what do you know about Islam?

[Montalban]

"Societal and global values changing (or hiding) with the passage of time" is the best answer I can provide you.

So what's good is simpy what's deemed good by society?

 

[Islam_mulia]

One other thing that surprises me is that Christian writers during the Prophet's time did write things against Islam and the Prophet but never criticised Muhammad's marriage to a young woman. (St) John of Damascus, for example, did write a critique on Islam and Muhammad (pbuh) and did attack various Islamic beliefs, but never said anything about his marraige to Aisha at her young age.

I should say the marriage of a young woman then was never an issue among the Christian fraternity nor even for the Jewish community in the 7th century. Since Montalban now is crying foul about this marriage, maybe we should ask him where in the christian scripture or tradition was it said that (1) it was morally wrong to marry at a young age and (2) a minimum age where it is morally justifiable to marry for a woman.

I know Montalban asked me to start a new thread on this - I have no time and hope we can continue from here.

 

[Montalban]

So you agree that the Quran does not state that it is a 'law' to marry young women.

I never said it was. I repeated that I've never said so. Now I do so again.

The Quran and hadith do not also provide any 'teaching' of a minimum age of marriage.

That's not true. I've stated the 'example' of Muhammed. I've evidenced that he is an example from a Moslem site. You've not addressed this at all. All you've done is to repeat a non-point about it not being legislated.

Since there is no 'law' or 'teaching' on the age where a woman can get married, it is left to the discretion of the scholars and jurists and the two families to decide if the marriage can be consummate without jeopardising the happines and pose a danger to the spouses.

That's false. And in fact it doesn't help your case in defence of Muhammed, because potentially a scholar could have the girl married even younger than 9

Now you're suggesting that scholars just arbitrarily come up with an age - instead of using the example of Muhammed as a guide.

For example, in Saudi Arabia, there is no minimum age of marriage and the 'law' states that

Well there you go. How's this a defence of marrying young girls?

The social and economic structure in this modern world is different from that of the 7th century. Muhammad did marry a younger woman (though some scholars disagree on the actual age of Aisha) and at that time it was not a taboo, neither was it a crime. The expectations of Muslim women today are different.

*sigh*
Not only have you ignored my evidence from Moslem web-sites, you went on to suggest that a Moslem man can marry a younger girl, and in fact your point to an example of Saudi Arabia allowing just this.

Somewhere sometime soon you're going to come up with a point, aren't you?

 

[Montalban]

One other thing that surprises me is that Christian writers during the Prophet's time did write things against Islam and the Prophet but never criticised Muhammad's marriage to a young woman. (St) John of Damascus, for example, did write a critique on Islam and Muhammad (pbuh) and did attack various Islamic beliefs, but never said anything about his marraige to Aisha at her young age.

Most early Chrisitans didn't know how to respond to Islam. Most thought of Islam as a heretical sect of Chrisitanity.

I should say the marriage of a young woman then was never an issue among the Christian fraternity nor even for the Jewish community in the 7th century.

You shouldn't say it, because it doesn't prove any point.

If Chrisitans were silent - you don't believe that justifies your faith. If they criticise it, you certianly don't feel it detracts from your faith. John of Damascus says your Koran has Jesus the son of Mary, the sister of Moses. Does this detract from your faith?

Since Montalban now is crying foul about this marriage, maybe we should ask him where in the christian scripture or tradition was it said that (1) it was morally wrong to marry at a young age and (2) a minimum age where it is morally justifiable to marry for a woman.

That's more dishonesty on your part. There's no reason to believe that I as an Orthodox even begin to view my Bible in anyway like you view the Koran.

It's like I'm asking you to prove something from the US Constitution and you demand I draw parallel to a local ordinance of my city council. They are both to do with the law, but their place within the over-all framework is different.

I know Montalban asked me to start a new thread on this - I have no time and hope we can continue from here.

Well, as I've addressed it here, it shows you're wrong again. I'm still waiting for you to address the evidence regarding Muhammed as an example of all time.

Here's yet another Islamic advice site. This time it's on the question of whether a guy can urinate standing up.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/9790

They look to the example of Muhammed and show that although there's NO LAW his example shows it is "Sunnah for him to urinate sitting down" (Ibid.) because Muhammed did so.

But you go on ignoring that. You go on demand I show a "law" about young age - when I never claimed it was the law

 

[Fuzzy]

So what's good is simpy what's deemed good by society?

"Simply?" No.

Influenced by? Yes.



What big teeth you have, grandma.

