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InkBlott

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I know I'm late to the party, but my personal study on Matthew 7:6 leads me to believe that the swine and dogs are symbolic to stiff-necked and stubborn enemies of the gospel who are unworthy to have it preached unto them.
A pearl, represents the Gospel. In all logical sense, it wouldn't be reasonable to preach the Gospel, "cast the pearl", before Stiff-necked and stubborn enemies of the Gospel.

Welcome. Thank you for replying.

Would I be correct, then, in assuming that two of the things you would need to know about me before sharing your faith are whether or not I am stiff-necked and whether or not I am an enemy of the gospel?

May I ask, what would mark someone as stiff-necked in your view, and what would mark someone as an enemy of the gospel? How would you tell, theoretically speaking (recognizing that neither of us knows the other), if I were either?

Who is worthy of the gospel?

If someone were unworthy, how would you go about withholding it?
 
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ephraimanesti

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Although I find your interpretation of Matthew 7 less disturbing than most, I have to live day to day with the common perception of this passage that allows those who disagree with my theology to call me dehumanizing names and subject me to the real-life consequences of being thus dehumanized. It gives me no comfort to imagine that the passing down of some twee pure secret teachings is taking place in an unseen citadel of holiness amongst the properly initiated so that I (swine that I am) won't be inadvertently condemned by them.
MY DEAR BROTHER,

Not to be judgmental as the preceeding section of Matthew 7 warns, but those who choose to seek to dehumanize others who do not accept their doctrinal assertions fall far short of our Lord's definition of the character traits requisite for a Christian to possess in order to be worthy of the Name. Anything less is something else!

He should not have said what he said in Matthew 7. He should not have told the stories of separating out mankind, as in Matthew 25, in the manner in which he did. These stories have alienated human against human in his name. It breaks my heart. I cannot tell you how much. I have twisted my mind into knots searching for an apologetic that will allow me to trust the gospels again.
The Scriptures you mention do indeed "separate out mankind"--they separate the Children of God from the children of the evil one. This is a good and necessary thing--the separation of good from evil; weeds from wheat; light from darkness; Love from hate.

This necessity becomes problematic when sinful men take this process of judgment upon themselves rather than leaving it to God, leading to heinous spiritual crimes which run the gamot of those against individuals such as character assassination, up to and including those against mankind such as the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the Crusades, etc. This is why, in Matthew 7, in the paragraph immediately before the "Pearls Before Swine" injunction, our Lord strongly forbides His followers from judging others.

God alone has the Power, Authority, Capability, and Love to judge aright. Given that God's judgment is always correct to the Nth degree, we should be able to trust His Loving--God is, after all, Love--Judgment and it should fill us with comfort and gratitude rather than "twisting our mind into knots". If God's righteous judgment did not exist, what kind of a place would the Universe quickly become? Spiritual anarchy would quickly create a universal hell. What is there about this necessary process of separating good from evil that throws you into your described state of despair? i would think the opposite would be through if you thought the whole thing through without judging God by human standards.

I take it from your font that you want me to be sure to read this part.
That would indeed be a reasonable assumption.

I have met what seems to me to be the partial Christ of the gospels. I have met a Christ who can be profound one minute yet culturally bound and, it would seem, even a little afraid of his own message the next. I have met a Christ upon whom such depths of human affect have been heaped that his less than perfect revelation seems to be a danger. I do not know how to respond to him, at this juncture, except to be extremely cautious.
The Christ you describe is based upon your own misperceptions of what you have read in Scripture--it is NOT based upon an actual meeting with our Lord Himself after which it is impossible to retain such misconceptions as you describe.

GOD IS LOVE. PERIOD! Nothing in Matthew 7 or 25 or elsewhere on earth or in heaven contradicts this all-encompassing quality of our Lord, God, and Savior. It never deviates; it never changes; it is eternally the same and rendered equally to all. i have met Him face to face and i can testify without hesitation that this is the Gospel Truth. It is most important that God be evaluated based upon Who He is, what His life was about, what He did for us on Good Friday and Easter Sunday, and what He offers to each and every one of us who turn to Him in love, trust, and surrender--NOT upon the actions, attitudes, and pronouncements of some of His so-called "christian" "followers" who are, in reality, nothing of the kind.

