what do you know about Islam?

[Futuwwa]

It certainly shows you need to read more Islamic history. And it shows your glossing over her life.

Ok, why don't you prove analytically that her revolt against Ali was a direct consequence of her marriage to Muhammed? It is you who are making an assertion, so according to common debate practices, the burden of proof is upon you.

Then, you could tell us how it is possible that she, if she really was abused by Muhammed, considered him more sexually restrained than any other man?

 

[Zstar]

What do you know about islam?

One thing I do know is the Scriptures of Islam are the Koran.

I was wondering how many pages are in the Koran, is it a considerable volume of text? What in your opinion is the most sacred saying of the prophet?

 

[français]

You've already submitted. That's all they require

Not true. Research the 7 conditions of the Shahadah.

I'd like to see the Moslem response to you calling their verses shameful

Where did I call it shameful?!!!! You are putting words in my mouth!
I would not change a thing about the Qu'ran. There is nothing shameful in that book of wisdom.

Are you an expert? I've already cited the verses. I've already cited Islamic opinion on the issue.

You have cited bulk articles, not a few verses that could be addressed.

As noted, they're already there. If you wanted to discuss them, you'd have done so already

Says who?

Which has nothing to do with this topic

Nope, but hypocrisy should always be pointed out.

There's nothing new about Wiccans, but it still doesn't demonstrate your attempt at a point - in fact given the time frame there still should be at least a few Arab Wiccans. Where are the Arab pagans?

The Arab Pagans do not exist longer because they converted to Islam!

And Wiccans did not exist 1400 years ago. Any educated person will tell you that.

Funny that you would be aghast at this, but support Islamic atrocities. Showing your true colours.

Well, I have not seen any Islamic atrocities so how am I supporting any?

But they were forced to convert. Convenient for you to not even look at that.

who said they were forced to convert?

Having sex with a child is not good for her.

Says who, you?

Not at the time of Muhammed, which was the strange time-frame you established for your challenge

This once again shows your lack of knowledge on Islam.

From 614-615, a handful of Muslims(including prominent Muslims like Uthman) migrated to Abyssinia.

Then, in 616, about a hundred Muslims went, including very prominent Muslims like Aisha, Uthman, Abu Bakr, etc. They were there for several years.

And you do not know about this why? I thought you knew a lot on Islam! The migrations to Abyssinia were huge events.

Since you mention this, why not look at what happened to one tribe of Arab Jews, the Banu Quraish?

The Banu Quraish were not Jews! they were Pagan Arabs of Mecca!

LOL, please, learn about Islam before you speak about it. My goodness, error after error.

Several people Muhammed couldn't touch because they were too powerful

Or perhaps because Muhammad was a good guy. He could have killed him in his sleep, no?

She was sexually used. Are you saying she had ample opportunity to leave if she should have wished; that there was a larger support network to help a single, formerly married woman?

If she was so sexually used, then why did Muhammad allow her to go on migration to Abyssinia? I mean after all, if all he wanted was sex!

Divorce happened amongst some of the sahabah and the women lived just fine. Also, many widows.

That's not the argument I made. Tu quoque is 'you too'.
If I said "All Americans mistreated their native population" and you said "Australians did this too!" that would be a tu quoque argument if you were using it as a means of defending America, or attacking Australia for being hypocritcal

Yes, and I do think you are being hypocritical. But I do not at all think that Muhammad did anything wrong, and I do not think Islam is a violent religion. I think your Bible is though. So, I am not saying "you too" I am saying "just you."

That is the essence of it, if you are using it as a way of saying "You can't criticise Islam, you're just as bad" - which is in fact what you're doing.

No, because your criticisms of Islam are all your wishful thinking, not factual proofs.

That's simply false. But it's consistant an accusation with your Islamic apology here. Besides that, what have they to do with a discussion on what we know about Islam?

It doesn't, but it does with your hypocrisy.

The act of 'consummating' the marriage when she was nine is an assault

No it was not. It is not like he raped and used her.

