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Featured What Does Aionios Mean? (part 2, It is wrong to define aionios based on aion)

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, Dec 12, 2017.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    What Dr. [I assume] Fudge says in the absence of manuscript evidence is no more compelling than what I, you or anyone else says. To be more compelling the quote should read "[T]he word has more to do with quality than quantity of time. ... aionios is "in fact literally 'of the age (to come) [because...] then quote some manuscript evidence. For example where Paul uses aidios and aionios to refer to God in Rom 1:20 and Rom 16:26. I am not aware of any scholar who does not agree that aidios means eternal, everlasting, unending etc.
    Romans 1:20
    (20) For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

    Romans 16:26
    (26) but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith—


     
  2. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    In reference to dike and diakaios, we agreed that these two words are similar to each other in a judicial context so there is some similarity in meaning. However for aion and its adjectival forms, it is claimed that the meaning of the latter is the polar opposite of the former! I find that to be quite a distinction which in my opinion is not justified. No doubt, the meaning of words do change but one would still have to prove that in this case, that applies.
    AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
     
  3. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you assume that an age is always limited in duration, then you there would be more distance between aion and aionios. But an age can be either limited or unlimited. There's nothing about the concept of an age that says it has to be limited. In fact, the word aion for age, even in the singular, is sometimes used in an idiomatic phrase meaning "forever". Here is an example:

    NIV 1 John 2:17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever (eis ton aiona, literally, "into the age").

    BGT 1 John 2:17 καὶ ὁ κόσμος παράγεται καὶ ἡ ἐπιθυμία αὐτοῦ, ὁ δὲ ποιῶν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.

    The word for age in the NT is quite frequently used in settings where it is referring to eternity, so even if we were to base the meaning of aionios on aion (which is the etymological fallacy) we could still easily get the meaning "eternal".

    Also, as pointed out in the OP, our own English word "eternal" is actually derived from a word which originally meant "an age":


    [​IMG]
     
  4. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  5. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  6. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Evil NEVER makes sense. I KNOW that I will be better off, those around me will be better off, and the world will be better off if I do not sin. Any yet sometimes I STILL sin. Even though God will forgive us, He also still disciplines us when we sin. That discipline is painful. As a Christian, I think you know this. Are you sinless?

    I don't know how fallen angels think, but if they keep sinning despite knowing it will bring more negative consequences, I don't see how they really are acting differently than I act every time I sin.
     
  7. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    No etymological fallacy here. The verse says what it says:
    and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain -- to the age. (YLT)
    And the world is passing away, and its desire; but the one doing the will of God abides to the age. (BLB)
    To force the meaning of eternal on to this verse is unnecessary and adds to its meaning beyond what is simply stated in the verse itself. The context of 1 Jn 2:17 helps to determine its meaning. The Apostle John warns believers not to love the world in vs.15-16. Verse 17 therefore simply states that he who does the will of God which can only take place when we are living - in this present age; i.e. church age. To not love the world and instead do the will of God is to live/abide in this present church age. Here John is restating another familiar verse which her wrote earlier in his gospel that as branches we are to abide in the vine. As believers we are to live/remain/abide in Him in this present church age; instead of loving the world. Hence no reference to eternity in this verse.

    In citing the Latin, you have made the same mistake as Augustine when he mistranslated aeternus in the Latin NT to mean eternal. Peter Brown writes in his book, Augustine of Hippo, p. 36,
    “Augustine's failure to learn Greek was a momentous casualty of the late Roman educational system; he will become the only Latin philosopher in antiquity to be virtually ignorant of Greek.”
    Augustine was the one who popularized the notion that hell is eternal; yet he was poor student of the Greek language. Hence our present understanding and belief that hell as eternal hails from the Augustine's understanding who apparently didn't understand much at all when it came to translating the Greek language. A tragedy of immense doctrinal consequence in my opinion.
     
  8. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 24 describes Jesus' Second Coming. Matthew 25 refers to the judgment of the nations which takes place as Jesus judges between the sheep and the goats prior to inauguration of the Millennial kingdom.
     
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    That one can find a Bible version which translates aion as age does not necessarily mean it is correct.
    Because one "scholar" says that Augustine did not know Greek also does not make it so. Paul appeared to believe that aidios and aionios were synonymous.
    Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul evidently considered “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous.
    .....In the twenty two verses listed here αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described by other words and phrases as eternal, everlasting etc.: 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 20:1, Romans 26:10.

    .....In the NT “aion/aionios” are used to refer to things which are not eternal but are never defined/described as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.

