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What do we do to prevent another Las Vegas?

dogs4thewin

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Most courts would find a parent liable if a child were injured because a gun wasn't locked up. In many jurisdiction, it is required that guns be locked up if children are in the house.
that was my point. I have no problem with parents being held liable for the acts of their very young children, but to say that that is a reason for more gun regulation is where I have an issue. Moreover, even in those jurisdictions really as long as you keep them out of reach until such time as the child is old enough to learn gun safety how is the government going to enforce that? ( Sense the 4th amendment forbids unreasonable search and seizure. This means that the law could not simply go into a house with young children to search for guns. If they did even if they WERE to find some the case would legally have to be thrown out of court.
 
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mark46

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You could make bump stocks illegal...but there are other ways of doing the same thing without them. You could make physic exams and background checks mandatory yearly. You could make dealers report someone buying more than 2 high powered weapons in the same place. But all of this will infringe on the rights of the people. These are not the answers, I think the church in general has dropped the ball with our country and most likely around the world in regards to teaching morals to the populace.

The new law would not make "bump stocks illegal", it would make all machine guns illegal, as well as all kits that make other guns into machine guns (automatic weapons)/
 
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dogs4thewin

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Nonsense.

We ban grenade launchers. We ban machine guns. Do you think these laws are wrong?
I said we cannot ban something just because it is dangerous. I did not say that nothing at all should be banned.
 
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mark46

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that was my point. I have no problem with parents being held liable for the acts of their very young children, but to say that that is a reason for more gun regulation is where I have an issue. Moreover, even in those jurisdictions really as long as you keep them out of reach until such time as the child is old enough to learn gun safety how is the government going to enforce that? ( Sense the 4th amendment forbids unreasonable search and seizure. This means that the law could not simply go into a house with young children to search for guns. If they did even if they WERE to find some the case would legally have to be thrown out of court.
Enfor
Some do some do not. Not everyone who supports the idea of the second amendment opposes any and all gun control.
I agree. Many (most?) in Congress have no problem with sensible gun regulation, recognizing that gun regulation does NOT violate the 2nd Amendment.
 
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dogs4thewin

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Enfor

I agree. Many (most?) in Congress have no problem with sensible gun regulation, recognizing that gun regulation does NOT violate the 2nd Amendment.
The question is what type of regulation it has become PAINFULLY clear that that is a HOT BUTTON issue.
 
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Faithful Scuff

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The new law would not make "bump stocks illegal", it would make all machine guns illegal, as well as all kits that make other guns into machine guns (automatic weapons)/
Then you'll have to make belt loops illegal and shoulder straps as well. I agree bump stocks should be illegal on a federal level but that won't fix or stop someone from doing the same thing.

I believe that full auto weapons are illegal so we are talking bout kits and devices to modify a semi auto.

BTW you can make a hand gun fire as a full auto with out modifications.
 
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dogs4thewin

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Then you'll have to make belt loops illegal and shoulder straps as well. I agree bump stocks should be illegal on a federal level but that won't fix or stop someone from doing the same thing.

I believe that full auto weapons are illegal so we are talking bout kits and devices to modify a semi auto.

BTW you can make a hand gun fire as a full auto with out modifications.
I think FULLY auto guns should be illegal which they are. I am somewhat on the fence as it relates to AK-47s beyond that I am second amendment all the way.
 
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Barzel

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Or Orlando? Or San Bernardino? Or Columbine? Or Newtown?

Political action? Legal action? Social action? Personal action?

Or should we even bother? Do we simply resign ourselves to going through these motions again in another 6 months or so? Or are we counting on these kinds of incidents to just go away?

Thoughts?
You can't get rid of firearms. Nevermind should, you can't do it. Outlaw them, and outlaws will ignore the law. Attempt to confiscate them, and you'll be deadlocked in legal battles. Even if you change the laws, you'll need people with guns to confiscate guns from other people, and you will have a civil war on your hands. When the war is over, you'll have a lot of dead people, and the living people you don't want having guns will still have them.

If anyone challenges the above statements, I invite you to propose ways around any of those hurdles.

At best, you can only minimize risk. I would agree with those who say we need a better mental healthcare system, but that won't rid us of gun violence. The keyword in that phrase--gun violence--is violence. It is true that if you somehow took away all guns from citizens, they would resort to other means of violence.