I am not sure I understand the question.
My brother--you wrote,
Love in its purest form is subsequently held hostage by, manipulated by and turned to the service of a particularly wretched despair ruled by the fear of one's fellow human being. What do we do with a Christ who prompts us to see to the log in our own eye in one breath and in nearly the next breath encourages us to think of certain others as if they were not quite human? It would have been better to have been left alone as I for one can now barely wrench any love whatsoever free.
Nowhere has Jesus ever done anything which can be construed as "encouraging us to think of certain others as if they were not quite human." The majority of His followers were the cast-offs of society, which SOCIETY considered "not quite human"--the prostitutes, the lepers, the Samaritans, the tax collectors, the demon possessed, etc. What He has told us as Christians is that we MUST Love our enemies with fervor at least equal to the Love we have for our family and friends.

i find this great misperception you have of our Lord heart-breaking, as i stated. It is, at best, a straw man of such colossal magnitude that it blocks out all Truth. At worst, it is an unfair/untrue/unwarranted judgment exactly equal to that rendered by those who engineered our Lord's crucifixion. i CANNOT EMPHASIZE HOW FAR FROM THE TRUTH YOUR PERCEPTION OF JESUS CHRIST IS IN THIS AREA! How can SomeOne be charged with "seeing others as not quite human" when He Lovingly forgave those who were torturing Him to death--certainly an "animal act" of a "sub-human" in my personal sinful estimation!

I am happy to regroup. As a skeptic, I regroup often. I seldom carry orthodoxy to the gospels these days. It's an interesting process to examine them without it. I want nothing more than to see things as they truly are, or as close as my human perceptions and thought processes allow.
"Human perceptions and thought processes" allow very little in the way of TRUE VISION in spiritual matters. Only the eyes of the heart when informed by the Spirit have the capability to discern Truth in these matters. This leads to the "interesting process" you allude to becoming, in essence, merely another mind game--"interesting, perhaps, but certainly neither Light-sheding nor life change-producing.

Your wording seem to convey a sense of urgency. May I suggest we allow gravity to inform the time-line of our inquiries rather than urgency. Time simply does not run out on issues of such importance. My life, and my quest for the truth, will of necessity bleed into that of those who will come after me. I can only hope to carry on my little part with as much integrity as I can muster.
The "urgency" you allude to is engendered by the fact that "a life is a terrible thing to waste." Each minute is precious when spiritual matters are in hand. (Or perhaps this is just in my own head because i am now officially a "senior citizen.")

I hope the fact that I have described my thoughts in strong terms has not unduly distressed you (or placed me on the wrong side of a CF rule). If we cannot place the hard questions then there is little hope of understanding one another, little hope of enlightenment.
i think you misperceive me as you do my Lord. You are not on the "wrong side" of anything nor are you--or can you--"unduly distress" me. (Don't mistake font size for "distress.")

Thank you! True "Peace", i have discovered, is only available from The Prince of Peace--Jesus Christ. As He said, "PEACE I LEAVE WITH YOU; MY PEACE I GIVE YOU. I DO NOT GIVE TO YOU AS THE WORLD GIVES. DO NOT LET YOUR HEARTS BE TROUBLED AND DO NOT BE AFRAID."(John 14:27)

LOVE TO YOU IN CHRIST,
ephraim
 
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andreha

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Heya Inkblot

If I understand correctly, you would like people to share their personal beliefs/experiences around Christianity with you? I'd be happy to oblige. The Lord showed me some truly awesome things in the past 32 years.
 
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ephraimanesti

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Who is worthy of the gospel?

If someone were unworthy, how would you go about withholding it?
MY DEAR BROTHER,

NONE OF US IS "WORTHY" OF THE GOSPEL! OUR UNWORTHINESS IS WHAT MAKES IT THE GOSPEL!