    [1]1 Timothy 1:17.
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [2]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is. See Robertson below. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [3]2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
    In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” If an “aionios” house is at some time destroyed then it is no different than the earthly house. The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.” If the tabernacle in heaven is destroyed, it is no different than the earthly tabernacle.
    [4]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has a permanent [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [5]1 Peter 1:23
    (23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God.
    1 Peter 1:25
    (25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
    In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “incorruptible.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
    [6]1 Timothy 6:16
    (16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
    [7]Galatians 6:8
    (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. not “corruption.” “Age(s) is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting.”
    [8]John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [9]John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with not “snatch them out of my hand” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s)” that is not the opposite of “not ‘snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [10]1 John 2:17
    (17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [11]1 Peter 5:10
    (10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “little while.” Thus by definition “aionios” here means “eternal.”
    [12]Romans 2:7
    (7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternal.”
    [13]Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “without end.” “aionios” cannot be paired with “without end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionios” by definition here means eternal.
    [14]Revelation 14:11
    (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionas] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
    [15]John 10:28
    (28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand.” If “aionion” is only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” by definition here means eternal.
    [16]John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” by definition here means eternal.
    [17]John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” by definition here means eternal.
    [18]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal.”
    [19]Romans 5:21
    (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with death. “A finite period” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios” by definition here means ‘eternal.”
    [20]Ephesians 3:21
    (21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
    In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations."


     
  10. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    That is certainly true but by the same token it does not automatically entail that the numerous other versions which differ in translation are indeed accurate. That is why I further backed up my claim by demonstrating how 1 Jn 2:17 can be translated as pertaining to the 'age' instead of as 'forever' given its immediate context. Instead of relying on one scholar's word that Augustine was deficient in the Greek you can certainly research it further for yourself to determine the veracity of that claim. The list you have provided is quite extensive. I don't have the time now to address that list but time permitting will hopefully address some or even all of the scriptures you've submitted.
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    1 Jn 2:17 is one of the verses I address in my list, above.
    1 John 2:17
    (17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
    In this verse “aion” is contrasted with “pass away.” “Aion” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    If aion means a finite period then all this verse says is "The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives somewhat longer." Is that what John is telling us?
    .....Here is how Cyprian understood this verse. Cyprian pairs "for ever" with "immortality. Therefore by definition "aion" means "eternity."

    1 Jn 2:17 Cyprian. [A.D. 200-258.] Treatise VII. — On the Mortality."
    24. For all that is in the world is the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, which is not of the Father, but of the lust of the world. And the world shall pass away, and the lust thereof; but he who doeth the will of God abideth for ever, even as God abideth for ever.” (
    1Jo_2:17) Rather, beloved brethren, with a sound mind, with a firm faith, with a robust virtue, let us be prepared for the whole will of God: laying aside the fear of death, let us think on the immortality which follows.
     
  12. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    This verse is not referencing a future state of eternity "which follows" as Cyprian interprets. Rather the verb tenses employed by the Apostle John indicate that he is referring to the believer's present state of life and existence - not some future state. The word poiōn is a present tense participle which should read "whoever is doing the will of God"...indicative of ongoing action. Thus the believer who is obedient and doing God's will is assured of age-during life referring to this present church age; not eternal life "which follows" according to Cyprian. In other words we presently possess life with Christ as long as we continue to do His will and abide in Him during this present age. This interpretation is reinforced by the verb menei which is in the present tense. Instead of "lives" it should read "living." Therefore whoever is doing the will of God is living according to the age which refers to this present church age. That is why I wrote earlier that this verse has nothing to do with a future eternal existence. Rather the verb tenses indicate that believers have age-during life at the present time/age as long as we continue to abide in Him much like branches which continue to abide in the vine.​
     
  13. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I appreciate your input but I quoted the NIV. My first Greek professor was Dr Roger Omanson who was on the NIV translation committee, I trust his interpretation.
    NET 1 John 2:17 And the world is passing away with all its desires, but the person who does the will of God remains forever.
    Dr Dan Wallace, who has taught graduate level Greek for 30+ years, is senior editor of the NET. I trust his interpretation.
     
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Oldmantook,

    As we seem to have the same or similar views re aion as an age & a future age associated with the millennial eon kingdom of Christ, you might want to save yourself some time & review my post which has already addressed a very similar list by Der Alter. I'll copy it below.

    If you find we have the same view re any of the verses he listed, then it would be redundant for you to respond re that particular verse. OTOH, don't let that dissuade you, as you may express our view much more clearly than i have.

    I'd be especially interested in your comments on those verses where we have a different perspective, such as 1 Jn.2:17. I had never considered the verse that way before. Thanks for sharing that.

    Following is my aforementioned reply to Der Alter re a very similar list of NT references that he has posted in this thread:

    1 Timothy 1:17 Interlinear: and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen.

    Young's Literal Translation
    and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen. (1 Tim.1:17)

    The information that God is "King of the ages" is different info (not redundant info) from God being "immortal" & "invisible" & the "only wise God".

