What do we do to prevent another Las Vegas?

[Aldebaran]

And...???

AND....it didn't involve machine guns, bump stocks, easy access to guns, certain types of ammo, high capacity magazines, or even a single shot being fired. Again, if someone wants to kill, they'll do it with whatever means they can find to do it with.

 

[Aldebaran]

I agree the US is largely safe (certainly in all the areas I've lived in and I've lived in the Midwest, Northeast, Deep South, Southwest and now Pacific Northwest. Which confuses me why SO MANY Americans feel the need to have a gun.

Probably because there are SO MANY uses for them. Hunting is a large part of gun ownership, and there are different types of guns for different types of hunting. Small game, large game, and any kind of bird hunting necessitates 3 types of guns at minimum. When self defense comes into the picture, then so do handguns.

 

[Aldebaran]

Your logic is, don't control or prohibit guns, because people will just work around it. I guess your advocating that we should not have drug laws... Why have drug laws when people will do what they need to, to access drugs..... Why have child pornography laws when people just continue to find access to it.

What you're saying ignores the controls and prohibitions already in place.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Probably because there are SO MANY uses for them. Hunting is a large part of gun ownership, and there are different types of guns for different types of hunting. Small game, large game, and any kind of bird hunting necessitates 3 types of guns at minimum. When self defense comes into the picture, then so do handguns.

It's the self-defense rationale that I question. I grew up in a hunting family. Had a gun and a hunting license before I could drive. Of course I also grew up in a family that didn't obsess on guns as if they were some magical totem.

The whole rationale that we are sold on today that Americans NEEED guns to protect themselves sounds like a post-hoc excuse. How many Americans will actually "protect themselves"? The numbers show that guns in the home are positively correlated to higher rates of gun deaths (including suicides etc.) than they are in terms of self-protection.

I think Americans have an unhealthy relationship with guns and part of the problem is they are sold on this cowboy fantasy of somehow being John Wayne or the Man Who Shot Liberty Valence.

In the process we've loaded up our society with so many guns that it statistically leads to more guns available to do damage with. Either through theft of those guns, loss of the guns or the unfortunate accidents and suicides that happen when we have guns all around us.

Frankly I think Americans almost to a person lost their right to think they should own a gun. With dangerous materials comes severe limitations on how much "Freedom" one has to play with those materials. You can't own a critical mass of plutonium. Why should you be able to own guns without being a registry and having your actions tracked for the luxury of enjoying guns?

 

[Obliquinaut]

Well, of course people in general are afraid of those with firearms, and regardless of the #fakenews agenda to make all snowflakes

Congrats on that sentence! You almost hit the "Trump Trifecta"! And it looks like just another Trump-Sheeple who thinks Trump's silliness passes for insightful commentary. Good on ya!

be afraid of good government, the truth is the truth. Where there are more firearms being carried by law abiding citizen patriots, there are fewer casualties. Not believing this doesn't make it untrue.

So you're just going to ignore the studies some of us have posted here because you don't like it when something goes against your perceptions? So much for "The truth is the truth"!

The REAL TRUTH IS the solution to mass murders is to help the mass murderers find Jesus first.

Yeah, yeah, that's gonna do it. You DO realize that America is one of the most religious societies in the developed world, right? Yet we have among the highest rates of gun violence. Certainly compared to far more secular governments here in the West.

But I bet there's some way to monkey with those numbers too!

Gimme a break. All this talk of Jesus this and Jesus that while conveniently ignoring Jesus own words is risible at best.

"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Maybe it's the Religious Right who needs to find Jesus. Because they seem to be missing him when it comes to GUNS and MONEY.

 

[Aldebaran]

It's the self-defense rationale that I question. I grew up in a hunting family. Had a gun and a hunting license before I could drive. Of course I also grew up in a family that didn't obsess on guns as if they were some magical totem.

I think this is the case for most families as well. The main reason they get "obsessed about", as some would say, is when the subject of bans come up and the politicians start talking about how their proposed solution to a mass shooting is only a "first step". Anyone who's been around for 30 or so years understand that what they mean is that they intend to keep going with more regulations, more bans--until the firearms that pretty much any family might own start being the ones affected.

