what do you know about Islam?

[Fuzzy]

There are Goths in Australia. Perhaps you're thinking of the tribe of Germanic peoples known as Goths. But they weren't 'from' Europe either. They settled in Europe. So I don't know what your point is.

Ah, so you're referencing the goth subculture, not the Visigoths and Ostrogoths.

Alright. I have no idea where the Arab goths are. Though I'd hazard a guess there aren't many. I don't know any myself.

Well first off Allah is many gods made into one.. thats like me taking a statue of a duck, a piano, 2 chickens, 6 nails, a picture of a meadow, a candle stick and a wet rock.. put them all in a box and call them Boo-Boo-Cha! Mohamaad said, "I make all the things in the box one and call them Boo-Boo-Cha"

Wow, that's an offensive way of describing a deity. Some of your fellow board members went with "A moon deity who gained popularity thanks to Mohammed's teachings" or something along those lines.

Your "doctrine" is flawed from its very beginning.

Not my god. Just so we're clear. I'm just trying to discuss the OP.

I do not have a "doctrine", a "theory", not even a "religion" ... I have a personal, intimate relationship with GOD.

Good for you. Seriously.

I can break it down a little more for ya.. GOD is our Father (including yours) who knows every hair on our heads who fastened us together and gave us the gift of existance.

Abiogenesis is separate matter from comparing theologies, though I'll agree many religions have a creation story.

Since the first sin of Adam and Eve, people are born sinners. This sin is what separates us from GOD since He is the Most High, Holy of Holy, Absolute Purity, Love, Joy, and the very foundation of Truth.

"Sin," and the state of being a "sinner," are dependent on paradigm.
Though the redemption or absolution of sin could be relevant to an understanding of Islam.

Jesus Christ being born of GOD by GOD makes Him the Son. The Son was born to be the gate to Him. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to Save the world through Him. GOD gave us His Son (GOD's Flesh & Spirit) as a role model...Our Lord & Savior! And wOw! He is a beautiful Lord to follow

You've already mentioned this, and I got your point the first time. My point is, Islam proceeds for the concept that there is ONLY God, and God doesn't need a gateway. Why (to borrow from Montalban) do you limit God by saying God needs a gate?

Jesus as role model - How did Jesus sustain himself? Why tithe? Why work? Why not just wander around, living off the land?

Follow GOD's Chosen line.. Start with Abraham, follow Isaac (the son of GOD's promise) down the line to King David.. all the way to Mary (the virgin mother of Jesus through Mary's father!) Also Solomon (King David's Son) leads to Joseph (Virgin Mary's Husband). And of course you have Jesus.. born from Virgin and GOD!

Matthew 1:1-1:18 covers Joseph's geneaology. Where do you get Mary's from?

A 52 year old man raping a 9 year old girl.. is immoral, murder is immoral, lying is immoral... Mohamaad is Immoral and ISLAM does not have a gate.. how can you repent? SEEK JESUS... HE IS THE GATE.

Rape is immoral under a number of different religions that exist and function without needing "Jesus the Gate."

And if you'd like, you can just reference chapter and verse rather than copying and pasting swathes of text.

 

[Montalban]

Ah, so you're referencing the goth subculture, not the Visigoths and Ostrogoths.

As noted, the Visigoths, and Ostrogoths weren't from Germany anyway

 

[Montalban]

Rape is immoral under a number of different religions that exist and function without needing "Jesus the Gate."

Didn't you say it was relative?

 

[Montalban]

Continued from my previous post...Are you specifying girls as young as nine? And this would likely be in countries other than the US, UK, and Australia?

I've already acknowledge that they're to follow the laws of the land - but they also seek to change the laws.

And note too that the web-sites are "English-language' ones.

There was a story a few years ago here in Australia where Australian girls of Lebanese heritage were turning up at our legation in Beruit. All had similar stories where their parents had lied to them to get them to accompany their fathers back to Lebanon, ostensibly to meet the relatives. But instead they were put into pre-arranged marriages. These girls were about 14, or 15 which would make it illegal under Australian law. SO these parents simply took them back to the old country to get around our laws.

As Australian citizens all, our legation helped them.

