What Does Aionios Mean? (part 2, It is wrong to define aionios based on aion)

[ClementofA]

No Origen does not speak "a number of times of after aionios (eternal) life" You have only quoted one time where he used the phrase "after aionion life" you have quoted it out of context here and every other time you post it. Here is the quote in context. It says absolutely nothing about "after eternal life" for people.

(17) He says that eternal life is the [goal], as it were, or the water that springs up, as indeed Solomon says, when he talks about the bridegroom in the Song of Songs, Behold he has come leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it [the fountain] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.
(20) when the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him. ​

What does Origen say about "after eternal life?" After the fountain leaps into eternal life PERHAPS it leaps into God who is beyond eternal life. This can in no way be twisted to mean there is something after eternal life for people.
And let us not forget that several chapters later in the same writing Origen says this about eternal life.

(6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it. P. 81
Commentary on the Gospel According to John​

Origen says that "eternal life", "never perishes", "remains,""is not taken away,""is not consumed," and "[does not] perish. Unlike the misquote above this is not "perhaps" it is definitive and emphatic.

This topic has already been addressed here in this very same thread:

What Does Aionios Mean? (part 2, It is wrong to define aionios based on aion)

 

[Der Alte]

...

 

[ClementofA]

Is John telling us that the world will pass away while we will endure for a limited age, or is he telling us that the world will pass away while we will endure forever?

John elsewhere says when Christ appears we will be like Him (1 Jn.3:2), therefore immortal, so endless life is not an issue. Also those who received John's letter may have already been well aware of that from other NT writings & oral teachings.

1 John 2:17 Interlinear: and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain -- to the age.

From a UR perspective, John may be speaking of the "special" (1 Tim.4:10) salvation for those who are "doing the will of God" (1 Jn.2:17) in this life, since he has already made universal salvation clear in his gospel & elsewhere (2:2; 4:14) in this same epistle:

1 Jn.2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours alone, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Jn.4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

God is love (1 Jn.4:8,16)

Here is another example of the "special" salvation of those who believe in this world:

To this end we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and ESPECIALLY of those who believe. (1 Tim.4:10)

For the eon or age (1 Jn.2:17b) here can certainly refer to a finite eon such as the millennial age eon kingdom of Christ, & or the eon of the second death (lake of fire) until death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes "all in all" (v.28), even all who were ever in Adam (v.22).

And the world is passing by, and its desire, yet he who is doing the will of God is remaining for the eon. (1 Jn.2:17, CLV)

And the world passes away, and the lust of it; the but one doing the will of the God, abides for the age. (Diaglott)

and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain -- to the age. (YLT)

"into the age" (Greek-English Interlinear):
Study Bible - Online Greek Hebrew KJV Parallel Interlinear Tools

"into the eon" (Apostolic Bible Polygot, Greek-English Interlinear):
Online Parallel Study Bibles

Perhaps an understanding of the meaning of the "world is passing away" & "also its lusts" will help to understand the more literal renderings of "for the age", "to the age" or "into the age" in the second half of the verse (1 John 2:17).

When people look out of their windows, does it look to them like the "world is passing away"? When they read their 'bad news' newspapers, does it seem like "its lusts" are also "passing away"?

Can all evil lusts pass away & people still be burning in hell? Does the passing away of lusts require that such people are either endlessly annihilated or saved?

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever. (1 Jn.2:16-17)

and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the form of this world is passing away. (1 Cor.7:31)

What I am saying, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; (1 Cor.7:29)

"The word “for” does not introduce a reason for the immediately preceding injunction, but carries us back to the previous statement in 1Corinthians 7:29 : “the time is short,”..." 1 Corinthians 7:31 Commentaries: and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the form of this world is passing away.

 

[Der Alte]

This topic has already been addressed here in this very same thread:
What Does Aionios Mean? (part 2, It is wrong to define aionios based on aion)

impotent smoke and mirrors. You made a false claim about Origen. And your three word "proof quote" is out-of-context and says nothing about anything after eternal life for people.

 

[Doug Melven]

John elsewhere says when Christ appears we will be like Him (1 Jn.3:2), therefore immortal, so endless life is not an issue. Also those who received John's letter may have already been well aware of that from other NT writings & oral teachings.