    Nothing in this verse says "the ages" referred to are endless. Nothing there says the phrase "to the ages of the ages" means endless. If you are doing something up "to" a certain time (e.g. ages of the ages"), that leaves it an open question whether or not you keep doing it afterwards.

    Additionally, if the ages have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26), then "King of the ages" cannot mean King for endless time.

    1."God exists today"
    2. Today "is finite"
    3. Therefore God exists during finite days [years, centuries, eras, epochs, milleniums, ancient times/olam, eons & ages]
    4. God is also immortal.
    5. Therefore God exists both during finite days & immortally.
    6. Both are true at the same time.

    Therefore when Scripture speaks of One Who is both immortal and King of the ages in the same sentence (1 Tim.1:17), ages can refer to finite periods of time. Whether of finite individual ages or finite corporate ages [of at least two ages].

    Thus your argument is refuted.



    Actually the opposite of a "moment" can be an "age" of a "finite period":

    Thesaurus results for MOMENT
    Gegenteil-von.com
    104 Moment Antonyms - Opposite of Moment - Page 3
    Gegenteil-von.com

    Also a "moment" is usually a 'short' period of time.
    An "eon" or "age" can be a 'long' period of time.
    And 'long' is the opposite of 'short':

    http://www.myenglishpages.com/site_php_files/vocabulary-lesson-opposites2.php




    First, in this verse it says "aionios in the heavens". Scripture says the heavens which now are will pass away. So if these heavens are temporary, so also can aionios be temporary in 2 Cor.5:1.

    Secondly, that the house is not dissolved for an aionion (eonian) period of time does not necessarily mean that eonian means eternal in this verse. For example if something is not dissolved for the eon of the millennial age eon, that doesn't mean the millennial eon is eternal.



    Hebrews 7:24 Interlinear: and he, because of his remaining -- to the age, hath the priesthood not transient,

    "hath an unchangeable priesthood] Rather, “hath his priesthood unchangeable” (sempiternum, Vulg.) or perhaps “untransmissible;” “a priesthood that doth not pass to another,” as it is rendered in the margin of our Revised Version." Hebrews 7:24 Commentaries: but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.

    "This may be explained either as inviolable, or which does not pass over to another. Comp. Exodus 32:8; Sir. 23:18. Usage is in favor of the former meaning, but the other falls in better with the course of thought." Vincent @ Hebrews 7:24 Commentaries: but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.

    Will the office of priesthood be even needed or last forever? If not, then it will cease & aion in this verse cannot refer to an endless duration.

    After God becomes "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) priesthood may no longer serve any purpose. Likewise with kings (cf. 1 Tim.1:17 above).




    "The most ancient manuscripts omit the words, "for ever" ", i.e. they omit the Greek word aion:

    1 Peter 1:23 Commentaries: for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

    As do the NASB, NIV, ESV, ASV, DBY, ERV, & most at:

    1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

    and also this:

    Greek-English Interlinear:
    Index of /interlinear/1_peter



    Actually God can be (and is) both immortal & existing "for a finite period at the same time". For God lives both "today" and is "immortal". Today is finite, so God will be for a finite period, namely "today". Additionally, God is "immortal". So when the finite time period "today" ends, He does not end, but lives on. That God will be living "today" and also at the same time be "immortal" are two distinct and different facts, not redundant facts telling us the same thing. Likewise the fact God is both aionian (eonian) & immortal in 1 Tim.6:16 do not require they be redundant or that eonian mean eternal or endless time.

    Aionios is related to time in the Scriptures, not eternity:

    in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian (Titus 1:2)
    Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian,(2 Tim.1:9)
    Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, 26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience (Rom.16:25-26)
    but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory (1 Cor.2:7)

    If time ends, the "times eonian" (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9; Rom.16:25) end & eonian ends with the beginning of eternity, then in Scripture eonian can never mean endless or everlasting.

    The eons had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7, etc) & may also have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26).

    Young's Literal Translation (1 Tim.6:16)
    who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom is honour and might age-during! Amen.
    Concordant Literal Translation
    Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!
    Rotherham's Emphasized Version
    Who alone hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable,—Whom no man hath seen—nor can see: unto whom, be honour and might age-abiding. Amen.
    Emphatic Diaglott NT
    the only one having deathlessness, light dwelling in inaccessible, whom saw no one of men, nor to see is able; to whom honor and might age-lasting; so be it.
    Emphatic Diaglott (margin)
    ...to whom be Honor and Might aionian. Amen

    The emphatic diaglott: containing the original Greek text of what is commonly styled the New Testament, (according to the recension of Dr. J. J. Griesbach,) with an interlineary word for word English translation; a new emphatic version, based on the interlineary translation, on the renderings of eminent critics, and on the various readings of the Vatican manuscript, (no. 1209, in the Vatican library; together with illustrative and explanatory foot notes, and a copious selection of references; to the whole of which is added, a valuable alphabetical appendix. By Benjamin Wilson ...
    http://studybible.info/CLV/1 Timothy 6
    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1ti6.pdf

    Re Greek scholar Deissman:

    "Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

    Chapter Nine

    The Greek text is on p.275ff of the following url. The English translation follows.