(Sorry for reading your mail. :blush:)

ephraim
 
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InkBlott

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MY DEAR BROTHER,

Not to be judgmental as the preceeding section of Matthew 7 warns, but those who choose to seek to dehumanize others who do not accept their doctrinal assertions fall far short of our Lord's definition of the character traits requisite for a Christian to possess in order to be worthy of the Name. Anything less is something else!

I do like the preceding section of Matthew 7, as you might guess from my sig. We are all made of the same stuff. All circumstances are extenuating.

If only it stood alone, apart from the rest of the chapter.

How horrible that it is, in practical application, eclipsed and modified by verse 6 in a way that darkens its meaning and drains any hope out of it. If successfully not judging can include thinking of one's fellow human beings as swine or dogs, and if this allowance is part of the word of the Christ, then where do I go to recoup my sense of all of mankind's mutual humanity? Of my own humanity? To what higher authority do I now appeal? I can be called a swine and the person calling me thus can rest assured on heavenly authority of not having judged. Swine-likeness becomes an aspect of my very being, no more a thing judged than the redness of an apple being called red.

Do you see my conundrum?

And here's the kicker: my very speaking out against this places me, in many minds, below the line. It makes of me a high-handed, stiff-necked enemy of the Christ. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

The Scriptures you mention do indeed "separate out mankind"--they separate the Children of God from the children of the evil one. This is a good and necessary thing--the separation of good from evil; weeds from wheat; light from darkness; Love from hate.

This necessity becomes problematic when sinful men take this process of judgment upon themselves rather than leaving it to God, leading to heinous spiritual crimes which run the gamot of those against individuals such as character assassination, up to and including those against mankind such as the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the Crusades, etc. This is why, in Matthew 7, in the paragraph immediately before the "Pearls Before Swine" injunction, our Lord strongly forbides His followers from judging others.

God alone has the Power, Authority, Capability, and Love to judge aright. Given that God's judgment is always correct to the Nth degree, we should be able to trust His Loving--God is, after all, Love--Judgment and it should fill us with comfort and gratitude rather than "twisting our mind into knots". If God's righteous judgment did not exist, what kind of a place would the Universe quickly become? Spiritual anarchy would quickly create a universal hell. What is there about this necessary process of separating good from evil that throws you into your described state of despair? i would think the opposite would be through if you thought the whole thing through without judging God by human standards.

God will never be at peace until God reconciles with all that is. There is no away that is so far away that is not within God's awareness. The cosmic Gehenna will always be just outside the gates of the New Jerusalem and its walls of precious stones will never shut out the cries of the lost, the sound of the worm working, or the stench of the smoke from that ill-advised fire that cannot consume what God cannot forget. If Christ cannot go there, if he cannot do his work there, then he is not Christ.

That which I call evil will always look back at me with a human face, with my own face, with the face of Christ thirsty, hungry and shut out of the city. If I ever begin imagining that the face I see is not quite human, then I am lost, and Christ is lost and God is lost as well.

The Christ you describe is based upon your own misperceptions of what you have read in Scripture--it is NOT based upon an actual meeting with our Lord Himself after which it is impossible to retain such misconceptions as you describe.

GOD IS LOVE. PERIOD! Nothing in Matthew 7 or 25 or elsewhere on earth or in heaven contradicts this all-encompassing quality of our Lord, God, and Savior. It never deviates; it never changes; it is eternally the same and rendered equally to all. i have met Him face to face and i can testify without hesitation that this is the Gospel Truth. It is most important that God be evaluated based upon Who He is, what His life was about, what He did for us on Good Friday and Easter Sunday, and what He offers to each and every one of us who turn to Him in love, trust, and surrender--NOT upon the actions, attitudes, and pronouncements of some of His so-called "christian" "followers" who are, in reality, nothing of the kind.


