What do you need to know about me...

[InkBlott]

MY DEAR FRIEND,

CHANGE YOUR MIND?

ephraim

No. I've begun training for a new job. It's taking up most of my energy, so I've not been posting much.

 

[Digit]

What do you need to know about me in order to share your faith?

If I can, I'll answer any questions, but I'm interested in what you feel you need to know and why.

Hey InkBlott, I don't need to know anything in particular. The forum is for non-Christians who are interested in Christianity and wish to talk to Christians about it, so the desire part, is on your side.

 

[andreha]

Hey Inkblott

One thing about Christianity, that I absolutely adore is the fact the Spirit of God comes to dwell within us. He shows us love and kindness, and teaches us. He is there for us to help and strengthen us whenever we need it. It's the one thing that separates Christianity from everything else. It is the only way to have a warm, loving relationship with a very real living God. It's a special kind of love that no human being can ever hope to receive without Him. He has been protecting and teaching me for such a long time now. And He is such an awesome friend to have. He saved my life so many times, when I could have been killed. And when I need help, I just need to ask to receive it. And it's not like I'm this perfect man. No ways. I do make mistakes, like everybody else - but He loves me regardless. And that is awesome.

 

[InkBlott]

Dear-to-God-one

Although I do not join you in a belief in God, I do feel a sibling kinship with my fellow human beings and recognize that we are each dear as such, so I thank you for your kind salutation.

I also thank you for your patience in awaiting my reply. I've spent the last month training in a new job while adapting to working from 7:30 pm to 6:00 am. The experience has been quite consuming. Your last post has been on my mind off and on during the intervening time. I've meant all along to reply as you've touched on an aspect of the Christian experience that has troubled me.

Your difficulties, my dear brother, lie, as mentioned before, in the fact that you reside in your mind--a spiritual desert and a wasteland in and of itself.

God, on the other hand resides, in the Person of His indwelling Holy Spirit, in your Heart--assuming, of course, that you have cleansed the Temple of your Heart and invited Him in.

I take it that in referring to the heart you are not referencing the organ that pumps our blood (obviously) nor (less obviously) strictly one's feeling self. Correct? One's heart, as I understand the term, is one's experience of one's self-hood in its entirety. As such it would include a full and comprehensive communication between that which is visceral, that which is thought, that which is feeling, and that which is intuition.

If I understand Christ's discourse in the upper room in the Gospel of John, one prepares one's heart to becomes a place in which Christ might dwell in fellowship with the Father by loving. In fact, this is all that is required. Even Peter who would deny him, Thomas who would doubt him, and Phillip who longed for the sorts of mystical experiences he had imagined would be forthcoming but in reality were not, had no reason to fear in regard to that indwelling as long as they were able to love.

Grokking the Kingdom is in fact grokking love both on a cosmic scale and a deeply personal level. At least this is what I have imagined and hoped of Christianity over the years, an admittedly broken hope of late.

Introverts are somewhat more interesting persons than they may appear to be on first blush. One of the reasons I guard my emotions so carefully is not because my feeling self is arid. Quite the contrary. My emotions are quite easily aroused. I find that most religious ceremonies easily overwhelm me with the sort of broad and sweeping manipulation of the emotions that is apparently required to pique the responses of the more extroverted participants. I hardly find spiritual enlightenment or a sense of indwelling though the one-sided pushing and pulling of my emotions. It is more like being pummeled until my one overriding desire is escape.

As the eyes of your mind see the material reality around you, so the Eyes of your Heart likewise perceive the equally real Spiritual Reality residing within you--"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you."(Luke 17:20,21)

Agreed, though I think the Gospels as written contain a watered-down realization of this truth.

The trick, as has been taught from the beginning, is to bring the mind into the Heart to see--albeit as in a mirror darkly--the whole picture in which all of God's Truth is reveiled and all questions are answered--some sooner, some later, depending on your needs.

The narrow gate spoken of in Matthew 7 is an inward one, if I understand it correctly, one so narrow that one can pass through it only if one is entirely unburdened. There is nothing that we can carry with us into enlightenment. We must pass through as infants through the birth canal, like a key slipping through a lock.

Residing in one's mind is a lonely occupation and a dead-end street!

For an extrovert, I suppose it would be. For an introvert, being pushed unrelentingly into the mad jangling of the world is the loneliest experience possible. For an introvert, true fellowship is a delicate thing that should not be bruised. Our more boisterous friends would be alarmed if they could truly understand how often they snatch that fellowship from us and leave us lonely in the midst of their noise and clanging, and how often out of love for them we allow them to do so.

 

[InkBlott]

Hey InkBlott, I don't need to know anything in particular. The forum is for non-Christians who are interested in Christianity and wish to talk to Christians about it, so the desire part, is on your side.

The word "exploring" implies that the experience might be somewhat interactive. If I am wrong about this, it is not my first misunderstanding surrounding the Christian faith. I suppose that if Christianity is merely a series of soundbites then all that is required or desired of me is that I stand still long enough for you to deliver them.

It would explain a lot.

