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What do you think about pi - should it exist?

Do you think pi should exist?

  • Yes.

  • No.


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Washington

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is geometry something that God can change? Geometry seems to be on the same level as logic - unchangeable. What do you think?
Well, I don't believe in a god, so everything I say about him is in the context of the belief of others, which on this site is the Christian god. And, because Christians claim their god is omnipotent, I figure part of that ability would be to create whatever kind of universe he wanted. That when he created ours he could just as well have made it so that pi = 3.00000000000000. . . . And if he wanted to, he could change the present universe. Of course, if one wants to limit god's ability to do what he wants, then that's another story, which I don't believe would have room for an omnipotent god.



RecoveringPhilosopher said:
anyone remember the formula to find the surface area of a sphere?
Surface area of a sphere = 4 π r[sup]2[/sup]
 
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Gottservant

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<scratches head>

That's an excellent point about the nature of the sphere or circle affecting the calculation of pi. However, I would rather shift the onus of perfection from God to man. It is man that creates problems that abuse the possibility of various functions (and it is man that then idolizes his creation as real when it is not).

Take pi, that abuses the possibility of "divide". It is based on the mistaken conception that 22 and 7 are compatible in a "divide" context when they are not. Signs are not inexhaustable, so the functions they represent are therefore not inexhaustible either.

When you try to do something like divide 22 by 7, you are attempting to exhaust the principle function and that is a sin. If you do not avoid this sin, the consequence is slavery to sin (John 8:34) - in this - and consequently there will be other mathematical errors where divide is seen as a resource when it is not.

I am sorry I cannot reply with more robust mathematical exegesis but I am limited to the principle logic at stake (by my own lack of ability). I suppose questions that might arise from what I am saying might be:
- how many times can you use a sign?
- does how many times you can use a sign differ from person to person?
- what is the right way to share maths if there is no constant as to how we operate using it?
- does this mean maths is subjective and what does that mean?
Naturally, these questions are only as good as your dedication to them (and for the more mathematically minded they are probably insufficient).

"What does this talk of mathematical sin save me from?" you might well ask. My hope is that it will save people from obsession with things like pi and the idolization of man's limited knowledge of the universe. With that out of the way, we may begin to approach a more agreeable (and therefore productive) perspective of what God has created for us to use in His sight.
 
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anonymous1515

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Heh, I get excited when I see that Gottservant made a new post!

I am sorry I cannot reply with more robust mathematical exegesis but I am limited to the principle logic at stake (by my own lack of ability). I suppose questions that might arise from what I am saying might be:
- how many times can you use a sign?
- does how many times you can use a sign differ from person to person?
- what is the right way to share maths if there is no constant as to how we operate using it?
- does this mean maths is subjective and what does that mean?
Naturally, these questions are only as good as your dedication to them (and for the more mathematically minded they are probably insufficient).

I don't understand a single one of your questions. Are you asserting that there is a limit on the number of times somebody can divide a number?

And no, math is not subjective. Peoples' understanding of it is, as clearly demonstrated by this thread.
 
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Washington

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Gottservant said:
That's an excellent point about the nature of the sphere or circle affecting the calculation of pi. However, I would rather shift the onus of perfection from God to man. It is man that creates problems that abuse the possibility of various functions (and it is man that then idolizes his creation as real when it is not).
Take pi, that abuses the possibility of "divide". It is based on the mistaken conception that 22 and 7 are compatible in a "divide" context when they are not. Signs are not inexhaustable, so the functions they represent are therefore not inexhaustible either.
When you try to do something like divide 22 by 7, you are attempting to exhaust the principle function and that is a sin. If you do not avoid this sin, the consequence is slavery to sin (John 8:34) - in this - and consequently there will be other mathematical errors where divide is seen as a resource when it is not.
I am sorry I cannot reply with more robust mathematical exegesis but I am limited to the principle logic at stake (by my own lack of ability). I suppose questions that might arise from what I am saying might be:
- how many times can you use a sign?
- does how many times you can use a sign differ from person to person?
- what is the right way to share maths if there is no constant as to how we operate using it?
- does this mean maths is subjective and what does that mean?
Naturally, these questions are only as good as your dedication to them (and for the more mathematically minded they are probably insufficient).
To be honest, I have no idea of what you are talking about. Sorry.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Take pi, that abuses the possibility of "divide". It is based on the mistaken conception that 22 and 7 are compatible in a "divide" context when they are not.
That makes no mathematical sense, and is unrelated to the definition of pi.
Pi is simply the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter. It has been proven that pi is the same for all circles. Moreover, pi occurs in pretty much every field of mathematics and physics, and is present in Euler's astoundingly elegant identity:

EulerId.jpg

Nevertheless, pi is not the division of 22 by 7. It can be approximated by this, but it certainly isn't calculated by it.