As noted, you're an apologist for Islam. You make false 'challenges' such as posting Hadith, when I've already done that - twice!

No, you post long articles that you yourself probably do not read.

Why are you against them making statues out of dates? What possible objection could you have, if you claim to be a non-Moslem?

They were making idols out of dates and depriving the poor, hungry, when many people had ample food.

You're now talking about the plague???

Among other issues.

Another of your flawed challenges. You could easily have done so; and you tacitly recognise that you're off topic

I am not going to start a thread if one does not want me to.

I have clearly offered to discuss you on the Bible. But you have not accepted. So why would I make a thread, if perhaps you are too busy or are not interested in discussing?

I think something is pretty clear here.. People who are against Islam seem to have a lot of misconceptions on it. you have made four grave errors in this post that I have called you off on. Another member against Islam did the same. This should tell people something..

 

[français]

One thing I do know is the Scriptures of Islam are the Koran.

I was wondering how many pages are in the Koran, is it a considerable volume of text?

I am not a Muslim, but I can tell you the length of the Qu'ran!

It is about the size of the New Testament.. In fact, just a little smaller. So, it is not very long, but it is very powerful.

 

[elwill]

It's circular when you say it's Allah's word, based on the revelation that it's Allah's word. How do you know? Allah's word says it is.

well , you also call the bible God's word
but you allready know it isn't , that's why when you talk about bible , you say according to mathew or according to john or according to paul , you never say according to God or even according to jesus , because you havnt book of God nor book of jesus

 

[Druweid]

Druweid, you might want to check out the following:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 299: Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Aswad:
'Aisha said: "Whenever Allah's Apostle wanted to fondle anyone of us during her periods (menses), he used to order her to put on an Izar and start fondling her." 'Aisha added, "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could."

Does that sound like the words of a victim of sexual abuse? I think not.

Thank you Futuwwa. I will certainly take that into consideration, but in all fairness and objectivity, and with all due respect, I will also have to consider the possibility of some form of Stockholm Syndrome.

I've had projects to work on tonight, and work starts early tomorrow, so my next post will prolly be later in the day.

Warmest regards,
-- Druweid

 

[Montalban]

well , you also call the bible God's word
but you allready know it isn't , that's why when you talk about bible , you say according to mathew or according to john or according to paul , you never say according to God or even according to jesus , because you havnt book of God nor book of jesus

There’s a lot of problems with this. One is I’ve never made such an argument that the Bible is the word of God because the Bible says so. I don’t believe that the Bible is the Word of God because the Bible says so. Maybe you’re thinking of someone else?

Secondly I don’t see what an argument about the Bible has to do with the topic at hand.

 

[Montalban]

Not true. Research the 7 conditions of the Shahadah.

You don't have to be a Moslem to submit, but all Moslems have submitted

Where did I call it shameful?!!!! You are putting words in my mouth!
I would not change a thing about the Qu'ran. There is nothing shameful in that book of wisdom.
You have cited bulk articles, not a few verses that could be addressed.

And you could have addressed any one of them. You haven't.

Says who?

It's logical. You're setting up conditions on debating when you could have yourself taken any one of those verses and addressed it.

You still haven't.

You simply advertise how 'genuine' you wish to debate that evidence.

Hypocrisy, IF it existed, is not a defence.

As I note, if you really want to address that evidence you will.

 

[Montalban]

Thank you Futuwwa. I will certainly take that into consideration, but in all fairness and objectivity, and with all due respect, I will also have to consider the possibility of some form of Stockholm Syndrome.

I've had projects to work on tonight, and work starts early tomorrow, so my next post will prolly be later in the day.

Warmest regards,
-- Druweid

There's also verses saying he could satisfy all the women he wanted, so his 'control' stories are to be viewed in that light to - the super-stud that he was

 

[français]

Ah, it is funny... I spot 4 errors in your post, clearly point out your errors, and you ignore over the entire part of the post. Looks like it is getting hard for you!