Nowhere has Jesus ever done anything which can be construed as "encouraging us to think of certain others as if they were not quite human." The majority of His followers were the cast-offs of society, which SOCIETY considered "not quite human"--the prostitutes, the lepers, the Samaritans, the tax collectors, the demon possessed, etc. What He has told us as Christians is that we MUST Love our enemies with fervor at least equal to the Love we have for our family and friends.

i find this great misperception you have of our Lord heart-breaking, as i stated. It is, at best, a straw man of such colossal magnitude that it blocks out all Truth. At worst, it is an unfair/untrue/unwarranted judgment exactly equal to that rendered by those who engineered our Lord's crucifixion. i CANNOT EMPHASIZE HOW FAR FROM THE TRUTH YOUR PERCEPTION OF JESUS CHRIST IS IN THIS AREA! How can SomeOne be charged with "seeing others as not quite human" when He Lovingly forgave those who were torturing Him to death--certainly an "animal act" of a "sub-human" in my personal sinful estimation!

You are coming quite close to calling me sub-human in this last paragraph. Perhaps closer than I would like to perceive...

I am tired this afternoon my friend. I am not up to a wall of text in reply.

Just feel with me, I beg you, in light of this paragraph of yours above, some sense of the circular treadmill I find myself exercising.
 
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PT Calvinist

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Welcome. Thank you for replying.
No problem.

Would I be correct, then, in assuming that two of the things you would need to know about me before sharing your faith are whether or not I am stiff-necked and whether or not I am an enemy of the gospel?
Well, it would benefit one greatly, in my opinon, that to have that knowledge of someone, would substantially affect how or if you would preach it to them.

If I'm correct in assuming that you've read atleast one of the Gospels in full length, then you'd see that Caiaphas and the High priests that questioned Jesus got no answers from Him...why? Because, they were enemies of the Gospel, the only thing going through their mind was "If He says He's the Son of God who takes away the sins of the world, He's a heretic and we'll put Him to death." They obviously didn't want to hear the Gospel, therefore they are unworthy.
May I ask, what would mark someone as stiff-necked in your view, and what would mark someone as an enemy of the gospel? How would you tell, theoretically speaking (recognizing that neither of us knows the other), if I were either?
I gave my example above, Caiaphas the High priest, and the council that questioned Jesus.
Who is worthy of the gospel?
I would assume those who aren't stiff-necked stubborn enemies of the Gospel.
If someone were unworthy, how would you go about withholding it
I suppose the same way Jesus did when being questioned...You see, they really didn't care whether He was the Son of God or not, they just wanted to hear Him say so, so that they could ridicule Him and have Him crucified.

I hope this helps.
 
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ephraimanesti

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You are coming quite close to calling me sub-human in this last paragraph. Perhaps closer than I would like to perceive...

Just feel with me, I beg you, in light of this paragraph of yours above, some sense of the circular treadmill I find myself exercising.
MY DEAR BROTHER,

i think your statement above is the key to your misunderstand of Scripture and your mistaking our Loving Lord for a bigot. You indeed appear to be on a "circular treadmill" but perhaps not in the way you imagine.

There was absolutely NOTHING in my paragraph which you reference which could even be remotely construed as me even hinting that i consider you in any way as "sub human." NOTHING! That idea regarding you--or anybody, for that matter--was and is the farthest thing from my mind--just as the negative sentiments you ascribe to our Lord are the farthest thing from His mind.

i think perhaps you need to do some soul-searching to discover where this propensity of yours for judging nonexistent negativity in others--especially God--comes from. May i be forgiven for speaking out of turn, but i believe the source of these kinds of obviously pain-filled false judgments are perhaps based upon negative experiences from your childhood which you are continuing to re-play and re-experience every time you come across something that acts as a trigger for re-experiencing your own personal inner pain. You describe your location as being "IN MY OWN HEAD." This is not a good place for you to remain as it keeps you from seeing things as they REALLY are. Forgive me if i have mis-perceived your unconscious motives, but i honestly don't feel that i am too far off the mark, if at all.

Hopefully, my statement above won't cause you to retreat back behind your castle walls and crank up the drawbridge, but will rather lead to further dialogue on the matter at hand--why you ascribe hateful thoughts to a Loving God. Believe it or not, you are Loved by both God and myself, so hang in here and lets work through this with the Holy Spirit's aid and support!

