What do we do to prevent another Las Vegas?

[RDKirk]

I also think a can of pepper spray or a taser would be a better option for personal self defense along with maybe learning some martial arts but I wouldn't be against someone owning a pistol if they felt they really needed it.

Actually, no, not at all. At least not unless she strikes before the man makes the slightest menacing move. If she allows him to move first, she's toast regardless of training.

 

[RDKirk]

It also provides the option of instant suicide, accidentally shooting the kids, and inadvertently arming thieves.

I'll go out on a limb and say I think more Americans die by suicide or gun accidents than at the hands of strangers breaking in to do harm.

I won't. But, see, you don't want to address the reasons Americans commit suicide.

And you have no answer whatsoever to how I'm going to protect my fat old self and my fat old wife from predators that I've already personally more than once.

 

[RDKirk]

Your argument is gun control is bad because it takes guns from Good people. More guns provides a safety net for people... In terms of gunshot murders, how's that theory working out in the USA?

Actually, the problem is that it will require police breaking down doors and shooting old people of color in their beds. Because that's how law enforcement in America is.

 

[RDKirk]

Or you could just ban guns

Or we could wave a magic wand. You seem to think it's that easy.

A gun ban has to be executed and enforced. Penalties have to be increased--mandatory sentences. No-knock search and seizure--but be sure to go in with guns blazing, in case the kid sleeping on the sofa is hiding a gat. Like drug laws.

Black men always lose. That's the way law enforcement in the US works.

 

[RDKirk]

While I obviously agree that interventions targeted at behaviour are good, there is evidence that suggests that the guns really are a problem in relation to suicide:

From a Study published in the New England Journal of Medecince in 2008 (authors = Miller and Hemenway)

The empirical evidence linking suicide risk in the United States to the presence of firearms in the home is compelling. There are at least a dozen U.S. case–control studies in the peer-reviewed literature, all of which have found that a gun in the home is associated with an increased risk of suicide. The increase in risk is large, typically 2 to 10 times that in homes without guns, depending on the sample population (e.g., adolescents vs. older adults) and on the way in which the firearms were stored. The association between guns in the home and the risk of suicide is due entirely to a large increase in the risk of suicide by firearm that is not counterbalanced by a reduced risk of nonfirearm suicide. Moreover, the increased risk of suicide is not explained by increased psychopathologic characteristics, suicidal ideation, or suicide attempts among members of gun-owning households.

The relevant finding: Having a gun in the house is a risk factor for suicide that is not, repeat not, counterbalanced by people using a different means to kill themselves if a gun is not around.

But what happens when you correlate gun suicides with the types of persons who use guns for suicide?

 

[RDKirk]

Would he suggest all Christians carry one? (or suggest 25% of Christians carry an average of 4?)

You didn't even attempt to answer my question.

 

[Tanj]

You didn't even attempt to answer my question.

Mate, I am an atheist. How the heck would I know WJWD?? I have absolutely no idea whether Jesus would petition Cesear to ban swords any more than I know whether he'd suggest Christians carry one.

Hence my question, which was in no way a diversion.

 

[Armoured]

I won't. But, see, you don't want to address the reasons Americans commit suicide.

And you have no answer whatsoever to how I'm going to protect my fat old self and my fat old wife from predators that I've already personally more than once.

Asked and answered. Get a security door.

Divergent as you may think, there's more to the issue of gun control than fears/fantasies about "protection".

 

[Obliquinaut]

It is about teaching gun safety, yes accidents still happen, but it is about teaching gun safety and be responsaible with your guns ( which includes more than JUST keeping them from young children, by the way.

You don't have to teach me about gun safety. I had a hunting license and a shot gun and the proper gun safety training all before I could drive a car. That is beside the point.

The fact of the matter is: in a country of 300 million people we have too many guns. Yes most gun owners are responsible but apparently it is impossible for a nation to have this many responsible gun owners with out a significant number of people who do very bad things with guns. And I'm not talking about just gang bangers. I'm talking about the people who help drive the numbers up in terms of successful suicides or domestic abuse. These numbers increase with increasing numbers of guns in the home.

I don't for one second assume that you are going to be one of the statistics. I assume you are a "responsible" gun owner, but you are part of a nationwide obsession with having guns.

The statistics show that guns in the home positively correlate with increases in danger to women due to domestic violence and successful suicides. Our nation has among the highest rates of gun deaths in the developed world and the among the highest rates of gun ownership in the developed world.

No matter how responsible YOU are with your guns it isn't enough. I promise I'd be a very good owner of a critical mass of plutonium. I would keep it in a secure location and I would learn all about the dangers of nuclear radiation and nuclear explosions. So shall we eliminate the laws against people owning critical masses of plutonium?

 

[Obliquinaut]

WWJD, though?

Put up again thy sword into his place. Resist not evil but whoseoever smites you on the left cheek turn to him the right cheek.

Would Jesus petition Caesar to prohibit swords?

Render unto Caeser that which is Caesar's

What do we do to prevent another Las Vegas?

Fewer guns in the USA.

What would Jesus do to prevent another Las Vegas?

Love thine enemy as thyself. Resist not evil but turn the other cheek. Put up again thy sword into his place.

 

[Obliquinaut]

It does provide an option to "Please don't kill me."

IF one is quick enough and skilled enough and not surprised by being attacked.

That's the point. This idea that we are all Bruce Willis in Die Hard walking around ever vigilant and ready to make the right call when the stuff goes down is silly. I don't live my daily life ready at a moment's notice to draw my weapon and make a split second decision on whether to discharge it.