And I thank you for providing the links.

No problemo. I pride myself in research, evidence, et al.

Um, yes, thanks. (sheesh) You've provided an ABUNDANCE of information to go over. This may take a little while.

No problemo, again.[/quote]

Okay, first, the link you provided "Harmful Traditional Practices Affecting he Health of Women and Children" from the OHCHR. I agree with his document completely. However, in my first post, I was careful to specify "and unto itself was not harmful..." The fact sheet from the OHCHR talks about specific practices of arranged marriages, not arranged marriage as a whole. This is not to say they spoke of isolated cases, I'm only saying that cases did exist where such practices did not occur. Much that they spoke of focused on early-age pregnancy, and as far as I know, Aisha did not bear any children.

(emphasis mine)
According to a Moslem here, she did. I asked for proof and instead he cited the case of a nine year old in the Phillipines who had a child.

So I maintain, the marriage itself does not bother me, although actions taken after or as a result of that marriage are still a concern.

Sex with a child doesn't have to result in a pregnancy to cause her damage

Which then leads to indications of Mohammad's prowess and frequency of intimate relations. First and foremost, any claim of prowess or virility by a man over 40, whether by himself or his friends, is met with a carefully-considered measure of skepticism (And most men over 40 know EXACTLY what I'm talking about). Also. being in a hadith rather than the Koran, it immediately assumes slightly lesser credibility.

To an extent your statement is false. Although they say Hadith aren't direct from their god, the Hadith have a 'science of Hadith' to look at the chain of transmission. Simply being in a Hadith is not cause itself to be suspicious, or to assume it's got lesser credibility - Islamic law is in large part shaped by Hadith

The one thing that sticks in my mind is that if Mohammad was having intercourse with Aisha with ANY amount of frequency, how is it that she never became pregnant? While this proves nothing, per se', it certainly begs the question of whether or not he had actual intercourse with her very often, if at all, or if he was simply intimate (i.e. fondling, etc.)

Considering the wives and concubines he had, resulting in only one single child, I think you're looking to the wrong party for 'problems'.

Of course, perfectly clear. Now, I see two ways how the issue of age can be viewed, as you say, by example of the Prophet:

A) It is acceptable to be engaged to with a girl of six.
B) It is acceptable to be engaged to a girl of an age acceptable by the prevailing society.

They simply believe a) is the 'best case'. b) can be changed.

If apathy can be proved within reason, that I may concede puts a great distance between the offender and God.

As noted - a Moslem here says this custom has 'godly' approval

 

[Montalban]

You are appealing to ignorance. The Quran and hadith do not specify any minimum age of marriage. What 'law' are you talking about?

The Hadith have the 'example' of Muhammed's marriage as 'the law'. The ignorance comes from you not looking to how Moslem law works.

Next you'll be telling me that the prophet's life was never used as an example of moral behaviour.

With no verdict from the scripture on what age a woman can get married, Muslim scholars and jurists can consider the miminum age set by the constitutional law of the country.

And they can consider the example of Muhammed

Since you are crying foul while wearing your Christian cap, please tell us what your Christian scriptures and tradition state regarding the appropriate age of marriage for women. That way we can see if there is value in a Christian's voice against Muslim's 'marriageble age'.

Start a thread on it.

 

[Islam_mulia]

The Hadith have the 'example' of Muhammed's marriage as 'the law'. The ignorance comes from you not looking to how Moslem law works.

Please show us a hadith where Muhammad (pbuh) says that it is a 'law' that you can or must marry a woman at this age or that.

 

[Islam_mulia]

Next you'll be telling me that the prophet's life was never used as an example of moral behaviour.

Muslims do believe that Muhammad's (pbuh) life was a fine example of moral behavior.

Muhammad (pbuh) had other wives, as did other people during his time. In fact, a number of his wives were widows, not virgins. Why do Muslims not take it as a 'law' that Muslims must marry widows?

The focus on his marriage is therefore not on his liking for younger women, but his example for Muslims to choose a wife to foster relationship between families and clans, a wife that has a good religious background and hence can help guide his children to be good Muslims, etc.