 

[InkBlott]

Hey Inkblott

One thing about Christianity, that I absolutely adore is the fact the Spirit of God comes to dwell within us. He shows us love and kindness, and teaches us. He is there for us to help and strengthen us whenever we need it. It's the one thing that separates Christianity from everything else. It is the only way to have a warm, loving relationship with a very real living God. It's a special kind of love that no human being can ever hope to receive without Him. He has been protecting and teaching me for such a long time now. And He is such an awesome friend to have. He saved my life so many times, when I could have been killed. And when I need help, I just need to ask to receive it. And it's not like I'm this perfect man. No ways. I do make mistakes, like everybody else - but He loves me regardless. And that is awesome.

Thank you for telling me about your experiences. I'm afraid mine have differed.

 

[Digit]

The word "exploring" implies that the experience might be somewhat interactive. If I am wrong about this, it is not my first misunderstanding surrounding the Christian faith. I suppose that if Christianity is merely a series of soundbites then all that is required or desired of me is that I stand still long enough for you to deliver them.

It would explain a lot.

I more meant that there needs to be something to go on, why did you post here in the first place for instance? Is there something you wished to know about or did you want to know something specifically from us or me in this case?

 

[PT Calvinist]

Why don't you believe in God again?

 

[CRfan]

Hello InkBlott
I haven't been on for awhile myself, and I will be gone a few days again. I'm concerned InkBlott that you may be basing what you believe on your feelings and your outlook, rather than what is really in the Bible. I understand it could be confusing about the, "Go and sin no more" in the Bible. Jesus had the power to forgive sins, and sinning no more is the goal of people who belong to the Lord. The Bible also makes it clear that all people (outside of Christ Himself) sin. It is Jesus who came to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. For those who have repented from sin and believed on Jesus as the full atonement for their sin and believed in His resurrection from the dead and have yielded to Christ as their Lord...they will one day be free from sin in Heaven.
I know that people can go to Christian school and not really be Christians, and some Christian schools are more in name only.
I don't mean to be negative toward you in any way, but I'm wondering if you might have a bit of OCD about your feelings about the Bible? Maybe you don't have it, but I was just wondering. It's good if you can listen to the Bible, if that makes it easier for you.
As far as what you said to others about people being treated as less than human...
Jesus was a friend to and showed love to those who others would consider animals. As far as terminology of calling people other things, well I'm sure you can understand metaphors as a part of speech.
I don't believe people in Heaven will be spending all their time looking at the suffering of people who rejected Christ and are in hell. People who are true believers in Heaven will be full of joy and having fellowship with others as well as the Lord, etc.. People like to judge Christ, because He doesn't choose to rescue every sinner who chooses to live in sin and rebellion forever.
The wonder is that He would save anyone!
That He would love and rescue sinners who hate Him is a mercy, but He is also holy and just and sin must be punished. Jesus died for sins He didn't commit. He never sinned, and that is why He was the perfect sacrifice.
I long for you to understand the Truth about Jesus, but until you see your sin you will not see your need. God loved humans enough to humble Himself to become a human and suffer like a human, and more than that He became the ultimate sacrifice taking punishment for sins He never committed! Add to that, that He did this for enemies!
Well, this is long enough for this post. I so long for you to have the blinders taken off that I think you are feeling. Satan doesn't want you to believe. He wants you to get sidetracked and back off. It is easier for you to want to escape. If God is calling you, run to Him. The way is narrow, meaning that there is only one way to God...through Jesus. Seeking is nice, but finding is better. Keep seeking. Keep reading the Bible. The Gospels are part of God's inspired Word. Romans would be good to read for you. I plan to pray for you today. Don't give up!

 

[InkBlott]

I more meant that there needs to be something to go on, why did you post here in the first place for instance? Is there something you wished to know about or did you want to know something specifically from us or me in this case?

I think it is safe to say that I am more than passingly familiar with the basic tenets of Christianity and have a good understanding of what orthodox Christianity (with a little "o") entails. So, no, I don't have a question that I can articulate in a sentence or two. If all that is available to me in the way of exploring Christianity is that I stand still while someone delivers ready-made soundbites that I have heard many times before, then I see little point in engaging. Of the questions I do still entertain about Christianity, they consist of the sorts that would require either a rather scholarly study on my part (and though CF might once have been a good springboard for such a thing it is no longer) OR (and this is why I have returned) an interaction that conveys by its nature an experience of Christianity.

This is why it seemed good to me to begin by finding out what sorts of questions I would be asked by those who might be preparing to explore Christianity with me--to share their faith as it were. I suspected that while I was telling you about myself and perhaps giving you important information that would help you know how to approach me and what might need to be said, I would be learning something truly interesting about Christianity by means of the nature of your questions.

What I have learned is that for the most part the Christians that frequent this forum really have nothing in particular they want or need to know about the visitors here. This might lead me to conclude that the sharing of faith is perhaps a more rote business than I imagined. I suppose there are those who come here with a laundry list of questions to ask and who, having received their answers from whomever cares to provide them, are instantly satisfied and happy to make some sort of decision for or against committing to the Christian faith based on those answers.

