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What do you think of atheists

GrayAngel

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I feel that all theists must honestly and rationally respond to the claims of atheists, as opposed to dismissing them out of hand. Theism must come to terms with atheistic arguments, and if a theist isn't capable of at least attempting to rationally respond to atheistic arguments, they really shouldn't be a theist in the first place.

It's sad I even have to point this out, really.

Is this directed towards me, or to Christians in general?

If it's to me, I don't treat all atheists the way I do 3sigma. When I feel like the person I'm debating with is hearing and understanding what I'm saying (note: they don't have to agree with me), rather than just trying to prove me wrong, then I enjoy a friendly debate.

If it's to Christians in general, theists don't have to consider anyone's point of view. Some choose to seek out other point of views to enrich their own knowledge, but it's not a necessity. We can all get along without it. And actually, getting into debates, while they may be fun at times, are actually quite stressful. It can be overdone to the point where it becomes a burden.

It's good to have our minds stretched every once and a while, but it's up to each individual to decide for themselves how much is enough.

Also, coming into a debate as a Christian against atheists isn't the same as coming into a debate as an atheist against theists. Christianity is automatically put on the defense, and rarely the other way around, because there is no way to argue against doubt. It's not fair of you to expect anyone to willingly participate in putting themselves on the defense. It's easy for you, because you're not the one having their beliefs picked apart.
 
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3sigma

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And actually, getting into debates, while they may be fun at times, are actually quite stressful.
Yes, I imagine it is quite stressful for you when you are asked reasonable and legitimate questions about your unsubstantiated beliefs and, having no reasonable answers, you have to resort to evading or ignoring those questions.

It's not fair of you to expect anyone to willingly participate in putting themselves on the defense. It's easy for you, because you're not the one having their beliefs picked apart.
It is entirely fair to expect you to answer reasonable questions about your beliefs, yet time and time again, you evade or ignore those questions. Just tell us what sound reason you have to believe your God is real? That’s all I ask, but I predict you will ignore this question yet again, just as you’ve done so many times before.
 
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GrayAngel

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3sigma, this is exactly the stuff I was talking about. You need to get over this annoying fascination you have.

I was actually beginning to like you a little better when you said you never report anyone (assuming you're telling the truth, and not just trying to prove me wrong again).
 
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Nothing wrong with atheists if they don't let their ego run wild, just like people of various faiths who can let their ego run wild. They get annoying when they either make fun of people who believe in God or act like anyone who believes is a moron.

What I find interesting when they make fun is they will say how silly it is to believe in a creator or as they like to say "some big guy in the sky" yet they believe:

-that the universe just *poof* came from nothing.

-that life probably came from some inorganic pile of goo.

-many other things I do not want to get into right now.

So the people who believe in there being something of a higher form behind things existing are crazy while believing in things just *poof* basically came from nothing is the intelligent choice? Interesting. Sorry but to me, not believing in a creator (and note, that doesn't mean it has to be the personal God of the bible) while believing in things just coming from nothing is more a fairytale/stretch.

I will say I don't think anyone should lump an entire belief system/group together where if you have issues with some in that group you don't view everyone the same way. There are many Christians out there who are flat out bad/crazy and I doubt everyone would like it if they were lumped in with them in the eyes of others.
 
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3sigma

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3sigma, this is exactly the stuff I was talking about. You need to get over this annoying fascination you have.

I was actually beginning to like you a little better when you said you never report anyone (assuming you're telling the truth, and not just trying to prove me wrong again).
I admit I am fascinated by the bizarre ways some people think. I am quite curious to know why anyone would believe something—that, to me, is patently ridiculous—without having a single sound reason to believe it. I’m not trying to prove you wrong. Your religious beliefs may not be wrong, but they certainly aren’t well founded. I’m curious to know how you reached the ill-founded conclusion that your beliefs are correct. How did you come to the conclusion that your God is real when you apparently have no sound reason to believe it?

And, yes, I am telling the truth about never reporting anyone here. In fact, I have never lied about anything here, despite your false accusation to the contrary. You can ask the moderators for confirmation if you wish. If they balk, you can quote this post as permission for them to tell you whether I have ever reported anyone.
 
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3sigma

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What I find interesting when they make fun is they will say how silly it is to believe in a creator or as they like to say "some big guy in the sky" yet they believe:

-that the universe just *poof* came from nothing.

-that life probably came from some inorganic pile of goo.
As an atheist myself, I can tell you that I don’t believe those things. As far as I know, we have no current explanation for the beginning of the universe or abiogenesis. I find it interesting that you should mention those particular beliefs, though, because I’ve heard that Christianity teaches that the Christian God created the universe from nothing and created life from dirt and many Christians apparently believe that.
 
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GrayAngel

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I admit I am fascinated by the bizarre ways some people think. I am quite curious to know why anyone would believe something—that, to me, is patently ridiculous—without having a single sound reason to believe it. I’m not trying to prove you wrong. Your religious beliefs may not be wrong, but they certainly aren’t well founded. I’m curious to know how you reached the ill-founded conclusion that your beliefs are correct. How did you come to the conclusion that your God is real when you apparently have no sound reason to believe it?

Sounds to me like you already have your mind made up. You already know I how "no sound reason" to believe in God, so what's the point?

I find it funny how atheists try to apply their own reasoning like it's the only way anyone should think. Of course you're going to propose that no one should believe in something they can't prove exists: your faith is based on disbelief!

If we applied this kind of reasoning to the rest of the world, we'd have to stop believing in a lot of other things too. Love, for example, is not something tangible. It can't be directly studied (we study manifestations of love, but not love itself). We can experience love, but many argue we can experience God too. So I guess we should just throw love out the window, because we have no sound reason to believe it exists.

Heck, if I wanted to, I could even question the existence of the world we live in. How do we know the world we're living in even exists? For all we know, this could all just be a dream, nothing but a figment of one's imagination. Or maybe we're all living in a computer program, like the Matrix. Do we have any reason to believe this universe exists?
 
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3sigma

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Sounds to me like you already have your mind made up. You already know I how "no sound reason" to believe in God, so what's the point?
I said you apparently have no sound reason to believe your God is real. That’s because you have consistently evaded or ignored all my requests for you to provide one. My suspicion, therefore, is that you have none to provide. Of course, you could quite easily show that you do have a sound reason to believe your God is real simply by providing one. Will you? I doubt it.

Love, for example, is not something tangible. It can't be directly studied (we study manifestations of love, but not love itself). We can experience love, but many argue we can experience God too. So I guess we should just throw love out the window, because we have no sound reason to believe it exists.
Love exists, but not in the same sense that Christians claim their God exists. Love is an emotion. It is just a feeling you have. It exists only within your mind, not with an independent, objective existence as a separate, physical entity capable of influencing the natural world by itself without the aid of living organisms. Unless, of course, you are saying that your God is just a feeling you have; that it only exists within your mind and hence cannot directly influence the natural world by, for example, creating things, performing miracles or answering prayers. Is that what you are saying; your God is just a feeling you have?

How do we know the world we're living in even exists? For all we know, this could all just be a dream, nothing but a figment of one's imagination. Or maybe we're all living in a computer program, like the Matrix. Do we have any reason to believe this universe exists?
We have sound, objective evidence directly derived from our physical senses that the world and the universe exist. We have no such evidence that your God is real. However, this retreat into solipsism by religious believers when they are challenged makes no sense because if you want to claim that everything about us is imaginary then your God is also certainly imaginary. It doesn’t help your case at all. It still leaves you with no sound reason to believe your God is real.
 
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DataPacRat

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Heck, if I wanted to, I could even question the existence of the world we live in. How do we know the world we're living in even exists? For all we know, this could all just be a dream, nothing but a figment of one's imagination. Or maybe we're all living in a computer program, like the Matrix. Do we have any reason to believe this universe exists?

Aha - a perfect example to apply the Stick Test. If you are seriously considering the proposition about whether or not the world revealed to you by your senses really exists...

... then I shall start whapping you repeatedly on the head with a stick. After all, if the world doesn't exist, then the stick doesn't exist either, and so you have no particular reason to ask me to stop whapping you. If you even suggest that you don't want to be whapped on the head with a stick, then you are, by definition, accepting that the stick exists, and thus that the world and universe which the stick is a part of also exists.
 