 

[Fuzzy]

As noted, the Visigoths, and Ostrogoths weren't from Germany anyway

You're right...Germanic is different from German. My error.

Didn't you say it was relative?

What I said was:

Islam has a code of behavior for the genders that others see as repressive. It's relative.

This was in direct response to the question in the OP of Islam being repressive/oppressive to women. Who's an oppressed woman - the Muslim in hijab? Michelle Duggar, who's part of the Quiverfull Movement? Both? Neither? Both are adhering to tenets of faith.

Others have stated that Aisha's marriage at the age of 6 or 7 was not unusual for its time (~620 AD), while it would be very out of place in a number of countries today.

I do think 9 is too young. Am I going to hold that against Muslims? No.

 

[Montalban]

You're right...Germanic is different from German. My error.

Sorry for your ignorance.

The Ostrogoths were 'eastern' goths and came into Europe from the steppes of Russia. They first hassled the (Eastern) Roman Empire and were latter to settle with other Germanic tribes.

The Visigoths were 'western goths' who harried the western Roman Empire.

Though some believe that they can be traced back to Gothland (in Sweden - not Germany)

Also...
Swedish is not German, but it is a Germanic language. English too is classified as being Germanic.

It pays to read a wee bit.

 

[Montalban]

What I said was:


This was in direct response to the question in the OP of Islam being repressive/oppressive to women. Who's an oppressed woman - the Muslim in hijab? Michelle Duggar, who's part of the Quiverfull Movement? Both? Neither? Both are adhering to tenets of faith.

Others have stated that Aisha's marriage at the age of 6 or 7 was not unusual for its time (~620 AD), while it would be very out of place in a number of countries today.

I do think 9 is too young. Am I going to hold that against Muslims? No.

So is it 'relative'?

 

[Montalban]

Please show us a hadith where Muhammad (pbuh) says that it is a 'law' that you can or must marry a woman at this age or that.

I never claimed that it was the law that one must. If you read my posts you'd save yourself such wastes of time

 

[Montalban]

Muslims do believe that Muhammad's life was a fine example of moral behavior.

Read Muhammad A Role Model for a New Millennium
"The Prophet accomplished all this through the strength of his character and personal example;"

Muhammad (pbuh) had other wives, as did other people during his time. In fact, a number of his wives were widows, not virgins. Why do Muslims not take it as a 'law' that Muslims must marry widows?

I never claimed that they must marry children, Jews, Chrisitans, older women or widows - as Muhammed did.

The focus on his marriage is therefore not on his liking for younger women, but his example for Muslims to choose a wife to foster relationship between families and clans, a wife that has a good religious background and hence can help guide his children to be good Muslims, etc.

So Muhammed didn't consummate the marriage, it was strictly platonic a relationship!

 

[elwill]

I would tend to agree.
Notice the final chapter in the GNT book of Revelation what the messenger says to John when he falls to worship him. Verse 16 seems to imply it is Jesus.

Will have to look at this more closely as Revelation is a highly Hebrew symbolic book. Thoughts?

Reve 22:8 And I, John, the one hearing and beholding these things, and when I hear and behold, I fall to worship before the feet of the messenger, the one showing to me these things.
9 And he is saying to me: "Be you seeing! no, fellow bond-servent of thee I am and of the brothers of thee, the prophets and of the ones keeping the Words of the scrollet, this. To the GOD worship you!
16 I Jesus, send the messenger of me to testify to ye these things on the ecclesias. I am the root and the breed of David. The star, the shining, the morning.

thank you littlelambofjesus
well , i will give you my interpretation for that , from my personal point of view .
may be we differs in our view for the same verse , but if my view is not logical inform me why it isn't , okey

Reve 22:8 And I, John, the one hearing and beholding these things, and when I hear and behold, I fall to worship before the feet of the messenger, the one showing to me these things.

NKJV
Now I, John, saw and heard[c] these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

the angel (jebril according to muslims) is the massanger of God for his prophets
you can say that God deal with his prophets through the angel jebril
so , when the massenger (jebril) show John the paradise , he fall worshiped before the angel Jebril (he didn't knew yet that it's wrong )

so what was the reaction of jebril (pbuh)?!!