I am not that sort of person. I have understood from Erwin on down (when Erwin owned this site) that I am not the kind of non-Christian who is desired as a visitor here, being deeply skeptical and not easily satisfied with facile answers to difficult questions. I have been, in topics on this website, called a dog, a swine, a wolf, demon possessed, and the equivalent to an AIDS virus wanting to find my way into God's bloodstream (among other things), not because I had insulted the Christian faith but because I longed for greatness from it, transcendence, enlightenment, something truly saving. I waded through all this looking for those who might stand beside me before the hard questions and study them with me. In the end, the name-calling won out and I left for a year.

I don't mean to lay all of this at your feet, as that would not be fair. You've done none of the above. I do appreciate you replying to me topic and I thank you for that. May I ask something about you, since it seems that I am required to ask questions rather than invite them: why did you enter my topic? Why did you reply to my OP?

 

[InkBlott]

Why don't you believe in God again?

A question!!! (And a good one.)

May I take it that your "again" is rhetorical? I've scanned through this topic and can't find where we've discussed this previously, but perhaps you are referring to a discussion elsewhere that I do not remember.

At any rate, I am happy to reply.

The term "God" is an interesting one to attempt to define. In the spirit of the second commandment, I find those descriptions of God which can be articulated to be unworthy of worship--graven idols as it were. Most of our ideas of God are actually fragments of human nature, or of something we have observed or felt, blown up into vast proportions. This isn't surprising as the Self and that which our senses convey is truly all we know. If we attempt to envision the truly "other" (which is the definition of "holy") we end up with the sorts of tortured imaginings that open the book of Ezekiel. If we attempt to allow our thoughts to transcend, we end up with a Gordian knot of incompatible omni's.

One finally ends with silence on the subject, which is where I have landed. I have no definition of God: no mental image, no words, no expectations to hang upon the word. It is an absurd term, in the final analysis. I am not an agnostic, as one must define one's terms in order to arouse me to agnosticism regarding a claim.

I come to Christianity as an atheist (or non-theist if one requires a softer-sounding term), which puts the Christian faith to some rather interesting tests.

Thank you for the question.

 

[InkBlott]

Hello InkBlott
I haven't been on for awhile myself, and I will be gone a few days again.

Thank you for your reply. I hope I haven't missed you altogether.

I'm concerned InkBlott that you may be basing what you believe on your feelings and your outlook, rather than what is really in the Bible.

I hope I am taking all three into account.

I am actually quite familiar with the Bible and do know what is really in it, and sometimes even more importantly, what really is not in it. Is there something in particular that you suspect I may not be taking into consideration?

I understand it could be confusing about the, "Go and sin no more" in the Bible. Jesus had the power to forgive sins, and sinning no more is the goal of people who belong to the Lord.

I don't think I am so much confused as to the significance of the admonition to sin no more as I am suspended in the contemplation of what it might signify. If Jesus simply meant to stop doing bad things, then has he said nothing profound or any different from what thousands of others before and after him have said. However, in the context of the entire story of the woman caught in adultery, one gets the sense that he might mean something quite startling by it. Something deeply disarming. Something that may completely re-frame life...

May I suggest that Jesus was not so much exercising power at that moment as he was conveying information regarding the nature of the Kingdom as he envisioned it.

The Bible also makes it clear that all people (outside of Christ Himself) sin. It is Jesus who came to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. For those who have repented from sin and believed on Jesus as the full atonement for their sin and believed in His resurrection from the dead and have yielded to Christ as their Lord...they will one day be free from sin in Heaven.

I think it is possible that looking for atonement for one's sins and yielding to Christ as one's Lord might be mutually exclusive. Jesus had some interesting things to say about sin and righteousness and judgment, but for the most part we are unable to hear him. I think (I hope actually) that what he had to say represents such an extreme departure from what we might have expected that we hardly know how to begin listening to him.

Would you agree that admitting that we might not know quite how to listen to him might be an interesting way to approach the Gospels? I suggest trying it.

I know that people can go to Christian school and not really be Christians, and some Christian schools are more in name only.
I don't mean to be negative toward you in any way, but I'm wondering if you might have a bit of OCD about your feelings about the Bible? Maybe you don't have it, but I was just wondering. It's good if you can listen to the Bible, if that makes it easier for you.

Thank you for the suggestion. I really appreciate it. It's a caring thought. I'm happy enough right now just looking up what I need online.

As to whether my aversion to picking up my Bible is OCD or not, I don't know. I really don't know enough about that affliction to say. I do think my revulsion against the nasty story I was being told when I last held a Bible in my hand is a good thing. I feel I am right to reject that story and the subtle evil it teaches with all my might. However, displacing those feelings of aversion onto the very feel of the Bible itself, as I have, is probably not appropriate.

I'll work through it when I feel sufficiently motivated, I am sure.

As far as what you said to others about people being treated as less than human...
Jesus was a friend to and showed love to those who others would consider animals. As far as terminology of calling people other things, well I'm sure you can understand metaphors as a part of speech.