You don't have to be a Moslem to submit, but all Moslems have submitted

Submitted to Islam? Well of course they do.

And you could have addressed any one of them. You haven't.

Because if I address one but not the other, it would not be right. Also, I do not have an hour to do that. Which is why I asked you to post one or two at a time so I would have time to address them.

It's logical. You're setting up conditions on debating when you could have yourself taken any one of those verses and addressed it.

You still haven't.

And, I already told you why.. Because you simply posted a big copy/paste article, and if I addressed every single thing, it would take me a few hours.. Time I do not have.

But if you posted one or two at a time, I would have the time to address them and then move from there.

I have told you this already. Sounds like I am speaking to a wall.

You simply advertise how 'genuine' you wish to debate that evidence.

No.

Hypocrisy, IF it existed, is not a defence.

Yes, because it shows a character flaw and makes one question their credibility.

As I note, if you really want to address that evidence you will.

As I note, if you really want me to address that evidence, you will post one or two verses at a time, so that I would have time to answer.

 

[elwill]

So al-Lah didn't have to keep it just because it was normal practice then, did he!

You're argument was
"Young marriage was kept because it was normal practice"

You need to think then about what argument you wish to make

i will repeat my statement again
it didn't rejected by allah although it was normal practice

i mean if it was bad practice , God had to prohibit it , but it isn't

Lots of things, even adding minarets to your mosque

hahaha
are you consider that , reform of relegion ?
you kmow ? we also adding fans inside our mosque

The UN is in New York
The evidence in post #105
Here's the link to that evidence
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu6/2/fs23.htm

thank you , but please can you make it easier for me
what is the kind of suffering for early girls pride?
we are common that God didn't prohibit it in islam and christianity , so that i wanna to understand your personal view

*sigh* I just stated that
a) it's harmful HOW and for whom ?
b) there's no evidence to say that just because she's physically capable of it, she's 'ready' for it psychologically, emotionally, etc.

well , my openion is that she is ready for that . proof for me that i'm wrong

UNLESS you can show a commensurate maturity at the time she just begins physical maturation. You've yet to do this.

i never see any problems with early marriage ? did you ?

In point of fact you've also avoided showing that Aisha was capable at that time to! Sure, you showed evidence another individual was, but that's not what I asked.

i didn't need to do so
we argue about the practice not about Aisha (AS)

As noted as well, even Islamic nations don't allow her adult rights at that time.

may be , but she has the right to marry (from relegious point of view )

I think that answers itself. If you're not 'mature' you're not ready.

it depends , you must ask yourself first , ready to what ?

The problem is your god didn't seem to know about the harm it would cause.

well , count for me the problems , and don't repeat your words " she not mature emotionally" , i want the problems caused of that

all i ask is to convice me that this practice is harmfull , we believe that if it's harmfull , so it could be prohibited in islam by God

 

[um hamza]

One thing I do know is the Scriptures of Islam are the Koran.

I was wondering how many pages are in the Koran, is it a considerable volume of text? What in your opinion is the most sacred saying of the prophet?

on the name of Allah and peace be upon the prophet of Allah
there are about 604 pages in the Quran
i think it's volum is suitable for a book which contains the every thing happened before and after and in the future
all of the saying of the prophet peace be upon him are sacred every thing he said every thing he did

 

[warghaha]

Whoa! A new look. I thought I'd been on a phishing site for once .
It's a little bit diffi to search for this part of forum as i usually scrolled down to the very bottom of th page and there it is, the non-Christian part of the world.

Also note the important fact that Moslems are still allowed to marry girls.

I've cited several Moslem advice sites on this thread that attest to this.

This is because of the 'internal logic' in Islam.

Hmm...'allowed' doesn't mean 'must'. Ah! I know this is lame answer.
In modern days, Muslims don't marry their children anymore 'below age' (except for some very little cases, if any). Ah! another lame answer.