 

[warghaha]

I was responding to a person demanding I show a 'law' from the Koran when I don't argue that the Koran is like a law book, and I gave an example of a 'teaching' that has been expanded to include a ruling on tobacco

Then it is about the topic. You make an allegation "we're obliged to folllow constitutional law" I refuted it. If you make a statement, it's not off-topic to refute it.

Ok. Here's my quick reply.
The basic is from Sura 4:59
O you who have attained to faith! Pay heed unto God, and pay heed unto the Apostle and unto those from among you who have been entrusted with authority; and if you are at variance over any matter, refer it unto God and the Apostle, if you [truly] believe in God and the Last Day. This is the best [for you], and best in the end.

and Sura 42:38
and who respond to [the call of] their Sustainer and are constant in prayer; and whose rule [in all matters of common concern] is consultation among themselves; and who spend on others out of what We provide for them as sustenance;

But when the leader is going against God's revelation, only then Muslims must not follow (the particular rulings). This is also applied even to Muhammad when he made a wrong decision (in Sura 9:43). It's not like, "hey, the government is evil, so lets go faster than 120km/h on the highway. We're above the law now". The law that's not against God's revelation must be followed.

Again I was addressing something raised

Ok. But when talk about "So, if pressed you could lie about your faith", I think it's not concerning the matters on discussion. So I'll not go further to talk about this in this topic.

*sigh* In Islam all of Muhammed's wives are seen as archetypes. There's no law saying "You can marry an older woman" in the Koran, but in Muhammed's life, given he's considered the ultimate example of behaviour, that he married an older woman menas that it is 'allowed'.

He married a nine year old. It is 'allowed' based on the fact Muhammed did it. Unless there's a specific ruling against it, such as the fact Muhammed had nine wives, but you're allowed only four - if you can maintain them.

Actually, we're allowed to marry when they reached puberty, not when they reached 9 years old.
There's priority in order
-obligatory
-meritorious
-permissible
-reprehensible

Allowed can be ruled out by obligatory.
And the authority can make a decision based on consultation amongst ourselves (Sura 42:38) which Muslim's countries do.

 

[Secundulus]

Having said that, I have not heard of any Muslim women at our time that are legally married at 9 years old.

8-year-old girl asks for divorce in court

SANA’A, April 9 - An eight-year-old girl decided last week to go the Sana’a West Court to prosecute her father, who forced her to marry a 30-year-old man.

My father beat me and told me that I must marry this man, and if I did not, I would be raped and no law and no sheikh in this country would help me.

Nasser said that she was exposed to sexual abuse and domestic violence by her husband. “He used to do bad things to me, and I had no idea as to what a marriage is. I would run from one room to another in order to escape, but in the end he would catch me and beat me and then continued to do what he wanted. I cried so much but no one listened to me. One day I ran away from him and came to the court and talked to them.”

source: http://yementimes.com/article.shtml?i=1145&p=front&a=2

 

[warghaha]

8-year-old girl asks for divorce in court

SANA’A, April 9 - An eight-year-old girl decided last week to go the Sana’a West Court to prosecute her father, who forced her to marry a 30-year-old man.

What about this:
Nasser’s uncle, who does not want to reveal his name, is following the case now as her guardian. According to her uncle, after Muhammed Nasser, the girl's father, lost his job as a garbage truck driver in Hajjah, he became a beggar, and soon after suffered from mental problems.

and this?

Shatha Ali Nasser confirmed that item number 15 in Yemeni civil law reads that “no girl or boy can get married before the age of 15." However, this item was amended in 1998 so parents could make a contract of marriage between their children even if they are under the age of 15. But the husband cannot be intimate with her until she is ready or mature,” said Nasser.“This law is highly dangerous because it brings an end to a young girl’s happiness and future fruitful life. Nojoud did not get married, but she was raped by a 30-year old man.”

 

[Secundulus]

Seems to be a common problem in this ISLAMIC Country.

Nasser confirmed that Nojoud Nasser’s case is not the first of its kind in Yemen, but it is the first time that a girl went to court by herself to ask for a divorce.

Why is that?

Maybe because the perfect man, the man whom all should emulate, Muhammed, did the same.

 

[Montalban]

"Simply?" No.

Influenced by? Yes.

So what ultimately makes it good?

 

[Montalban]

Actually, we're allowed to marry when they reached puberty, not when they reached 9 years old.

Certainly this is the more correct way of putting it. Generally considered it is puberty, and certainly not pegged to a specific year, such as nine years. However this is STILL based on Aisha - with Moslems believing she attained puberty - and thus was not a 'child' and thus Muhammed was not a child molester

There is difference of opinion on marrying someone younger than that at puberty and then allowing her to 'divorce' when she reaches that age.