The whole rationale that we are sold on today that Americans NEEED guns to protect themselves sounds like a post-hoc excuse. How many Americans will actually "protect themselves"? The numbers show that guns in the home are positively correlated to higher rates of gun deaths (including suicides etc.) than they are in terms of self-protection.

It's usually estimated that they're used in one way or another for protection about 1 million to as many as 2.5 million times each year.

I think Americans have an unhealthy relationship with guns and part of the problem is they are sold on this cowboy fantasy of somehow being John Wayne or the Man Who Shot Liberty Valence.

Or simply as someone who doesn't want to be helpless when confronted by a violent criminal.

In the process we've loaded up our society with so many guns that it statistically leads to more guns available to do damage with. Either through theft of those guns, loss of the guns or the unfortunate accidents and suicides that happen when we have guns all around us.

That's only a generality. Nobody has "loaded up society" with anything. People are individuals who buy individual guns for their individual needs.

Frankly I think Americans almost to a person lost their right to think they should own a gun. With dangerous materials comes severe limitations on how much "Freedom" one has to play with those materials. You can't own a critical mass of plutonium. Why should you be able to own guns without being a registry and having your actions tracked for the luxury of enjoying guns?

Not sure how to respond to the idea that we've lost our right to think anything. I'll simply say that I disagree with you, and that I'm in good company.

 

[Aldebaran]

Yeah, yeah, that's gonna do it. You DO realize that America is one of the most religious societies in the developed world, right? Yet we have among the highest rates of gun violence. Certainly compared to far more secular governments here in the West.

Finding Jesus and being "religious" are separate issues.

"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Maybe it's the Religious Right who needs to find Jesus. Because they seem to be missing him when it comes to GUNS and MONEY.

A smite on the cheek is not the same as rape, murder, home invasion, violent assault, etc.
That's why Jesus didn't say, "Whoever murders/rapes your wife, let him murder/rape your daughter also".

 

[TLK Valentine]

Finding Jesus and being "religious" are separate issues.

The point remains that more Jesus here clearly isn't going to help.

A smite on the cheek is not the same as rape, murder, home invasion, violent assault, etc.
That's why Jesus didn't say, "Whoever murders/rapes your wife, let him murder/rape your daughter also".

Ah -- the problem is that we're not taking Jesus literally enough! He was only referring to smiting on the cheek; there's absolutely nothing that can extrapolated from his words.

Similarly, when Jesus referred to the Pharisees as a "brood of vipers," (Matthew 12:34) they were, in fact, actual snakes. Don't read too much into it; you might get the wrong idea.

 

[Aldebaran]

The point remains that more Jesus here clearly isn't going to help.

It's not clear if it hasn't happened.

Ah -- the problem is that we're not taking Jesus literally enough! He was only referring to smiting on the cheek; there's absolutely nothing that can extrapolated from his words.

Similarly, when Jesus referred to the Pharisees as a "brood of vipers," (Matthew 12:34) they were, in fact, actual snakes. Don't read too much into it; you might get the wrong idea.

If you don't believe what Jesus says, don't try to rewrite His words for those of us that do.
Do you believe that "smite on the cheek" is the same as rape and murder?

 

[Obliquinaut]

It's usually estimated that they're used in one way or another for protection about 1 million to as many as 2.5 million times each year.

Like to see that citation.

Or simply as someone who doesn't want to be helpless when confronted by a violent criminal.

I asked another person on this forum if they actually thought they could kill another human being. To see their bullets blow up a human head right in front of them. The reason I ask is because I've seen plenty of interviews with people after war who, even when they were actively being shot at by enemy soldiers, seemed to be horrified when they finally killed an enemy soldier. It seems like something that is not very easy to do. And when you take someone who is just a regular Joe or Jane Sixpack, how likely is it that they will 1) be able to think quickly enough to eliminate the threat 2) accurately eliminate a real threat (and not accidentally shoot someone who isn't a threat) 3) be able to deal with the anguish of having done that.