Metaphors are powerful stuff. Turn them loose in an ill-advised fashion and they can work all sorts of evil. It is possible to teach one's followers to protect themselves against remaining naively vulnerable in dangerous situations without unleashing generations and generations of dehumanizing insults.

I am an atheist. I am not a pig. Christ has too many followers who can't seem to tell the difference.

Whose responsibility is that? The teacher's or the students'?

I don't believe people in Heaven will be spending all their time looking at the suffering of people who rejected Christ and are in hell. People who are true believers in Heaven will be full of joy and having fellowship with others as well as the Lord, etc..

I believe it is a characteristic of Christ's followers that they do not turn from suffering. If the job of Heaven is to transform them into the sorts of people who can, then I am deeply confused.

People like to judge Christ, because He doesn't choose to rescue every sinner who chooses to live in sin and rebellion forever.
The wonder is that He would save anyone!
That He would love and rescue sinners who hate Him is a mercy, but He is also holy and just and sin must be punished. Jesus died for sins He didn't commit. He never sinned, and that is why He was the perfect sacrifice.
I long for you to understand the Truth about Jesus, but until you see your sin you will not see your need. God loved humans enough to humble Himself to become a human and suffer like a human, and more than that He became the ultimate sacrifice taking punishment for sins He never committed! Add to that, that He did this for enemies!

I believe even better of him than this. If there are people in this world who would never give up on teaching an autistic child to tie his shoelaces (and we know there are such people), then it is no wonder to me that Christ would save everyone, or at least if this were not possible would never give up trying. I think, if I understand the rules here at CF, that it is a hanging offense for me to say such a thing. But perhaps, since I am an atheist and know no better, I will be forgiven.

Well, this is long enough for this post. I so long for you to have the blinders taken off that I think you are feeling. Satan doesn't want you to believe. He wants you to get sidetracked and back off. It is easier for you to want to escape. If God is calling you, run to Him. The way is narrow, meaning that there is only one way to God...through Jesus. Seeking is nice, but finding is better. Keep seeking. Keep reading the Bible. The Gospels are part of God's inspired Word. Romans would be good to read for you. I plan to pray for you today. Don't give up!

We all have our blinders. If you can perceive mine and encourage me to take them off, that is a good thing.

As for seeking and finding...

"For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him."

I aspire to having nothing and to having even that taken away...

 

[CRfan]

I'm here now. For those of us who are Christians and when we get to Heaven, we will have more of God's perspective on things. We will then rejoice that His righteousness & justice prevailed (Rev. 18:20...related to Rev. 6:9-11). For Christians also see Revelation 21:4. We will not suffer or be sad in Heaven anymore. Romans 9 will give quite a perspective on God that some people want to try to get around. There is also the side of the coin where people are responsible for the sins they commit. God is compassionate, but He is also Holy & just ...and He has a plan that will bring the most joy to us and the most glory to Him. Hell will not take away Heaven's joy.

Okay, on the subject of Go and sin no more...which means to leave your life of sin. Now I don't know if that woman believed on Him or not, but Jesus was showing compassion by not condemning her. He was being tested to see if He would reject the law of Moses. Only those who hadn't committed that kind of sin could participate in an execution. As long as people are on earth, there is some mercy even to wicked people. There is rain on the evil and the good.

Christians are justified and their sins are forgiven. To continue to have a close relationship to Jesus we confess our current sins to Him. There isn't something meritorious to salvation in that. It's because our hearts long to be close to Jesus with no sin in the way of that relationship. God forgives and cleanses our hearts. He loves us and is compassionate, and those who are truly His He will never let out of His Hand.

His compassion to you is that He is allowing you to see the Truth, but be careful lest you only be hardened or "inoculated." As long as you are alive, from our human perspective there is hope that you will repent and turn to the Lord.
Jesus is Lord and He is Judge whether you believe it or ignore it. A person is the slave of the one he or she serves. With Jesus, I have a Savior, a Friend, a chastener to bring me back in love, a Shepherd, and a Compassionate Lord. He provides all I need. He sent His Spirit to help me in my walk with Him and to pray for me what I wouldn't think to pray for myself even. The Spirit reveals the Truth from the Word of God to it. It is spiritually discerned. You can try praying to God that He will open your eyes to discern the Truth from the Bible.
Well, that's enough for now. I think most people really know there is a God. It's just that they don't want to face it or the guilt of sin. Adam and Eve tried to hide from God, but you are only kidding yourself if you think that will work.

 

[InkBlott]

I'm here now. For those of us who are Christians and when we get to Heaven, we will have more of God's perspective on things. We will then rejoice that His righteousness & justice prevailed (Rev. 18:20...related to Rev. 6:9-11). For Christians also see Revelation 21:4. We will not suffer or be sad in Heaven anymore. Romans 9 will give quite a perspective on God that some people want to try to get around. There is also the side of the coin where people are responsible for the sins they commit. God is compassionate, but He is also Holy & just ...and He has a plan that will bring the most joy to us and the most glory to Him. Hell will not take away Heaven's joy.