If I was packin' heat right now and I was walking down the street and someone came up to me from behind and said "Gimme your wallet or I'll stab you", I'm pretty darn sure I would NOT have the wherewithal to slickly pull my .45 out, spin around effortlessly and blow the punk away. I'd freeze. Just like almost every other person who is not acting in front a camera with stunt men available.

 

[Obliquinaut]

You realize, don't you, that would become a new war on black men. You realize that, right?

Because that's how America operates.

This is precisely how the war on drugs began.

You know, you might be right on that. But this is the first time I've heard this argument put forward. It sounds like it has the potential to become the new NRA talking point. As if Conservative Republican voters actually cared about Black men...but if it helps distract from the gun debate it's as good as any gambit.

Now the GOP can care all about the mentally ill and black men! Not that they will do anything for either group, but they are a handy foil to make sure we get to keep guns, guns guns.

Oh yeah and while we're at it what's with all these black men kneeling at football games disrespecting our FLAG????

 

[Obliquinaut]

I won't. But, see, you don't want to address the reasons Americans commit suicide.

They commit suicide for the exact same reasons all humans commit suicide. But more AMericans have access to guns which appear to be a statistically more lethal route to suicide. (SOURCE)

And you have no answer whatsoever to how I'm going to protect my fat old self and my fat old wife from predators that I've already personally more than once.

You've used a gun to protect yourself? Can you please elaborate? It would be very useful to know details. Because all I ever hear is the fantasies of gun owners about how cool and calm and dangerous they are to evil doers. It would be interesting to read some first person accounts of how you have had to defend yourself with a gun multiple times (?)

In my 53 years I haven't had to defend myself with a gun and I've lived all over the USA. Not that it wasn't a thought that crossed my mind once while living out in the boonies and some folks were hassling me in the middle of the night. My dad's guns were in the other room. But I'm thankful I never even put more than just a passing thought to that.

 

[dogs4thewin]

You don't have to teach me about gun safety. I had a hunting license and a shot gun and the proper gun safety training all before I could drive a car. That is beside the point.

The fact of the matter is: in a country of 300 million people we have too many guns. Yes most gun owners are responsible but apparently it is impossible for a nation to have this many responsible gun owners with out a significant number of people who do very bad things with guns. And I'm not talking about just gang bangers. I'm talking about the people who help drive the numbers up in terms of successful suicides or domestic abuse. These numbers increase with increasing numbers of guns in the home.

I don't for one second assume that you are going to be one of the statistics. I assume you are a "responsible" gun owner, but you are part of a nationwide obsession with having guns.

The statistics show that guns in the home positively correlate with increases in danger to women due to domestic violence and successful suicides. Our nation has among the highest rates of gun deaths in the developed world and the among the highest rates of gun ownership in the developed world.

No matter how responsible YOU are with your guns it isn't enough. I promise I'd be a very good owner of a critical mass of plutonium. I would keep it in a secure location and I would learn all about the dangers of nuclear radiation and nuclear explosions. So shall we eliminate the laws against people owning critical masses of plutonium?

Actually, I do not own own guns.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Actually, I do not own own guns.

I am with you there. I grew up around them and had one myself, but since I don't hunt anymore I see no need for one. And indeed, I suspect I wouldn't be very good with it in terms of "self-defense".

And that's the point I keep going after: yes it is obvious that a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun. I simply don't think most people are sufficiently trained, skilled or intellectually prepared for all that entails.

That is not a knock on people! It honestly isn't! I honestly DO NOT BELIEVE that most people will be able to respond in a cool and calculating enough manner when a disaster is unfolding to get all the bullets in the right place and at the right time.

Look at the various police shootings we see in the US. These are men and women who have been extensively trained to handle confrontation and use deadly force when necessary, and even then we have miscalculations, miscues, miscommunications and someone winds up dead.

Are most of us, unencumbered by that kind of deadly force training and daily exposure to conflict and danger, going to be prepared for it when it happens IRL? Or are we more likely to mess up? Are we really just thinking that all those action movies are somehow "us" in real life?

 

[mark46]

What is a felony in most jurisdictions? Leaving a gun on the table?

Yes, if a child is injured.

 

[TheBear]

“I’m not sure there is any set of laws that could have prevented it.” - Sen Feinsten

 

[Aldebaran]

No that's exactly it... You don't have control. That's why your engaged in a debate in your country. All those things you mentioned has done nothing to exert control over either the level of gun ownership or the rate of gun related deaths.

Look I can see it's an emotive thing for Americans and your e unlikely to change how things are. So I'm guessing your strategies will be more about rapid response, which btw, is already very good.

I'm sorry, but you are totally wrong about that. The answer to all the questions I asked is "yes", and many of them affect how many people are killed. The age requirement is an example. Selling handguns to 10 year olds who could bring them to school (another regulation that I hadn't mentioned) and do some damage. Clearly, some regulation is needed, but the regulations that actually have a positive effect (and many that don't) are already in place.

 

[SolomonVII]

“I’m not sure there is any set of laws that could have prevented it.” - Sen Feinsten

Sometimes common sense prevails in the most unexpected of places.

As lawmakers and politicians, there simply is no solution in the works or being proposed today that could have prevented this shooting.

Of course there was a time when random mass shootings did not happen in our cultures with any regularity. There may be a cultural solution that delegitimizes the reasons that people have to shoot indiscriminately into crowds in the first place.

 

[Aldebaran]

Would he suggest all Christians carry one? (or suggest 25% of Christians carry an average of 4?)

Luke 22:36
He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.