    "I adjure thee by the great God, the eternal and more than eternal and almighty, who is exalted above the exalted Gods." (p.277)

    "The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D.; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century,1 that is— to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible — about the time of Origen." (p.279)

    https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf



    The "corruption" is not stated to be endless, so it does not necessarily follow that the life or eonian or life eonian must be endless.

    Be not decived, God is not to be sneered at, for whatsoever a man may be sowing, this shall he be reaping also, 8 for he who is sowing for his own flesh, from the flesh shall be reaping corruption, yet he who is sowing for the spirit, from the spirit shall be reaping life eonian. (Galatians 6:8; Concordant Literal Version).

    Origen, the Early Church Father, speaks a number of times of after aionios (eternal) life, thereby making it finite in relation to a coming age or ages, such as, e.g.the millennial kingdom eon age. Christ also speaks of aionios life in the age to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30). And Daniel 12:2 refers to olam life followed in verse 3 by "olam and beyond", thereby making olam life in this context finite.



    John 10:28 is a repeat of the same verse addressed below at verse #15 on your list of 19 verses (actually only 18, & just 17 that have aion/ios in them).

    In John 6:58 death is not contrasted with aionios, but with live. Aionios is not the opposite of death.

    And the world is passing by, and its desire, yet he who is doing the will of God is remaining for the eon. (1 Jn.2:17, CLV) and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain -- to the age. (YLT)

    For the eon or age here can certainly refer to a finite eon such as the millennial age eon kingdom of Christ, or also the eon of the second death (lake of fire) until death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes "all in all" (v.28), even all who were ever in Adam (v.22).



    Actually aion (and therefore aionios) can be the opposite of a "little while". See previous comments above re 2 Cor.4:17-18 & "moment".


    Those who "in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality" will be given "aionios life". Aionios (eonian) life is the special reward for those who believe. They get life in the eonian period called the 1000 years in Revelation, i.e. the millennial age eon. Unbelievers will not get eonian life in the age to come. As we see in 1 Tim.4:9-11, God is the Saviour of all men, but specially of them that believe. For believers get the special gift of grace of eonian life. Others will lose out on that & be punished. But even they shall be eventually saved (Rom.5:18-19; Rev.5:13; 1 Cor.15:22-28; etc).


    Luke 1:33 Interlinear: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.'
    Luke επειδηπερ INASMUCH AS πολλοι MANY επεχειρησαν HAVE TAKEN IN HAND αναταξασθαι TO ARRANGE IN ORDER διηγησιν NARRATION περι ABOUT των THES πραγματων DEEDS πεπληροφορημενων THAT HAVE BEEN BROUGHT TO FULLNESS εν AMONG ημιν US
    Luke επειδηπερ FORASMUCH AS πολλοι MANY επεχειρησαν TOOK IN HAND αναταξασθαι TO DRAW UP διηγησιν A NARRATION περι CONCERNING των THE πεπληροφορημενων WHICH HAVE BEEN FULLY BELIEVED εν AMONG ημιν US πραγματων MATTERS,

    Darby Bible Translation
    and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for the ages, and of his kingdom there shall not be an end.

    This is what it actually literally says:

    Luk 1:33 and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation. (CLV)

    It is about reigning over the house of Jacob and the time limit is "for the eons."

    Here is the full verse with context:

    Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and Son of the Most High shall He be called. And the Lord God shall be giving Him the throne of David,
    Luk 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. (here is the second half of the verse you allude to And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation."

    Christ eventually hands over the kingdom to His God and Father (1 Cor.15:24-28) and quits reigning (1 Cor.15:25). So His reign "for the eons" over the house of Jacob (Lk.1:33) is not forever, but finite. Therefore the phrase "for the eons" in Lk.1:33 is of finite duration & the translation "forever" is wrong, misleading & deceptive.




    If someone said to me "I have had no rest day or night", this could mean for a period of 24 hours. Not forever and ever.

    If someone said to me "I've had no rest day or night for ages", this could mean for a finite period of days, weeks or months. It doesn't mean forever. BTW the phrase 'forever and ever' in Rev.14:11 literally translates as "to ages of ages". So having no rest day or night for "ages" can mean for a short or long time of finite duration, not forever.

    Here is the literal translation from a Greek-English Interlinear:

    Revelation 14:11 Interlinear: and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

    Many other similar examples could be given with a literal translation.