I am not swayed by supernatural claims. They do, however, tell me important things about the worldview they inhabit. That is why I am willing to discuss things such as heaven or God in the spirit of participating in the myth in order to see where it takes us. The heaven and God you describe here both feel rather callous to me. I do not want to have this God's perspective for more than the split second it takes for me to reject it.

I stand with this God's rejects. I stand with the least of the least. I reject heaven's joys as long as there is a hell.

Okay, on the subject of Go and sin no more...which means to leave your life of sin. Now I don't know if that woman believed on Him or not, but Jesus was showing compassion by not condemning her. He was being tested to see if He would reject the law of Moses. Only those who hadn't committed that kind of sin could participate in an execution. As long as people are on earth, there is some mercy even to wicked people. There is rain on the evil and the good.

Even on wicked people?

Upon what do you base your opinion that Jesus was being tested?

Christians are justified and their sins are forgiven. To continue to have a close relationship to Jesus we confess our current sins to Him. There isn't something meritorious to salvation in that. It's because our hearts long to be close to Jesus with no sin in the way of that relationship. God forgives and cleanses our hearts. He loves us and is compassionate, and those who are truly His He will never let out of His Hand.

His compassion to you is that He is allowing you to see the Truth, but be careful lest you only be hardened or "inoculated." As long as you are alive, from our human perspective there is hope that you will repent and turn to the Lord.
Jesus is Lord and He is Judge whether you believe it or ignore it. A person is the slave of the one he or she serves. With Jesus, I have a Savior, a Friend, a chastener to bring me back in love, a Shepherd, and a Compassionate Lord. He provides all I need. He sent His Spirit to help me in my walk with Him and to pray for me what I wouldn't think to pray for myself even. The Spirit reveals the Truth from the Word of God to it. It is spiritually discerned. You can try praying to God that He will open your eyes to discern the Truth from the Bible.
Well, that's enough for now. I think most people really know there is a God. It's just that they don't want to face it or the guilt of sin. Adam and Eve tried to hide from God, but you are only kidding yourself if you think that will work.

I do not know that there is a God. If there is a God, it is he who is hidden.

I, on the other hand, am right out in the open. I am out in the open, outside the gates, standing by those who are condemned by this world, and longing for the peace that comes from the sort of justice that throws away any scales and measures. There is smoke here and worms feeding on my fellow human beings. It has always been thus but I do not think it need always be thus. I will, therefore, be careful not to allow myself to be inoculated against suffering by ephemeral promised of heaven.

Sometimes I think Christ stands here too. Sometimes I have doubts.

 

[CRfan]

Just to let you know where I got about Jesus being tested by the scribes and the Pharisees about the woman caught in adultery.
John 8:6
"They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground."

I'm sorry you see things about Heaven and Jesus as a myth.

The Bible says in 1 Corinthians 2:14
"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

Jesus was very compassionate on those who others rejected, but He was strong against hypocrites and people who led others astray.

Thinking more about what you said in the past about humans being called animals. I believe that references in the Bible where people are compared to animals ( like sheep, wolves, or you may be referring to Peter's vision?) is just to show characteristics in behavior which people who were familiar with animals will understand.
In Peter's vision, it was to show that the people he thought of as unclean ...like the unclean animals he was seeing and wasn't supposed to eat... could also receive the Gospel and they also received the Holy Spirit.

We were created in God's image, so people are not literally animals.

Just some challenging things to think about for you if you would like:
Who do you think created the universe?
Do you think it just came into being on it's own?
How do you know what's right or wrong, if God has not created a conscience?

The fact that we exist and the world exists shows us there is power that is supernatural. Scientists try to mimic His creation, but they cannot possibly create everything He has made.
Do you think that daylight and nighttime just happened?
Think of the brain and all it's intricacies.
Can we control everything in outer space?
These are just some things that I can see point to the existence of a Creator God. Still, you must see this for yourself.
Isn't it miraculous that someone came and fulfilled prophecies made long before? Well, I know you reject the Bible, but even some things have been written about Him that aren't in the Bible (Jesus).
Some people might reject George Washington ever existed. People do reject the Holocaust. Just because we weren't there ourselves, does that mean everything is a myth? Then how would you even know you or I exist? I would hate to be in a frame of mind that doubted even my own existence.
You can't see Heaven or Hell right now, but that doesn't mean they do not exist. Perhaps you want to reject there is a Hell, because if you admitted there might be one then it would have implications on your life.
You seem to want to think Heaven would not be full of joy for those of us who have believed, so then that makes you feel safe in rejecting it.
What if we are right though (and I trust that we are) ?
What hope do you have?
I would desire you to have the hope that I have.

I can see that you are not really open to considering the Gospel as truth right now. It is sad, but I know that only God can reveal Himself to you. He uses His Word. I will now let others dialog with you if they so choose on this thread.
I have prayed for you. Perhaps one day you will believe.