Of 12,523 homicides in 2013 examined by the FBI, 8,454 (67.5%) were committed with firearms. The remaining 4,069 were done with a non-firearm method, save for a possible 850 (0.07%) where the weapon was not indicated (source). Firearms are certainly a popular weapon for homicide, but far from the only weapon.

Most of the non-firearm weapons used in homicides have other uses. Some murders are committed with hammers, baseball bats, and other blunt instruments. Some are committed with rope, available in multiple varieties at your local hardware store. Even murders committed with explosives may be committed with blasting materials used in mining or demolition.

Shall we then outlaw all potential weapons? Of course not. You wouldn't allow your arms to be removed, and there are so many potential weapons in any given location, we would never get it all, not to mention we'd never submit to the removal of those objects just because they pose a potential threat. The fact is, we need hammers and bats and rope and explosives.

We also need firearms, because firearms exist. Outlaws will get them, so it is necessary for lawful citizens to meet that threat with equal or superior force. We build our military on the idea that where those who wish to do us harm obtain a weapon, we will obtain a better weapon, and train more proficiently with it. We need people to stand in our defense.

We could make it so only the police and the military own firearms, but are we willing to live in a police state? Do we want soldiers and law enforcement on every corner just in case? Even then, that still doesn't eliminate the fact that an outlaw motivated to obtain a firearm will get one, and authorities may or may not intervene before the outlaw can use their gun.

By now it's clear no venue is safe from an attack. Schools, churches, clubs, sporting arenas, and military bases have all been the scene of attacks. That, and more. In most cases, those shootings occurred in places where the legal carry of a firearm was restricted or prohibited. Even on a military base where guns were readily available, they were not readily available enough to prevent an attack.

If you can't get rid of guns, and outlaws will obtain them, how do we defend ourselves? I would point you back to how we establish our military. The enemy obtains a weapon, so we obtain a better weapon, and train more proficiently with it. Those who do not wish to carry firearms are, in the event of an attack, protected by those who do carry firearms. If your house is invaded, you call the police, who come armed and willing to protect you.

We need less fear of weaponry, and a more sensible approach to defense. People need to face reality that in a world with guns, the possibility exists to either carry a firearm and defend with it, or be defended by those who do carry them. In events like Las Vegas, I don't see where handguns would have helped. It was an exception to a rule that most shooters are in close proximity to their victims.

No solution will be perfect, but we can even the odds. I once saw a man carrying a rifle after the D.C. Beltway attacks. In the event of a long range attack, a rifle is a sensible weapon for defense. In most cases, a handgun would suffice to eliminate a threat. Some shooters, if not all, would think twice before attacking a group if they know or reasonably suspect there will be returned fire.

In short, yes, we should seek to improve mental healthcare, to crack down on illegal firearm sales, and to pray for God to work to intervene, but since firearms will always be a constant, we should structure our laws and public spaces to allow firearms. We should not disarm the intended victims of attacks for fear they will be attacked, but allow them the freedom to respond to attacks in self-defense.
 
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dogs4thewin

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You can't get rid of firearms. Nevermind should, you can't do it. Outlaw them, and outlaws will ignore the law. Attempt to confiscate them, and you'll be deadlocked in legal battles. Even if you change the laws, you'll need people with guns to confiscate guns from other people, and you will have a civil war on your hands. When the war is over, you'll have a lot of dead people, and the living people you don't want having guns will still have them.

If anyone challenges the above statements, I invite you to propose ways around any of those hurdles.

At best, you can only minimize risk. I would agree with those who say we need a better mental healthcare system, but that won't rid us of gun violence. The keyword in that phrase--gun violence--is violence. It is true that if you somehow took away all guns from citizens, they would resort to other means of violence.

Of 12,523 homicides in 2013 examined by the FBI, 8,454 (67.5%) were committed with firearms. The remaining 4,069 were done with a non-firearm method, save for a possible 850 (0.07%) where the weapon was not indicated (source). Firearms are certainly a popular weapon for homicide, but far from the only weapon.

Most of the non-firearm weapons used in homicides have other uses. Some murders are committed with hammers, baseball bats, and other blunt instruments. Some are committed with rope, available in multiple varieties at your local hardware store. Even murders committed with explosives may be committed with blasting materials used in mining or demolition.

Shall we then outlaw all potential weapons? Of course not. You wouldn't allow your arms to be removed, and there are so many potential weapons in any given location, we would never get it all, not to mention we'd never submit to the removal of those objects just because they pose a potential threat. The fact is, we need hammers and bats and rope and explosives.