    Scripture also speaks of night being "no more". So can "day and night" be forever?

    For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

    What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).



    And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand. (Jn.10:28, CLV)

    Evidently this may refer to a future eon & not the disciples time in the first century A.D., since they did perish or die. The coming eon will include the millennium or 1000 years of Revelation 20. Even during that millennial age eon some will die (Isa.65:20), but Jesus says here in Jn.10:28 that believers will not perish "for the eon".

    Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (Isa.65:20)

    Unbelievers will not enter the millennial age kingdom of Christ, but perish, according to verses in John above. It is noteworthy that it doesn't say they perish "without end" or "endlessly". They are raised at the great White Throne judgement of Revelation 20 & ultimately saved. For Jesus is the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29) & their Saviour (Jn.4:42) Who will draw them to Himself (Jn.12:32).


    For neither is the Father judging anyone, but has given all judging to the Son, 23 that all may be honoring the Son, according as they are honoring the Father. He who is not honoring the Son is not honoring the Father Who sends Him." 24 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life. (Jn.5:22-25, CLV)

    Here we see that all judging has been given to the Son for a positive end, that all may be honoring the Son.

    Believers have life eonian, as long as they don't lose their salvation. Then they would lose this gift of grace of eonian life and come into condemnation again.


    Actually in that verse death is not contrasted with aionios. Death is contrasted with its opposite life. Aionios life is the gift of God (Rom.6:23) to those who believe. Eventually all will recieve life (verses 18-19 of the same book of Romans & chapter 5).




    None of these sources support your aionios theory. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent, whom you quote, opposes it, saying:

    "The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

    "...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

    ".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

    "...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

    "...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

    https://books.google.ca/books?id=oDVxDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT1952&lpg=PT1952&dq=.There+is+a+word+for+everlasting+if+that+idea+is+demanded&source=bl&ots=kbcwXyQq-_&sig=iFJYNZt2o2GZkw3pr9EGNOB8Oa8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikjoe3jqvVAhXow1QKHZXWA4wQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=.There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded&f=false

    https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf
     
  15. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Oldmantook,

    I honestly feel somewhat sad, because I feel like you are losing so much in 1 John 2:17 by providing an interpretation which is not problematic for universalism. Here is the verse, in English and in Greek:

    ESV 1 John 2:17 And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever (eis ton aiona).

    BGT 1 John 2:17 καὶ ὁ κόσμος παράγεται καὶ ἡ ἐπιθυμία αὐτοῦ, ὁ δὲ ποιῶν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.


    Here is part of your comment on this verse:
    The main difference between the translations which you believe are correct and the ones which I believe are correct is whether the Greek phrase eis ton aiona should be translated "forever" or "to the age".

    In favor of your translation is the fact that the most basic, one word meaning of eis is "into", ton is "the", and aiona is "age". Thus, a wooden word for word translation produces "into the age".

    But this is not how languages work. It is VERY often the case that you cannot woodenly translate word for word and end up with a translation which correctly conveys the meaning in another language. Having been blessed with the opportunity to learn and speak Indonesian in Indonesia and even get a Master's degree in Indonesian language from a University in Indonesia where all the teaching was in Indonesian, I'm very, very confident that a woodenly word for word translation between two different languages very frequently does not work at all. Some people think that a certain translation is "word for word from the Greek". If you look at a Greek-English interlinear for the New Testament, you will quickly realize that exact word for word translations are not intelligible. Languages don't just have different words. They have different word orders, different ways of using words, and many different idioms.

    Here's one example between Indonesian and English:

    Tidak apa-apa
    tidak
    means "no"
    apa means "what"
    Word for word translation: "No what-what"
    Actual meaning: "Don't worry about it" or "It's not a big deal"

    All languages have MANY idiomatic phrases where the meaning of the phrase is different from the meaning of each word in it put together.

    In the case of eis ton aiona we are dealing with a Greek idiom. The idiom takes on a meaning of its own which goes beyond the meaning of translating each word independently. In this case the idiom means "forever".

    The context itself makes this clear. The first part of the verse tells us that "the world is passing away". It will not "remain". But we who are living for God will "remain". How long will we remain? How long do you think we will "remain"?

    Imagine I had a friend whose marriage was in trouble and I saw that at a crucial point he was neglecting his wife in order to watch the playoffs with his friends at a bar. Which of these two sentences would make more sense:

    "The playoffs will be over in a few weeks, but your marriage is meant to last for a few years."
    or
    "The playoffs will be over in a few weeks, but your marriage is meant to last for the rest of your life on earth."

    The first sentence is technically true in a very strained sense, because a marriage which lasts for a lifetime also lasts for a few years. But that first sentence is strained to the point of feeling just wrong because it understates by a huge amount how long the marriage is supposed to last.