 

[Digit]

I think it is safe to say that I am more than passingly familiar with the basic tenets of Christianity and have a good understanding of what orthodox Christianity (with a little "o") entails. So, no, I don't have a question that I can articulate in a sentence or two.

Many people say this and I find their knowledge lacking immensely. There is no certification anyone can provide that holds any weight with me, my opinion is formed on their actions and their support of their beliefs alone.

If all that is available to me in the way of exploring Christianity is that I stand still while someone delivers ready-made soundbites that I have heard many times before, then I see little point in engaging. Of the questions I do still entertain about Christianity, they consist of the sorts that would require either a rather scholarly study on my part (and though CF might once have been a good springboard for such a thing it is no longer) OR (and this is why I have returned) an interaction that conveys by its nature an experience of Christianity.

I fear this may undermine your previous point as your previous experiences appear to have formed a bias.

This is why it seemed good to me to begin by finding out what sorts of questions I would be asked by those who might be preparing to explore Christianity with me--to share their faith as it were. I suspected that while I was telling you about myself and perhaps giving you important information that would help you know how to approach me and what might need to be said, I would be learning something truly interesting about Christianity by means of the nature of your questions.

You seem very caught up on the idea of sharing and exploring. The general use of the forum is that non-Christians ask questions about Christianity - that is where the crossover of information occurs. It is not as personal as you seem to feel the subtext makes it out to be.

What I have learned is that for the most part the Christians that frequent this forum really have nothing in particular they want or need to know about the visitors here. This might lead me to conclude that the sharing of faith is perhaps a more rote business than I imagined. I suppose there are those who come here with a laundry list of questions to ask and who, having received their answers from whomever cares to provide them, are instantly satisfied and happy to make some sort of decision for or against committing to the Christian faith based on those answers.

I doubt it. I've only experienced two during my time that have done so. This isn't an area to argue someone into religion, it's an area for someone who is interested in knowing more to ask their questions where the threads will not get sidetracked by debate.

I am not that sort of person. I have understood from Erwin on down (when Erwin owned this site) that I am not the kind of non-Christian who is desired as a visitor here, being deeply skeptical and not easily satisfied with facile answers to difficult questions. I have been, in topics on this website, called a dog, a swine, a wolf, demon possessed, and the equivalent to an AIDS virus wanting to find my way into God's bloodstream (among other things), not because I had insulted the Christian faith but because I longed for greatness from it, transcendence, enlightenment, something truly saving. I waded through all this looking for those who might stand beside me before the hard questions and study them with me. In the end, the name-calling won out and I left for a year.

The only rules people need abide by here are to treat others with respect and kindness. If you were disparaging, insulting, rude, arrogant and offensive then I can see why you would feel unwelcome. The site, in my opinion, has become much better - I too left over a year ago because I identified the negative impact it was having on me. The people who had a lot of the qualities listed above have mostly left, and now we are left with those who can and do actually talk on the same level with each other which is much preferred.

I don't mean to lay all of this at your feet, as that would not be fair. You've done none of the above. I do appreciate you replying to me topic and I thank you for that. May I ask something about you, since it seems that I am required to ask questions rather than invite them: why did you enter my topic? Why did you reply to my OP?

I posted because the title piqued my interest, it was not in the usual vein of the topics around here and I wanted to see what it was about.

You mentioned above, some 'hard' or 'tough' questions - can you venture one so I can try to answer it?

 

[InkBlott]

You've made quite a lengthy reply covering a good deal of ground! I'll try to do it justice.

Just to let you know where I got about Jesus being tested by the scribes and the Pharisees about the woman caught in adultery.
John 8:6
"They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground."

I realized this must be what you meant the next day after I replied. For some reason I thought at first that you meant that God was testing him. I'm not quite sure why I thought so. Sorry about that.

Yes. It was a test. I suspect that the Pharisees had an idea as to what the Proper Thing was to do in such circumstances and that Jesus would say or do something contrary to this Proper Thing. I think the point of the story (or one of the points) is that he didn't meet their expectations. He exceeded them and managed to do something completely disarming. Disarming on several levels. So, I think it would be interesting to approach the text with the question, "How does one disarm sin and the Pharisee's approach to sin (whatever that may have entailed) in one stroke?" I'm not sure I completely grok the answer. Maybe I have an inkling. I don't know. Meanwhile, it doesn't hurt to simply sit with the story and let it work on one from the inside out. Agreed?

I'm sorry you see things about Heaven and Jesus as a myth.

The Bible says in 1 Corinthians 2:14
"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

I've noticed that the use of the work "myth" can elicit a negative reaction from those of conviction. Maybe it would help if I defined my term.

To quote Karen Armstrong: "A myth...is true because it is effective, not because it gives us factual information....If it works...if it forces us to change our minds and hearts, gives us new hope, and compels us to live more fully, it is a valid myth."

Interestingly, a story need not be fictional in order to be elevated to myth. A myth may contain factual information. However, it must go beyond the presentation of the facts in order to be elevated to the realm of myth. It must tell us something, or contain something in the telling, that has the potential to transform us.