But what I want to build from that lame asnwer of mine is:
Muslims also followed the constitutional law. And 'muslims countries' in modern days have this law. So, 'allowed' here doesn't mean Muslims can freely mmarry their chi;dren below todays 'standard age of marriage'. I can assure you that, Muslims responsible to follow the constitutional law as long as it's not against the God commandments. And the good news is, God doesn't command us to marry our children when they come to certain age.

Moslems respect Muhammed and see him as an example FOR ALL TIME - not just for the people of the desert of 7th Century Arabia. His wives are 'archetypes' of the sort of women Moslems are permitted to marry.

Yup. And Muhammad also follow the constitutional law and he's made clear(although he actually re-stated from the Quran) that Muslims must abide to national law. Abiding to national law is a must while marrying to 'todays non-standard marital age' is just allowed. Islam has a clear guiedline between 'must' and 'allowed' which is 'must' is the top priority.

So, Muhammad is still our icon and we follow most of his examples but in this particular case, we must: "Obey Allah and obey the Rasul and the leader among you".

Oops. I see a question "so do you really condone mariage below today's legal age?" is coming. So I'll answer in advance... "nope"

For instance he married an older woman, a Chrisitan, and a Jew. A Moslem is thus permitted to marry a Christian because of this example.

This does not mean "All moslems will marry Chrisitan women" but it is allowed.

This is a clear sign Islam is not of God because their god did not forsee the harm this would cause.

Actually, we're permitted because there's a verse in Quran 5:5 with some conditions: basically chaste and "true believer". What is "true believer"?...it's debatable and should be on different thread I guess. The point is, it's not because Muhammad's example(does any of his wife wasn't converted to Islam when they married?...hmm).

EDIT: Oh! I'm sorry. Um Hamza is the thread starter ..and she's here.

 

[Montalban]

Ah, it is funny... I spot 4 errors in your post, clearly point out your errors, and you ignore over the entire part of the post. Looks like it is getting hard for you!

Dream on. You still claim you want to discuss the evidence I presented and still haven't.

Submitted to Islam? Well of course they do.

And you've submitted.

Because if I address one but not the other, it would not be right.

That's illogical. If you charge someone with murder you don't have to examine everyone else's guilt as well. But you're happy inventing errors as well.

And here it comes...

Also, I do not have an hour to do that.

And now you continue with the insincerity of claiming that you'll address the evidence I cited

Hence I don't deal any further with your post.

 

[Montalban]

Hmm...'allowed' doesn't mean 'must'. Ah! I know this is lame answer.

I already made that point; look to where I said not every Moslem will marry a Chrisitan.

In modern days, Muslims don't marry their children anymore 'below age' (except for some very little cases, if any). Ah! another lame answer.

Great. But it's still allowed. That's like saying (if slavery was still legal) "Modern corporations don't have to have slave workers, but they're allowed to" (and in this hypothetical SOME companies in point of fact still had them)

Muslims also followed the constitutional law. And 'muslims countries' in modern days have this law.

I agree. They've had to separate their laws from the Koran. Thanks for showing how the Koran-based laws are so reprehensible that many Moslem nations don't stick to it anymore

So, Muhammad is still our icon and we follow most of his examples but in this particular case, we must: "Obey Allah and obey the Rasul and the leader among you".

Again showing that your god wasn't aware of these things but fortunately Moslems of today - in some places - are more 'enlightened' than your god.

 

[Montalban]

Thank you Futuwwa. I will certainly take that into consideration, but in all fairness and objectivity, and with all due respect, I will also have to consider the possibility of some form of Stockholm Syndrome.

I've had projects to work on tonight, and work starts early tomorrow, so my next post will prolly be later in the day.