That's why I think it's a fantasy for 99.9% of Americans who think they will be able to defend themselves with a gun.

Not sure how to respond to the idea that we've lost our right to think anything. I'll simply say that I disagree with you, and that I'm in good company.

We are a nation made up of people who have an unrealistic fantasy of how effective we will be in protecting ourselves with guns, born and raised on too many Arnold Swarzennegger movies thinking we are super-beings. In reality we have somehow wound up with a pathological relationship with guns.

We are like a bunch of toddlers who can't get along while playing with the blocks. We lose our right to have access to the blocks if we can't learn how to play well with others.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Finding Jesus and being "religious" are separate issues.

But logic fallacies never miss! Sorry, you can't rely on the "No True Scotsman" defense.

A smite on the cheek is not the same as rape, murder, home invasion, violent assault, etc.
That's why Jesus didn't say, "Whoever murders/rapes your wife, let him murder/rape your daughter also".

Ummm, yeah. That's EXACTLY the limitations Jesus put there in the very Bible itself! I just forgot my magic goggles to read the invisible ink He wrote in.

Look, don't get me wrong, I'm not a Christian and I fully understand the value of self-defense. But I'm tired of people somehow telling us we all need to find Jesus...but that Jesus looks a lot like a money and gun obsessed American conservative.

But I understand: the wide path is the easy one and that's probably exactly where you find Jesus.

 

[Obliquinaut]

It's not clear if it hasn't happened.

Same with a gun ban, right?

If you don't believe what Jesus says, don't try to rewrite His words for those of us that do.
Do you believe that "smite on the cheek" is the same as rape and murder?

You are correct. I am not a Christian and as such I should allow Christians to tell me exactly what Jesus meant. And as Christians are constantly in need of writing legislation that control EVERYONE ELSE'S LIFE we must accept that THEIR VALUES are OUR VALUES.

I should clarify: I'd prefer to live in a society with people obsessed by love and peace as opposed to a society obsessed by guns and defense. Perhaps Christians scare me with their love of guns and swift punching fists of justice.

 

[TLK Valentine]

If you don't believe what Jesus says, don't try to rewrite His words for those of us that do.
Do you believe that "smite on the cheek" is the same as rape and murder?

I believe that according to the Bible, Jesus was beaten, scourged, marched through the streets with a crown of thorns, stripped naked, nailed to a cross, and left to die over a period of approximately three hours... and called on God, not to save him, or to punish those who did it to him, but to forgive them. Luke 23:34, ICYMI.

So to him, yeah, I think he was speaking in pretty broad terms on the whole "turn the other cheek," thing. Say what you will about him -- he at least practiced what he preached. I can respect that.

I also believe Jesus had a habit of speaking symbolically, using figurative language, else his parables would've been meaningless filler. So for example, I believe that when Jesus also said "He who lives by the sword will die by it" (Matthew 26:52) he wasn't just warning about swords in particular.

Is that why you don't carry a sword, Alde?

 

[mark46]

The trouble is that that is NOT murder under the law. Involuntary manslaughter is what it is NOT murder just because someone died at the hands of another does NOT make it murder under the law.

What is your point? Convicting folks of manslaughter would be a major step forward.

 

[mark46]

This would happen more if all guns were registered and there was a nationwide police data base of guns.

It would help if people would report their guns stolen like cars. Just because a gun I own was used in a particular crime that does not mean that I was the one behind the trigger. Just like just because my car was involved in a hit and run or was seen leaving the scene of a suspected crime does not mean that I was driving or even that I knew it happened.

 

[Aldebaran]

Like to see that citation.

Myth #3 - "2.5 million defensive gun uses each year can't be accurate" | Buckeye Firearms Association

I asked another person on this forum if they actually thought they could kill another human being. To see their bullets blow up a human head right in front of them. The reason I ask is because I've seen plenty of interviews with people after war who, even when they were actively being shot at by enemy soldiers, seemed to be horrified when they finally killed an enemy soldier. It seems like something that is not very easy to do. And when you take someone who is just a regular Joe or Jane Sixpack, how likely is it that they will 1) be able to think quickly enough to eliminate the threat 2) accurately eliminate a real threat (and not accidentally shoot someone who isn't a threat) 3) be able to deal with the anguish of having done that.