I do not believe in a literal heaven and a literal hell. However, the stories we tell ourselves about heaven and hell are compelling and studying them may put us in touch with important truths. Conversely, there are possible negative consequences to a poor telling of the story. That sort of thing matters to me.

Jesus was very compassionate on those who others rejected, but He was strong against hypocrites and people who led others astray.

I like to believe this of him.

Thinking more about what you said in the past about humans being called animals. I believe that references in the Bible where people are compared to animals ( like sheep, wolves, or you may be referring to Peter's vision?) is just to show characteristics in behavior which people who were familiar with animals will understand.
In Peter's vision, it was to show that the people he thought of as unclean ...like the unclean animals he was seeing and wasn't supposed to eat... could also receive the Gospel and they also received the Holy Spirit.

We were created in God's image, so people are not literally animals.

I am referring most pointedly to Matthew 7. I have seen verses pulled out of this mostly magnificent chapter and used to hurt people over and over. They hurt those who cast the insults as deeply (perhaps even more deeply) as it hurts the recipients. I have yet to see them used to the good. It is as if someone took an almost sublime set of teachings and deliberately inoculated them against their own potential.

Just some challenging things to think about for you if you would like:
Who do you think created the universe?
Do you think it just came into being on it's own?

The universe does not seem to me to imply a creator. How it began is an interesting question. I do not know the answer. However, why it began (the implication behind introducing a creator into the story) strikes me as the wrong question. Why is a question that belongs to sentient beings. I can't quite picture "why" existing outside the heads of thinking things. Placing that question at the beginning of the universe strikes me as anachronistic.

How do you know what's right or wrong, if God has not created a conscience?

I think our morals have grown out of human nature and the sheer pragmatism of survival. That which allows us to thrive is moral. That which does not is immoral.

The fact that we exist and the world exists shows us there is power that is supernatural. Scientists try to mimic His creation, but they cannot possibly create everything He has made.
Do you think that daylight and nighttime just happened?
Think of the brain and all it's intricacies.
Can we control everything in outer space?
These are just some things that I can see point to the existence of a Creator God. Still, you must see this for yourself.

The universe is quite a closed off bubble, I'm afraid. It does not seem to show us anything outside of itself, at least not at present. I am moved by daylight and nighttime and the workings of the human brain, but not moved to belief in the supernatural because of them.

I've been studying (a very little bit ) as to how to do proofs. Unless one is able to start out with claims that can be falsified, the most one can hope for is to create a system of interlocking statements that are consistent with one another. I am afraid, my friend, that try as you might, you cannot logic yourself from a fact about the universe into a statement about the supernatural. You can move from one fact about the universe logically into another and you can move elegantly from one supernatural claim to another, but the two do not meet.

Isn't it miraculous that someone came and fulfilled prophecies made long before? Well, I know you reject the Bible, but even some things have been written about Him that aren't in the Bible (Jesus).
Some people might reject George Washington ever existed. People do reject the Holocaust. Just because we weren't there ourselves, does that mean everything is a myth? Then how would you even know you or I exist? I would hate to be in a frame of mind that doubted even my own existence.
You can't see Heaven or Hell right now, but that doesn't mean they do not exist. Perhaps you want to reject there is a Hell, because if you admitted there might be one then it would have implications on your life.
You seem to want to think Heaven would not be full of joy for those of us who have believed, so then that makes you feel safe in rejecting it.
What if we are right though (and I trust that we are) ?
What hope do you have?
I would desire you to have the hope that I have.

Thank you. That is kind that you wish for me to have the same hope that you do.

As for prophesies, there are indeed certain things for which mankind seems to long. I find the poetical parts of the book of Job (the parts that are often mostly ignored in favor of its more well-known prose bookends) to be absolutely pivotal to the Biblical narrative. In it, the particular longing that found its fulfillment for many in the person of Jesus, is first fully articulated. It does not strike me as odd that someone would finally fully grasp that longing, grok its implications, live it and teach about it. This is what I would refer to as enlightenment, and the fact that it rose out of the very traditions that birthed the longing for it does not strike me as odd at all.

Add a little post hoc prophesy mining and the Gospels take their familiar form. I'm not saying that post hoc prophesy mining is a bad thing. It was their tradition and what they were doing was telling Jesus story in a way that grasped its significance. Elevating it. Putting it in a startling new light.

As for questions of being, I don't get too worked up about them. I don't feel terribly compelled to demonstrate my own being. If it's and illusion it's an illusion. The experience of being human is what it is.

As for heaven and hell, let me say one more thing. I am far more interested in whether Jesus' teachings are pragmatic, whether they hold an imperative, whether they are potentially transformative, how I am to understand them and what my role is. These are things that feel real to me.

I can see that you are not really open to considering the Gospel as truth right now. It is sad, but I know that only God can reveal Himself to you. He uses His Word. I will now let others dialog with you if they so choose on this thread.
I have prayed for you. Perhaps one day you will believe.

Is that all that you can see?

Interesting.

If the Gospels are truth, that is only the beginning. No?