I still don't know what your point is; what are you objecting to.

You're STILL allowed to marry someone that young. It's not a 'cultural' thing. Nor is it pegged to the 7th Century.

 

[Montalban]

Seems to be a common problem in this ISLAMIC Country.

Nasser confirmed that Nojoud Nasser’s case is not the first of its kind in Yemen, but it is the first time that a girl went to court by herself to ask for a divorce.

Why is that?

Maybe because the perfect man, the man whom all should emulate, Muhammed, did the same.

Even here I don't know what warghaha's objections are meant to show.

 

[Montalban]

The summary of the Aisha debate.

Muhammed was allowed to 'consummate' a marriage with a nine year old. This is harmful, regardless whether they think she consented. It's evidence by the way she grew up - turning on Islam and showing some instability.

Even if it were culturally allowed, Moslems today are still allowed to follow Muhammed's example. It's not legislated "Thou shalt marry a nine year old" but based on Muhammed's example, it's allowed.

Whilst Moslems may be called to follow the laws of the land they certainly would look to change the laws of the land to be more in tune with their own beliefs - which they think are from their god.

Their god just didn't seem to see the harm. Moslems here are yet to show ANY evidence that a person who is just beginning to be physically an adult is AT THAT SAME TIME instantly fully matured mentally and emotionally - and thus really 'ready' to start a family

Instead this example was not from God, but from a sexually dysfunctional man - Muhammed.

 

[Fuzzy]

So what ultimately makes it good?

Individual morality influences its "goodness" as well.

"Good" or "bad" is subjective and varies from person to person.

 

[Montalban]

Individual morality influences its "goodness" as well.

"Good" or "bad" is subjective and varies from person to person.

You said society has an influence. Now you're saying individuals

 

[elwill]

So you're saying the law/allowance by your god is not the best, but rather, the restrictions placed by a modern law is better?

there is no comparisons when there is no contradictions
the best marriage have many factors other than the age of bride

allah not specifyed for us the best age , but he gave us guide lines (9yo not one of them) for making the best family
if modern laws contradict with laws of God , it still means for muslims that the laws of allah still the best

what about you relegion ?
modern laws , all differs from old testament laws , and many christans denyes these laws of OT ( muslims never denyed thier God's law)
So you're saying the law by your god is not humanity, but rather, those laws placed by humans are better?

 

[elwill]

39:4
If Allah had willed to choose a son, He could have chosen what He would of that which He hath created.

i will repeat the verse because yours is incomplete

If Allah desire to take a son to Himself, He will surely choose those He pleases from what He has created. Glory be to Him: He is Allah, the One, the Subduer (of all).

it's meaning, the matter would not have been as they claim. This is a conditional sentence which does not imply that this happened or that it is permitted; indeed, it is impossible. The aim is only to point out the ignorance of their claims

this vese is similar to
Say(o'moahammed) "If the Most Gracious had a son, then I am the first of worshippers.'') (43:81)
Glory to the Lord of the heavens and the earth, the Lord of power, from what they describe. (43:81-82)

All of these Ayat are conditional, and it is permissible to form a conditional sentence referring to something that is impossible if it serves the purposes of the speaker.

 

[Fuzzy]

You said society has an influence. Now you're saying individuals

I'm saying both work together to decide "good" or "bad" in someone's life.

 

[elwill]

They look to the example of Muhammed and show that although there's NO LAW his example shows it is "Sunnah for him to urinate sitting down" (Ibid.) because Muhammed did so.

find for me where muslims sayed that it's "Sunnah for us to marry 9 yo girls because Muhammed(pbuh) did so in his time

our prophet was traveling by camel , you know !! , we not travel in modern days by camel as a sunnah for us because mohammed (pbuh) did so

 

[elwill]

Seems to be a common problem in this ISLAMIC Country.

Nasser confirmed that Nojoud Nasser’s case is not the first of its kind in Yemen, but it is the first time that a girl went to court by herself to ask for a divorce.

Why is that?

Maybe because the perfect man, the man whom all should emulate, Muhammed, did the same.

or may be this man not typical example for right muslims
beside that islam gave rights to the women (even if it was 8yo) to refuse the marriage
so this marriage not acceptable in islam , because his father forced her to it

you taking about common practise from bad muslims in our society
what about raped of childern by priest of catholic churches in vatican , churche knew these practices and do nothing about it