1 John 2:17 Interlinear: and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain -- to the age.

From a UR perspective, John may be speaking of the "special" (1 Tim.4:10) salvation for those who are "doing the will of God" (1 Jn.2:17) in this life, since he has already made universal salvation clear in his gospel & elsewhere (2:2; 4:14) in this same epistle:

1 Jn.2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours alone, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Jn.4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

God is love (1 Jn.4:8,16)

Here is another example of the "special" salvation of those who believe in this world:

To this end we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and ESPECIALLY of those who believe. (1 Tim.4:10)

For the eon or age (1 Jn.2:17b) here can certainly refer to a finite eon such as the millennial age eon kingdom of Christ, & or the eon of the second death (lake of fire) until death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes "all in all" (v.28), even all who were ever in Adam (v.22).

And the world is passing by, and its desire, yet he who is doing the will of God is remaining for the eon. (1 Jn.2:17, CLV)

And the world passes away, and the lust of it; the but one doing the will of the God, abides for the age. (Diaglott)

and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain -- to the age. (YLT)

"into the age" (Greek-English Interlinear):
Study Bible - Online Greek Hebrew KJV Parallel Interlinear Tools

"into the eon" (Apostolic Bible Polygot, Greek-English Interlinear):
Online Parallel Study Bibles

Perhaps an understanding of the meaning of the "world is passing away" & "also its lusts" will help to understand the more literal renderings of "for the age", "to the age" or "into the age" in the second half of the verse (1 John 2:17).

When people look out of their windows, does it look to them like the "world is passing away"? When they read their 'bad news' newspapers, does it seem like "its lusts" are also "passing away"?

Can all evil lusts pass away & people still be burning in hell? Does the passing away of lusts require that such people are either endlessly annihilated or saved?

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever. (1 Jn.2:16-17)

and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the form of this world is passing away. (1 Cor.7:31)

What I am saying, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; (1 Cor.7:29)

"The word “for” does not introduce a reason for the immediately preceding injunction, but carries us back to the previous statement in 1Corinthians 7:29 : “the time is short,”..." 1 Corinthians 7:31 Commentaries: and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the form of this world is passing away.

2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Jesus paid for the sins of everybody, but if you don't accept His payment, He will not force you to be saved.
As seen in 3:23 we only have 2 commandments, believe on Jesus and love one another, that's it.

4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Confessing Him goes hand in hand with believing.
Romans 10:9-10
10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God wants everybody to be saved, but God does not always get His way.
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

There is no special salvation, ONLY those who believe will be saved.
4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

This last verse clearly says if you don't believe you won't receive life, but the wrath of God abides on you.
Abide =
Strong's No.:G3306
Greek:μένω
Transliteration :menō
Pronunciation:men'-o
Definition:
A primary verb; to stay (in a given place state relation or expectancy): - abide continue dwell endure be present remain stand tarry (for) X thine own.

 

[ClementofA]

impotent smoke and mirrors. You made a false claim about Origen. And your three word "proof quote" is out-of-context and says nothing about anything after eternal life for people.

Well, if it isn't evident already that i obviously disagree, i do.

No false claim has been made.

Nothing was out of context. I introduced the context from the beginning. Then you copied from the context i had provided.

This topic has already been addressed in much detail here in this very same thread:

What Does Aionios Mean? (part 2, It is wrong to define aionios based on aion)

 

[ClementofA]

God wants everybody to be saved, but God does not always get His way.
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Few were finding it, is what it says:

how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it! (Mt.7:14)

Not that few would ever find it. Clearly all will find it, as the same author said earlier in the same writing:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

There is no special salvation, ONLY those who believe will be saved.
4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

That verse says God is the Savior of ALL, and ESPECIALLY of those presently believing.

Compare the use of the same word here:

When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, ESPECIALLY the parchments. (2 Tim.4:3).

Were the scrolls to be left behind, just because the parchments were "special"? No, ALL were to be brought to Paul.

Martin Zender:

The Special Salvation of Believers

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

This last verse clearly says if you don't believe you won't receive life, but the wrath of God abides on you.

Some more literal versions read:

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In chapter 4 he writes:

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

Ilaria Ramelli, <i>The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena</i> | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology

Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

I don't believe in the "good news" of endless tortures.

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

 

[Der Alte]

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):
"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.”...
Ilaria Ramelli, <i>The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena ...

Although this error has been pointed out multiple times you continue to post it. You keep saying that "Origen, speaks of what is 'after eonian life'" Please tell us as concisely as possible exactly what did Origen say is after eonian life?
.....You quote Ilaria Ramelli who says "Origen ... speaks of “life after aionios life.” That is absolutely false which is inexcusable for someone who presents them self as a Bible scholar. Origen did not say anything about "life after eonian life." Lest anyone who is unaware be deceived, once again here is the Origen quote in-context.

(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
(17) He says that eternal life is the [goal], as it were, or the water that springs up, as indeed Solomon says, when he talks about the bridegroom in the Song of Songs, Behold he has come leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it [i.e. the fountain] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.
(20) when the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him.
Commentary on the Gospel According to John​

Please show us where Origen says there is "life after eonian life?" Don't link to a previous post with a lot of smoke and mirrors, please post your response right here.
.....Since Ramelli deliberately misquotes Origen we can reasonably assume that her quotes from Plato, Aristotle and Clement are also misquoted.

 

[Doug Melven]

Few were finding it, is what it says:

The next verse says "few there be that find it" in reference to life
Destruction = broad road, many go that way
Life = narrow road, few find it

God does not want people to go to destruction/hell. He gives us a choice. But, the choice must be made in this life.
It is appointed unto man once to die, after this the judgment. Hebrews 9:27
If it were as you say, we have a choice after we die, why would anyone choose Jesus in this life.
They are comfortable in there sin, they don't have to go through persecution, they can do whatever they want in this life because they know God will accept them in the next life.
I wish you were right, that God would not punish people in the next life, but it simply is not so.
And what if you are wrong, and you told people there is nothing to worry about in the next life because God loves you and won't punish you for rejecting His Son.
And these people you told this doctrine to get to the next life and they find out you were wrong, you just condemned them to an eternity of punishment.
God has set us to be watchmen (Ezekiel 33) and if people heed our warning they will live, if they don't heed our warning, they will die.
Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
But if we don't warn them, they will die. But there blood will be upon us.

When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, ESPECIALLY the parchments. (2 Tim.4:3).

Were the scrolls to be left behind, just because the parchments were "special"? No, ALL were to be brought to Paul.

Paul was telling him that the parchments were what he really wanted. If Timothy had to choose what to bring, he was not to leave the parchments behind.
Remember for them, it was not like loading up a car and going.
They may have had to travel by foot. And when you travel that way, you need to be careful you don't overload yourself.

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

All of the versions you cited said basically the same thing: If you believe, you get life. If you don't believe, you don't get life, but the wrath of God abides on you.
Is the wrath of God abiding on people in this life?

 

[Der Alte]

... I don't believe in the "good news" of endless tortures...

Neither do I. But I do believe.

Matthew 25:41
(41) "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46
(46) "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Mark 9:42-48
(42) "If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.
(43) If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
(45) And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.
(47) And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
(48) where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
​

 

[ClementofA]

If it were as you say, we have a choice after we die, why would anyone choose Jesus in this life.

Because they don't want to go to hell for any length of time, no matter how long it is. And they want to do what is right & loving, not what is selfish, harming others.

Statement of Faith -- Please Read

God does not want people to go to destruction/hell. He gives us a choice. But, the choice must be made in this life.
It is appointed unto man once to die, after this the judgment. Hebrews 9:27

The Bible never says that there is no after death salvation. If that were true, where do aborted babies go?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

And what if you are wrong, and you told people there is nothing to worry about in the next life because God loves you and won't punish you for rejecting His Son.

I don't tell people that because it is wrong. I tell them there is a hell.

And these people you told this doctrine to get to the next life and they find out you were wrong, you just condemned them to an eternity of punishment.

I don't condemn anyone. God does. And they make their own choices to accept or reject Jesus. I'm not their Savior. He is.



According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

All of the versions you cited said basically the same thing: If you believe, you get life. If you don't believe, you don't get life, but the wrath of God abides on you.
Is the wrath of God abiding on people in this life?

Yes. It was once on you when you were an unbeliever. Did you get life even though you were an unbeliever? Yes. Then so can other unbelievers get life. In fact all will according to Rom.5:18-19, 1 Cor.15:22-28, etc.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…


Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[Doug Melven]

Yes. It was once on you when you were an unbeliever. Did you get life even though you were an unbeliever? Yes. Then so can other unbelievers get life. In fact all will according to Rom.5:18-19, 1 Cor.15:22-28, etc.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…


Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

How is the wrath of God being shown on unbelievers in this life?
In this life, a choice can be made.
God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, yet, He has killed people in the OT.
Nadab and Abihu in Leviticus 11
The rebellion of Korah Numbers 16
A world wide flood Genesis 6
God raining fire at Elijah's command 2 Kings 1
And in Acts
Ananias and Saphhira Acts 5
Herod Acts 12:21-23

Again, if everybody is going to be saved, why preach the Gospel?

 

[ClementofA]

In this life, a choice can be made.
God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, yet, He has killed people in the OT.

He killed Sodom, yet Sodom will be raised & restored (Ezek.16:53).

I kill and i make alive, says the Lord in Scripture.

Again, if everybody is going to be saved, why preach the Gospel?