 

[InkBlott]

Many people say this and I find their knowledge lacking immensely. There is no certification anyone can provide that holds any weight with me, my opinion is formed on their actions and their support of their beliefs alone.

Fair enough. You may judge my knowledge over time by means of my posts. Most of my previous posts disappeared along with the General Apologetics section, so it may take some time for you to pick up a sense of my knowledge or lack thereof.

I fear this may undermine your previous point as your previous experiences appear to have formed a bias.

I'm not about to insist that I have no bias. Can you tell me what particular bias you feel I am demonstrating?

You seem very caught up on the idea of sharing and exploring. The general use of the forum is that non-Christians ask questions about Christianity - that is where the crossover of information occurs. It is not as personal as you seem to feel the subtext makes it out to be.

I see. I recall their being a forum called "Questions about Christianity." If I remember correctly, it was closed at the same time General Apologetics was, and this forum was opened to allow a different sort of exchange. However, a forum ends up being what the members make of it. Therefore, if those who use this forum do not want to have a personal exchange, I can't force it.

Relegating the discussion of Christianity to question and answer seems to me to make of it a rather ossified and dusty thing, as if it can only be talked about and not lived. Meh. What can I say.

I doubt it. I've only experienced two during my time that have done so. This isn't an area to argue someone into religion, it's an area for someone who is interested in knowing more to ask their questions where the threads will not get sidetracked by debate.

...or discussion it would seem.

The only rules people need abide by here are to treat others with respect and kindness. If you were disparaging, insulting, rude, arrogant and offensive then I can see why you would feel unwelcome. The site, in my opinion, has become much better - I too left over a year ago because I identified the negative impact it was having on me. The people who had a lot of the qualities listed above have mostly left, and now we are left with those who can and do actually talk on the same level with each other which is much preferred.

Can you also see how someone who was not disparaging, insulting, rude, arrogant and offensive might have been made to feel unwelcome?

How would you describe the preferred level which has now been reached?

I posted because the title piqued my interest, it was not in the usual vein of the topics around here and I wanted to see what it was about.

You mentioned above, some 'hard' or 'tough' questions - can you venture one so I can try to answer it?

Of course. What does it mean to say that God is good?

 

[InkBlott]

Many people say this and I find their knowledge lacking immensely. There is no certification anyone can provide that holds any weight with me, my opinion is formed on their actions and their support of their beliefs alone.

Fair enough. You may judge my knowledge over time by means of my posts. Most of my previous posts disappeared along with the General Apologetics section, so it may take some time for you to pick up a sense of my knowledge or lack thereof.

I fear this may undermine your previous point as your previous experiences appear to have formed a bias.

I'm not about to insist that I have no bias. Can you tell me what particular bias you feel I am demonstrating?

You seem very caught up on the idea of sharing and exploring. The general use of the forum is that non-Christians ask questions about Christianity - that is where the crossover of information occurs. It is not as personal as you seem to feel the subtext makes it out to be.

I see. I recall their being a forum called "Questions about Christianity." If I remember correctly, it was closed at the same time General Apologetics was, and this forum was opened to allow a different sort of exchange. However, a forum ends up being what the members make of it. Therefore, if those who use this forum do not want to have a personal exchange, I can't force it.

Relegating the discussion of Christianity to question and answer seems to me to make of it a rather ossified and dusty thing, as if it can only be talked about and not lived. Meh. What can I say.

I doubt it. I've only experienced two during my time that have done so. This isn't an area to argue someone into religion, it's an area for someone who is interested in knowing more to ask their questions where the threads will not get sidetracked by debate.

...or discussion it would seem.

The only rules people need abide by here are to treat others with respect and kindness. If you were disparaging, insulting, rude, arrogant and offensive then I can see why you would feel unwelcome. The site, in my opinion, has become much better - I too left over a year ago because I identified the negative impact it was having on me. The people who had a lot of the qualities listed above have mostly left, and now we are left with those who can and do actually talk on the same level with each other which is much preferred.

Can you also see how someone who was not disparaging, insulting, rude, arrogant and offensive might have been made to feel unwelcome?

How would you describe the preferred level which has now been reached?

I posted because the title piqued my interest, it was not in the usual vein of the topics around here and I wanted to see what it was about.

You mentioned above, some 'hard' or 'tough' questions - can you venture one so I can try to answer it?

Of course. I will begin with the beginning of a question. What does it mean to say that God is good?

 

[ephraimanesti]

Of course. I will begin with the beginning of a question. What does it mean to say that God is good?

MY BROTHER,

Unfortunately, in English most words such as "good" and "love" have lost their meanings and become bland generic mildly positive adjectives--"God is good", "pizza is good", "that was a good movie", "have a good day", etc.

In Greek, the word translated "GOOD", when applied to God--for example in Matthew 19:17)--is agathos--"good as a positive quality (vs. bad), good as a moral quality (vs. evil)". The term is absolute--the ultimate source of these qualities and their most perfect expression. This, of course, is a basic characteristic of God and goes along, obviously, with the primary component of His Being, which translates as "God IS Love" (I John 4:8)--Love being the ultimate good.

A BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim