What do we do to prevent another Las Vegas?

[Aldebaran]

Sure, it is now. It should be murder, though. Because you don't have a right to be "ignorant" about lethal weapons in the hands of children. To me, that's implied malice aforethought. If adults can't manage to lock up guns, perhaps their right to own guns should be denied.

It might be ignorance or negligence, but it isn't malice.

 

[TLK Valentine]

It might be ignorance or negligence, but it isn't malice.

Which is the difference between manslaughter and murder.

 

[Aldebaran]

Which is the difference between manslaughter and murder.

That's right! I'm glad we actually agree on this.

 

[jardiniere]

It might be ignorance or negligence, but it isn't malice.

Or it might be indifference, or apathy, regardless, someone like that should be treated as intentionally hurtful, and if their behavior results in the death of children, treat it as murder.

Malicious indifference works for me. People who own guns should know better.

 

[Aldebaran]

Or it might be indifference, or apathy, regardless, someone like that should be treated as intentionally hurtful, and if their behavior results in the death of children, treat it as murder.

Malicious indifference works for me. People who own guns should know better.

Murder is defined in a specific way as opposed to manslaughter for good reason. The killing of a human being can be done with differing degrees of negligence, which is where manslaughter comes in. Murder also has varying degrees.

 

[Obliquinaut]

There are also plenty of times when someone who thought "Oh, I could never shoot another human being" had a complete change of heart after falling victim to a violent criminal. But I believe it's best to be prepared to do what needs to be done ahead of time rather than after the fact.

Increased gun ownership does not make a nation safer (SOURCE, SOURCE 2)

Guns in the home tend to increase the risk to the women in that home and positively correlates with youth suicide. (SOURCE)

The idea of a Good Guy with a Gun Stopping a Bad Guy with a Gun seems largely unsupported by the numbers (SOURCE)

Again, a blanket judgment against an entire country. Are you part of that group that you're condemning?

I don't own a gun. I find guns fascinating and definitely would have been one of those people who found them fascinating enough to "collect". But I also realize there's little reason for me to have one and apparently according to the numbers it would be far worse for society if I did have them in my home.

BTW, your characterizations of things in general make it sound as if we're just a bunch of children and the government is there as our parents. I'm sure there are plenty in government who would just love it if everyone would accept that viewpoint.

Well, when I see gun owners acting like petulant children who don't want anyone to see their "collection" because it means the scary government man will take all his toys away, or hear about how one has gotta man up and defend yer womern folks from the ebil bad man with your handy six shooter I have to assume that they are largely thinking like children.

Again, I will go with the numbers. Assuming that the NRA will allow the CDC to ever actually STUDY the numbers. You know when someone has NOTHING TO HIDE they ALWAYS hide it.

 

[Obliquinaut]

I didn't know there was an attack to defend against.

Nah, just noting how quickly people who don't actually bother to have a logically supported argument go for logic fallacies.

Then quit listening to the people who are "gun obsessed" and listen to those who fully understand the value of self defense as you say you do. So far, you've taken the views of extremists and applied them to anyone who talks about the subject favorably.

Because it's the extremists driving gun policy in the USA. When the NRA successfully gets legislators to put a BAN on the CDC even investigating gun violence and death in the US you know the loonies have taken over the asylum.

 

[Obliquinaut]

What about it? Bans have been tried. The gun-ban advocates didn't see the results they thought they would.

Except where they do work...like other countries.

Then read the bible and learn for yourself if you don't want to be taught.

I've read the Bible. I used to be a believer as well. My understanding of God was not quite as loosey-goosey as most modern US Conservatives. I never saw a gun-totin', cigar chompin' Jesus stepping in to widen that needle's eye for the wealthy that so many American Conservative Christians see.

You don't have to listen to what anyone here tells you. But at least be teachable or you won't learn even if you try doing it on your own. Also, you're on a Christian forum, so I don't know who you're expecting to hear from.

I have plenty of friends who are Christian who never say the kind of bile I see belched out consistently by Christians on CF. I've seen more darkness in the souls of Christians on CF than I thought was around.