Signs are not inexhaustable, so the functions they represent are therefore not inexhaustible either.

When you try to do something like divide 22 by 7, you are attempting to exhaust the principle function and that is a sin. If you do not avoid this sin, the consequence is slavery to sin (John 8:34) - in this - and consequently there will be other mathematical errors where divide is seen as a resource when it is not.
You shove mathematical nonsense with religious idiocy with an audible clang. Please stop, if only for my ear's sakes.

I am sorry I cannot reply with more robust mathematical exegesis but I am limited to the principle logic at stake (by my own lack of ability). I suppose questions that might arise from what I am saying might be:
- how many times can you use a sign?
I can only assume you mean '+' and '-' as 'signs' to denote positive/negative -ness. Even if that is the case, the question makes no sense. Plus and minus signs are just used to augment pre-existing symbols to represent related quantities (for instance, there is no one symbol for the quantity -7, but, as I just demonstrated, it can be represented as the negative of 7, which does have its own symbol).

So perhaps the answer is: formally, zero. Practically, one.

- does how many times you can use a sign differ from person to person?
No. Logic is invarient to the person.

- what is the right way to share maths if there is no constant as to how we operate using it?
Mathematics is the logic of numbers, shape, pattern, etc. There is no 'right' way of doing it, anymore than there is a 'right' way of eating a packet of crisps.

- does this mean maths is subjective...?
No.

Naturally, these questions are only as good as your dedication to them (and for the more mathematically minded they are probably insufficient).
To the mathematically inclined, they make no sense.

"What does this talk of mathematical sin save me from?" you might well ask. My hope is that it will save people from obsession with things like pi
Ah, I see. Pi is not the object of idol-worship, so you can rest easy on this one.

and the idolization of man's limited knowledge of the universe.
Who idolises humanity's sphere of knowledge (in the sinful, Biblically-condemned sense of the word idolatry, of course).

With that out of the way, we may begin to approach a more agreeable (and therefore productive) perspective of what God has created for us to use in His sight.
Call me short-sighted, but isn't it more prudent to justify the existance of your god first?
 
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Washington

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Ok but there is clearly something irrational about it...

How do you identify your sanity in the face of irrational numbers?
By recognizing that the identification of my sanity is not dependent on the rationality of numbers.

I hope you're not confusing the irrationality of some numbers with irrational human functioning. The two uses of the word are not the same.
 
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The Nihilist

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<scratches head>

That's an excellent point about the nature of the sphere or circle affecting the calculation of pi. However, I would rather shift the onus of perfection from God to man. It is man that creates problems that abuse the possibility of various functions (and it is man that then idolizes his creation as real when it is not).

Take pi, that abuses the possibility of "divide". It is based on the mistaken conception that 22 and 7 are compatible in a "divide" context when they are not. Signs are not inexhaustable, so the functions they represent are therefore not inexhaustible either.

When you try to do something like divide 22 by 7, you are attempting to exhaust the principle function and that is a sin. If you do not avoid this sin, the consequence is slavery to sin (John 8:34) - in this - and consequently there will be other mathematical errors where divide is seen as a resource when it is not.

I am sorry I cannot reply with more robust mathematical exegesis but I am limited to the principle logic at stake (by my own lack of ability). I suppose questions that might arise from what I am saying might be:
- how many times can you use a sign?
- does how many times you can use a sign differ from person to person?
- what is the right way to share maths if there is no constant as to how we operate using it?
- does this mean maths is subjective and what does that mean?
Naturally, these questions are only as good as your dedication to them (and for the more mathematically minded they are probably insufficient).

"What does this talk of mathematical sin save me from?" you might well ask. My hope is that it will save people from obsession with things like pi and the idolization of man's limited knowledge of the universe. With that out of the way, we may begin to approach a more agreeable (and therefore productive) perspective of what God has created for us to use in His sight.

Ridiculous suggestions in the post:
1. Doing math poorly is sinful.
2. Our math now is somehow inadequate. We have mastered the atom, cured diseases, and walked on the moon, and we did it all with pi.
3. Everything else.
 