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Skavau

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Aha - a perfect example to apply the Stick Test. If you are seriously considering the proposition about whether or not the world revealed to you by your senses really exists...

... then I shall start whapping you repeatedly on the head with a stick. After all, if the world doesn't exist, then the stick doesn't exist either, and so you have no particular reason to ask me to stop whapping you. If you even suggest that you don't want to be whapped on the head with a stick, then you are, by definition, accepting that the stick exists, and thus that the world and universe which the stick is a part of also exists.
Well, not quite - he could ask you to stop because his imagination is telling him that it hurts and would like the hurt to stop.

I think the bigger point is that whether or not we live in a dream-world or a world born of our imagination (or one of our imaginations, the only 'real' one) is that it does not matter. It is an unfalsifiable claim. It is not something that is relevant, for so far as everything suggests so far - our dream world impacts upon us and we can have effects on it as well.
 
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DataPacRat

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Well, not quite - he could ask you to stop because his imagination is telling him that it hurts and would like the hurt to stop.

He /could/ - but in that case, if I'm just a figment of his imagination, then I don't have a mind of my own to decide to stop whapping him - it's his /own/ mind that is generating the sensations of being whapped, and 'I', not really existing, have no desires of my own, nor any freedom of choice to stop. In this case, he'd be whapping /himself/, and since it's his own mind that is causing the whapping, in a certain light, it's his own mind that desires the whapping to continue - so I might as well keep on whapping him, since it's what his imagination wants me to do. :)

The Stick Test is useful for clearing out all /sorts/ of philosophical navel-gazing.

I think the bigger point is that whether or not we live in a dream-world or a world born of our imagination (or one of our imaginations, the only 'real' one) is that it does not matter. It is an unfalsifiable claim. It is not something that is relevant, for so far as everything suggests so far - our dream world impacts upon us and we can have effects on it as well.

'Unfalsifiable' is a start; with my current studies, I'd prefer to describe the idea as being unable to be used to make any predictions about what he would experience. If all he experiences is his, or somebody else's, imagination, then it's just as likely that I will continue whapping him as it is that I will stop whapping him as it is that a whale will fall from the sky to squash me. Whereas the assumption that I 'really' exist and have a mind of my own and can be persuaded to do certain actions in my best interest provides a framework by which he can try certain actions that are more likely to get me to stop whapping him than others, such as arguing that it's in my own best interest not to go around whapping solipsists.
 
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GrayAngel

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In my dreams, my nightmare creatures torture me whether I tell them to stop or not. But, those creatures are not any more real because they don't follow my will. They are figments of my imagination, created by my subconscious to, for whatever reason, cause me discomfort.

How is the situation of you whapping me with a stick any different from a nightmare? Maybe my mind isn't so concerned about my own happiness as it is to convince me of this reality.

There's actually a reason why I chose this example, apart from being a convenient example. I actually have had some moments when I've felt as if my mind was trying to escape from my body. I would become hyperaware of my surroundings, and I'd think very clearly. But I get this strange sensation like something doesn't seem right. I don't think this is so unusual, because others have drawn inspiration for stories like The Matrix from these kinds of feelings.

I don't believe that I'm in a dream world created in my mind, but it's not because I have any reason to. I choose to believe this world exists because I have nothing to gain from believing the opposite. If nothing is real, then nothing really matters.
 
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GrayAngel

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I said you apparently have no sound reason to believe your God is real. That’s because you have consistently evaded or ignored all my requests for you to provide one. My suspicion, therefore, is that you have none to provide. Of course, you could quite easily show that you do have a sound reason to believe your God is real simply by providing one. Will you? I doubt it.

I have reason to believe my God exists. But as I said in my topic, there is no way anyone can prove to someone else that God exists.

Are you incapable of seeing that your opinion that nothing that can't be proven to exist is worth believing in is completely based on your personal beliefs? This is not a universal truth: it's the rational you chose to justify your own disbelief.

Unlike you, I believe that living in such a way leads to an empty life. I don't agree that just because I can't prove to you that God exists that it's not worth believing in Him.

