feel sad for you in your judgements of my relationship with the Holy Spirit, and not even having met me. All of this is a good example for me and others of what to stay away from. Thank God he allows you to feel you want nothing to do with me I am truly blessed in this. May God convict you of your sins of unrighteous judgements, especially against His children and Spirit.
What a hateful thing to say And using the scripture to insult and judge me (You will obey 2 Timothy 3:5 in relation to me) Shame on you, I mean really, Shame on you.
 
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BibleloverBill

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Oh, I must not have been clear. I left the pharmaceutical world and I work full time as a priest.


In the USA and Nigeria, I have met many pastors who have to do secular jobs to help support the churches they lead. It is too bad that because pastors should be fulltime because there is so much to do and I have been told that only 3% of the attendees are doing almost all of the needed work and ministries assisting and financing in the churches.
 
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BibleloverBill

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This is important in God-pleasing churches too:
In response to some postings I read today, I just started a new thread in this site in 2 places and the Christian Chat and Forums site:
***The Golden Rule (“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” is similarly in 20 Holy Books other than the Bible. I teach the Golden Rule this way and live it most of the time: "Think before I say or do things, would I want them said or done to me." Most of our mistakes are when we are too hasty in communicating and don't take time to think of the possible consequences and ask God to guide us via His Holy Spirit. This is why I don't do chat rooms, even though with Holy Spirit help I have done quite well in all of the Bible discussion groups in churches and in homes. We would have a wonderful world if such was done a lot more, but anxiousness and selfishness usually stop such. That verse is actually secular and humanistic. It doesn't mention God or Jesus. In the past 15 years of Internet ministering this issue and unforgiveness have been very prevalent. But the better way of living is indicated in Romans 8 and Galatians 5:1-6:10. What is indicated in those Bible passages for daily living? What do you think is Resurrection living?
 
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Paidiske

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In the USA and Nigeria, I have met many pastors who have to do secular jobs to help support the churches they lead. It is too bad that because pastors should be fulltime because there is so much to do and I have been told that only 3% of the attendees are doing almost all of the needed work and ministries assisting and financing in the churches.

It's difficult, because often it's because a church is small and has few people to do things, that it also can't afford to pay staff. If I could leave, say, administration to lay people and only do the things that we think of as actual ministry work, I'd be able to be much more effective; but somebody has to answer the phone, reply to the email, sort out the advertising, all that sort of stuff.
 
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