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Gottservant

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2. We have mastered the atom

...which was used to destroy a city.

cured diseases

...for which the cure already existed in God (through prayer). I digress to point out that while God does not prohibit learning a cure, He does not communicate it with numbers like pi.

, and walked on the moon

...the point of which was.... what?

, and we did it all with pi.

Question: When did God ever talk to you using pi?

I will help you out on this point and ask God for a dream about pi... just to make sure His point of view is communicated on this.
 
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Washington

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Can you calculate pi forever?
That's pretty much a definition of an irrational number, so the answer would be, yes.



Definition of irrational

ir·ra·tion·al [ i rásh&#601;n'l, i ráshn&#601;l ]​

adjective

Definition:

1. lacking in reason: contrary to or lacking in reason or logic​

2. lacking logical thought: unable to think logically​

3. unable to think clearly: lacking the normal ability to think clearly, especially because of shock or injury to the brain​

4. mathematics containing irrational number: describes a mathematical expression that contains an irrational number

5. poetry containing metric irregularity: describes an irregularity in the meter of a classical poem, usually where there is a long foot instead of a short one​



noun (plural ir·ra·tion·als)

Definition:

1. irrational person: an unclear or illogical thinker

2. mathematics
Same as irrational number


ir·ra·tion·al num·ber

Definition:

real number that is not rational: any real number that cannot be expressed as the exact ratio of two integers, e.g. &#8730;2 and &#960;
 
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Wiccan_Child

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How not? Can you calculate pi forever?
Pi is an irrational number, so by definition has an infinity of digits after its initial '3'. We have formulae that exactly equal pi, but evaluating them exactly takes an eternity.

I still don't see what pi has to do with anything. It's a number, nothing more.
 
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anonymous1515

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...which was used to destroy a city.
Which is also used to generate clean energy as an alternative to coal and oil.

...for which the cure already existed in God (through prayer).
Ah, still convinced God will clear up all that ails you? That's too bad. Take a look at this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI
Also, haven't you seen any of the results of prayer studies? Not looking so good...

...the point of which was.... what?
Eh, maybe the moon landing wasn't so useful. Space travel could be though.

Question: When did God ever talk to you using pi?
God's never talked to me using anything.

I will help you out on this point and ask God for a dream about pi... just to make sure His point of view is communicated on this.
I wouldn't do that if I were you...after all, pi is sinful.
 
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The Nihilist

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...which was used to destroy a city.



...for which the cure already existed in God (through prayer). I digress to point out that while God does not prohibit learning a cure, He does not communicate it with numbers like pi.



...the point of which was.... what?



Question: When did God ever talk to you using pi?

I will help you out on this point and ask God for a dream about pi... just to make sure His point of view is communicated on this.

Faith hasn't got a great track record on innovation. If God didn't want us to do math, he shouldn't have made it so useful.
 
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morningstar2651

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Pi is an irrational number, so by definition has an infinity of digits after its initial '3'. We have formulae that exactly equal pi, but evaluating them exactly takes an eternity.

I still don't see what pi has to do with anything. It's a number, nothing more.
Some philosophers get their panties all bunched up over numbers. Pythagoreans are a good example, as is the response to transfinite numbers.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-c...UXqq8rc&sig=uO6fCRNZqry46G51upSVkJZMqsA&hl=en
 
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Nathan Poe

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...which was used to destroy a city.

Two cities, actually, Which is exactly what we mastered it to do.

...for which the cure already existed in God (through prayer).

"Keep praying until you die" does not a cure make.

I digress to point out that while God does not prohibit learning a cure, He does not communicate it with numbers like pi.

He also didn't communicate it through antibiotics, and yet they work.

...the point of which was.... what?

Prayer alone will "cure" you right into the ground. Pretty compelling point, IMHO.

Question: When did God ever talk to you using pi?

When did God ever talk of wearing polyester?

I will help you out on this point and ask God for a dream about pi... just to make sure His point of view is communicated on this.

Are dreams your usual means of communicating with God? That would explain a lot...
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Some philosophers get their panties all bunched up over numbers. Pythagoreans are a good example, as is the response to transfinite numbers.
They're in the minority :p. It's like New Agers getting all excited by the observed effect in quantum mechanics (see: 'What The Bleep Do We Know'). Quantum mechanics is a lot of things, but it doesn't let you channel a 35,000 year old Atlantean deity :doh:.
 
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