You used to believe in God, didn't you? My guess is somewhere down the line, you let someone convince you of this idea, and when you did, you began playing by their rules. For a while, you probably tried to defend your beliefs, taking on the impossible task of trying to prove that God exists to other people, when you should have been trying to prove it to yourself.

Eventually, you grew tired of having to defend your beliefs, and your thirst for certainty became more important than your faith.

Love exists, but not in the same sense that Christians claim their God exists. Love is an emotion. It is just a feeling you have. It exists only within your mind, not with an independent, objective existence as a separate, physical entity capable of influencing the natural world by itself without the aid of living organisms. Unless, of course, you are saying that your God is just a feeling you have; that it only exists within your mind and hence cannot directly influence the natural world by, for example, creating things, performing miracles or answering prayers. Is that what you are saying; your God is just a feeling you have?

Love is not just an emotion. If you think that way, you're not likely to have a successful marriage. Anyone who has kids, anyone whose marriage has survived passed their golden anniversary, or anyone who has a close-knit family will tell you that they don't feel love. The feeling is just one of the many manifestations of love. It exists even when the person you love makes you want to strangle them. Love is more about how it drives you to act rather than what it makes you feel.

God is very similar (probably one reason why they say that God is love). Sometimes you feel Him (rarely), sometimes you don't. The feeling is a sign to the people who have it that God is moving.

You can't study love directly, and you can't study God directly. Neither one can be proven to exist, yet very few deny the existence of love. The difference is it's not convenient for them to believe in God.

If anyone feels God, the world tells them it's all in their heads. It's probably also because they've never experienced God themselves, so whatever they haven't experienced themselves couldn't possibly exist in their minds.
 
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DataPacRat

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I have reason to believe my God exists. But as I said in my topic, there is no way anyone can prove to someone else that God exists.

Are you incapable of seeing that your opinion that nothing that can't be proven to exist is worth believing in is completely based on your personal beliefs? This is not a universal truth: it's the rational you chose to justify your own disbelief.

There are a great number of things that can't be proven to exist: leprechauns, invisible pink unicorns, God, teapots floating in orbit between Earth and Mars, Zeus, Horus, Thor, shinto spirits, Sasquatch, fairies, Santa Claus, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and many more. Is it, then, rational to live your life as if each and every one of these things is real?
 
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GrayAngel

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There are a great number of things that can't be proven to exist: leprechauns, invisible pink unicorns, God, teapots floating in orbit between Earth and Mars, Zeus, Horus, Thor, shinto spirits, Sasquatch, fairies, Santa Claus, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and many more. Is it, then, rational to live your life as if each and every one of these things is real?

Most of those things could be proven to exist. All you'd have to do is find one and take a picture, and if possible, take something as physical evidence.

But whether or not there are any invisible unicorns (they can't be both pink and invisible) doesn't make a difference to me. And if I ever see a little green man looking for his pot o' gold, no big deal. Whether or not I die believing in these things, it will not affect me any.

I believe in God for very different reasons. Throughout my life, I have seen evidence that my God exists. None of it could be studied in a test tube, but it's just as real to me.

My faith is not just something I believe in, hoping it will save me from death. Although, this is a big part of it, because without the afterlife, all of this is for nothing. But it also affects the way I live. It changes my outlook on life, it changes the way I spend my time, and it affects my priorities and what I value.

I have the right to believe in whatever I want to believe in. I don't have to accept your standards, and I don't have to put rationality at the top of my list of concerns. In my opinion, the only life worth living is one walked by faith, not by sight (rationality, certainty, science, the senses).
 
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DataPacRat

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Most of those things could be proven to exist. All you'd have to do is find one and take a picture, and if possible, take something as physical evidence.

Most, but not all. There are some which it is infeasible or by definition impossible to acquire physical evidence thereof. Of course, by the same token, there are people who claim that it is possible to take certain things as physical evidence of God - splinters of the Holy Cross, finding the warehouse containing the box holding the Ark of the Covenant, locating Noah's ark, and so on. I'd say the standards of proof involved are pretty even between them all.