GOD'S PEACE AND LOVE TO YA,
ephraim
 
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andreha

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I am happy to hear about your experiences. Thank you.

Great stuff - I'll PM you. :)

*edit*

I can't seem to PM you. Perhaps I can send you a friend request - after approving it, it should work. I think...
 
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InkBlott

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Great stuff - I'll PM you. :)

*edit*

I can't seem to PM you. Perhaps I can send you a friend request - after approving it, it should work. I think...

For now I'm not taking any PM's. I've only been back for a short while following a year-long hiatus, so I want to keep my involvement here very simple for the time being.

I'm glad you've had good experiences, though, and am grateful you wanted to share them with me.
 
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InkBlott

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MY DEAR BROTHER,

i think your statement above is the key to your misunderstand of Scripture and your mistaking our Loving Lord for a bigot. You indeed appear to be on a "circular treadmill" but perhaps not in the way you imagine.

Please allow me to clarify that I do not wish to accuse Jesus of being a bigot. Viewed against the background of his time and culture, he was far from it. I simply think that he did not realize his vision fully enough to be followed without question, or to allow his words to become ossified into doctrine.

There was absolutely NOTHING in my paragraph which you reference which could even be remotely construed as me even hinting that i consider you in any way as "sub human." NOTHING! That idea regarding you--or anybody, for that matter--was and is the farthest thing from my mind--just as the negative sentiments you ascribe to our Lord are the farthest thing from His mind.
I apologize for allowing my own rhetoric to get out of hand. My impression is that you truly are a caring person and that you wish to share with me things that you perceive to be of great value. I do appreciate that. Considering that, I've debated with myself as to whether I want to go on defending this my point at this juncture. It may not be particularly important that I do so under these circumstances.

Let me simply say that those who crucified Jesus were certainly doing a horrific thing, yet they were still human. We all have our shadow selves, which we very much would like to project onto others and disown but cannot, and which can be cleverly manipulated in ways we, most of us, would not like to contemplate. The men who did this were our brothers under the skin.

i think perhaps you need to do some soul-searching to discover where this propensity of yours for judging nonexistent negativity in others--especially God--comes from. May i be forgiven for speaking out of turn, but i believe the source of these kinds of obviously pain-filled false judgments are perhaps based upon negative experiences from your childhood which you are continuing to re-play and re-experience every time you come across something that acts as a trigger for re-experiencing your own personal inner pain. You describe your location as being "IN MY OWN HEAD." This is not a good place for you to remain as it keeps you from seeing things as they REALLY are. Forgive me if i have mis-perceived your unconscious motives, but i honestly don't feel that i am too far off the mark, if at all.
I am an introvert. It is not at all dangerous for me to spend time "in my head." It is, on the contrary, ill advised that I spend too much time outside of it. :)

My pain at the insults is not the personal "he hurt my feelings" sort of pain. It is something deeper than that. It is a mournful sense of loss at the rather wonderful perception I had in my head as to what it might mean to become a follower of Christ. To borrow an image from Hind's Feet on High Places, it was as if a seed of love had been planted in my heart. Over time, there were so many hands attempting to pull up that which had grown from the seed, such a relentless litany of insults and vilification toward me and various out-groups, that in the end I myself took hold of it and finished the painful job.

And now, I am attempting to take a somewhat more detached and dispassionate view so as to understand what it is in the Christian mythos that allows for the sort of thing I observed and experienced.

Hopefully, my statement above won't cause you to retreat back behind your castle walls and crank up the drawbridge, but will rather lead to further dialogue on the matter at hand--why you ascribe hateful thoughts to a Loving God. Believe it or not, you are Loved by both God and myself, so hang in here and lets work through this with the Holy Spirit's aid and support!

GOD'S PEACE AND LOVE TO YA,
ephraim
Alright. Let's neither one retreat or crank up any drawbridges.
 
