What Does Aionios Mean? (part 2, It is wrong to define aionios based on aion)

[ClementofA]

5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This is what you said earlier.

God is not going to restore Sodom. Sodom will be raised to the resurrection of damnation, not life.

According to Ezekiel Sodom will be restored. That will occur after they are "damned" which is more correctly translated as "judged". Likewise the salvation of Sodom is proven here:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Fifteen Reasons for Preaching Christian Universalism

Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

 

[ClementofA]

In considering the meaning of eis ton aiona, here are all the passages in the New Testament that use that exact phrase. The meaning "forever" (or when preceded by "not", "never", meaning "not forever") can fit every single passage. Alternate meaning like "lasting for an age" could fit some of the contexts, but is a terrible fit for many of these verses:

Greek scholar Marvin Vincent said:

"Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17."

[by Marvin R. Vincent, from Word Studies in the New Testament (Grand Rapids: William B Eerdmans, 1973, p.58f).]

Note on Olethron Aionion (Eternal Destruction) – What The Hell Is Hell?
All You Want to Know About Hell

Exodus 21:6:

Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (KJV)
Then he will be his servant for life. (NIV)
and he shall serve him permanently. (NASB)

Exodus 21:6, LXX has "eis ton aionas", clearly using it of finite duration. The phrase "eis ton aionas" does not mean forever in Exo.21:6.

The LXX scholars translated the Hebrew "le olam" as "eis ton aionas" in Exo.21:6. Obviously "le olam" does not mean forever or endless duration there (in the Hebrew) either.

The book "Life Time Entirety" refers on p.134 to the following passage where "eis ton aiona" is finite:

I Maccabees 14:41

καὶ ὅτι οἱ Ιουδαῖοι καὶ οἱ ἱερεῖς εὐδόκησαν τοῦ εἶναι αὐτῶν Σιμωνα ἡγούμενον καὶ ἀρχιερέα εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα ἕως τοῦ ἀναστῆναι προφήτην πιστὸν

Also that the Jews and priests were well pleased that Simon should be their governor and high priest for ever [eis ton aióna], until [eós]there should arise a faithful prophet

Likewise on p.133 it gives the same type of example of "eis ton aióna" being of finite duration in Isa.32:14-17.

Life Time Entirety. A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Oldmantook]

Although John could have used the future tense of "remain", there was no need for him to do so. In Greek, the main emphasis of the tense is on the type of action. The present tense typically refers to a continuous action. In the indicative mood, it can also refer to the time of the action. In this case, being in the indicative mood, it appears likely to refer to both. The person is currently "continuing to remain". But the very meaning of the word "remain" points to continuing for some period of time.

Thus, even in English, it is not necessary to use the future tense ("will remain") when speaking of remaining into the future. In fact, none of the three translations I included above use the future tense although all three speak of remaining forever. How much more is this true in Greek, where the nature of the action is emphasized more than the timing of the action.

Yes the Greek verb tenses unlike English, refer primarily to action rather than time. The present tense with the indicative mood represents contemporaneous action, as opposed to action in the past or future. In moods other than in the indicative mood, it refers only to continuous or repeated action.
When used in the indicative mood, the present tense denotes action taking place or going on in the present time. It does not reference or "look to the future" as you put it.

Most importantly, even based on the universalist interpretation of eis ton aiona, this phrase is modifying the verb "remain" by telling us how long the person remains for. The meaning for eis ton aiona you have argued for is basically "lasting for an age". If I'm wrong, please tell me what you think "eis ton aiona" means. Even with your meaning, "remains" is looking into the future. The question is, how far into the future? Is John telling us that the world will pass away while we will endure for a limited age, or is he telling us that the world will pass away while we will endure forever?

As I noted above, with respect to 1 Jn 2:17, no reference to the future can be made since the present tense coupled with the indicative mood denotes present time. Thus you are barking up the wrong tree, so to speak, when you inquire "how far into the future?" Rather this verse describes believers who presently abide/remain as having life in the vine - in this age/time. It is describing life in the Spirit which we presently have as long as we presently abide and obey His commands and not give in to the desires of the world. He presently remains/abides in us as long as we presently remain/abide in Him. John repeats this idea one chapter later in 1 Jn 3:24:
"The one who habitually keeps His commandments [obeying His word and following His precepts, abides and] remains in Him, and He in him. By this we know and have the proof that He [really] abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us [as a gift]." AMP
The desires of the world are indeed passing away, but those who do the will of God remain presently attached to the vine. Properly understood, no reference at all to eternity.