    Now look at 1 John 2:17 again:
    ESV 1 John 2:17 And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides eis ton aiona.

    Of course if we "abide" (or more literally, "remain") forever, we will also remain for an age. But to say that we remain into the age hugely understates how long we are going to live. It also destroys the contrast with the world. If we ONLY live into a limited age, then just like the world, we will eventually pass away! Your preferred translation destroys the logic and undermines the powerful encouragement of that John is giving us in that verse.

    You went on to write:
    We agree that the context helps to determine the meaning. I do appreciate that we both are seeking to use the context of the Bible to understand the Bible. But in this case we come to very different conclusions.

    You contiune:
    We completely agree that John is warning us not to love the world and instead to do God's will. This truth that we agree on is in many ways more important, and certainly more immediately and urgently applicable to our lives, than the part we disagree about. When in a debate like this one, it's helpful to me to stop occasionally and remember that what we have in common is far deeper and more important than our debate! We agree we should live for God's will and not for the desires of this world!

    Back to our brotherly debate, you continued:

    We continue to agree! John is encouraging us to live for God NOW in this present age, when it is difficult. NOW is when we need help and encouragement to live for God and not give into the pressures and temptations from the world.

    This last part is where I feel you have totally missed the logic of John's encouragement. John is encouraging us to be faithful NOW because being faithful now results in living forever. It results in not passing away. This logic is common in the New Testament. We are encouraged to make sacrifices and live for God NOW because of God's promises related to eternity:

    ESV Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

    ESV Matthew 5:11 "Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

    ESV 1 Corinthians 15:19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.


    I wrote a blog post on this way of thinking which is common in the Bible, where we are encouraged to live NOW based on eternity (I think you'll like it, even if we continue to disagree about the final fate of the unrighteous):

    How Believing in Eternal Life can Make You Wise

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your reply. Each person has his/own interpretation; hence our cordial disagreement. I offered my interpretation by accounting for the verb tenses which addresses the supposed conflict in this verse.
     
  17. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Being the OP, I assume you've read my reply to Der Alter regarding the verb tenses employed in 1 Jn 2:17? If so you would know that I agree with you that John is encouraging us to be faithful now by the use of the present tense verb. As I explained earlier, the present tense verbs indicate that John is referring to living obedient lives now in this present church age now; not abiding/living in a future state of eternity. If John were referring to "eternal" life as you claim he could have employed the word meneite which is in the future tense which would then read "you will live forever." The fact that he uses the present tense menei indicates that he does not have "eternity" in mind as you propose. One must be careful to not read one's own interpretation into the text beyond what the text itself states.
     
  18. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your advice and input. I'll review your comments when I have more time to devote to this. :)
     
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    No Origen does not speak "a number of times of after aionios (eternal) life" You have only quoted one time where he used the phrase "after aionion life" you have quoted it out of context here and every other time you post it. Here is the quote in context. It says absolutely nothing about "after eternal life" for people.
    (17) He says that eternal life is the [goal], as it were, or the water that springs up, as indeed Solomon says, when he talks about the bridegroom in the Song of Songs, Behold he has come leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
    (18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it [the fountain] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.
    (20) when the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him.
    What does Origen say about "after eternal life?" After the fountain leaps into eternal life PERHAPS it leaps into God who is beyond eternal life. This can in no way be twisted to mean there is something after eternal life for people.
    And let us not forget that several chapters later in the same writing Origen says this about eternal life.

    (6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it. P. 81
    Commentary on the Gospel According to John
    Origen says that "eternal life", "never perishes", "remains,""is not taken away,""is not consumed," and "[does not] perish. Unlike the misquote above this is not "perhaps" it is definitive and emphatic.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
  20. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, I read it.

    Here I'll quote 1 John 2:17 again, including several English translations and also the Greek:

    CSB 1 John 2:17 And the world with its lust is passing away, but the one who does God's will remains forever.

    ESV 1 John 2:17 And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

    NIV 1 John 2:17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

    BGT 1 John 2:17 καὶ ὁ κόσμος παράγεται καὶ ἡ ἐπιθυμία αὐτοῦ, ὁ δὲ ποιῶν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.

    We agree that the phrase "whoever does the will of God" refers to people doing the will of God now, during our lives in the present age.

    This is where we disagree. You continue your comment and give some support to your view:

    Although John could have used the future tense of "remain", there was no need for him to do so. In Greek, the main emphasis of the tense is on the type of action. The present tense typically refers to a continuous action. In the indicative mood, it can also refer to the time of the action. In this case, being in the indicative mood, it appears likely to refer to both. The person is currently "continuing to remain". But the very meaning of the word "remain" points to continuing for some period of time.