9 And he is saying to me: "Be you seeing! no, fellow bond-servent of thee I am and of the brothers of thee, the prophets and of the ones keeping the Words of the scrollet, this. To the GOD worship you!

Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For[d] I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

the angel jebril denyed this act from John and said to him "don't do that (worship before me ) , for i'm just servant from God to serve you and your brothers of the prophets (you see it's same view of muslims that jibril always the angel who contact with the prophets)

then he correct his act and said to him "worship the God"


16 I Jesus, send the messenger of me to testify to ye these things on the ecclesias. I am the root and the breed of David. The star, the shining, the morning

what is your openion about the next verses

angel continue his massage from God
18 For[i] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add[j] to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[k] his part from the Book[l] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

is it mean that God knew that the people will add to the book and will take away things from the book ? may be someone add the word Jesus to the verse ? thoughts !
what do you think ?

 

[elwill]

Well first off Allah is many gods made into one.. thats like me taking a statue of a duck, a piano, 2 chickens, 6 nails, a picture of a meadow, a candle stick and a wet rock.. put them all in a box and call them Boo-Boo-Cha! Mohamaad said, "I make all the things in the box one and call them Boo-Boo-Cha" All hail the mighty Boo-Boo-Cha! The only real difference is Mohamaad actually took idols and fake gods that many different people created and worshiped and said he makes them one GOD. SO, SORRY PAL.. but GOD is the creator of EVERYTHING. Either your box of allah isn't the creator or all.. or he doesnt exist at all.. Your "doctrine" is flawed from its very beginning.

it's the third time you repeat this point with no knowledge or even trying to use your mind

4 - So they(mekkans) wonder that a Warner has come to them from among themselves and the Unbelievers say, this is a sorcerer telling lies

5 -(unbeliever continue saying) Has he made the gods (all) into one God? truly this is a wonderful thing.​

so, this statement is according to pagans in mekkah .
they were worship many Gods , each idol represent defferent God
mohammed(pbuh) came with a new massage for them to worship one God so that pagans wondered by this question​

Has he made the gods (all) into one God? truly this is a wonderful thing.​

 

[um hamza]

Well first off Allah is many gods made into one.. thats like me taking a statue of a duck, a piano, 2 chickens, 6 nails, a picture of a meadow, a candle stick and a wet rock.. put them all in a box and call them Boo-Boo-Cha! Mohamaad said, "I make all the things in the box one and call them Boo-Boo-Cha" All hail the mighty Boo-Boo-Cha! The only real difference is Mohamaad actually took idols and fake gods that many different people created and worshiped and said he makes them one GOD. SO, SORRY PAL.. but GOD is the creator of EVERYTHING. Either your box of allah isn't the creator or all.. or he doesnt exist at all.. Your "doctrine" is flawed from its very beginning.

here again you introduce your idea without evidence for me it is nonsence
Now most importantly something for you deeply understand from one end of the universe to the other.. I do not have a "doctrine", a "theory", not even a "religion" ... I have a personal, intimate relationship with GOD. I am not connected to Him through a pastor, preacher or a building. The moment I accepted and believed in what Jesus Christ did for me this impermeable bond was established.
alot of Paradoxes here

As for the Trinitarian doctrine .. The Father, the Son, & The Holy Spirit..
I am a Father, a Son, and have an eternal spirit ... He made me like Him
I do fell sorry to christian when someone asks them to clear out what is trinity.
iam a father a son and a spirit??????? how come I don't get it .3 in 1?? what is the father do you mean he is human?? what is the son ofcourse we know he is chrisit but how can he be the father in the same second and spirit ohhh it is a mess

1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; 4. And there is none like unto Him
Surah 112. The Unity, Sincerity, Oneness Of Allah

Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image

I can break it down a little more for ya

you know very well that we won't understand and neither do you

.. GOD is our Father (including yours) who knows every hair on our heads who fastened us together and gave us the gift of existance. Since the first sin of Adam and Eve, people are born sinners. This sin is what separates us from GOD since He is the Most High, Holy of Holy, Absolute Purity, Love, Joy, and the very foundation of Truth. Jesus Christ being

born of GOD by GOD makes Him the Son.

wait a minute born by God??? how come do you mean sexual realationship?? if you mean so how did it happen and where her on earth or at heaven??
and when that happen God was aman or still God the creator of evrey thing??