Once again you're making blanket judgements. If you want to live in a society with people obsessed by love and peace, then hang around with those who you feel are like that.

Clearly not many of the Christians on CF, eh?

Just don't be deceived into thinking that those who are rioting and looting and setting buildings on fire while claiming to be about love and peace are actually about love and peace.

LOLOL. Wow. You need to take a logic class at some point. It would help your debating skills

 

[Aldebaran]

Increased gun ownership does not make a nation safer (SOURCE, SOURCE 2)

Guns in the home tend to increase the risk to the women in that home and positively correlates with youth suicide. (SOURCE)

The idea of a Good Guy with a Gun Stopping a Bad Guy with a Gun seems largely unsupported by the numbers (SOURCE)

All are biased sources being historically anti-gun.

I don't own a gun. I find guns fascinating and definitely would have been one of those people who found them fascinating enough to "collect". But I also realize there's little reason for me to have one and apparently according to the numbers it would be far worse for society if I did have them in my home.

Think like an individual rather than someone who lives by the numbers. If people all lived by the numbers, we would junk our cars so we wouldn't pollute the atmosphere. We wouldn't have children because of the overpopulation problem. The list goes on, but you get the idea.

Well, when I see gun owners acting like petulant children who don't want anyone to see their "collection" because it means the scary government man will take all his toys away, or hear about how one has gotta man up and defend yer womern folks from the ebil bad man with your handy six shooter I have to assume that they are largely thinking like children.

You're still stereotyping. You see something in some people and assume it applies to everyone as a group. Racism itself gets started that way.

Again, I will go with the numbers. Assuming that the NRA will allow the CDC to ever actually STUDY the numbers. You know when someone has NOTHING TO HIDE they ALWAYS hide it.

There are people behind those numbers. Perhaps you should consider the people themselves rather than seeing them as numbers. People here in America like the ability to make decisions for themselves rather than being labeled as numbers to be categorized and controlled.

 

[Aldebaran]

Except where they do work...like other countries.

Then let them work in other countries. They haven't worked here.

I've read the Bible. I used to be a believer as well. My understanding of God was not quite as loosey-goosey as most modern US Conservatives. I never saw a gun-totin', cigar chompin' Jesus stepping in to widen that needle's eye for the wealthy that so many American Conservative Christians see.

The sooner you stop the stereotyping, the sooner you'll see more clearly what people actually believe.

I have plenty of friends who are Christian who never say the kind of bile I see belched out consistently by Christians on CF. I've seen more darkness in the souls of Christians on CF than I thought was around.

Then read the bible again and abide by what you see written rather than basing your belief of Christ on what you see on this forum. Be discerning.

Clearly not many of the Christians on CF, eh?

If you don't think so, then you're always free to leave this site. People are free to stay or go as they please. But hanging around here to complain about Christians based on your stereotyping of them won't help you.

 

[Obliquinaut]

All are biased sources being historically anti-gun.

Even the NIH????

Think like an individual rather than someone who lives by the numbers

Sorry, a PhD in the sciences and 20+ years of experience in Research and Development will do that to a person.

If people all lived by the numbers, we would junk our cars so we wouldn't pollute the atmosphere. We wouldn't have children because of the overpopulation problem. The list goes on, but you get the idea.

No, no I don't. Again, perhaps my education and career being largely data and statistics driven make me prone to relying on data and statistics to support my position.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Then read the bible again and abide by what you see written rather than basing your belief of Christ on what you see on this forum. Be discerning.

LOL!

If you don't think so, then you're always free to leave this site.

And pass up debating against people who seem to espouse socially corrosive concepts that they can't even really justify? No way!

People are free to stay or go as they please. But hanging around here to complain about Christians based on your stereotyping of them won't help you.

You don't get it do you? Almost all of my friends are Christians. People whose faith I actually honor! I even helped cover costs for a friend's recent missionary trip to Asia!!!