In considering the meaning of eis ton aiona, here are all the passages in the New Testament that use that exact phrase. The meaning "forever" (or when preceded by "not", "never", meaning "not forever") can fit every single passage. Alternate meaning like "lasting for an age" could fit some of the contexts, but is a terrible fit for many of these verses:

There is a problem with your argument as I see it. Indeed you cite passages where it makes sense that only "forever" fits. I don't have a problem with that. However in order for your argument to be a valid one, you would have to demonstrate that forever - always and without exception - always means forever/eternity. Just because lasting for an age is a terrible fit for many of these verses as you say, it does not automatically entail that it is a terrible fit for all of these applicable verses as alternate explanations/interpretations do exist. I think the following link, illustrates the point. According to this poster's opinion, "...the teaching of universalism does not stand or fall with the translation of the word aiónios, while the doctrine of endless torment can only be proven true if it can be shown, that aiónios means strict infinity or endlessness in all occasions....
a look on the phrase eis ton aióna

 

[Oldmantook]

How does chapter 25 begin?
Is the time of gnashing of teeth before the millennium or at the end of the world?
Matthew 13 shows the time of tares is then and they are taken away to be burned in a furnace of fire.
Matthew 25 begins with what word?
Then
chapter 24.........Heaven and earth shall pass away...that day....gnashing of teeth....Then/ch 25 shall....sheep...goats...everlasting punishment.

Chapter 24 is no longer about the rapture once it gets to verse 35. Heaven and earth shall pass away...ch 25 "Then shall...."

This is the day and hour that is not known to men and it is the same time referred to in the parable of the ten virgins in chapter 25.
Matthew 25:13

“Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

Matthew 25:30

“And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 24 refers to the Second Coming of Christ. Matthew 25 also refers to the Second Coming of Christ. There is no such thing as the rapture which refers to a separate event preceding the Second Coming. In other words, the "rapture" and the Second Coming are one and the same event - not two separate events. The judgement of nations (sheep/goats) takes place once Christ returns at his Second Coming. Since this is a side topic, I suggest you start another thread if you want to pursue it further.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I turned my attention to 2 Thess 1:9 which the OP proposed as a text contradicting the universalist position. The Greek word in question is olethron | ὄλεθρον which can be translated as destruction or ruin. If destruction is the appropriate translation of olethron, then in my mind that would mean that the individual in the lake of fire is somehow destroyed which could mean cessation of existence per the annihilist view. Yet, how can a person cease to exist for an age-during time only?.

You seem to be basing your argument on your biased view of universalism, instead of letting the text guide you . You seem to be already convinced that a loving holy God would not send the lost to a lake of fire for ever and ever where the fire is never quenched, so you have to try and make it fit your bias. This is not a good thing and many in other religious views do similar. For example when I talk to the JW"s cult, they are shown some clear verses that expose them. But because they already have a view they will not budge. Its like they say "don't bother me with the facts I believe what I do"

I once was talking to a SDA person with another brother and we showed her a section of scripture that corrected her view. She looked at it, was stunned and said "I choose not to believe that". Well at least she was honest in her rejection of scripture to her own destruction however.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The fact that a person has eternal life while they are in a limited age does not mean their eternal life does not last beyond that age.

That was a very good point!

Eternal Life is Jesus Christ himself as 1 John 1 and 5 and and other places say

 

[Oldmantook]

You seem to be basing your argument on your biased view of universalism, instead of letting the text guide you . You seem to be already convinced that a loving holy God would not send the lost to a lake of fire for ever and ever where the fire is never quenched, so you have to try and make it fit your bias. This is not a good thing and many in other religious views do similar. For example when I talk to the JW"s cult, they are shown some clear verses that expose them. But because they already have a view they will not budge. Its like they say "don't bother me with the facts I believe what I do"

I once was talking to a SDA person with another brother and we showed her a section of scripture that corrected her view. She looked at it, was stunned and said "I choose not to believe that". Well at least she was honest in her rejection of scripture to her own destruction however.