That's why I think it's a fantasy for 99.9% of Americans who think they will be able to defend themselves with a gun.

There are also plenty of times when someone who thought "Oh, I could never shoot another human being" had a complete change of heart after falling victim to a violent criminal. But I believe it's best to be prepared to do what needs to be done ahead of time rather than after the fact.

We are a nation made up of people who have an unrealistic fantasy of how effective we will be in protecting ourselves with guns, born and raised on too many Arnold Swarzennegger movies thinking we are super-beings. In reality we have somehow wound up with a pathological relationship with guns.

Once again, you're judging an entire nation. It's a good thing our laws are written to protect individual rights rather than making blanket assumptions about everyone as a whole.

We are like a bunch of toddlers who can't get along while playing with the blocks. We lose our right to have access to the blocks if we can't learn how to play well with others.

Again, a blanket judgment against an entire country. Are you part of that group that you're condemning?
BTW, your characterizations of things in general make it sound as if we're just a bunch of children and the government is there as our parents. I'm sure there are plenty in government who would just love it if everyone would accept that viewpoint.

 

[pat34lee]

Let's just make murder against the law. That should do it.
At least if murderers cared about any law that was passed.

 

[Aldebaran]

But logic fallacies never miss! Sorry, you can't rely on the "No True Scotsman" defense.

I didn't know there was an attack to defend against.

Ummm, yeah. That's EXACTLY the limitations Jesus put there in the very Bible itself! I just forgot my magic goggles to read the invisible ink He wrote in.

He said what he said. Sometimes people see what isn't there.

Look, don't get me wrong, I'm not a Christian and I fully understand the value of self-defense. But I'm tired of people somehow telling us we all need to find Jesus...but that Jesus looks a lot like a money and gun obsessed American conservative.

But I understand: the wide path is the easy one and that's probably exactly where you find Jesus.

Then quit listening to the people who are "gun obsessed" and listen to those who fully understand the value of self defense as you say you do. So far, you've taken the views of extremists and applied them to anyone who talks about the subject favorably.

 

[Aldebaran]

Same with a gun ban, right?

What about it? Bans have been tried. The gun-ban advocates didn't see the results they thought they would. Same goes for waiting periods.
Besides, when bans and regulations are proposed, they are done so loosely that bans against other things than intended end up being enacted. This type of open-ended language in bills allows them to go further, and it's a good reason to keep an eye on what legislators are doing. Here's an example of that which is relevant to today: https://www.feinstein.senate.gov/pu...71B98A52.automatic-gunfire-prevention-act.pdf

You are correct. I am not a Christian and as such I should allow Christians to tell me exactly what Jesus meant. And as Christians are constantly in need of writing legislation that control EVERYONE ELSE'S LIFE we must accept that THEIR VALUES are OUR VALUES.

Then read the bible and learn for yourself if you don't want to be taught. You don't have to listen to what anyone here tells you. But at least be teachable or you won't learn even if you try doing it on your own. Also, you're on a Christian forum, so I don't know who you're expecting to hear from.

I should clarify: I'd prefer to live in a society with people obsessed by love and peace as opposed to a society obsessed by guns and defense. Perhaps Christians scare me with their love of guns and swift punching fists of justice.

Once again you're making blanket judgements. If you want to live in a society with people obsessed by love and peace, then hang around with those who you feel are like that. Just don't be deceived into thinking that those who are rioting and looting and setting buildings on fire while claiming to be about love and peace are actually about love and peace.

 

[jardiniere]

The trouble is that that is NOT murder under the law. Involuntary manslaughter is what it is NOT murder just because someone died at the hands of another does NOT make it murder under the law.

Sure, it is now. It should be murder, though. Because you don't have a right to be "ignorant" about lethal weapons in the hands of children. To me, that's implied malice aforethought. If adults can't manage to lock up guns, perhaps their right to own guns should be denied.