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What do you think of atheists

chris4243

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Some atheists seem to have made atheism into a religion of sorts, preaching and trying to convert and making obviously flawed arguments. I call them "religious atheists" and that royally [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]es them off. I think most atheists also find these "religiously atheistic" folks to be annoying and embarrassing.

But most atheists are nice, reasonable folks. They're not immoral as some might think, though they do have different moral standards (largely based off the Golden Rule, but with different ideas of what is good or bad for people). They might think we're deluded and try to make us see reason (especially when someone else brings up religion), but being reasonable folks they know there's no point in pushing their opinion where its not welcome.
 
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JediMobius

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Well then go ahead and prove that “God did it” is the true and comprehensive explanation for the beginning of the universe and not just a credulous assumption. Show us that you really do know how the universe began. If you want to claim your God did it then prove beyond reasonable doubt that your God is real and created the universe. And, no, those five arguments don’t do that. They only do what I stated earlier. They label something unknown as “God” for no sound reason. As SithDoughnut has already shown, they are riddled with errors, fallacies and misapprehensions.

Why would I argue an unreasonable reduction of a premise? Would it be fair if I reduced any argument of yours on the matter to "God didn't do it", and further, expected you to prove a premise not your own?

Also, while SithDoughnut is raising thoughtful and valid objections, these do not necessarily equate to errors or the like. The error could be in his own misapprehension, but I'm not assuming that merely because I disagree.
 
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3sigma

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Why would I argue an unreasonable reduction of a premise?
You posted a series of five faulty arguments that claimed that your God is real and that it created the universe and life. I said that the causes of the universe and life are unknown so those claims are really just providing “God did it” as a comforting answer to those questions.

Now, are the answers to those questions known or not? If they aren’t known, which is actually the case, then my saying that those arguments were providing “God did it” as a shallow, comforting answer to unknown questions was, in fact, a reasonable reduction. If you think the answers to those questions are known then tell us what those answers are and prove to us beyond reasonable doubt that they are true.
 
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JediMobius

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That assumes that the Big Bang is not part of an infinite chain. I'm not saying it's true, or even likely, but if you're going to make absolute proofs then you need absolute evidence.

Most, if not all things we observe, have a defined beginning and end. Now while this doesn't prove some impossibility of an infinite event in the universe, it's reasonable to assume all things in the universe have a beginning and an end and do not result from an infinite chain.

Firstly, why is your definition true?

Secondly, why is God the only possible cause? Is it because all the other causes are impossible (for example a wizard who exists outside of time and space, but is not omnipotent or infinite, or something literally coming from nothing), or because you are defining God as the first cause?

It's not so much my definition as it is monotheism's.


God is the only reasonable solution that fully satisfies the conditions of a first cause. A being who exists outside of time and space is either omnipotent over time and space, or incapable of being an initial cause; an initial cause cannot be governed by the same force over the resulting chain of causes, or it would need its own cause. This wizard could not be both finite and yet exist outside time and space, which provide the conditions for finite events and objects. To be outside of time and space is either to be omnipotent and infinite, or to simply not exist. Govern the natural laws, or be governed by them.

Not in a logical argument. Or, at least, there's no need for it.

I would think it illogical to exclude a higher resolution of elusive and abstract concepts.

And that eliminates the Big Bang as a potential first cause how? Given that the laws of physics (and the resultant cause and effect) came into being after the Big Bang, why assume that it is part of a chain that began after it?

Oh, right. Singularity... So, the Big Bang satisfies more conditions than I thought. However, it was finite and therefor must have been governed in some way within space and time. The Big Bang is the first event within time we know of, (right?) but this wouldn't make it the cause of time, would it?

Because perfection is an individual opinion, like the concept of a favourite.