But whether or not there are any invisible unicorns (they can't be both pink and invisible)
(It's at least as possible as any being containing any other seemingly contradictory characteristics. And the proponents of the IPU even have an entertaining .PNG image, with two layers; one defines an image of a pink unicorn, the other defines an alpha channel that makes the unicorn effectively transparent - I don't have enough posts yet to offer a link, but it's available at the Wikipedia page for the IPU.)


doesn't make a difference to me. And if I ever see a little green man looking for his pot o' gold, no bit deal. Whether or not I die believing in these things, it will not affect me any.
Well, for me, it's not about whether I /die/ believing in these things, but whether I /live my life/ believing in them - and basing my actions on those beliefs.

I believe in God for very different reasons. Throughout my life, I have seen evidence that my God exists. None of it could be studied in a test tube, but it's just as real to me.
Test tubes are overrated. Evidence is evidence - the tricky part, and the part that few people even think of working on, let along getting a good handle about, is figuring out /which/ evidence is most /useful/ at slicing away falsehoods to arrive at the core of the truth.

My faith is not just something I believe in, hoping it will save me from death.
Pascal's wager is highly overrated.

Although, this is a big part of it, because without the afterlife, all of this is for nothing.
The belief that the only viable philosophy if there's a lack of (post-life) immortality is nihilism is astonishingly common - but is also highly suspect. I want my close family members to continue to have good lives after I die; I want humanity (or sentient life in general) as a whole to avoid extinction after I die; and just because I won't necessarily be around to help out with that doesn't mean that such things don't matter to me while I'm alive.

(And, of course, there's always the transhumanist/singularitian viewpoint. In 25 years, the rate of increase in technology may reach a tipping point in which peoples' expected lifespans start increasing at at least one year per year. Or, there's a theory that suggests a sufficiently advanced computer in the future, which may be able to create a simulation of past events with enough fidelity to create new copies of everyone who's ever lived - and when they die in the simulation, to preserve their mind-states and allow them to continue running in new environments. I've recently been thinking about theories of identity, such as who (if anyone) is really 'you' if an identical copy of you is made; even without a supernatural afterlife, it's possible that some version of 'me' will care very much about the legacy I leave after I die.)


But it also affects the way I live. It changes my outlook on life, it changes the way I spend my time, and it affects my priorities and what I value.

I have the right to believe in whatever I want to believe in. I don't have to accept your standards, and I don't have to put rationality at the top of my list of concerns.
You do, indeed, have that right. The only way I can ensure that /I/ have the right to believe in whatever I do, is to ensure that /everyone/ possesses that same right - no matter how irrational I may believe their beliefs are. :)

In my opinion, the only life worth living is one walked by faith, not by sight (rationality, certainty, science, the senses).
My opinion isn't quite the opposite. I have chosen, as my ethical standard, "the preservation and promotion of sentient life". (And I sometimes throw in, "especially my own", depending on the phase of the moon.) As long as peoples' faith doesn't get in the way of my helping maximize peoples' rights so they can live the life they choose, then I have no real beef with them - though that doesn't stop me from cheerfully trying to try to nudge their beliefs to place a higher priority on believing things that are consonant with objective physical reality, just as it doesn't stop them from trying to kickstart the 'malfunctioning faith-circuit in my brain'.
 
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sandwiches

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Most of those things could be proven to exist. All you'd have to do is find one and take a picture, and if possible, take something as physical evidence.

But whether or not there are any invisible unicorns (they can't be both pink and invisible) doesn't make a difference to me. And if I ever see a little green man looking for his pot o' gold, no big deal. Whether or not I die believing in these things, it will not affect me any.

I believe in God for very different reasons. Throughout my life, I have seen evidence that my God exists. None of it could be studied in a test tube, but it's just as real to me.

My faith is not just something I believe in, hoping it will save me from death. Although, this is a big part of it, because without the afterlife, all of this is for nothing. But it also affects the way I live. It changes my outlook on life, it changes the way I spend my time, and it affects my priorities and what I value.

I have the right to believe in whatever I want to believe in. I don't have to accept your standards, and I don't have to put rationality at the top of my list of concerns. In my opinion, the only life worth living is one walked by faith, not by sight (rationality, certainty, science, the senses).

So, you're saying that you've never sensed or felt God, then. Interesting.
 
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GrayAngel

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(It's at least as possible as any being containing any other seemingly contradictory characteristics. And the proponents of the IPU even have an entertaining .PNG image, with two layers; one defines an image of a pink unicorn, the other defines an alpha channel that makes the unicorn effectively transparent - I don't have enough posts yet to offer a link, but it's available at the Wikipedia page for the IPU.)

I see. So the invisible pink unicorn thing is yet another attempt at atheism to take a stab at religion based on a strawman argument. I guess the flying spaghetti monster wasn't enough.

None of God's characteristics are contradictory. Only someone who's so passionately against the idea could say so.

God can't create a rock so big He couldn't lift it. Duh. If you take two things that aren't compatible and try to stick them together, you come to an impossibility. Does this reflect a contradiction. No.

There are many marvelous artists in the world. If you asked them to, they could draw, paint, or sculpt anything. But would you ask them to draw a square circle? No? Then I guess they can't draw anything because they can't do the impossible.

Pascal's wager is highly overrated.

Another doubt-based opinion. "Pascal's wager" as they call it, is a real risk. Pretending or ignoring the possibility will not help anyone. Doing so is to volunteer to be on the losing team.

If there is no God, when we die, we're all in the same boat anyway. If we're right, then we're not.

There's nothing to gain from atheism. My life is not enslaved by my religion, it is enriched by it. Even if I were wrong, "liberating me" from my beliefs would only do me harm.

The belief that the only viable philosophy if there's a lack of (post-life) immortality is nihilism is astonishingly common - but is also highly suspect. I want my close family members to continue to have good lives after I die; I want humanity (or sentient life in general) as a whole to avoid extinction after I die; and just because I won't necessarily be around to help out with that doesn't mean that such things don't matter to me while I'm alive.

(And, of course, there's always the transhumanist/singularitian viewpoint. In 25 years, the rate of increase in technology may reach a tipping point in which peoples' expected lifespans start increasing at at least one year per year. Or, there's a theory that suggests a sufficiently advanced computer in the future, which may be able to create a simulation of past events with enough fidelity to create new copies of everyone who's ever lived - and when they die in the simulation, to preserve their mind-states and allow them to continue running in new environments. I've recently been thinking about theories of identity, such as who (if anyone) is really 'you' if an identical copy of you is made; even without a supernatural afterlife, it's possible that some version of 'me' will care very much about the legacy I leave after I die.)

If there is no afterlife, then when you die, you won't be able to care about your family anymore. And when they die, and eventually the whole world will pass away, then nothing will be remembered. The end result will be the same no matter what we do.

Even if we could create a computer version of ourselves, that technology would not last forever. This planet will not always be habitable. We will never be able to escape our own solar system, so when our planet is gone, so are we.

On the other hand, if there is an afterlife, then everything we do matters. Nothing will be forgotten, and every event has an never ending chain of events attached to it.

My opinion isn't quite the opposite. I have chosen, as my ethical standard, "the preservation and promotion of sentient life". (And I sometimes throw in, "especially my own", depending on the phase of the moon.) As long as peoples' faith doesn't get in the way of my helping maximize peoples' rights so they can live the life they choose, then I have no real beef with them - though that doesn't stop me from cheerfully trying to try to nudge their beliefs to place a higher priority on believing things that are consonant with objective physical reality, just as it doesn't stop them from trying to kickstart the 'malfunctioning faith-circuit in my brain'.

No one has a "faith-circuit" in their brain, but our genes may affect how religious we are, based on twin studies.

So, you're saying that you've never sensed or felt God, then. Interesting.

I never said that.

Throughout my life, I have seen evidence that my God exists. None of it could be studied in a test tube, but it's just as real to me.

I have experienced God a number of times. On rare occasion, I've even experienced a few miracles. But when the world tries to tell me that it's all in my head, it takes some faith not to cave in and believe them.
 
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sandwiches

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.
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I never said that.

Throughout my life, I have seen evidence that my God exists. None of it could be studied in a test tube, but it's just as real to me.

I have experienced God a number of times. On rare occasion, I've even experienced a few miracles. But when the world tries to tell me that it's all in my head, it takes some faith not to cave in and believe them.

So, your life is not worth living then?
 
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