No; I have studied the subject for a few years both from a historical standpoint and well as textually. You and I first believed what we were taught - because the person who taught or discipled us believed it. The Bereans whom Paul preached to examined Scripture to see if what Paul taught was true. I don't believe everything I was taught and examine it for myself. You might want to do likewise and examine the scriptures for yourself.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes the Greek verb tenses unlike English, refer primarily to action rather than time. The present tense with the indicative mood represents contemporaneous action, as opposed to action in the past or future. In moods other than in the indicative mood, it refers only to continuous or repeated action.
When used in the indicative mood, the present tense denotes action taking place or going on in the present time. It does not reference or "look to the future" as you put it.
As I noted above, with respect to 1 Jn 2:17, no reference to the future can be made since the present tense coupled with the indicative mood denotes present time. ...

I don't see any support for these grammatical arguments from any credible Greek grammar.

Indicative Mood
The indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's or speaker's perspective. Even if the writer is lying, he may state the action as if it is a fact, and thus the verb would be in the indicative mood. It may be action occurring in past, present, or future time. This 'statement of fact' can even be made with a negative adverb modifying the verb (see the second example).
This is in contrast to one of the other moods (see below) in which the writer/speaker may desire or ask for the action to take place.
Present Tense
The present tense usually denotes continuous kind of action. It shows 'action in progress' or 'a state of persistence.' When used in the indicative mood, the present tense denotes action taking place or going on in the present time.​

 

[LoveofTruth]

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."(John 3:36)

Notice again, they "shall not [future and present tense] see life", and all that awaits them is the wrath of God that will abide [meaning remain, continue in Greek] upon them.

then this similar verse below in the positive for those who do believe.

" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."(John 5:24 KJV)

These two verses say similar to other verses that show both sides. The ones with eternal life and the ones with eternal damnation.

Also there is no twisting pf the word "aionios" here. Shall not see, and shall not come into Is a future word that is definitive.

These two verses defeat universalism I believe.

I am curious how universalist will address these two verses and the words "shall not see life" and shall not come into condemnation".

If the lost ever do see life then was Jesus speaking truth?

 

[ClementofA]

"(John 3:36)

No the sons of men there were the Jews and Jeremiah etc. God was dealing with His people.

KJV (and almost all others) disagree with you:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

It's "sons of men", BTW, not sons of the Jews or sons of Israel.

To say they "shall not see life" is definitive. They shall not ever see it.

The context is about eonian life, not eternal life. Such as life in the age (or eon) to come, e.g. the millennial age eon kingdom of Christ:

"and in the coming eon, life eonian." (Lk.18:30, CLV)

"He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (Jn.3:36)

Unless, of course, they repent & believe. As all will do.

At any time, in this life or the next, one believes, then they will "see life".

All were once unbelievers & stubborn. Did that mean they could not "ever" see life, as you claim? Of course not. Otherwise we'd all be lost for "ever".

Following your reasoning leads to everyone being lost for "ever", you yourself included.

But Christ is the "Saviour of the world" (John 4), not as your theology says the Saviour of a few & eternal tormentor of many.

And Christ is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), not the sin of a few & burn most in fire forever.

"Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures or the power of God"

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Oldmantook]

I don't see any support for these grammatical arguments from any credible Greek grammar.

Indicative Mood
The indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's or speaker's perspective. Even if the writer is lying, he may state the action as if it is a fact, and thus the verb would be in the indicative mood. It may be action occurring in past, present, or future time. This 'statement of fact' can even be made with a negative adverb modifying the verb (see the second example).
This is in contrast to one of the other moods (see below) in which the writer/speaker may desire or ask for the action to take place.
Present Tense
The present tense usually denotes continuous kind of action. It shows 'action in progress' or 'a state of persistence.' When used in the indicative mood, the present tense denotes action taking place or going on in the present time.​

Not sure I understand your claim. The scripture in question employs a present tense verb in the indicative mood; therefore from the writer's (John's) view, he factually "denotes action taking place or going on in the present time" - which is what I wrote.

 

[Der Alte]

Not sure I understand your claim. The scripture in question employs a present tense verb in the indicative mood; therefore from the writer's (John's) view, he factually "denotes action taking place or going on in the present time" - which is what I wrote.

The relevant part of your post again.