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ephraimanesti

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Please allow me to clarify that I do not wish to accuse Jesus of being a bigot. Viewed against the background of his time and culture, he was far from it. I simply think that he did not realize his vision fully enough to be followed without question, or to allow his words to become ossified into doctrine.
MY DEAR FRIEND,

You are correct that our Lord was not born "realizing His vision fully"--as the incident of His questioning the priests and elders in the Temple as a 12-year-old illustrates.(Luke 2:41-51) At the end of the relating of this incident it states that over the years "Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men."(LUKE 2:51)

However, at the time He turned 30 He was baptised in the Jordan and the Holy Spirit came down and rested upon Him, bringing with it full knowledge of the Mind and Heart of God the Father and the Power to use this knowledge and understanding for His Ministry of teaching, healing, and sacrificial intercession. At this time God the Father stated clearly, "This is my beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased."(Matthew 3:17) God later repeated this statement during the Tranfiguration on Mount Tabor and added, "Listen to Him."(Mark 9:7)

i think from the above that it is obvious that Jesus was fully vested with God's authority to teach absolute Truth, to demonstrate that Truth in His life, and to die and be resurrected that this Truth might be imparted in its totality to every believer by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Contrary views do violence to the Scriptures and to the Christian beliefs and teachings based upon them.

I apologize for allowing my own rhetoric to get out of hand. My impression is that you truly are a caring person and that you wish to share with me things that you perceive to be of great value. I do appreciate that. Considering that, I've debated with myself as to whether I want to go on defending this my point at this juncture. It may not be particularly important that I do so under these circumstances.
There is no apology warranted or necessary. Your beliefs are your beliefs and should not be hidden or denied.

Let me simply say that those who crucified Jesus were certainly doing a horrific thing, yet they were still human. We all have our shadow selves, which we very much would like to project onto others and disown but cannot, and which can be cleverly manipulated in ways we, most of us, would not like to contemplate. The men who did this were our brothers under the skin.
i am not quite sure of your point here. Of course what you say is true! It is, in fact, the basis of the Gospel--"ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."(Romans 3:23) i am just as guilty of our Lord's crucifixion as the Jewish leaders who condemned Him or the Roman soldiers who carried out their wishes.

The wonder and glory of the Gospel is that Jesus lovingly forgave those who condemned and murdered Him just as totally, fully, and GRACEiously as He Loves and forgives us for our sins. We are all, together, beloved and forgiven children of the Living God.

Did i miss your point?

I am an introvert. It is not at all dangerous for me to spend time "in my head." It is, on the contrary, ill advised that I spend too much time outside of it. :)
Introversion, from which i suffer also, is a great handicap given that it can allow false ideas to grow and flourish and be taken for granted without being questioned. It also keeps us from fulling loving fellowship with our God and our brothers and sisters.

There needs to be a balance between the inner and outer!

My pain at the insults is not the personal "he hurt my feelings" sort of pain. It is something deeper than that. It is a mournful sense of loss at the rather wonderful perception I had in my head as to what it might mean to become a follower of Christ.
i strongly suspect that your initial perception was correct and that you have perhaps allowed the darkness to obscure and steal it from you. i am reminded of our Lord's explanation of the "Parable of the sower" where He says, "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the Word of God. Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved."(Luke 8:11, 12)

To borrow an image from Hind's Feet on High Places, it was as if a seed of love had been planted in my heart. Over time, there were so many hands attempting to pull up that which had grown from the seed, such a relentless litany of insults and vilification toward me and various out-groups, that in the end I myself took hold of it and finished the painful job.
What a sad and painful process that must have been. MAY GOD GRANT HEALING FOR WHAT YOU HAVE ENDURED! Our Lord spoke of the fate of those which cause this kind of spiritual destruction, "Jesus said to His disciples: 'Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. So watch yourselves.' "(Luke 17:1-3)

And now, I am attempting to take a somewhat more detached and dispassionate view so as to understand what it is in the Christian mythos that allows for the sort of thing I observed and experienced.
What you have observed and experienced is darkness vainly trying to do battle with Light. It has nothing to do with the "Christian mythos" but is merely part of the spiritual battle which has been going on since the Garden. You are a casuality of this battle--as was our Lord--but your resurrection is waiting as was His. The victory has already been won! DO NOT BE DETACHED AND DISPASSIONATE ABOUT THIS!

Alright. Let's neither one retreat or crank up any drawbridges.
May God grant it be so!

WITH LOVE IN CHRIST,
ephraim
 
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andreha

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For now I'm not taking any PM's. I've only been back for a short while following a year-long hiatus, so I want to keep my involvement here very simple for the time being.

I'm glad you've had good experiences, though, and am grateful you wanted to share them with me.

Hey Inkblott

I posted some testimonies in this thread - more or less at the bottom of thepage. There are a lot more I'd like to post there. :)
 
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InkBlott

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MY DEAR FRIEND,

You are correct that our Lord was not born "realizing His vision fully"--as the incident of His questioning the priests and elders in the Temple as a 12-year-old illustrates.(Luke 2:41-51) At the end of the relating of this incident it states that over the years "Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men."(LUKE 2:51)

However, at the time He turned 30 He was baptised in the Jordan and the Holy Spirit came down and rested upon Him, bringing with it full knowledge of the Mind and Heart of God the Father and the Power to use this knowledge and understanding for His Ministry of teaching, healing, and sacrificial intercession. At this time God the Father stated clearly, "This is my beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased."(Matthew 3:17) God later repeated this statement during the Tranfiguration on Mount Tabor and added, "Listen to Him."(Mark 9:7)

i think from the above that it is obvious that Jesus was fully vested with God's authority to teach absolute Truth, to demonstrate that Truth in His life, and to die and be resurrected that this Truth might be imparted in its totality to every believer by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Contrary views do violence to the Scriptures and to the Christian beliefs and teachings based upon them.


There is no apology warranted or necessary. Your beliefs are your beliefs and should not be hidden or denied.


i am not quite sure of your point here. Of course what you say is true! It is, in fact, the basis of the Gospel--"ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."(Romans 3:23) i am just as guilty of our Lord's crucifixion as the Jewish leaders who condemned Him or the Roman soldiers who carried out their wishes.

The wonder and glory of the Gospel is that Jesus lovingly forgave those who condemned and murdered Him just as totally, fully, and GRACEiously as He Loves and forgives us for our sins. We are all, together, beloved and forgiven children of the Living God.

Did i miss your point?


Introversion, from which i suffer also, is a great handicap given that it can allow false ideas to grow and flourish and be taken for granted without being questioned. It also keeps us from fulling loving fellowship with our God and our brothers and sisters.

There needs to be a balance between the inner and outer!


i strongly suspect that your initial perception was correct and that you have perhaps allowed the darkness to obscure and steal it from you. i am reminded of our Lord's explanation of the "Parable of the sower" where He says, "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the Word of God. Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved."(Luke 8:11, 12)


What a sad and painful process that must have been. MAY GOD GRANT HEALING FOR WHAT YOU HAVE ENDURED! Our Lord spoke of the fate of those which cause this kind of spiritual destruction, "Jesus said to His disciples: 'Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. So watch yourselves.' "(Luke 17:1-3)


What you have observed and experienced is darkness vainly trying to do battle with Light. It has nothing to do with the "Christian mythos" but is merely part of the spiritual battle which has been going on since the Garden. You are a casuality of this battle--as was our Lord--but your resurrection is waiting as was His. The victory has already been won! DO NOT BE DETACHED AND DISPASSIONATE ABOUT THIS!


May God grant it be so!

WITH LOVE IN CHRIST,
ephraim

Thank you for this most positive post.

I think our one point of contention (for the nonce) may be that while we both agree that it is good and proper for me to examine my own thoughts and behavior patterns in relation to the gospel, I also believe it is proper to examine the gospel itself in a critical light. When I see repeated, self-defeating patterns amongst a significant number of Christians, I do not assume that the gospel itself (as passed down to us) is necessarily without blame. I want to know if it has certain flaws embedded in it which have tripped us up generation after generation. I'm a bit of an iconoclast. I do recognize that many Christians are not. I wish there was a way for us all to approach the question together.

I know that my atheism worries some of my theist friends. It worries me much more to contemplate being without a gospel.

(I'm holding my breath as I post this. CF is treating me half the time as if I were IP banned today. Perhaps I am: half banned and half damned. :D )
 
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ephraimanesti

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I think our one point of contention (for the nonce) may be that while we both agree that it is good a proper for me to examine my own thought and behavior patterns in relation to the gospel, I also believe it is proper to examine the gospel itself in a critical light.
MY DEAR FRIEND,

Unfortunately, you seem to be treating these two issues as one!--I.e. the "critical light" you are using contains more "critical" than "light" and is much more subjective than objective in that it has more to do with your "own thought and behavior patterns in relation to the Gospel" than to the realities of the Gospel itself. This is particularly evident in your characterization of the limitations of God's all-consuming sacrificial Love for His children--for example, His alleged relating to some as "subhuman," etc. This, as i mentioned, is a figment of your own imagination and thought processes--both of which stem in large from your own life experiences which, it appears to me, have perhaps been negative.

When HONESTLY examining the Gospel, objectivity is a MUST so that the Word of God gets a fair hearing.

When I see repeated, self-defeating patterns amongst a significant number of Christians, I do not assume that the gospel itself (as passed down to us) is necessarily without blame.
The Gospel is a product of God's infinite perfection and contains no "flaws or blemishes". When these are seen, they are always in the eye of the beholder--specks on our glasses, as it were--and not inherent in the Gospel itself. As Paul puts it, "Every part of Scripture is God-breathed and useful one way or another--showing us truth, exposing our rebellion, correcting our mistakes, training us to live God's way. Through the Word we are put together and shaped up for the takes God has for us."(II Timothy 3:16, 17 [The Message])

I want to know if it has certain flaws embedded in it which have tripped us up generation after generation. I'm a bit of an iconoclast. I do recognize that many Christians are not. I wish there was a way for us all to approach the question together.
My dear friend, it is we ourselves--in our arrogance, rebelliousness, and sinfulness--"which have tripped us up generation after generation." The Gospel, in its perfection, is the only thing which has kept the human race from destroying itself completely and, as we drift farther and farther away from the Gospel-shed light, the darkness comes closer and closer and the end nearer and nearer. Surely this must be evident to your intelligent and enquiring mind?! In your reading of history, in which direction is the human race REALLY heading? Excuse me if i don't see us "evolving towards perfection" but instead see us corporately sliding "into outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."(Matthew 13:42)

I know that my atheism worries some of my theist friends. It worries me much more to contemplate being without a gospel.
To be without the Gospel is to inhabit a living hell because the Gospel is God's lifeline to us and contains distilled access to all of His Light, Life, and Love which He desperately wants to share with us through His Holy Spirit. This sharing by God is the essence of Heaven and contains all the fruits of His Spirit--"Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self-Control". The absence of these is the essence of a living death--the definition of hell.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim
 
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ephraimanesti

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Ephraimanesti, I must ask you: Where is the Archimedean point from which one might view the scriptures, and the gospel in particular, objectively?
MY DEAR FRIEND/BROTHER/FELLOW SEEKER,

Smack dab in the center of our Hearts.

ephraim
 
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ephraimanesti

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Please explain. What is the nature of that location?
Dear-to-God-one,

Your difficulties, my dear brother, lie, as mentioned before, in the fact that you reside in your mind--a spiritual desert and a wasteland in and of itself.

God, on the other hand resides, in the Person of His indwelling Holy Spirit, in your Heart--assuming, of course, that you have cleansed the Temple of your Heart and invited Him in.

As the eyes of your mind see the material reality around you, so the Eyes of your Heart likewise perceive the equally real Spiritual Reality residing within you--"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you."(Luke 17:20,21)

The trick, as has been taught from the beginning, is to bring the mind into the Heart to see--albeit as in a mirror darkly--the whole picture in which all of God's Truth is reveiled and all questions are answered--some sooner, some later, depending on your needs.

Residing in one's mind is a lonely occupation and a dead-end street!

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim
 
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