Hell. But not endless tortures.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

 

[ClementofA]

God has set us to be watchmen (Ezekiel 33) and if people heed our warning they will live, if they don't heed our warning, they will die.

That was under the Old Covenant which has passed away. It has no more to do with us today than animal sacrifices & circumcision.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

Paul was telling him that the parchments were what he really wanted. If Timothy had to choose what to bring, he was not to leave the parchments behind.

No, he wanted all of the items he requested:

When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, ESPECIALLY the parchments. (2 Tim.4:3).

Were the scrolls to be left behind, just because the parchments were "special"? No, ALL were to be brought to Paul. Compare:

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1 Tim.4:10)

In your theology God is - only - the Savior of those who believe. In Paul's theology God is the Savior of all people, but of believers in a special way.

Compare:

Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. (Gal.6:10)

 

[Doug Melven]

He killed Sodom, yet Sodom will be raised & restored (Ezek.16:53).

I kill and i make alive, says the Lord in Scripture.

When you put that verse in context you will see that Sodom will not be raised up.
Ezekiel 16
46 “Your elder sister is Samaria, who dwells with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who dwells to the south of you, is Sodom and her daughters. 47 You did not walk in their ways nor act according to their abominations; but, as if that were too little, you became more corrupt than they in all your ways.

48 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “neither your sister Sodom nor her daughters have done as you and your daughters have done. 49 Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit.

51 “Samaria did not commit half of your sins; but you have multiplied your abominations more than they, and have justified your sisters by all the abominations which you have done. 52 You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs; they are more righteous than you. Yes, be disgraced also, and bear your own shame, because you justified your sisters.

53 “When I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, 54 that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when you comforted them. 55 When your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state. 56 For your sister Sodom was not a byword in your mouth in the days of your pride,

Hell. But not endless tortures.

I was reading some of that book, "Hope beyond hell". There is a passage that says something to the effect of
"If hell was actually like it was pictured we would have nightmares and uncontollable weeping".
I was thinking about that and I realized in my own thinking I had kind of just made this eternal hell a doctrine that I believed. Basically, I took the hell out of hell and made it a dry doctrine. And I think the church today has done the same thing. We don't have a burning passion to see lost people saved like Peter and Paul did.
Paul, he said he became all things to all men that by all means he might save some.
All the trials Paul went through just to preach the Gospel is astonishing.
Imprisoned and finally killed for preaching the Gospel so people would not die in there sins.
Peter was crucified for holding on to his faith. Peter just would not shut up till they killed him.
In the days of the early church the Gospel spread like wildfire.
Because these men had a vision, they wanted people to know Jesus. They did not want to see people burn.

No, he wanted all of the items he requested:

When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, ESPECIALLY the parchments. (2 Tim.4:3).

Were the scrolls to be left behind, just because the parchments were "special"? No, ALL were to be brought to Paul. Compare:

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1 Tim.4:10)

In your theology God is - only - the Savior of those who believe. In Paul's theology God is the Savior of all people, but of believers in a special way.

Paul wanted all of the items, but as Timothy was walking to where Paul was Timothy may have had to choose, Paul knew this so he said "Especially the parchments".
In my theology Jesus is the Savior of the world, but ONLY those who accept Jesus will be saved.
Anyone in the world can accept Him. But, they MUST accept Him.

Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. (Gal.6:10)

Just as you want to do good to everybody, but do you have a special place for your immediate family?

 

[ClementofA]

When you put that verse in context you will see that Sodom will not be raised up.
Ezekiel 16
46 “Your elder sister is Samaria, who dwells with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who dwells to the south of you, is Sodom and her daughters. 47 You did not walk in their ways nor act according to their abominations; but, as if that were too little, you became more corrupt than they in all your ways.

48 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “neither your sister Sodom nor her daughters have done as you and your daughters have done. 49 Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit.

51 “Samaria did not commit half of your sins; but you have multiplied your abominations more than they, and have justified your sisters by all the abominations which you have done. 52 You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs; they are more righteous than you. Yes, be disgraced also, and bear your own shame, because you justified your sisters.

53 “When I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, 54 that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when you comforted them. 55 When your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state. 56 For your sister Sodom was not a byword in your mouth in the days of your pride,

I'm not sure where you get that idea from those verses.

Clearly everyone who died will be raised up: JN.5:28-9.

 

[Doug Melven]

I'm not sure where you get that idea from those verses.

Clearly everyone who died will be raised up: JN.5:28-9.

5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This is what you said earlier.

He killed Sodom, yet Sodom will be raised & restored (Ezek.16:53).

I kill and i make alive, says the Lord in Scripture.

God is not going to restore Sodom. Sodom will be raised to the resurrection of damnation, not life.