Begin quote

the Greek verb tenses unlike English, refer primarily to action rather than time. The present tense with the indicative mood represents contemporaneous action, as opposed to action in the past or future. In moods other than in the indicative mood, it refers only to continuous or repeated action.
When used in the indicative mood, the present tense denotes action taking place or going on in the present time. It does not reference or "look to the future" as you put it.
As I noted above, with respect to 1 Jn 2:17, no reference to the future can be made since the present tense coupled with the indicative mood denotes present time. ...

End quote

The grammar rules I posted make no such distinction as "no reference to the future can be made"

The indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's or speaker's perspective. Even if the writer is lying, he may state the action as if it is a fact, and thus the verb would be in the indicative mood. It may be action occurring in past, present, or future time.​

Please feel free to support your assertion from a credible grammar.

 

[Oldmantook]

The relevant part of your post again.

the Greek verb tenses unlike English, refer primarily to action rather than time. The present tense with the indicative mood represents contemporaneous action, as opposed to action in the past or future. In moods other than in the indicative mood, it refers only to continuous or repeated action.
When used in the indicative mood, the present tense denotes action taking place or going on in the present time. It does not reference or "look to the future" as you put it.
As I noted above, with respect to 1 Jn 2:17, no reference to the future can be made since the present tense coupled with the indicative mood denotes present time. ...​

The grammar rules I posted make no such distinction as "no reference to the future can be made"

The indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's or speaker's perspective. Even if the writer is lying, he may state the action as if it is a fact, and thus the verb would be in the indicative mood. It may be action occurring in past, present, or future time.​

Please feel free to support your assertion from a credible grammar.

Yes the indicative mood may refer to past present or future. But verb in question - menei - is a present tense verb. Therefore action which is now, present and ongoing; i.e. "abiding."

 

[LoveofTruth]

The context is about eonian life, not eternal life. Such as life in the age (or eon) to come, e.g. the millennial age eon kingdom of Christ:

no, I said

"LoveofTruth said: ↑
To say they "shall not see life" is definitive. They shall not ever see it."

Your trying to be very sneaky to avoid the obvious. I was not talking about "aionios" life here specifically, but the word "life" (zoe) in greek meaning of all things "life" Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the LIFE. That life is himself just as the eternal life is Himself also. That eternal life can be in a believer or not.

Notice the verse says, they shall not (future tense) see life. But the wrath of God abides (remains, continues) on them.

Unless, of course, they repent & believe. As all will do.

where does the scripture say that all will repent and believe in the end? Jesus said they "shall not see life" but the wrath of God abides on them. This abiding ( continuing and remaining) wrath is in now way said to end or not abide ( continue or remain) on them. The verse simply says nothing of the sort. You are adding to the text and creating your fantasy made up stuff again.

If some can't see how important these two verses i quoted are I can only pray they would.

At any time, in this life or the next, one believes, then they will "see life".

Jesus didn't say that. He said "they shall NOT see life", but the wrath of God abides on them.

He did not say as you say, "they shall not see life until they believe then they will see life" No he simply did not say that. He said the opposite and a final statement of warning.

All were once unbelievers & stubborn. Did that mean they could not "ever" see life, as you claim? Of course not. Otherwise we'd all be lost for "ever".

Following your reasoning leads to everyone being lost for "ever", you yourself included.

No I quoted two verses that show the contrast and the final shall not see and shall not come into condemnation. The "shall not" part is damning to universalist. They insist jesus is saying "they shall see life one day".

Yes all were in unbelief at one time and then received the truth of the gospel and were saved as they abide in Christ through faith. But Jesus said

"" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."(John 5:24 KJV)

So there is a condition upon passing from death to life. And for the lost he said.When a person believes and is saved and if they continue in the faith and overcome till the end they shall not come into condemnation. Belief must be continual. But if they believe not and die in that state as in life so in death and forever, they "shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. The abiding wrath is another key phrase. It shoes that God's wrath will never be quenched and will "continue and remain" forever.

Show me in the verse where it says, or even implies that Gopd's wrath shall be ended and not abideth on the unbelievers now or after death? God's wrath is on all the unbelievers even now in their life and if they die in their sins it will be on them as well. The trouble with universalism in these verses is that they can't run to their twist of the word "aionios". The words are not on their side that I am stressing. Life the words "shall not see life, and Gods wrath "abideth" on him.