I don't consider many of the "ravening wolves in sheep's clothing" on this site to be espousing something I think is healthy for society. I don't mind if you have your faith. I would never want you to give up your faith if it brings you comfort. But if you wish to leverage your faith to drive public policy that impacts others not of your faith you will have people like me, who have read your Bible, who used to be believers, standing up for what is right as we see it.

I believe in right and wrong. And I believe there are corrosive philosophies that are often justified by the pious that are simply wrong. I will speak out against those.

 

[drjean]

Probably because there are SO MANY uses for them. Hunting is a large part of gun ownership, and there are different types of guns for different types of hunting. Small game, large game, and any kind of bird hunting necessitates 3 types of guns at minimum. When self defense comes into the picture, then so do handguns.

AND don't forget the potential for a wayward government to take over its people when they have no way to defend themselves! Obviously those who do not understand the difference between murder and manslaughter, between God given rights and people's opinions, will take over and push their intolerance upon believers all the time demanding we tolerate their godless views.

I'm out of this thread now. No amount of goading will get me back. God's Word says that the "natural man understands not the things of God for they are foolishness to him and neither can he (ever) know them because they are spiritually discerned.

I thank GOD that with all the "humanness" of our founding fathers, God used them to make this a believing nation. Just because people believe we are not doesn't make it their way; there were many (wrong) witnesses to the Titanic sinking...

 

[TLK Valentine]

That's right! I'm glad we actually agree on this.

So 8 years instead of 20. Fine by me.

 

[Obliquinaut]

AND don't forget the potential for a wayward government to take over its people when they have no way to defend themselves!

Serious question here: do you honestly think the world's largest military complete with Tomahawk Cruise missles and nuclear weapons galore would give one whit about your 12 gauge shotgun?

Obviously those who do not understand the difference between murder and manslaughter, between God given rights and people's opinions, will take over and push their intolerance upon believers all the time demanding we tolerate their godless views.

God wants you to have more guns?

 

[Zoii]

What you're saying ignores the controls and prohibitions already in place.

You mean no controls obviously. If you had control you wouldn't have the insane statistics that the USA does. And you just told me before that controls shouldn't be in place. Are you saying now that the USA does try and control it? Your being very self contradictory which of course it's exactly what the gun lobby is

 

[dogs4thewin]

Sure, it is now. It should be murder, though. Because you don't have a right to be "ignorant" about lethal weapons in the hands of children. To me, that's implied malice aforethought. If adults can't manage to lock up guns, perhaps their right to own guns should be denied.

Murder (other than felony murder) usually requires intent. That is to say that the killer WANTED the person dead. If not, then usually it is not murder MAYBE second degree murder depending on your state.

 

[dogs4thewin]

It might be ignorance or negligence, but it isn't malice.

thank you Malice means it is done with the intent to hurt people or their property. You cannot tell me that most of those parents, despite their very poor judgement acted with malice.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Or it might be indifference, or apathy, regardless, someone like that should be treated as intentionally hurtful, and if their behavior results in the death of children, treat it as murder.

Malicious indifference works for me. People who own guns should know better.

Yes, they should but poor judgement does NOT equal that is what murder takes not should have known better not poor judgement. Heck did you know that sometimes if someone honestly DOES what appears to be murder drunk or high many times they can get a reduced sentence (if they were not committing ANOTHER felony at the time of the murder) because they lacked the ability to have the required intent for first degree murder? That is WAY different than a parent who granted uses very poor judgement in allowing a toddler to access a firearm.

 

[dogs4thewin]

You mean no controls obviously. If you had control you wouldn't have the insane statistics that the USA does. And you just told me before that controls shouldn't be in place. Are you saying now that the USA does try and control it? Your being very self contradictory which of course it's exactly what the gun lobby is

There ARE controls what is debated is what kinds of controls there should be, but they do exist For example, it is a federal crime for convicted felons (unless they have been pardoned) to even own guns or even amo within their OWN homes. Some states even say that NO ONE can have guns in the home if a convicted felon lives there. There are laws that prevent the mentally ill ( assuming that their illness is documented) from having guns, same with drug addicts and many crimes of violence ( even if they do not rise to the level of a felony). There ARE controls.