People certainly express their opinion with perfection, but that doesn't make perfection individual opinion. We already have the concepts of favorite, best, most and so on. Perfection is a concept of something beyond these things. It's inconsequential to the concept that mom opens her gift and says "oh, it's perfect" because, though in that moment she meant it, that gift could in no way be flawless. It will break or otherwise fall into entropy. Perfection is completeness. The "perfect day" so to speak does not perfectly provide completeness. Whoever has a perfect day continues to have unfulfilled needs and desires. A "perfect" performance may be true-to-form, but is not entirely complete and flawless. We may call it perfect simply because we could not detect the milliseconds of deviation. When we use perfect as the idea of the most good, it's just like hot or cold. We measure the degree against what we know whether an unknown higher or lower degree actually exists.

So his argument is actually "there is a balance, therefore God exists"?

Balance would be closer to zero. What we have is a universe of positive growth and successful improvement. Balance would be equally failure and success.

Can you give an example of something that has always been good (even survival is not desired by those who commit suicide), or an unalienable right that has always existed? I can't think of one.

Life has always been a good thing. It's not that the suicidal do not desire life and survival, it's that they find life is not as good as it should be, and give up. Although, mostly, they want to continue living so long as someone notices and helps. Even if some suicidal individuals somehow disagreed that life is a good thing, a significant portion of the rest of us would want to help them realize that life is a good thing and keep them from killing themselves.

Liberty, justice, and the pursuit of happiness have existed as long as intelligent beings have. It's not the rights that have always existed, but the concepts those rights secure and define.

Evolution is aimless, but it does follow a logical path. There is no need for a designer, but it's not chance either. There is a middle ground that Aquinas did not deal with, which is understandable because the option wasn't available to him at the time. However, it's here now, and it needs to be included.

How can something be aimless but not chance? Evolution must be directed or random. A middle option would suggest it is both yet somehow neither. This works for shades of color, but I don't expect it would work for evolution.

Possibly, but the arguments leave huge gaps where there should be further logical steps, generally regarding the whole "first cause = God" argument. If God is really the only possibility, the argument should demonstrate this. It should not be assumed that the reader will just go with it.

Reasonable.

What are these qualities and how do you know God has them?

If I haven't covered this sufficiently above, I'm sure you will have addressed the above bit about the concept of God. At this stage, I don't think we need to be concerned with past perception since....

I'm completely in agreement with you here, which is why Aquinas' arguments should at least be somewhat updated to keep up with the world as we understand it.

I guess I'm going to try to fill in the blanks, keep it cogent, and hope I'm up to the challenge.

Thanks, I've found some promising sites as well, so I'll have a look.

Word.
 
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JediMobius

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You posted a series of five faulty arguments that claimed that your God is real and that it created the universe and life. I said that the causes of the universe and life are unknown so those claims are really just providing “God did it” as a comforting answer to those questions.

Now, are the answers to those questions known or not? If they aren’t known, which is actually the case, then my saying that those arguments were providing “God did it” as a shallow, comforting answer to unknown questions was, in fact, a reasonable reduction. If you think the answers to those questions are known then tell us what those answers are and prove to us beyond reasonable doubt that they are true.

Or is the "comforting answer" the argument that the universe doesn't need God to exist? If God is in fact the cause of life and all existence, this would not be a substitute for the quest to understand the mechanisms by which God did create the universe. So, I don't understand what's shallow about seeking to understand existence and the cause thereof to be expressed philosophically.
 
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3sigma

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Or is the "comforting answer" the argument that the universe doesn't need God to exist?
I don’t find that a comforting answer. In fact, “the argument that the universe doesn’t need God to exist” doesn’t seem like an answer to anything. How about you? Do you find it comforting?

If God is in fact the cause of life and all existence, this would not be a substitute for the quest to understand the mechanisms by which God did create the universe. So, I don't understand what's shallow about seeking to understand existence and the cause thereof to be expressed philosophically.
There is nothing shallow about the quest to understand the beginning of the universe and life. However, there is no need to assume “God did it” to search for the mechanism by which the universe and life began. The assumption is of no aid to the search and could easily be a hindrance if you are basing your reasoning on a false assumption, which is more than likely. Assuming “God did it” and leaving it at that is definitely a shallow answer.
 