MAN STOP it's a mess . God is one only one nothing like him when will you get it?

The Son was born to be the gate to Him. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to Save the world through Him. GOD gave us His Son (GOD's Flesh & Spirit) as not only the perfect role model but to be Our Lord & Savior! And wOw! He is a beautiful Lord to follow

lord?? means God?? who is the lord now jesus or his father or both?? if both can i choose one of them to worshop??
AGAIAN ITS A MESS

Of course GOD is the omnipresent creator of everything.. hence the Holy Spirit.

As I told ya.. I KNOW GOD. There is only one way to Him... through the Gate.. so if you are trying to reach GOD through a mentally twisted, spiritually desperate, lonesome pedophile whose very roots lead to Ishmael the son born in faithless sin who was cast out into the desert by the orders of GOD... start over. Follow GOD's Chosen line.. Start with Abraham, follow Isaac (the son of GOD's promise) down the line to King David.. all the way to Mary (the virgin mother of Jesus through Mary's father!) Also Solomon (King David's Son) leads to Joseph (Virgin Mary's Husband). And of course you have Jesus.. born from Virgin and GOD!

DIVINITY.. ITS CLEAR. ITS PURE.


Rev 9:20-21 The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

A 52 year old man raping a 9 year old girl.. is immoral, murder is immoral, lying is immoral... Mohamaad is Immoral and ISLAM does not have a gate.. how can you repent? SEEK JESUS... HE IS THE GATE.

Jn 10:11 "I am the goodshepherd. The goodshepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

GOD BLESS YOU, I PRAY HE TOUCHES YOUR LIFE.

With Love,
- Jefell

getshook .com

AT the end i will say to what Allah said

171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
Surah 4. Women

34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. 36. Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
Surah 19. Mary

 

[um hamza]

Thanks for the information! The comparison with the New Testament does put it in perspective to me.




Is a good percentage of the material a biography?

I don't understand the question say it in a diffrent way

 

[elwill]

They simply believe a) is the 'best case'. b) can be changed.

are we said that marry of 6yo is a best case ? i challenge you.

As noted - a Moslem here says this custom has 'godly' approval

this custom havn't refused by God , that's all

peace

 

[Montalban]

are we said that marry of 6yo is a best case ? i challenge you.

So you're saying the law/allowance by your god is not the best, but rather, the restrictions placed by a modern law is better?

How odd!

this custom havn't refused by God , that's all

peace

What does this prove? Nothing. Therefore there's no point mentioning it.

 

[Montalban]

AT the end i will say to what Allah said

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

39:4
If Allah had willed to choose a son, He could have chosen what He would of that which He hath created.

 

[Jefell]

Mohamaad is the great deceiver... some how this child molester, rapist, murderer & liar has you convinced he is a good guy. Your just as guilty as Mohamaad.. you say its ok to be 52 years old and rape a 9year old child. You say its ok to fondle a child while you soak in a tub of her menstrual blood. You say its ok to murder the innocent because they dont share your beliefs. You say its ok to be a liar. You say its ok to be a rapist. You do not believe in GOD's only Son. YOU ARE GUILTY and WILL BE JUDGED.

Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

You will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You have been warned.. you have been shown the truth.. You have been shown the way to Salvation through Jesus Christ. You shun them all. So YOU are guilty and are self condemned. YOU are an enemy of GOD.

In spite of all this, you keep on sinning; in spite of the wonders of Jesus Christ, you do not believe.

Surely God will crush the heads of his enemies, the hairy crowns of those who go on in their sins.

I tell you that you will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word you have spoken. "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but you love darkness instead of light because your deeds are evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. JESUS is the LIGHT. Whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God. Whoever hears His word and believes GOD who sent Him has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; Jesus judges and His judgment is just, for He seeks not to please himself but Him who sent Him.


Time is short.. Some will be Saved.

With Love,
- Jefell

getshook .com