    Thus, even in English, it is not necessary to use the future tense ("will remain") when speaking of remaining into the future. In fact, none of the three translations I included above use the future tense although all three speak of remaining forever. How much more is this true in Greek, where the nature of the action is emphasized more than the timing of the action.

    Most importantly, even based on the universalist interpretation of eis ton aiona, this phrase is modifying the verb "remain" by telling us how long the person remains for. The meaning for eis ton aiona you have argued for is basically "lasting for an age". If I'm wrong, please tell me what you think "eis ton aiona" means. Even with your meaning, "remains" is looking into the future. The question is, how far into the future? Is John telling us that the world will pass away while we will endure for a limited age, or is he telling us that the world will pass away while we will endure forever?

    In considering the meaning of eis ton aiona, here are all the passages in the New Testament that use that exact phrase. The meaning "forever" (or when preceded by "not", "never", meaning "not forever") can fit every single passage. Alternate meaning like "lasting for an age" could fit some of the contexts, but is a terrible fit for many of these verses:


    ESV Matt. 21:19 And seeing a fig tree by the wayside, he went to it and found nothing on it but only leaves. And he said to it, "May no fruit ever come from you again!" And the fig tree withered at once.

    BGT Matt. 21:19 καὶ ἰδὼν συκῆν μίαν ἐπὶ τῆς ὁδοῦ ἦλθεν ἐπ᾽ αὐτὴν καὶ οὐδὲν εὗρεν ἐν αὐτῇ εἰ μὴ φύλλα μόνον, καὶ λέγει αὐτῇ· μηκέτι ἐκ σοῦ καρπὸς γένηται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. καὶ ἐξηράνθη παραχρῆμα ἡ συκῆ.

    ESV Mk. 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"--

    BGT Mk. 3:29 ὃς δ᾽ ἂν βλασφημήσῃ εἰς τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον, οὐκ ἔχει ἄφεσιν εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ἀλλ᾽ ἔνοχός ἐστιν αἰωνίου ἁμαρτήματος.

    ESV Mk. 11:14 And he said to it, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard it.

    BGT Mk. 11:14 καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτῇ· μηκέτι εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα ἐκ σοῦ μηδεὶς καρπὸν φάγοι. καὶ ἤκουον οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ.

    ESV Lk. 1:55 as he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his offspring forever."

    BGT Lk. 1:55 καθὼς ἐλάλησεν πρὸς τοὺς πατέρας ἡμῶν, τῷ Ἀβραὰμ καὶ τῷ σπέρματι αὐτοῦ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.

    ESV Jn. 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

    BGT Jn. 4:14 ὃς δ᾽ ἂν πίῃ ἐκ τοῦ ὕδατος οὗ ἐγὼ δώσω αὐτῷ, οὐ μὴ διψήσει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ἀλλὰ τὸ ὕδωρ ὃ δώσω αὐτῷ γενήσεται ἐν αὐτῷ πηγὴ ὕδατος ἁλλομένου εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

    ESV Jn. 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."

    BGT Jn. 6:51 ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ἄρτος ὁ ζῶν ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς· ἐάν τις φάγῃ ἐκ τούτου τοῦ ἄρτου ζήσει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, καὶ ὁ ἄρτος δὲ ὃν ἐγὼ δώσω ἡ σάρξ μού ἐστιν ὑπὲρ τῆς τοῦ κόσμου ζωῆς.

    ESV Jn. 6:58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."

    BGT Jn. 6:58 οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἄρτος ὁ ἐξ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, οὐ καθὼς ἔφαγον οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἀπέθανον· ὁ τρώγων τοῦτον τὸν ἄρτον ζήσει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.

    ESV Jn. 8:35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever.

    BGT Jn. 8:35 ὁ δὲ δοῦλος οὐ μένει ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ὁ υἱὸς μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.

    ESV Jn. 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

    BGT Jn. 8:51 ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἐάν τις τὸν ἐμὸν λόγον τηρήσῃ, θάνατον οὐ μὴ θεωρήσῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.

    ESV Jn. 8:52 The Jews said to him, "Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, 'If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.'

    BGT Jn. 8:52 Εἶπον [οὖν] αὐτῷ οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι· νῦν ἐγνώκαμεν ὅτι δαιμόνιον ἔχεις. Ἀβραὰμ ἀπέθανεν καὶ οἱ προφῆται, καὶ σὺ λέγεις· ἐάν τις τὸν λόγον μου τηρήσῃ, οὐ μὴ γεύσηται θανάτου εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.

    ESV Jn. 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

    BGT Jn. 10:28 κἀγὼ δίδωμι αὐτοῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει τις αὐτὰ ἐκ τῆς χειρός μου.

    ESV Jn. 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

    BGT Jn. 11:26 καὶ πᾶς ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. πιστεύεις τοῦτο;

    ESV Jn. 12:34 So the crowd answered him, "We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?"