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SithDoughnut

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Most, if not all things we observe, have a defined beginning and end. Now while this doesn't prove some impossibility of an infinite event in the universe, it's reasonable to assume all things in the universe have a beginning and an end and do not result from an infinite chain.

"In the universe" being the operative words. We have evidence and knowledge of how the universe works, but we have little beyond speculation to go on when it comes to the Big Bang.

God is the only reasonable solution that fully satisfies the conditions of a first cause. A being who exists outside of time and space is either omnipotent over time and space, or incapable of being an initial cause;

Why? Surely you would merely have to be able to create a universe to fit the argument. That is not omnipotence, as the universe is finite.

I would think it illogical to exclude a higher resolution of elusive and abstract concepts.

I would think it illogical to regard them as necessary.

Oh, right. Singularity... So, the Big Bang satisfies more conditions than I thought. However, it was finite and therefor must have been governed in some way within space and time. The Big Bang is the first event within time we know of, (right?) but this wouldn't make it the cause of time, would it?

No, as far as I understand time started with the Big Bang. Perhaps it was finite, but so is the universe.

People certainly express their opinion with perfection, but that doesn't make perfection individual opinion. We already have the concepts of favorite, best, most and so on. Perfection is a concept of something beyond these things. It's inconsequential to the concept that mom opens her gift and says "oh, it's perfect" because, though in that moment she meant it, that gift could in no way be flawless. It will break or otherwise fall into entropy. Perfection is completeness.

Completeness of what? I'm seeing yet another subjective view of perfection here.

Balance would be closer to zero. What we have is a universe of positive growth and successful improvement. Balance would be equally failure and success.

Can you explain how this applies to Aquinas' arguments, or arguments for God in general?

Life has always been a good thing. It's not that the suicidal do not desire life and survival, it's that they find life is not as good as it should be, and give up. Although, mostly, they want to continue living so long as someone notices and helps. Even if some suicidal individuals somehow disagreed that life is a good thing, a significant portion of the rest of us would want to help them realize that life is a good thing and keep them from killing themselves.

If you find life to not be good, then you are not viewing it as a good thing. I don't see how this demonstrates an objective view of life being good.

Liberty, justice, and the pursuit of happiness have existed as long as intelligent beings have. It's not the rights that have always existed, but the concepts those rights secure and define.

Slavery, dictatorships and a downtrodden class have existed even longer, and exist even now, and there are many who consider this to be a good thing.

How can something be aimless but not chance? Evolution must be directed or random. A middle option would suggest it is both yet somehow neither. This works for shades of color, but I don't expect it would work for evolution.

For that, you'll need a better explanation of evolution than I can give you right now. I'll try to put one together if you want, but for now I'll say that evolution is a matter of the environment. You get random mutations, but it is the mutation that reproduces the most that survives. There is no goal or aim, but evolution is not the pure randomness that chance is.
 
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Drathnor

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Some atheists seem to have made atheism into a religion of sorts, preaching and trying to convert and making obviously flawed arguments. I call them "religious atheists" and that royally [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]es them off. I think most atheists also find these "religiously atheistic" folks to be annoying and embarrassing.

But most atheists are nice, reasonable folks. They're not immoral as some might think, though they do have different moral standards (largely based off the Golden Rule, but with different ideas of what is good or bad for people). They might think we're deluded and try to make us see reason (especially when someone else brings up religion), but being reasonable folks they know there's no point in pushing their opinion where its not welcome.

Its to be expected though, since groups such as jehovah's witnesses seem to visit every month, or whoever is prominant in your area.

Youtube has afew funny videos of people trying to preach on univercity grounds with megaphones and getting rediculed too.

So yeah, im not particularly against preaching religion or atheism so long as its not being screamed at me when im trying to concentrate at univercity or at home.