Warmest regards,
-- Druweid

Sorry Druweid. I forgot to cite the verses

Volume 1, Book 5, Number 268:

Narrated Qatada:

Anas bin Malik said, "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa'id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven).
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/005.sbt.html#001.005.268

Volume 1, Book 5, Number 270:

Narrated Muhammad bin Al-Muntathir:

on the authority of his father that he had asked 'Aisha about the saying of Ibn 'Umar(i.e. he did not like to be a Muhrim while the smell of scent was still coming from his body). 'Aisha said, "I scented Allah's Apostle and he went round (had sexual intercourse with) all his wives, and in the morning he was Muhrim (after taking a bath)."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/005.sbt.html#001.005.270

The claims of 'control' regarding his desires then have to be seen in light of the beliefs they have about his sex life.

 

[Jefell]

He did not rape her!

1. He probably married her to further relations with Abu Bakr, her dad. It was a norm at that time to do such. Unlike marriage now days that is seen for the sole purpose of love, marriage back then was also done if it would help benefit the family or what not.

2. Show me where he said no.

Show me where he raped her.

LOL! I challenge you to show me one place in the Qu'raan where it says this.
you know so little about Islam! This is no where to be found in the Qu'ran!

You think your religion is peaceful?

Start up a thread, and you and I can debate if your religion is peaceful or not.

Well lets see... HERE is where Her father first thought something wasnt right with this:

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18:

Narrated 'Ursa:

The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

And Remember this is from Mohamaad's point of view.. tainted from a twisted man.. but you can not hide the truth you can feel it.


But most importantly and absoulety REPULSIVE for any human being yet alone a "Prophet" Here is your Mohamaad soaking in blood with a menstruating child:

Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298:

Narrated 'Aisha:

The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).


This might be normal for this false prophet.. Mohamaad is Not even a man of GOD let alone a messenger or prophet of GOD. Mohamaad is Evil and so is the religion of ISLAM.

Mohamaad SOAKED IN A TUB OF BLOOD with a Menstruating Child!!

A child is bleeding Menstrually.. and Mohamaad is sitting in a tub with Her.. Soaking in the Blood.. blood, secretions, and tissue debris from Her uterus.


SEEK JESUS.. Get Saved! Jesus is the Gate.
JESUS IS PEACEFUL... SO PEACEFUL THAT HE WILLINGLY DIED FOR YOUR SINS... SO YOU COULD BE FORGIVEN & HAVE LIFE!! THATS HOW GOOD & LOVING GOD IS!

Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Mohamaad SOAKED IN A TUB OF BLOOD with a Menstruating Child!! You are blindly following a false prophet.

GOD IS GOOD, GOD IS LOVE, GOD IS JOY.. GOD IS THE VERY FOUNDATION OF TRUTH.


With Love,
- Jefell

getshook .com - Jesus is the Gate

 

[Jefell]

Holy Prophet (pbuh) observed Itikaf for ten days every year in the month of Ramadan. In the year he passed away he observed it for twenty days.

Itikaf is a form of worship. It is formed by staying in a Mosque for a certain time. It is Ehtiyat that one should stay with the intention to worship Allah by praying formal or informal prayers although prayer is not a condition therein.
The time for this form of worship could be anytime when one is allowed to fast. The best time is the month of Ramadan, especially, the last ten days.

SO BASICALLY Mohamaad fondled menstruating children while worshipping GOD in a Mosque during Ramadan... RIGHT? Uh huh, yeah... This is your prophet?? Mohamaad is no prophet or man of GOD. He is evil.

Trace Mohamaad's roots to Ishmael.. the son born through faithless sin and then cast out into the desert by GOD's order.

Mohamaad is the Anti-Christ, Islam is the Beast.


Jesus is the GOOD SHEPHERD.

With Love,
-Jefell

getshook .com

 

[Jefell]

ALLAH ACCORDING TO MUHAMMAD CONSIST OF 360 IDOLS OF MECCA INTO ALLAH.

038.005
YUSUFALI: "Has he made the gods (all) into one Allah? Truly this is a wonderful thing!"

PICKTHAL: Maketh he the gods One Allah? Lo! that is an astounding thing.
SHAKIR: What! makes he the gods a single Allah? A strange thing is this, to be sure!