We also need firearms, because firearms exist. Outlaws will get them, so it is necessary for lawful citizens to meet that threat with equal or superior force. We build our military on the idea that where those who wish to do us harm obtain a weapon, we will obtain a better weapon, and train more proficiently with it. We need people to stand in our defense.

We could make it so only the police and the military own firearms, but are we willing to live in a police state? Do we want soldiers and law enforcement on every corner just in case? Even then, that still doesn't eliminate the fact that an outlaw motivated to obtain a firearm will get one, and authorities may or may not intervene before the outlaw can use their gun.

By now it's clear no venue is safe from an attack. Schools, churches, clubs, sporting arenas, and military bases have all been the scene of attacks. That, and more. In most cases, those shootings occurred in places where the legal carry of a firearm was restricted or prohibited. Even on a military base where guns were readily available, they were not readily available enough to prevent an attack.

If you can't get rid of guns, and outlaws will obtain them, how do we defend ourselves? I would point you back to how we establish our military. The enemy obtains a weapon, so we obtain a better weapon, and train more proficiently with it. Those who do not wish to carry firearms are, in the event of an attack, protected by those who do carry firearms. If your house is invaded, you call the police, who come armed and willing to protect you.

We need less fear of weaponry, and a more sensible approach to defense. People need to face reality that in a world with guns, the possibility exists to either carry a firearm and defend with it, or be defended by those who do carry them. In events like Las Vegas, I don't see where handguns would have helped. It was an exception to a rule that most shooters are in close proximity to their victims.

No solution will be perfect, but we can even the odds. I once saw a man carrying a rifle after the D.C. Beltway attacks. In the event of a long range attack, a rifle is a sensible weapon for defense. In most cases, a handgun would suffice to eliminate a threat. Some shooters, if not all, would think twice before attacking a group if they know or reasonably suspect there will be returned fire.

In short, yes, we should seek to improve mental healthcare, to crack down on illegal firearm sales, and to pray for God to work to intervene, but since firearms will always be a constant, we should structure our laws and public spaces to allow firearms. We should not disarm the intended victims of attacks for fear they will be attacked, but allow them the freedom to respond to attacks in self-defense.
thank you. You made a GREAT point when you said MOST attacks happened in areas where legal firearms were not. Additionally, you are right it does no good or little good to focus regulations on the EXCEPTION such as firing at long range over close range as you will not prevent much that way anyway.
 
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Faithful Scuff

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If bump stocks weren't used in Las Vegas, would fewer have died?
I would have to say most likely. More time between shots, it may not have been mistaken for fireworks and people may have reacted sooner saving more lives. Although all this is speculation one will never know as the very same situation will never occur, I say this as IF there is a next time it has already happen and people hopefully will react faster.
 
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rambot

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I said we cannot ban something just because it is dangerous. I did not say that nothing at all should be banned.
That's true! Sometimes y'all ban things that aren't dangerous at all; like kinder eggs.
As a sidebar though: I think there ARE things that are banned from usage "just because it's dangerous". Stuff like radioactive material; pretty sure that's banned.
 
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mark46

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I think FULLY auto guns should be illegal which they are. I am somewhat on the fence as it relates to AK-47s beyond that I am second amendment all the way.

I think that it where should be, prohibiting automatic and convertible to automatic guns, and debating AK47's (semi-automatics). Personally, I would like us to ban AK-47's. If hunters need AK47s to kill deer, then they need to find another hobby.
 
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mark46

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That's true! Sometimes y'all ban things that aren't dangerous at all; like kinder eggs.
As a sidebar though: I think there ARE things that are banned from usage "just because it's dangerous". Stuff like radioactive material; pretty sure that's banned.
Should things that are dangerous that have no legitimate use be banned? nuclear weapons, radioactive isotopes, grenade launchers, tanks, machine guns, machine gun kits, semi-automatic weapons.
 
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Barzel

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I think that it where should be, prohibiting automatic and convertible to automatic guns, and debating AK47's (semi-automatics). Personally, I would like us to ban AK-47's. If hunters need AK47s to kill deer, then they need to find another hobby.
It seems as if you don't realize what an AK-47 is. It's a Soviet model assault rifle. It can switch between semi-automatic and full automatic fire at, well, the flick of a switch. AK-47s sold to civilians are not capable of full auto, making them similar to any other sporting rifle. I have never heard of a hunter legally hunting an animal with a weapon capable of fully automatic fire.
 
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