I do love a goood debate though :)
 
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Lord Emsworth

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The First Way: Argument from Motion


[snip]

The Second Way: Argument from Efficient Causes

[snip]

The Third Way: Argument from Possibility and Necessity (Reductio argument)

[snip]

The Fourth Way: Argument from Gradation of Being

No. It is not about some cause, or some being, or something greater. God needs to be meaningfully intelligent, or conscious, or sentient. None of the arguments above have even just the faintest trace of any of that.

It might be true that God would also be the, say, prime mover. But you cannot go and argue for a prime mover and pass that off as necessarily God. It smacks of affirming the consequent.


The Fifth Way: Argument from Design

Meaningfully intelligent. And not just via a meaningless label. ;)
 
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JediMobius

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"In the universe" being the operative words. We have evidence and knowledge of how the universe works, but we have little beyond speculation to go on when it comes to the Big Bang.

The earliest moments of the Big Bang are speculative, a lot of it is theoretical. The Big Bang is also part of what happens "in the universe" being that it is a description of events, not any sort of initial force or cause.

Why? Surely you would merely have to be able to create a universe to fit the argument. That is not omnipotence, as the universe is finite.

I'm not sure how all of that follows.

I would think it illogical to regard them as necessary.

Language and philosophy require the use of abstracts. Anything that cannot be directly observed is either in the mind, or abstract.

No, as far as I understand time started with the Big Bang. Perhaps it was finite, but so is the universe.

The Big Bang is a description of the initial events within time. There is no explanation of how time and space exist. In fact, the universal laws must be assumed for the Big Bang to work. Now, because the universe is finite, and current observation makes a closed universe very unlikely, it is not reasonable to assume an infinite chain of causes. Therefor, we arrive at the necessity of an initial cause.

Completeness of what? I'm seeing yet another subjective view of perfection here.

Wikipedia: Perfection is, broadly, a state of completeness and flawlessness.

Perfection, completeness, and flawlessness are abstracts. As such, they encompasses different traits depending on the object they describe. In the sense of a perfect God, this requires a completeness and flawlessness which transcends subjectivity. A God who is different for each individual, or a different God for each individual creates glaring, irreconcilable contradictions. In the sense of the universe, these same traits are required to a lesser degree than godliness, since near completeness and near flawlessness are enough to provide a well functioning system of laws and constants. What Aquinas referred to as perfection in the world/universe is akin to the idea of the Fine-tuned Universe.

Can you explain how this applies to Aquinas' arguments, or arguments for God in general?

Your summary of the 4th proof went from "I want it to be so it is true" to "there is a balance, therefore God exists" to which I argued that we don't really see a balance. A balance should be expected of a universe without direction. What can be observed is an upward trend of progress; things build up, increase, and improve more often than break down, decrease, and decline. While we do see the latter, providing the universal possibility of balance, the overall sum is not balance, but growth.

If you find life to not be good, then you are not viewing it as a good thing. I don't see how this demonstrates an objective view of life being good.

I think we'd find that suicidal individuals believe life to be not good only temporarily. If a murderer believes life is not good and therefor kills, should he be left to his subjective view of life's goodness? Or would we agree that his view is skewed? Objectivity is what exists beyond the moment and beyond the self. A single moment to the contrary of a universal truth does not simply dismantle it.

Slavery, dictatorships and a downtrodden class have existed even longer, and exist even now, and there are many who consider this to be a good thing.

I don't know about many, I expect people who think any of these are good things are relatively few. Would you honestly state that slavery, dictatorships, and downtrodden classes should be allowed to exist, regardless of whatever power to change these circumstances? Should genocide be allowed only because the killers believe it is right?

For that, you'll need a better explanation of evolution than I can give you right now. I'll try to put one together if you want, but for now I'll say that evolution is a matter of the environment. You get random mutations, but it is the mutation that reproduces the most that survives. There is no goal or aim, but evolution is not the pure randomness that chance is.

Even if the outcome of a random mutation is predictable, the mechanism itself remains random. Allowing for an infinite possibility of variables, it's as likely that evolution would have produced a stalemate of equally fit species. Of course, evolution is not the only factor at play in survival, but environmental advantages and disadvantages provide a greater possibility of relative stalemate between species. If some aspect of evolution somehow counters this, I'd like to know about it.
 