""He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."(John 3:36 KJV)

That word applies also to God

2 Timothy 2:13 KJV
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

the question is , If "abideth" means it will change and the "abiding" (continuing and remaining) wrath will end. Then the word "abideth" does not mean what it actually means and we must also apply this to God's character as shown in 2 Tim 2:13.
But scripture says that God "abideth faithful", he cannot (ever) deny himself. So the word "abideth" in this verse is attached to the understanding that God cannot deny himself ever. Snd the word "abideth" here also means,"continue remain" just as it does in John 3:36. And we know that God's faithfulness continues and remains (or abideth) forever, it is tied with the fact that God CANNOT deny himself.


So again universalism is a false doctrine and must be avoided at all cost.

 

[ClementofA]

Your trying to be very sneaky to avoid the obvious. I was not talking about "aionios" life here specifically,

Why aren't you? That's the context of the same verse! So that's the "life" that is being referred to. Life in a future age, e.g. the millennium:

The context is about eonian life, not eternal life. Such as life in the age (or eon) to come, e.g. the millennial age eon kingdom of Christ:

"and in the coming eon, life eonian." (Lk.18:30, CLV)

"He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (Jn.3:36)

Unless, of course, they repent & believe. As all will do.

At any time, in this life or the next, one believes, then they will "see life".

All were once unbelievers & stubborn. Did that mean they could not "ever" see life, as you claim? Of course not. Otherwise we'd all be lost for "ever".

Following your reasoning leads to everyone being lost for "ever", you yourself included.

But Christ is the "Saviour of the world" (John 4), not as your theology says the Saviour of a few & eternal tormentor of many.

And Christ is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), not the sin of a few & burn most in fire forever.

where does the scripture say that all will repent and believe in the end?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

But if they believe not and die in that state as in life so in death and forever, they "shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

There is no "forever" in any of the passages you have ever quoted.

Show me in the verse where it says, or even implies that Gopd's wrath shall be ended and not abideth on the unbelievers now or after death?

See all i wrote above, in support of Biblical Universalism. God's wrath can end:

Because I have sinned against him,
I will bear the LORD’s wrath,
until he pleads my case
and upholds my cause.
He will bring me out into the light;
I will see his righteousness.
(Micah 7:9)

God's wrath is on all the unbelievers even now in their life and if they die in their sins it will be on them as well.

UNTIL they believe & are saved.

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again UNTIL you have paid the last penny.

the question is , If

"abideth" means it will change and the "abiding" (continuing and remaining) wrath will end. Then the word "abideth" does not mean what it actually means and we must also apply this to God's character as shown in 2 Tim 2:13.
But scripture says that God "abideth faithful", he cannot (ever) deny himself. So the word "abideth" in this verse is attached to the understanding that God cannot deny himself ever. Snd the word "abideth" here also means,"continue remain" just as it does in John 3:36. And we know that God's faithfulness continues and remains (or abideth) forever, it is tied with the fact that God CANNOT deny himself.

Nonsense. Jesus spoke of abiding "until", which proves abiding can come to an end:

Mt.10:11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.

"Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures"

So again universalism is a false doctrine and must be avoided at all cost.

So, again, universalism is proven Scriptural & glorifying to God Who is Love Omnipotent, not a torturer for eternity.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

my threads:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

 

[LoveofTruth]

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

the verse says

"18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."(Romans 5:18 KJV)

You don't understand this verse it speaks of two specifics things and touches on the great mystery.

First the reading is saying that as by one man's sin ( Adam) judgement came upon all men. Yes all die in Adam. But through the righteousness of one (Jesus Christ) and his death for sin burial and resurrection showing forth the righteousness of God), the "free gift" came upon all men unto justification of life.

This "free gift" I understand to be the "seed that is sown" in the hearts of all men, it is called the "word of God", the "True Light that eightieth every man that cometh into the world" John 1:9. This is "the truth" that men hold in unrighteousness, (Romans 1:18), it is "that which may be known of God manifest in them" (Romans 1:19 KJV). It is the "work of the law through Christ truth and Light working in their hearts ( Romans 2:14,15) given to men to shine in their hearts. This "free gift" of God's seed, Christ., Was purchased for all men through Christ work on the cross in time. This came upon all men, even infants who are born into the world.

When a child enters into the world, Christ died for them as well. They are all saved I believe through the righteousness of Christ for their sin and God's grace. When they "hate the light" as all will do (John 3, Romans 7:9) when sin revives and their sin nature is provoked by the law, they will die (spiritually) and need to be born again (Romans 7:9, John 3:3) . This is when they "understand" the word and the commandment comes to their understanding. Then they are accountable for their sin, some call this the age of accountability.
But even after they grow and understand the word and commandment, Christ still gave all men that "free gift" for justification", for those who hear his word after they die spiritually ( Romans 7) still need to be born again. This "seed" is still "the life" and Jesus speaks of this "word sown in all hearts" and the way each heart responds to it. Paul calls this a "treasure in earthen vessels" where God shines his light in our hearts in the face of Jesus Christ 2 Cor 4.

So, I see this verse applies to all who come into the world as equally it applies to all who came into the world from Adam and were condemned by His sin. A infant still has a sin nature, but they are not aware of sin yet. To him that knoweth to do good and does it not, to him it is sin. The infant doesn't know or do evil yet. So where no law is there is no transgression, and sin is transgression of the [known} law. Sin is not imputed where there is no law. .

But it also applies to this who have had sin revived and died (Romans 7:9) and this "free gift "is still given for their life if they are born again This is the great mystery that hath been hid ( but was there hidden in the OT) which is Christ in you the hope of glory..

Infant salvation is a long talk and many scriptures need to be shown. But this verse and even the other verse that says that Christ is the saviour of all men, special of them that believe, is also connected to this idea as I understand.

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

"19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5;19 KJV)

Again, this applies to those who are in Christ alone, not to those who die outside of Christ. Only in Christ can any be made the righteousness of God. If a person does not believe then they are judged and the light that is in then becomes darkness. Jesus said while on the earth walk in the light lest darkness come upon you and while you have the light, believe in the light.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Notice how it doesn't say every creature in hell or judgement of God. You are reading into it.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

The nations of them which are saved

Revelation 21:24
"And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings ofthe earth do bring their glory and honour into it."

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

Read on a few verses

""5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.......7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:7-8 KJV)

New for those who are saved in Christ. But the lost shall not see life but have the wrath of God abiding on them.

and I use the word "abideth" here in context to God's wrath on them. As I used it in context to God's abiding faithfulness. Just as "aionios" can be used in different context.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

where does it say that?

again you are making things up.

scripture constantly rebukes you. You know not the power of God nor the scriptures

2 Corinthians 5:17
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Revelation 21:5
"5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful...7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Only in Christ are all things new.

Because I have sinned against him,
I will bear the LORD’s wrath,
until he pleads my case
and upholds my cause.
He will bring me out into the light;
I will see his righteousness.
(Micah 7:9)

No that is in context to those who have faith and are believers. the wrath of God abides on those who believe not.

John 3:36
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again UNTIL you have paid the last penny.

This is relating to an earthly example. But in a heavenly one none can pay for their sin. Only the blood of Christ can. So in hell there is no salvation, for that would be another gospel to say suffering under God;'s wrath for a time is salvation. Nowhere do we read such a thing or such a false gospel as that.

Take heed

Nonsense. Jesus spoke of abiding "until", which proves abiding can come to an end:

Mt.10:11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.

"Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures"

The context of all words is the most important. I was speaking in context of abideth, to God's character and wrath also to God "abideth faithful". In relation to God's character it never ends. and God cannot deny himself. This is similar when using the word "eternal or everlasting when relating to God's character He never stops being who he is.

so again you know not the scriptures nor the power of God, and take scripture and twist it to fit your biased error of universalism

So, again, universalism is proven Scriptural & glorifying to God Who is Love Omnipotent, not a torturer for eternity.

no it is not.Again it is proven false.

 

[ClementofA]

"19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5;19 KJV)

Again, this applies to those who are in Christ alone, not to those who die outside of Christ.

It reveals - all - shall be - in Christ.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Notice how it doesn't say every creature in hell or judgement of God. You are reading into it.

It speaks of every creature in heaven, earth & under the earth, which includes those wicked in their graves & Hades. Where do you suppose the devil & demons are? Clearly they are included.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

The nations of them which are savedThere

Revelation 21:24
"And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings ofthe earth do bring their glory and honour into it."

The word "saved" is not in the best MSS & translations:

New American Standard Bible
The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem." [quote of poster Oldmantook]

This is relating to an earthly example.

It is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage:

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again UNTIL you have paid the last penny.

But in a heavenly one none can pay for their sin. Only the blood of Christ can.

That's how they pay for their sins. By His blood.