    BGT Jn. 12:34 Ἀπεκρίθη οὖν αὐτῷ ὁ ὄχλος· ἡμεῖς ἠκούσαμεν ἐκ τοῦ νόμου ὅτι ὁ χριστὸς μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, καὶ πῶς λέγεις σὺ ὅτι δεῖ ὑψωθῆναι τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου; τίς ἐστιν οὗτος ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου;

    ESV Jn. 13:8 Peter said to him, "You shall never wash my feet." Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no share with me."

    BGT Jn. 13:8 λέγει αὐτῷ Πέτρος· οὐ μὴ νίψῃς μου τοὺς πόδας εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς αὐτῷ· ἐὰν μὴ νίψω σε, οὐκ ἔχεις μέρος μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ.

    ESV Jn. 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,

    BGT Jn. 14:16 κἀγὼ ἐρωτήσω τὸν πατέρα καὶ ἄλλον παράκλητον δώσει ὑμῖν, ἵνα μεθ᾽ ὑμῶν εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα ᾖ,

    ESV 1 Cor. 8:13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

    BGT 1 Cor. 8:13 διόπερ εἰ βρῶμα σκανδαλίζει τὸν ἀδελφόν μου, οὐ μὴ φάγω κρέα εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ἵνα μὴ τὸν ἀδελφόν μου σκανδαλίσω.

    ESV 2 Cor. 9:9 As it is written, "He has distributed freely, he has given to the poor; his righteousness endures forever."

    BGT 2 Cor. 9:9 καθὼς γέγραπται· ἐσκόρπισεν, ἔδωκεν τοῖς πένησιν, ἡ δικαιοσύνη αὐτοῦ μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.

    ESV Heb. 1:8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

    BGT Heb. 1:8 πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν· ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεὸς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος, καὶ ἡ ῥάβδος τῆς εὐθύτητος ῥάβδος τῆς βασιλείας σου.

    ESV Heb. 5:6 as he says also in another place, "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek."

    BGT Heb. 5:6 καθὼς καὶ ἐν ἑτέρῳ λέγει· σὺ ἱερεὺς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα κατὰ τὴν τάξιν Μελχισέδεκ,

    ESV Heb. 6:20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

    BGT Heb. 6:20 ὅπου πρόδρομος ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν εἰσῆλθεν Ἰησοῦς, κατὰ τὴν τάξιν Μελχισέδεκ ἀρχιερεὺς γενόμενος εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.

    ESV Heb. 7:17 For it is witnessed of him, "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek."

    BGT Heb. 7:17 μαρτυρεῖται γὰρ ὅτι σὺ ἱερεὺς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα κατὰ τὴν τάξιν Μελχισέδεκ.

    ESV Heb. 7:21 but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, 'You are a priest forever.'"

    BGT Heb. 7:21 ὁ δὲ μετὰ ὁρκωμοσίας διὰ τοῦ λέγοντος πρὸς αὐτόν· ὤμοσεν κύριος καὶ οὐ μεταμεληθήσεται· σὺ ἱερεὺς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.

    ESV Heb. 7:24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.

    BGT Heb. 7:24 ὁ δὲ διὰ τὸ μένειν αὐτὸν εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα ἀπαράβατον ἔχει τὴν ἱερωσύνην·

    ESV Heb. 7:28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

    BGT Heb. 7:28 ὁ νόμος γὰρ ἀνθρώπους καθίστησιν ἀρχιερεῖς ἔχοντας ἀσθένειαν, ὁ λόγος δὲ τῆς ὁρκωμοσίας τῆς μετὰ τὸν νόμον υἱὸν εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τετελειωμένον.

    ESV 1 Pet. 1:25 but the word of the Lord remains forever." And this word is the good news that was preached to you.

    BGT 1 Pet. 1:25 τὸ δὲ ῥῆμα κυρίου μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. τοῦτο δέ ἐστιν τὸ ῥῆμα τὸ εὐαγγελισθὲν εἰς ὑμᾶς.

    ESV 1 Jn. 2:17 And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

    BGT 1 Jn. 2:17 καὶ ὁ κόσμος παράγεται καὶ ἡ ἐπιθυμία αὐτοῦ, ὁ δὲ ποιῶν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.

    ESV 2 Jn. 1:2 because of the truth that abides in us and will be with us forever:

    BGT 2 Jn. 1:2 διὰ τὴν ἀλήθειαν τὴν μένουσαν ἐν ἡμῖν καὶ μεθ᾽ ἡμῶν ἔσται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.

    I hope that you will consider just how difficult it is to maintain any definition other than "forever", or when preceded by "not", "never", for the many examples above.
     
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