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JediMobius

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No. It is not about some cause, or some being, or something greater. God needs to be meaningfully intelligent, or conscious, or sentient. None of the arguments above have even just the faintest trace of any of that.

It might be true that God would also be the, say, prime mover. But you cannot go and argue for a prime mover and pass that off as necessarily God. It smacks of affirming the consequent.

Meaningfully intelligent. And not just via a meaningless label. ;)

Provisions for the existence of God do not require provisions for the entire definition of God. That would be a separate argument. If it is found that God as an initial mover necessitates certain traits, then God must simply possess those traits to satisfy the role of God.
 
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Lord Emsworth

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Provisions for the existence of God do not require provisions for the entire definition of God.

I would think though that you ought to argue for something - how to put it? - for something more juicy.

I mean you would not go and cite the possibility of space travel as an argument for Klingon Birds of Prey. :p


That would be a separate argument. If it is found that God as an initial mover necessitates certain traits, then God must simply possess those traits to satisfy the role of God.

I think I agree.
 
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JediMobius

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I would think though that you ought to argue for something - how to put it? - for something more juicy.

I mean you would not go and cite the possibility of space travel as an argument for Klingon Birds of Prey. :p

Ah, but a Klingon Bird of Prey is a concrete example of the abstract concept of space travel. I'm arguing that a concept most commonly labeled God is reasonably the only possible initial cause, and that there is other evidence for this. I am not, however, arguing that this must be the Christian God, or any other specific God known to any religion. For that matter, this God could be someone no one has even come close to defining.
 
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sandwiches

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I'm arguing that a concept most commonly labeled God is reasonably the only possible initial cause, and that there is other evidence for this.

I disagree. This is not reasonable in that

1) We don't know that the universe had to have a beginning
2) If it did have a beginning, there's no reason to assume the cause was anything but natural and of this universe, as all other causes we've ever observed are
3) If there was a cause "outside" this universe, it didn't have to be a single cause. It could have been multiple simulataneous causes.
4) If it was a single cause, it didn't have to be a sentient entity
5) If it was a sentient entity, it doesn't have to be good.

So, there's too many assumptions to make to think the sentient, benevolent, single entity is reasonable or even possible.
 
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sandwiches

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How can something be aimless but not chance? Evolution must be directed or random. A middle option would suggest it is both yet somehow neither. This works for shades of color, but I don't expect it would work for evolution.

Because "guided" is not the opposite of "random."
Guided versus unguided.
Random versus deterministic.
 
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Lord Emsworth

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Ah, but a Klingon Bird of Prey is a concrete example of the abstract concept of space travel.

The class of Klingon Bird of Prey ships is an abstract concept too, if you wish. Comparable to the 'class' God.

And talking about space travel does not get you one step closer to the abstract concept "class of Klingon Birds of Prey". And likewise arguing about - what were those first four arguments about again? - causes, prime movers does not get you one step closer to Gods.


I'm arguing that a concept most commonly labeled God is reasonably the only possible initial cause, and that there is other evidence for this.

In those arguments that you quoted there was not a whole lot to that end now, or was there? ;)



I am not, however, arguing that this must be the Christian God, or any other specific God known to any religion. For that matter, this God could be someone no one has even come close to defining.

You must know what you are talking about and what you are arguing for. *shrugs*

:p
 
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SithDoughnut

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The earliest moments of the Big Bang are speculative, a lot of it is theoretical. The Big Bang is also part of what happens "in the universe" being that it is a description of events, not any sort of initial force or cause.

That's true - it would be more accurate to say that the singularity is potentially the first cause. As for being theoretical, when it comes to this subject everything is theoretical.

I'm not sure how all of that follows.

It is not necessary that God be omnipotent to fit the definitions given in Aquinas' arguments. Anything capable of creating a universe would work.

Language and philosophy require the use of abstracts. Anything that cannot be directly observed is either in the mind, or abstract.