2 Corinthians 11:14: And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades an angel of light.


MORE ON MOHAMAAD: He lied to Hafsa so he could RAPE Mariah!

One-day Muhammad goes to his wife's house Hafsa the daughter of Omar and finds her maid Mariah attractive. He sends Hafsa to Omar’s house, telling her that he wanted to see her. When Hafsa leaves, Muhammad takes Mariah to bed and has RAPE / intercourse with her. Meanwhile Hafsa, who finds out that her father was not expecting her, returns home much sooner than expected, and to her chagrin finds her illustrious husband in bed with her maid.

She becomes hysteric and forgetting the station of the prophet she shouts and causes a scandal. The prophet pleads with her to calm down and promises not to sleep with Mariah anymore and begs her also not to divulge this secret to anyone else.

However, Hafsa would not control herself and relays everything to Ayisha who also turns against the prophet and jointly with his other wives cause him much anguish. So the prophet decides to punish all of them and not sleep with any one of his wives for one month. Depriving one’s wives sexually is the second grade of punishment recomendedn in Quran. The first level is admonishing, the second level is depriving them of sex and the third level of punishment is beating them. Q. 4: 34.

Of course when a man decides to punish a wife with sexual deprivation he can satisfy himself with his other wives. But Muhammad’s anger had made him make the oath not to sleep with any of them for one month. That of course would have been too much of hardship for the beloved messenger of God, therefore God in his mercy came to the aid of his prophet and revealed the Surah Tahrim (Banning).


HOW MUCH MORE PROOF IS NEEDED!??
All Facts!:
Mohamaad decends from Ishmael (the son born in sin cast in desert by GOD's orders!)
Mohamaad created Allah as a collection of "gods". (Including Baal and statues!! This is idolatry!!)
Mohamaad created Islam from Judiash to praise HIMSELF. (He thought the Jews would follow him because it had similarities.. but the Jews were devout and this angered Mohamaad so he started murdering Jews and calling them infidels!)
Mohamaad is a murderer. (by his own hand)
Mohamaad is a rapist. (He has no regard for any other life than his own)
Mohamaad is a child molestor. (Clearly has no conscience or morals)
Mohamaad is a liar. (He lied to his wife soe he could rape the maid.. you think he is telling you the truth?)

How do you trust such a man? A man that calls himself a "Messenger of GOD"

JESUS DIED FOR YOUR SINS! Jesus sacrificed Himself to save you.


With Love,
- Jefell

getshook .com

 

[warghaha]

I already made that point; look to where I said not every Moslem will marry a Chrisitan.

Yup, and look where I stated "Ah! I know this is lame answer." That's not my real point, but my points are located below my lame answers.

Great. But it's still allowed. That's like saying (if slavery was still legal) "Modern corporations don't have to have slave workers, but they're allowed to" (and in this hypothetical SOME companies in point of fact still had them)

Well, it's allowed because there's no Quranic verses that disallow it. But the top priority must go first.

I agree. They've had to separate their laws from the Koran. Thanks for showing how the Koran-based laws are so reprehensible that many Moslem nations don't stick to it anymore

Nope. There's no law of marrying girls when they reach certain age in Quran. It's no like we seperate it, but just move with todays situation. It's like the drugs abuse law. There's no law in Quran that permits nor disallow it. But from Quran we got the verse that say, don't put yourself into destruction. So go figure .

Same with this case. None in Quran that disallow this but the top priority than allowing this is to follow the contitutional law. The leaders can make the law which is not against God's command.

Again showing that your god wasn't aware of these things but fortunately Moslems of today - in some places - are more 'enlightened' than your god.

Wasn't aware? Haha. It's more like 'my' God allow us to go with temporary trend and needs .
Since you can freely speaking of 'my' God, does 'your' Bible disallow or condemn this kind of marriage?.
I was thinking, maybe todays legal marriage age would increase in 100 years maybe and todays 16 year old marriage will be labeled as phedophile