All of which need to be clearly defined in a good logical arguments. That's why there's no room for nuance - understanding logical arguments shouldn't be a matter of interpretation.

The Big Bang is a description of the initial events within time. There is no explanation of how time and space exist. In fact, the universal laws must be assumed for the Big Bang to work.

Not really. It is still unknown exactly what happened in the first few moments, because the laws of physics break down as you go further and further back.

Now, because the universe is finite, and current observation makes a closed universe very unlikely, it is not reasonable to assume an infinite chain of causes. Therefor, we arrive at the necessity of an initial cause.

The universe is a closed system, but why does that mean that it cannot be part of a larger system?

Wikipedia: Perfection is, broadly, a state of completeness and flawlessness.

Perfection, completeness, and flawlessness are abstracts. As such, they encompasses different traits depending on the object they describe. In the sense of a perfect God, this requires a completeness and flawlessness which transcends subjectivity.

Why? Our language (poorly) explains the universe, it does not bend reality to fit it. Just because the word perfection may demand objectivity, it does not make it so. Where can we find this objective standard of perfection, as to be able to judge God by this criteria, it must be a separate entity?

What Aquinas referred to as perfection in the world/universe is akin to the idea of the Fine-tuned Universe.

The fine-tuned universe argument is weak as well, as it relies upon a sample size of 1. We have one universe to judge, and it works for life - we do not know how many failed universes there are, or were, or will be.

Your summary of the 4th proof went from "I want it to be so it is true" to "there is a balance, therefore God exists" to which I argued that we don't really see a balance. A balance should be expected of a universe without direction. What can be observed is an upward trend of progress; things build up, increase, and improve more often than break down, decrease, and decline. While we do see the latter, providing the universal possibility of balance, the overall sum is not balance, but growth.

What about entropy? Besides, and I'm not saying this from a knowledgeable position, but the total energy of the universe is apparently 0. This seems to explain it (in a rather complicated fashion):

http://www.iigss.net/Scientific-Inquiry/June07/2-Fiscaletti.pdf

I think we'd find that suicidal individuals believe life to be not good only temporarily. If a murderer believes life is not good and therefor kills, should he be left to his subjective view of life's goodness? Or would we agree that his view is skewed? Objectivity is what exists beyond the moment and beyond the self. A single moment to the contrary of a universal truth does not simply dismantle it.

Some suicidal people will forever be suicidal or depressed. Your example of the murderer shows that subjective views exist - if there is an objective truth to compare them too, where is it? What is it? And how do you know it exists?

I don't know about many, I expect people who think any of these are good things are relatively few. Would you honestly state that slavery, dictatorships, and downtrodden classes should be allowed to exist, regardless of whatever power to change these circumstances? Should genocide be allowed only because the killers believe it is right?

Now we're heading in the direction of morality, which is an entirely different discussion (but definitely an interesting one) that should probably be had in another thread.

However, I will point out that slavery has existed for a very long time. The Bible takes no issue with slavery, or the existence of inequality. Belief systems and worldviews around the world have a concept of a class system - feudalism, for example, which most of the world has followed in one way or another.

It is my view that, as right and wrong exist within the human mind, the existence of different opinions demonstrates that they are subjective. If there is an objective criteria, it must exist somewhere else, but we have not found any suggestion of it anywhere.

Even if the outcome of a random mutation is predictable, the mechanism itself remains random. Allowing for an infinite possibility of variables, it's as likely that evolution would have produced a stalemate of equally fit species. Of course, evolution is not the only factor at play in survival, but environmental advantages and disadvantages provide a greater possibility of relative stalemate between species. If some aspect of evolution somehow counters this, I'd like to know about it.

The environment and survival are part of evolution. What you're thinking of is mutations, which are essentially the first step. Those are random up to a point - there are still limitations on what is possible - but it then moves on to survival of the fittest, which is not random at all. Ecosystems generally do find a balance, but environments change, and the balance is destroyed. You only have to look at human action to see how this happens.

Again, though, this is heading into new thread territory.
 
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